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Are Law Schools Like Automakers? Dean Says Some Educators Will Fail

Posted Apr 29, 2009 7:03 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss

The law school dean in the news earlier this year for his charge that some law schools are “exploiting” unsuccessful students is getting more press attention for his predictions about the future of legal education.

This time, Dean Richard Matasar of New York Law School was responding to an audience member who spoke during a panel discussion sponsored by the Best Lawyers in America, according to the Fulton County Daily Report.

The audience member’s provocative comment: "You're producing a product that very few people want. Firms have hiring freezes. Why not stop producing the product—or create new markets for what you're producing? You're like the auto manufacturers who produce a product for which there is no demand."

Matasar’s response: Some law schools will probably go out of business, and those that survive will cut the cost of a legal education. Matasar said shortening the time spent in law school could help, but that is difficult because ABA accreditation requirements stipulate a minimum number of classroom credits for graduation, according to the story.

Matasar started his presentation with an observation about the legal job market, the story says. "I've never seen so many lawyers jettisoned and needing career help. Not just those straight out of school but also after two decades of practice," he said.

In January, Matasar said schools need to take responsibility for the failures of their students. He said a law school education can cost as much as $120,000 for students who are making a “lottery shot” at being in the top 10 percent of their class so they can get high-paying jobs.

Law schools are exploiting students, he said during the Jan. 9 conference. “We should be ashamed of ourselves," he said.

The Wall Street Journal Law Blog also noted Matasar’s recent comments.

Comments

1.

Enough
Apr 29, 2009 8:00 AM CST

A few of the schools which have a reputation of sending most of their students to BigLaw may have to close shop, since not as many BigLaw lawyers are going to be needed.  Those schools which cater to regional markets and smaller firms should be okay, since smaller firms are not hurting as badly as larger firms.

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2.

P.Bryson
Apr 29, 2009 8:50 AM CST

Cue string of comments recommending the closure of all third-tier law schools.

I take exception to the characterization of the top 10% as a “lottery shot.” It cheapens the hard work it takes to maintain a high rank. I also object to the idea that top 10% translates to a high-paying job. If it did, I’d be employed for the summer.

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3.

B. McLeod
Apr 29, 2009 8:59 AM CST

P., that must be what happened.  In the rankings last released, third-tier was gone.

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4.

Bobabooey
Apr 29, 2009 10:15 AM CST

I am a 3L at third tier law school Syracuse University.  I know plenty of 2Ls and 3LS both on Law Review and in the top 10-15% who are either unemployed or forced to work for no pay.  Conversely, I know people in the 50% range who have paying jobs. Explain that?

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5.

B. McLeod
Apr 29, 2009 10:25 AM CST

Ooops.  #4 is right.  There are still some 37 or so schools shown in this tier.  Somehow, I was not able to see the tier numbers correctly the first day the rankings were out.

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6.

elklaw
Apr 29, 2009 10:54 AM CST

Law is still a wonderful profession. There is still a demand for good lawyers, but maybe too many people are entering law to be in the top tier and not enough people entering the law to be of service. I think it would help if maybe some of the things that are considered pro bono for the well off could become regular paying public sector or government jobs for attorneys who do not want to chase the top tier.—- There is a need for lawyers, but an oversupply of lawyers seeking the top tier. The middle tier, public and government sectors can easily be grown, as well as the non-profit sector which needs help but from those dedicated to their causes so they are not so reliant on pro bono. I think a lot of pro bono should become a growth marketplace for new law job creation.—- It also would help if law school tuition could either be reduced or forgiven in part in exchange for some kind of service.—- But maybe folks should better evaluate why folks are going to law school too. Some folks do not intend to pursue the top tier and could care less. They have family businesses, alternative careers and just want the training. So perhaps law schools need to probe more into why folks are going to law school and make sure they balance their classes so they are not taking in too many people whose goal is biglaw or the top tier. I think for those who did not seek that they are perfectly happy with law.

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7.

Unemployed attorney
Apr 29, 2009 11:16 AM CST

elklaw-

I don’t think that everyone enters law school to join the top tier willingly.  The underlying cause is money.  Law school simply costs too much for most graduates to be able to do anything else.  If I owe $26,000 a year AFTER TAXES to make my MINIMUM student loan payments (which I do), I can’t do public interest.  I can’t do small law.  I can’t do state government.  Heck, I can’t do most mid-law.  All of which is a moot point anyways, since I only went to a Tier 2 law school and a top 25 liberal arts college, and such a CV is proving to be thunderingly inadequate to even get an interview at an ID workshop.  That’s the problem.

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8.

James
Apr 29, 2009 11:26 AM CST

Close em down.  Start with the law schools not even connected to a university.  Than move through the ranks of t4 and t3.  Look at the historical placement of students (how many are in law related jobs, 2, 3, 4, 10 years out of school).  I wouldn’t count solo practice as employed, not knocking solos, but anyone can hang a shingle (not saying anyone can do it and make it successful).  I’m interested in whether the grads at school “x” get hired by other people not whether they employ themselves.

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9.

graduating3L
Apr 29, 2009 11:28 AM CST

these stories about the plight of most graduating law students are great - but even better would be someone who takes real action to create some change and help us out!

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10.

Enough
Apr 29, 2009 11:32 AM CST

#7:  Are you aware of the new Federal Loan Forgiveness Act?  Work at a public interest organization of any government office, and have your monthly student loan payments cut by a substantial percentage, in proportion to your salary.  Then, work there for ten years and have the entirety of your remaining debt completely forgiven. 

This loan forgiveness program is changing the calculus on decision making when it comes to public interest and government jobs.

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11.

elklaw
Apr 29, 2009 11:35 AM CST

to #7——
I went to a state school and my Mom paid for most of my law school. I think what helped me is that I lead a low cost life. I drive a Ford, live in a working class-middle class area. I did not pursue the trappings of what most law school grads feel they should have. I guess what I am saying is that maybe across the board the legal profession is bloated in some respects. My practice has grown in the midst of recession, but I charge flat rate fees, provide excellent customer service and use technology to keep costs down. I do not have a high cost basis.—- Maybe what is needed across the board is more innovation in terms of the law so that folks can work a normal job and be able to live a decent life.——You can get school loans deferred or negotiate a lower rate on those and extend them. But if they create a public interest market and provide loan forgiveness for that path, or even a credit versus a deduction, then that may help folks be able to afford law school and lower paying law jobs.—No one wants to talk about it but some lawyers charge too much for their services for the kind and quality of services provided. I think so long as a lawyer is in tune with their market that they will be ok.—- But if your CV is not taken seriously, be happy you are able to go into business for yourself. They perhaps should be teaching entrepreneurialism a little in law school. I think in law just as in society that people are going to have to learn to employ themselves more, even if it is going back to your old firm and being an of counsel or contract lawyer. I think the employer-employee model is not dead so much as technology and the ability to get quality lower cost labor renders contract relationships to be more expedient and more efficient.

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12.

3Lcornell
Apr 29, 2009 11:37 AM CST

I agree- schools like Widener University, Suffolk Law, Roger Williams, etc. are the equivalent to Caribbean medical schools.  They do a complete disservice to the profession

I disagree with knocking the “hanging a shingle.”  This country is based on entrepreneurship and innovation- and Darwins law applies-

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13.

#7
Apr 29, 2009 11:58 AM CST

I am aware of the FLFA.  I’d love to work for the gov’t and get health insurance, but again, I can’t even get my foot in the door of state government here in New England, let alone the brand-conscious feds.  As for public interest org’s, I’ve noticed most of the postings lately are geared only for those with delayed start dates at big firms - they all say things like “we only are seeking applicants who can provide their own compensation.”  Also, more than half of the amount I owe are private loans, so the FLFA won’t help me too much.

I went to law school because I don’t have an entrepreneurial bone in my body, and the law school I went to was anything but entrepreneurial in nature.  I don’t have the first clue how to set up a practice, which is not a good indicator of eventual success.  Frankly, if I could find some entry-level non-legal job at a company somewhere, I would walk away from the profession.

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14.

B. McLeod
Apr 29, 2009 12:14 PM CST

Without a doubt, this is a difficult time for those coming out of school.  Even so (and even the craziest creditor will understand), it is better to earn something than to pass over whole ranges of jobs on the prejudgment that they provide inadequate earnings.  In law, getting any job and doing it well is a way to be noticed by other people and firms that may be hiring.  Right now, I would not confine a job search to New England.  There are six states technically not yet in recession, and there are jobs to be had.  They may not all be perfect jobs, with large salaries, but they all have the potential for large experience.

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15.

T
Apr 29, 2009 12:17 PM CST

Instead of shutting down law schools, why not cap admissions at ALL law schools?  Law schools typically crank out 400-500 lawyers per years (with Cooley at 1000+).  Why not limit every law school to 250 students per class?  By limiting admissions and implementing a minimum student-professor ration, you get smaller classes, a better educational experience and fewer new lawyers. 

Sure, this limits law school profitability, but it isn’t as if HLS or Columbia is going to stop producing lawyers because class size is cut in half.  It will weed out the diploma mills operating solely for the tuition dollars of marginally qualified prospective students and the failing law schools that cannot attract sufficient transfer students to make up for the students that transfer out.

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16.

elklaw
Apr 29, 2009 1:56 PM CST

I have considered writing the Obama administration and asking them to turn something like Americorp into a domestic service equivalent of the military. THat way—folks can make public service a career and be paid for it based on a federally set wage scale, and accrue credit toward federal retirement and have the work transfer with them should they get other federal employment.—- I am someone who would have loved to have had a public service career, but I think the emphasis on big firm pro bono is such that sometimes it drowns out people who are qualified who do want to serve that way, earn a decent living and use their legal education that way.—- If others think this might be a way to help folks make a living wage doing public service work and actually not have to compete with big law pro bono, which in a way is marketing for them or a way to show we do service and not just make money. I am not saying that is bad, but folks who want to pursue public interest law ought to be able to do that without competing with big firm pro bono, as they will disappear when they can make more money doing something else.

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17.

James
Apr 29, 2009 4:27 PM CST

to #15,

Because Yale could fill a class of 1500 and still see that each of them get jobs.  It’s about each law school taking care of its own.  Those that don’t should be eliminated.

Funny you should mention Cooley… isn’t that the law school that publishes its own rankings where it’s a top 15 school.

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18.

Poindexter
Apr 29, 2009 8:38 PM CST

I’m a Cooley grad.  I’ve been out for five years.  Solo practice for four.  Earned a six digit income for the past four years and I’m running for judge in 2010.  I’ll challenge anyone to oppose me in court, any day, any time.

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19.

B. McLeod
Apr 30, 2009 12:22 AM CST

Poindexter - a good right arm?  (My Welsh is rusty).

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20.

John
Apr 30, 2009 4:48 AM CST

Let the wheat separate from the chaffe.

Third tier law schools are less in trouble than top-tier law schools living off the excesses of their reputations, and fourth-tier schools barely scraping by to begin with.

So many top-tier schools produce terrible lawyers with little-to-no practical knowledge and a sense of entitlement.  (“Of course I’m good—I was last in my class, but I went to a top-10 school!”)

Let those faux lawyers who entered law for money and BigLaw jobs fail, fizzle out, and fade away.

It won’t matter for those who truly love the law.  We’ll still be here.

It would be nice, though, if the costs would go down.

$30,000 plus at a 3rd or 4th-tier school, even a top 100, is simply not in line with the value placed on the work of the majority of graduates.

Regardless, I welcome the burnout of those lawyers who never really loved the law.

It’ll just mean more work for those of us who actually want it.

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