ABA Should Publish Better Job Info for Naive Law Students, Prof Says

bigdebt small law
Sep 3, 2009 11:09 AM CST

But back to our proposal. The employment survey should query as follows:

1.) Law School name and graduation month/year

2.) Type of employment procured (law firm, solo practice, business etc).

3.) Job title at current employer (associate, janitor, dishwasher, mulch-spreader, etc).

4.) Current Salary.

5.) Is your current position temporary or “contract” in nature? (e.g, document review, assisting law professor with article research, etc?

6.) Have all graduates mail these cards to an independent, third-party accounting firm which can produce accurate charts and other materials from the data provided (and also perform functions like random audits, etc to assure accuracy.) 

7.) Require all law schools to reproduce the results of this survey in their admissions materials, and require that every prospective student sign-off on a notarized form that they have viewed this data.

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TJ
Sep 3, 2009 11:25 AM CST

“the naivety of law students”... “intelligence in the absence of commonsense” ....
I’m not sure naivety or lack of commonsense directly follows from believing the twisted data law schools provide.  Enron and the SEC deserved much less trust and I wouldn’t exactly have called their investors naive…

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anonymous
Sep 3, 2009 11:51 AM CST

If you think that the faculty freeze at BLS was a positive move to deal with the current economic crisis, consider the following facts:

1.The salary freeze announced by the dean was supposed to justify a tuition freeze–but as the dean has made clear in letters to the students tuition will be limited to the same increase as last year which was 6% increase resulting in a tution of 42k plus for one year–one of the highest law schoo tutions in new york. Room and board for students was increased by 25 % last year. Limiting an increase to the increase last year would mean that Brooklyn maintains a profitable position for the 2009-10 academic year.

2.The school has an on going building construction project for the entry to the main building which is purely cosmatic designed by one of the most expensive archectects in the city.The project has been delayed by german marble imported from germany. (The old entry was clean, functional and quite pleasant.) In a time of economic recession that now justifies a salary freeze one must wonder why the dean has decided to invest in a project that only put lipstick on the building without improving the functionality of the institution. the money could have been better spent on technology.

3. The Dean has some of the best salary and benefit packages when compared to other deans in the New York law school community. She is given a luxury auto (a lexus) with a driver to take her to her home in Westhester even though she is also give a free apartment in the new law school dorminatory fully furnished. These expenses that go solely to the personal use of the Dean could finance several tuition scholarships.I mention this because a salary freeze is meaningless to anyone in her position.

4.The dean of Brooklyn law school is paid a salary that is now more that the salary paid to President Obama. It is hard to justify a nearly $550 yearly salary for administering a non-profit academic institution and if the school were to take just 30 percent of dean salary to reduce student tuition the dean would stil be earning $385 K per year–more than fair for a dean salary.

5. The dean was denied tenure at NY University school of Law and was able to become dean because of the support of the prior dean, Judge David Trager. This is relevant because it should be a factor in dermining what the dean salary should be in light of her experience.

6. The three top faculty members earn in excess of $250k per year with benefits.

So–if you are making the kind of salary that the dean makes or the three top paid faculty members, a salary freeze is not all that bad and if it serves the purpose of providing extra resourses for new building construction projects while mainating a 61/2 per cent tutition increase then it does make alot of sense. On the other hand, for the majority of the faculty at Brooklyn who earn under $150 the salary freeze means they are paying a greater percentage of the subsidy along with the student tuition that is now going to support the top wage earners at the school.

Brooklyn Law School is a good example of how the current economy is being used by administrators and managers to act opportunistically by taking advantage of those most in need during the current economic downturn.

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Anon Attorney
Sep 3, 2009 12:04 PM CST

“The modal student entering law school is… overly impressed with branding—largely through U.S. News—and the opinions of peers. IQ does not shield the young from overconfidence and the reflexive desire to impress others through the acquisition of positional goods.”

Can’t the same be said about the hiring partners of most firms out there?  Because I was not in the top 10% from a T10 school I will never be considered for hiring by many, many firms out there, regardless of my experience and other, non-academic qualifications…

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LS
Sep 3, 2009 12:24 PM CST

I agree with what has been said above - for the most part. There may be a degree of student naivety involved. At the same time, however, it is exceedingly difficult to penetrate the veil of bullshit put forth by a number of benefiting parties.

Sadly enough, once again a debate ignores one group: the law students who enrolled simply because they want to practice law. What are they to do with their potential (GPA & LSAT) that enables them to attend a school with top-notch faculty & student bodies? Should they cynically conclude that the system is broken and enroll in the inexpensive school down the road? Keep in mind that many schools are loath to offer large scholarships to ‘overqualified’ applicants for fear of having to redistribute that money late in the cycle, when the student chooses another school.

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James
Sep 3, 2009 1:37 PM CST

That’s gotta be a joke… hilarious one though.  At least he doesn’t discriminate based on race.

As for this “article” I think greater detail would be wonderful.  I would also mandate that the schools make an effort to actually contact / research their grads 9 months after graduation.  Most states have an attorney directory with addresses and phone numbers for all practicing lawyers. 

Ding Ding…it’s the death knell for T3/T4 law schools… can you hear it????

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J.D.
Sep 3, 2009 3:11 PM CST

^ LOL! Ha, ha, ha… We’ve got to coordinate something.

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B. McLeod
Sep 3, 2009 7:31 PM CST

I realize these students are a little on the slow side, but I don’t think the schools should be branding them.  It is bad enough the schools are taking all their money, and turning them out with six-figure debts.  Before long, lawyers in India will be admonishing their children to completely finish their meals, out of respect for the starving castaways in New York.

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Sue
Sep 4, 2009 6:31 AM CST

For $50 an hour, i’d dress sexy too.

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ali
Sep 4, 2009 9:19 AM CST

#18

Because it is the ABA’s fault they were not in the top 10 and therefore didn’t get a job at BigLaw.

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CBR
Sep 4, 2009 4:29 PM CST

There is still a lot of need for good lawyers, if you don’t need to make six figures to justify practicing. The business of law is killing the practice of law. We got confused by the medical model—make as much $ as you can before 40, keep the competition low, and retire early to the beach or golf course. But lawyers are more important than doctors in the long run. In spite of the advances in medicine, everyone dies eventually. And in law, you don’t even begin to hit your stride until you have gray hair. Lawyers give legs to the justice system, without which this country would be overrun by lynch mobs, storm troppers, and special interest. You’ve got a license to practice law. You worked hard to earn it. If you can’t get rich with it, do something with it that really matters. And God bless you, if you do.

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B. McLeod
Sep 5, 2009 10:15 PM CST

CBR did say “good lawyers.”

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B. McLeod
Sep 6, 2009 6:17 PM CST

Sorry.  People who don’t know what “median” signifies should look it up.

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sp6r=underrated
Sep 8, 2009 2:04 PM CST

If you remove the preface “Some critics say” the first sentence is remarkably honest coming from the ABA.

The ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar accredits too many law schools, producing more graduates than there are good jobs available.

Sincerely,
Unemployed Recent Graduate
Median Student from a T20
Secondary Journal, Moot Court,

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DK
Sep 14, 2009 4:18 PM CST

There really is a simple solution to reforming the law school industry.  Unfortunately, even though it is in the interests of the law community and society in general, because the foxes are in charge of the henhouse, it will probably never come to pass.

Law matriculation should be the same as it is in most Anglo common law jurisdictions.

1.  The Juris Doctor degree, deceptive in its very nomenclature, should be done away with and the LLB, a bachelors degree program, should be reinstituted in the United States.  There really is no justification to require a fully matriculated bachelor’s degree prior to the study of law (outside of patent law) as evidenced by how irrelevant one’s major is to what one learns in law school.

2.  Require a 1-2 year apprenticeship (articling) as a prerequisite to taking any state bar exam.  This gives new lawyers practical legal skills that most newly licensed attorneys in the United States currently lack.

3.  Restrict class sizes in law schools so that they may not increase class sizes until corresponding apprenticeships become available.  This ensures that supply of lawyers bears some correlation to demand.

All of this would have the inevitable and desirable effect of causing the demise of many, if not most, of the lower tier law schools.  As they are restricted from accepting new students until their graduates secure apprenticeships, it will very quickly cause class sizes to diminish to the point where such law schools are no longer viable.

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