Lawyer Pay
$200 K Pay for Big-Firm Midlevel Associates
Posted Aug 30, 2007 4:38 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
Third-year associates working at the 200 largest law firms take home median pay of $200,000, but a lot of them need the cash to help pay off large student loans.
American Lawyer reports that 81 percent of midlevel associates at Am Law 200 firms owe money for student loans, and 60 percent of them owe at least $50,000.
Total median compensation was $222,000 for fourth-year associates and $245,000 for fifth years. The figures include bonuses.
The legal magazine’s breakdown of median salaries (sub. req.) by city shows New York firms pay the most. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz pays its third-years the most: $190,000 in salaries and $190,000 in median bonuses.
“Of course, in New York, a city where a 400-square-foot studio can sell for a half-million bucks, it's hard to argue that associates are actually getting a better deal than their counterparts in other parts of the country,” the magazine writes. “Using a simple cost-of-living calculation, the median pay for a third-year in Manhattan—$210,000—goes about as far as $99,000 does in Atlanta."
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Comments
Jesse Hoffman
Aug 31, 2007 9:42 AM CST
I’m a law student about to enter the legal work force for the first time, so I don’t have the same perspective as a seasoned attorney reading this article. Summer Clerkship pay, as well as associate pay levels are making headlines in the ABA Journal pretty regularly now. So I’m curious how unusual the sallary growth really is. I’ve always had the impression that lawyers at big firms have historically made a high sallary. Once you’ve adjusted for inflation, how much higher is a large firm sallary today than it was 50 years ago?
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Barry Sanders
Aug 31, 2007 10:13 AM CST
It won’t matter much if you keep spelling salary the way you do.
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Jim Lynch
Aug 31, 2007 10:23 AM CST
Arguably the best one-liner I’ve read in weeks. Kudos, Barry.
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Maynard James Keenan
Aug 31, 2007 10:26 AM CST
What they fail to mention in this article is that for that kind of money, they own you. Good-bye social live, good-bye family, good-bye weekends. Its a miserable profession, and my advice to Mr. Hoffman - GET OUT BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!! I’ve been in practice about 3 years, and am currently exploring careers outside the practice of law. A majority of lawyers truly live up to their slimy reputations.
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Joe Young
Aug 31, 2007 10:43 AM CST
Jesse, don’t pay that nasty Barry Sanders any mind. He’s just mad that he never won a Super Bowl.
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Ozilian
Aug 31, 2007 11:12 AM CST
Facts of life:
1. Working for a big law firm truly sucks, especially as a junior associate;
2. You need to pay the bills and get some training in big law (or very reputable boutique) firms, or else you most likely will end up drafting wills and chasing ambulances;
3. You’ll have no life while you work for a big law firm and, if you stay there long enough, you’ll divorce your spouse;
4. If you build your own practice (i.e. you get your own clients along the way), life does get more interesting and, if you’re lucky, more profitable.
I’m a partner of a boutique firm that I built from scratch with three other guys from a big law firm. My life is much better now and we continue to do interesting work. But without the big law firm experience, we wouldn’t be where we are.
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Tortfeasor
Aug 31, 2007 11:18 AM CST
Jesse - I’m a younger partner in a law firm. With regard to compensation, it seems like compensation has indeed exceeded inflation, but you have to take into account that 20-30 years ago billing 1500 hours was a “good year”. I would be interested in seeing someone do reasearch on whether the compensation per hour billed has actually outpaced inflation. My impression is that it is probably a close call.
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t miller
Aug 31, 2007 11:22 AM CST
Big law sucks. You will make more and hate your life. Without clients of your own you will not make real money and end up doing “the man’s” bidding. GET OUT NOW AND JOIN THE NON-LAWYER WORLD while you have the chance.
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Ronnie
Aug 31, 2007 11:32 AM CST
Every time I read these comments I’m glad I work in family law. Sure, the pay is markedly less, but I genuinely love what I do, I make a decent salary, I pay back my loan debts (at the tune of $200k, so I really hate the excuse of needing the big money to pay loans), I work 9 hours a day with an hour for lunch, I actually get to try cases—just came back from court now, bill 1500 hours a year, though I don’t have a billable hours requirement, and I still get to see my fiance when I go home. Thanks for making me realize how lucky I am—I still love the law!
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Dave
Aug 31, 2007 11:38 AM CST
Another idea—resist the big city big firm mentality. Choose a firm in a smaller city that does good work and is well respected. You’ll still get good experience. You’ll make less, but you’ll have a life and you’ll like yourself and the practice of law much better.
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Jim
Aug 31, 2007 12:16 PM CST
20 years ago - I was figuring out whether to practice law in DC or NYC, or back home in Birmingham, AL. Cravath, Swain was paying new associates $120,000 (all bonuses included), and Hogan & Hartson was paying $65,000 plus productivity bonuses (an additional $1500 per each 100 hours billed above a base of 1800 hours as I recall). By reverse engineering, you figured out that Cravath expected something like 2300 billable hours. The odds of making partner at either firm were astronomical (worse than 20 to 1). I went to work for a top tier firm in Birmingham at $48,000, and by the end of the year we got raises to about $60,000 due to a couple of mergers. Cost of living was great down here, and the firm stressed collected dollars rather than billable hours - perhaps a similar concept, but easier for me to relate to. Anyway, I did my apprenticeship at the big firm, made partner, then left for a smaller firm where I am a department chair. We make good money, cost of living is still good, and we have “a real life”. I learned a lot of lessons from many good lawyers at the larger firm, but being you own boss is very satisfying.
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Edward Van
Aug 31, 2007 12:35 PM CST
I’m so tired of the “they own you!” mentality. It’s called work. Yes, they expect you to work. They expect you to work a lot. Very surprising to people just entering the workforce for the first time. Quit whining.
Guess what? There are jobs paying $75k a year where the employer “owns you.” Get in touch with reality. It’s too late for you to be born into a life of leisure.
Get a job and stop whining, kids.
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Tolis Dimopoulos
Aug 31, 2007 12:47 PM CST
I don’t believe that bringing to light the fact that the practice of law at a large LLP is a pyramid scheme. In order for the people at the top of the food chain (partners) to make lots of money, the people lower in the food chain (associates) have to bill lots of hours. The best advice is to educate yourself about how a firm does business, it’s business model. Then decide if you will buy into that model for the near term. If the model does not suit your goals, you are better off doing something else.
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meyerlaw
Aug 31, 2007 12:50 PM CST
If you are guided solely by money then you will make many poor choices, including but not limited to choosing your first attorney job. In choosing your first job, find attorneys who you like and who like you; find work that you will enjoy doing (and even believe in); stay ethical, and locate in a city where you will want to live. The money will likely come, but money alone will never bring happiness.
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Justin Blanton
Aug 31, 2007 12:57 PM CST
Large law firms are like fat chicks—you don’t have to be in one to know the experience is going to detrimentally affect your social life. Man-up children if you don’t like working hard at the expense of all else, you chose the wrong profession.
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Mrs. Blanton
Aug 31, 2007 1:04 PM CST
I think you might be confusing large law firms and yo mamma.
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Nicole
Aug 31, 2007 1:12 PM CST
I attended law school in NYC and summered at NYC big firms. I elected to work at a firm in Portland, OR when my clerkship ended. I am finishing my first year at the firm and I absolutely love it. The people are fabulous, the work is interesting and challenging but not all-consuming, and I have plenty of time for my “outside” life. Though I make less than associates in NYC, with the cost of living difference I am able to pay law school loans and am currently house shopping (with only one income). I doubt I would be house shopping as a second year associate in NYC. I agree with the posts that advise you to think carefully about what is important to you, where you want to live, and the type of lifestyle you desire. You can have it all and continue to love the law!
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Leslie Devoite
Aug 31, 2007 2:26 PM CST
Frankly, I think those that choose the big firm lifestyle then whine about it are the ones that are detached from reality. Considering that most first year associates in the big firms work 80+ hours per week, all you are really doing is working 2 40 hour per week jobs. Sure that $100,000+ salary is nice on paper, but in reality there are a lot of jobs (in and out of law) where you can work 40 hours per week and make $50,000+ per year. When it comes down to it, when you choose to work for one of the “big boys,” you are exhibiting pretty poor logic when it comes to dollars per hour. When it comes down to it, when you choose to work for one of the “big boys,” you are exhibiting pretty poor logic when it comes to maximizing your lifestyle to income ratio. For those that choose it that’s fine, but you’re the ones who chose to take on the equivalent of two full time jobs, so stop whining about it.
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Mr. Glenn
Aug 31, 2007 3:25 PM CST
Kids stop whinning. You want the big bucks but you don’t work the workload. If you want work-life balance, then learn how to juggle. If you cannot learn how the juggle life with work then choose another (less demanding) profession. That is the problem with a lot of people in our country. We are always looking for the easy way out. Sometimes there are no short cuts. Man UP!!!
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JL Kole
Aug 31, 2007 4:36 PM CST
For all those with the whining comments, hard work isn’t always measured by the amount of hours one puts in on a weekly basis. In my world, it is defined by the commitment and quality one applies to their work product. So far, reading the posts has validated my choice not to pursue a career in law.
I went to law school while working full time for a major financial services company. I finished just outside the top 10% of my class, with honors, and passed my state’s bar on the first attempt while studying in my spare time. I had explored leaving my “non-law” job and couldn’t find a logical reason to do so. I already make $80k+, have six weeks of vacation (that I get to take), great benefits, and all within a non-metro area. Oh yes, and on average I work a 40 hour week.
It seems to me there are ample areas outside the traditional path that can make use of those finely tuned analytical skills law school gives us. Remember work smarter…not harder.
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Leslie Devotie
Aug 31, 2007 4:50 PM CST
JL Kole - I agree and disagree. I agree with work smarter, not harder. However, I disagree with your insinuation that the balance that you describe cannot be found in law related fields. It certainly can; it’s just not the path that most pursue because they are blinded by the big dollar figure and don’t actually think about what it entails.
Just remember… that $100,000 salary, at 80 hours per week is only $24 per hour. My father-in-law, a union laborer, makes more than that per hour. Don’t let the big number fool you!
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HDawg
Aug 31, 2007 9:12 PM CST
As a recent graduate from Law School, I have very limited experience in Law to comment. As a seasoned member of the working world, I agree that if you select the big firm you have to accept the requirements that accompany the prestige of the title associated with the firm. I am not sure that the people are whining or complaining, just stating that they are frustrated with the requirements of the job. The really hard pont is how does one who is a new graduate who is not happy with the job requirements of the big firm begin the conversation about wanting to leave without destroying their name in the local legal community?
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"Big Law"
Sep 1, 2007 12:04 PM CST
“Big Law.” What a wonderful, miserable, boring existence. Then again, you contribute a great deal to society and it’s really something you can be proud of….
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Weil Associate
Sep 1, 2007 4:06 PM CST
80 hours per week is nonsense. It happens but it’s not the average. If it were than the avg. associate would work 46 weeks x 80 = 3680 hours (that includes taking 4 weeks of vacation and 2 weeks of sick/holiday time off). The average is more like 50 hours a week. Learn math and stop whining about the occasional long hours.
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J. Salinger
Sep 1, 2007 8:47 PM CST
As to the whole math comment of 46 weeks x 80 hours; it’s seems a bit shady to me to be billing for time spent reading and posting comments on ABA articles, bathroom, etc. Either these are shady billing practices, or somebody is truly awesome and runs at 100% efficiency.
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Bartelby the Scrivener
Sep 7, 2007 7:12 AM CST
New associates can be pretty “efficient” in their billings, especially in big firms, because they can work and bill on the same case/ matter for an entire day (e.g: 8.0 Continue research and drafting of Polyglot memorandum).
When making these analyses, there are trade offs, big bucks for hours and cost of living issues, but be absolutely certain that you avoid working for a lower tier firm that thinks of itself as a biggie. If not you will be working 80+ hours to make $40,000 - $50,000 as a new associate, keep your job and reputation and possibly less chance for partnership. Their is no trade off and you will be hard pressed to get off of that treadmill.
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Nicki
Sep 7, 2007 11:56 AM CST
Wow… I owe over $100,000 in student loans and I make $55,000 working at my small firm. I work approximately 11-12 hour days and handle a caseload of 50 cases on my own (I’m a first year associate)... maybe I should get a new job!
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