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Law Schools

Are Law Schools Like GM? Why Profs Should Mull End of ‘Salad Days’

Posted Jul 7, 2009 7:50 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss

Indiana University law professor William Henderson remembers his youth in Cleveland during the 1970s and ’80s. Many of his friends’ parents worked for General Motors, which offered high pay, amazing benefits, predictable hours and long vacations.

“I remember thinking at the time that GM was both complacent and invincible,” Henderson writes in cross posts at the Legal Profession Blog and Empirical Legal Studies. “It turned out that I was only half right. So I worry about my own industry. Do I have the mindset of a GM employee circa 1979?"

Henderson hopes not. But he notes a recent essay for the Am Law Daily by Paul Lippe in which he argued that legal education is growing increasingly distant from the profession. “According to Paul, it is not that we are working on irrelevant stuff,” Henderson writes. “It is worse than that: We are enjoying a comfortable living while loading our students up with debt and having a low opinion of practicing lawyers and the clients they service.”

Henderson thinks law schools need to become thought leaders considering the problems of the modern legal profession. He notes three issues touched on by Lippe in other columns that deserve attention:

1) The quality and cost of legal education. Over the last 30 years, the cost of legal education has increased about three times faster than average household incomes. Law schools need to propose ways to reduce the cost or give students a skill set likely to provide a substantial return on investment. They also need to consider how much the legal economy needs to recover so students can support their debt load.

“It is all too easy to assume that the market will rebound next year, or 2011 at the latest,” Henderson writes. “To this I might ask, ‘What is the basis for the optimism?’ The salad days of 2004 to 2008 were driven by a Wall Street juggernaut that destroyed the U.S. investment banking industry, which was the historical client basis for the industry's most prestigious law firms.”

2) The nature and cost of civil litigation. Due to electronic discovery, civil litigation has become more time-consuming and expensive. Litigants’ financial means increasingly determine whether they can pursue their cases in court. How can costs be reduced? Or how can legal disputes be anticipated and avoided?

3) The shifting nature of clients. At one time, most law grads became “people lawyers” working as general practitioners for people. “That world no longer exists,” Henderson writes. “The overwhelming majority of law school graduates will serve as ‘thing’ lawyers, either for government, private industry, or a public interest cause.” Yet the profession’s regulatory framework continues to premised on the idea that lawyers serve clients who are people, rather than things.

Henderson concludes his post with this summary: “We have to fully engage in the problems of the modern legal profession and be willing to fall flat on our faces. Sounds interesting. Sign me up.”

Comments

1.

Johnny Quick
Jul 7, 2009 8:18 AM CST

Go to Howard Law School, do well, get a good in-house role.  Debt will be low, pay will be high, job will be satisfying.  Follow this formula, and you will do as I’ve done.

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2.

Monkey Magic
Jul 7, 2009 8:25 AM CST

Mr. Henderson is correct. The internet has really helped to get the word out that law school at sticker price is a disasterous financial decision for most law students. Sure, the chosen view will get those great career track jobs in Biglaw, or the Justice Department. The rest are fighting over scraps.

In effect, most law professors have found a very nice six figure harbour in the massive storm, while they implore their students to steam out into the ocean at full speed in a rickety old boat with life jackets and lifeboats for only 20% of the passengers.

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3.

Anonymous
Jul 7, 2009 8:49 AM CST

It really is a disaster and a scam.  I graduated Brooklyn Law School nearly 8 years ago, and I was shocked to learn that the tuition has doubled (YES DOUBLED) since I attended.  Back then, at the very least, a heavily indebted graduate could at least rely on a temporary position at a large law firm.  Today, those jobs have mostly been exported to India.  Check out craigslist today: gutter document review gigs are now requiring 3 years of substantive biglaw pharamceutical experience!  How is a newly minted graduate supposed to support twice the debt load when there are literally zero jobs?  . These deans are foolish if they think that these jobs will suddenly reappear.  More likely than not, they know the jig is up but they are trying to milk the situation for all its worth before they bail out with their hefty retirements.  The sad fact is that much of this debt will never be paid back.  This subprime educational loan paper will have to be bailed out by the taxpayers, and thanks to the new IBR repayment program which only pushes the problem down the road, this ticking debt time bomb will be thrust upon our grandchildren.

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4.

Anon
Jul 7, 2009 9:07 AM CST

Johnny Quick, you are naive. 

Just because you lucked into a dreamy 20th century in-house position that hasn’t disappeared like so many doesn’t mean it’s a dependable career strategy for lawyers in the 21st.

When my longtime Fortune 100 employer melted down in the tech bust and was acquired, our entire legal department lost our jobs.  I found that, despite a corporate/commercial background and an Ivy JD, I was no longer employable at either another corporation (because they were all hiring either associates straight out of BigLaw or contract attorneys) or a firm (because I was perceived to have “lost my skills” during my years in house).

It took me 800 resumes and 5 years of unemployment and temp’ing before I landed a job at a good mid-sized firm with something of a reputation for hiring offbeat people.  And that was during the “go-go” years.

I would love to sign up for the kind of in house job you describe, but it is no longer an option in the real world.

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5.

Bittersweet
Jul 7, 2009 9:14 AM CST

And those in the Ivory Towers are just figuring this out?  Wake up.

Many of us went to law school to work helping people.  But the cost of law school, the loans that we’d had to take, the lack of jobs that actually serve “people,” and the lack of most of those few jobs to provide enough income to allow us to service the loans have taken a toll. I I haven’t represented a “person” in years.  I’m just a replaceable cog in an industry that seems only concerned with money.  People are irrelevant. Take coument out of the big pile. Read the document, put it in the appropriate pile. Lather, rinse, repeat, all day, every day. Finish the big pile, get laid off for three months. Go look for the next assignment.

I long to leave this “learned profession” (sarcasm intended).  But I still have another decade of paying off law school at $900/month before I can even comtemplate doing so.

If someone want to address the problems in the industry - fine.  Until that is done you’re going to be dealing with a lot of cynical people.

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6.

HJN
Jul 7, 2009 9:30 AM CST

Professors at law school love to drone on about Pro bono and “serving the needy.”

I was very cynical about this at the time. If law schools and Professors were so concerned with it, they certainly don’t help by the huge tuition increases and bumper six figure salaries they have. Are they prepared to put their money where there mouth is? Only the very top law schools have a decent public interest loan forgiveness program. Maryland law has nothing at all for people who want to do public interest outside Maryland.

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7.

larry
Jul 7, 2009 9:30 AM CST

Law Schools are more like Wall St.

Wall St lied about the mortgaged backed securities to lure investors.

Law,schools like about their employment and salary statistics in order to lure applicants.

Wall St pretty much went scott free on criminal prosecution for their deceit and so far the law school admins and the legal establishment that supports them have also escaped prosecution for their crimes.

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8.

larry
Jul 7, 2009 9:34 AM CST

oops—repost to correct typos:

Law Schools are more like Wall St.

Wall St lied about the mortgaged backed securities to lure investors.

Law schools lie about their employment and salary statistics in order to lure applicants.

Wall St pretty much went scott free on criminal prosecution for their deceit and so far the law school admins and the legal establishment that supports them have also escaped prosecution for their crimes.

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9.

Lee
Jul 7, 2009 10:09 AM CST

Law schools are akin to drug dealers.  Law students want the “high” of big salaries, big jobs, big prestige, big “legacy” (Supreme Court justices).  Law schools provide the drug in the form of, “You too can have all of this big stuff IF you work hard and pay us tuition.”  Then the addicts (2nd and 3rd year students) are too far in their pipe dream to give up.  Then comes spring semester of 3rd year with no big job, and the soon-to-be JD addicts are told by their Drug Dealer School of Law, “Sorry no big job for you—if fact, NO job for you.  Now scram.”  Then the next group of 1L dreamers come in, and the dysfunction continues.

Notice to all prospective 1Ls:  The odds are totally against you.  Make sure, very sure, that law is your calling.  If you don’t go to a great school and excel at said great school, you will be foreclosed on your big-idea addiction. Pursue your realistic dreams and your skills, and stay OUT of as much debt as possible.

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10.

B. McLeod
Jul 7, 2009 10:43 AM CST

Many law schools are “public” in the sense of having some portion of their budgets dependent on state appropriations.  Even as the economy recovers (which may or may not actually occur in 2011), resurgence of tax revenues is likely to lag.  There will be adverse impacts on public law schools, and by extension (due to a resulting oversupply of faculty and administrators) on other law schools as well.  Hence, the law schools are unlikely to prove a lasting oasis of economic safety to the end of this depression.

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11.

JGum
Jul 7, 2009 11:11 AM CST

I was lucky enough to attend a school whose main objective is to create good lawyers who are able to practice law coming out of school.  Although it’s a third-tier school, mainly because its reputation isn’t known outside of the region, I’m thankful that I attended a school that prepared me to be someone’s lawyer in the fullest sense of the word, and not merely an academic.  I’m finding out from more and more collegues, that this is the exception and not the norm.

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12.

Informed
Jul 7, 2009 11:15 AM CST

With the exception of faculty at the ivy and top tier schools, many professors with many years of practice and faculty experience and stellar credentials make less money than first year associates at BigLaw firms or even entry-level federal government lawyers.  The majority take 30% to 50% pay cuts from their last job when they enter the Academy.  For some professors, teaching is a calling, especially at the low tier schools that service students who sometimes work and go to school.  Academia has its own perils, including the pressure to constantly write and publish, many unreported hours of class preparation time, countless hours of administrative work, fierce competition, and cut-throat politics.  Let’s face it, the legal profession is a mess at all levels.  Like our society, the gap between the top earners and the average earners (middle class) is widening at record pace.  Plus, many greedy people enter law schools looking for the big time salaries as soon as they graduate.  Solo practices are overwhelmed by big firms that bury them with discovery, resources, and judicial connections.  I do agree that some students should be warned not to seek a law degree.  Many 2-year and 4-year careers offer great jobs with good hourly rates, overtime, and great benefits (like nursing).  Plus, nursing is in high demand and will always be needed.  Nurses punch in and punch out, no after-hour networking is required and they are not pressured to do any pro bono work.

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13.

JKM
Jul 7, 2009 11:28 AM CST

#12. Obiovusly you are a law professor. All I ever heard from law proessors was the usual “pro bono, serving the needy, public interest, diversity, it’s a profession not a business line” etc… ...and that’s all well and good.

Yet most law schools saddle students with so much debt that they have no chance of pursuing this venerable choices. Most public interest loan forgiveness is non-existent or pathetic.

Look I don’t expect the turkeys to vote for Christmas….law schools will not lower their tuition, and lower professor salaries so they can make it easier for this “profession” to serve the least served. So yes, us students are very cynical of law schools, professors and others sitting in their insulated ivory towers.

Professors may make less than a 1st year Biglaw grad, but the do have to work nearly as many hours or deal with nearly as much stress. If you are tenured you are set. Besides how many law grads make Biglaw?? About 15% (which is about the only way to avoid debt crushing you for the next 20 years). besides, most going into academia have creamed off a lot of money in the private sector before going to their $100,000 plus salary as a prof.

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14.

Law is Over...if you want it
Jul 7, 2009 2:31 PM CST

Tom check out the turd on craigslist.

3-5 years pharma experience for the old $35 shitrate. Unreal.

How many registered nurses, engineers, pilots, dentists, or MD’s resort to begging for sub-poverty level shitjobs on craigslist just to eat? Make no mistake, the recent death of doc review was a watershed in this industry. The Seton Halls and Brooklyn Law Schools of the world have no where left to stick the hordes of angry, desperatley indebted losers. Just think of the old days of the Hudson Newark ghetto gig, the Paul Weiss cockroach gulag, and the Vioxx petri dish. Those thousands of second-tier and lower grads who once clicked out semi-decent paychecks are now cast into the gutter with no worthwhile experience (and no jobs available even if they did have “experience”). Schools know that the jig is up: Joan King recently exited stage left and now the Valvoline Dean Pat Hobbs of Seton Hall is sucking around for the NJ AG job if his buddy Chris Christie wins the governor’s race. No way these charlatans are sticking around for the coming meltdown. Like oil slicks, they’ll wash up on some new beach in a few years with new scams and more insincere, fraudulent posturing.

Even better, in three short weeks the next gaggle of hapless lemmings will sweat thru the bar’zam in Albany and the old Javits Center, regurgitating the useless BarBri drivel on houseburning v. arson and 14th century property law like good little JD’s. Then come August they’ll burn in the summer heat of the worst legal job market (or job market period)in American history. Shit, both Hudson and De Novo are now only registering people with over a year of coding experience. Small firm insurance defense shitlaw “firms” are getting 100+ resumes for sub 40 K shitjobs that we know have no future anyway. As most veteran coders know, the “experience” card is an old shark’s trick, designed to sucker newbie JD’s into taking illegal-alien level wages with the empty promise of building “experience.” Yet as most of us know, “experience” in insurance defense is like getting cooking experience from McDonald’s: one may lateral to Burger King or Wendy’s, but you sure ain’t gonna be head chef at the Waldorf. Pushing bales of fender-bender shitpaper just leads to more crappy jobs pushing fender-bender shitpaper. Almost 5 years out of school, every friend I have in insurance defense has yet to see 75 K.

Maybe they can try the comical “alumni networking” events. Print a fresh batch of resumes off on that rich, creamy 80 lb cotton weave Staples resume paper, and shove them in the face of every gray-haired, drunken loser at the alumni cocktail hour. I went to one of these for Seton Hall back in 2005 and the assistant dean asked if I’d considered moving to the Midwest because “the NY and NJ markets are pretty saturated.” I then asked her why Seton Hall operates a $43,000/yr private law school in NJ if the market has no jobs, and she excused herself to get another shrimp cocktail. Typical.

It’s over, kids.

Skadden Farts aka Law is 4 Losers

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15.

hopelessgrad
Jul 7, 2009 4:18 PM CST

So it’s the fault of wall st bankers that the ‘profession’ is the way it is? Kindly cut the crap already.

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16.

EvilDave
Jul 7, 2009 5:04 PM CST

Personally, I blame George W. Bush.

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17.

Structuralist
Jul 7, 2009 11:54 PM CST

The main problem:  about 60% of the material taught in law school is irrelevant for the actual practice of law, with very little practical value.  Law school should teach reasoning, writing and practice skills.  It deals well with reasoning in most classes at good schools, decent at writing, depending on the instructor and the time he/she can devote but poor at practical application.  Internships should be mandatory in year 3.

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18.

Hablo Espanol Joan King
Jul 8, 2009 2:41 PM CST

I too went to Brooklyn Law School.

I really should have sued that school.

False career statistics induced me to pursue a legal education.

What a horrible thing to do to a 23 year old kid.

And than,..these schools have the gaul to have a law passed that says you cant sue for misrepresenation in law school career advertising.  Protecting them from their false statistics.

No wonder this country is falling apart.

It is based on PONZI.

What a sick Joke !!!

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19.

Cynic
Jul 8, 2009 3:32 PM CST

I am in the same boat as the last poster (I went to Northeastern Law Schoo).  However, I find it hard to muster much sympathy when a cursory glance at the post spotted five typos and grammatical errors in just one sentence.

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20.

efef
Jul 8, 2009 4:34 PM CST

the main problem is that the law school industry built a law school bubble on fake salary and employment numbers.

I went to a 3rd tier school in the midwest, and I saw the surveys results that they were bragging about. But when I talk to my classmates who graduated with me 3 years ago, hardly anyone is doing as well as our law school claimed that its graduates would be doing in their first year out.

The fact is that in the last 5 years there has been a huge increase in the number of new lawyers and a large decrease in the work needed to be done by american lawyers.
Supply and demand, it is as simple as that.

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21.

Anand P. Mishra
Jul 10, 2009 2:18 AM CST

I find Prof. Henderson’s views correct and wise. In India, National Law Schools are following a model similar to that of U.S. Law Schools. Their fees have doubled in just 5 years. Students not suitably placed are going to suffer the same debt-trap in India too. The cost of legal education need to be strictly under control.

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22.

John Paul Jones
Jul 10, 2009 2:42 AM CST

I would like to ask Mr. Henderson over what costs of legal education does he think its contemporary suppliers exercise discretion, as well as how he has reached the conclusion that government lawyers act for things instead of people. I would like to ask Mr. Lippe, whom Mr. Henderson quotes with approval, how he has determined that the distance between today’s legal education and “the profession” is greater now than, for example in the heyday of Christopher Columbus Langdell at the Harvard Law School, or for that matter, Hiram F. Stevens, Clarence Halbert, and Ambrose Tighe, founders of what is now William Mitchell College of Law in St. Paul. Thank you for your attention. (In light of the conversation so far, I feel obliged to admit to tenure as a law professor.)

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23.

Jim
Jul 10, 2009 3:17 AM CST

Henderson laments the high cost of legal ed just as Indiana University raised tuition for in-state students a whopping 24% (not a typo).  Get real.

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24.

TJM
Jul 10, 2009 4:18 AM CST

Henderson is spot on, especially with respect to cost, the ability to pay back loans and prospective jobs.  I went to a third tier law school, graduated 12 years ago, am a partner in a top 2 law firm in Detroit, and am still paying off debt.  I can only imagine the debt being incurred by students in 2009.  Something has to give, and I hope what gives is overpaying professors who teach 1-3 classes, and are required to write papers, but then turn around and have research assistants (students) do most of the work.

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25.

GMZ
Jul 10, 2009 5:25 AM CST

So, I am about to be a 3L.  Even though I am on law review, I do not expect to have a job lined up when I graduate next year.  Given the economy and the comments I see above, I wonder what I can do career-wise to position myself for a respectable job once law firms start hiring again (I am concerned by the comments that imply that certain jobs can be a detriment on my resume more than anything else).  I am not greedy.  When the economy returns, I would like to find a job where I work a reasonable number of hours (say 40/wk) and am willing to make less than 6 figures to get that.  Any advice on what I should be doing?  (Please don’t say that I should quit law school before I get more in debt; that is not an option).  Any advice you want to pass on would be greatly appreciated.

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26.

George
Jul 10, 2009 5:43 AM CST

I don’t see Mr. Henderson volunteering to take a pay cut.  Isn’t it funny how Mr. Henderson never practiced law before he went to teach, and now he complains that law schools are not adequately training lawyers?  Perhaps, the problem is with people like him who talk a lot but do little themselves.

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27.

chuck
Jul 10, 2009 5:52 AM CST

LOL GMZ.  Make less than 6 figures working 40 hours a week?  Try document review…  That gives you 40 hours a week and you make less than 50k a year.

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28.

Jake
Jul 10, 2009 5:55 AM CST

I always love posting on articles like these.  The legal “profession” as such is utter nonsense.  Our graduate degree trains us the least for the job we are supposed to do ultimately.  We have been able to maintain the false veneer that our trade is somehow special among the various trades because, damnit, we’re lawyers and we went to law school.  But that’s rubbish.

I went to Washington and Lee because they offered me a full tuition scholarship and I couldn’t afford a T14 (I had no credit, ergo, no option for private loans).  I went to law school for three years and learned less than nothing about practicing law.  I graduated and did what most do, I paid another $1500 for BarBri, passed the Bar on the first try, and still had no clue what lawyers do, except what I saw in movies and T.V.

Luckily I had that scholarship so my debt load was not too terrible.  I returned to undergrad and finished the courses I needed for med school.  I got my MCAT back last week and found out I got a 36 (97th percentile), so I can go to med school, no problem.  Thank goodness.  I couldn’t BUY a job in law after graduating because I didn’t go to a T14, thus somehow dumb; but I’m likely to get a scholarship to medical school.  I love the legal system; this type of thing is just further evidence that law is a crock and the justification of T14 graduates being wonderfully smarter is a crock.  Thank god the fallacies of ridiculous assumptions are giving way under the heft of the internet age.  Just because we are good readers and writers does not justify our stupid average income. Huzzah for the fall of this aristocratic system!

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29.

Robert
Jul 10, 2009 6:14 AM CST

I think the current system is great.

Law Schools keep turning out JD’s that don’t suspect that clients might be people, the debt they have encourages them to avoid thinking about anything but money, and the billable hour requirements at big firms precludes anyone that might think about clients as people from becoming a Partner.
If a lawyer relating to clients as people were common, I could have never moved to a state where I had no prior contacts or relatives, and opened a solo practice, and then thrive simply by being willing to give anyone my cell phone number.
Don’t change a thing. It’s working for me.

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30.

Robert
Jul 10, 2009 6:34 AM CST

“I would like to find a job where I work a reasonable number of hours (say 40/wk) and am willing to make less than 6 figures to get that.  Any advice on what I should be doing?”

Yeah.  You should be attending funerals. Think about your own, and how you want to be remembered. 
Do you want to be remembered as a guy that worked a 40 hour week at a job? Or as a guy that loved what he did so much he looked forward to going to work and was happy someone allowed him to do it?  Would you rather be happy with what you do during the week, or is living for weekends enough for you?
You need to figure out what you like to DO that people will pay to have done, not trying to figure out where the money is, because odds are that’s going to lead you to a job, a career, and a life you hate living.  Maybe it’s a particular area of law, maybe you want to drive a taxi. 
If you figure out what you want to do and commit to it to the extent that you’re not going to let anyone tell you “no,” not going to worry about the money, and not going to worry about status and prestige, Life gets a hell of a lot easier and a lot more fun. 
Most of us are never going to play Golf professionally.  That game is a lot more fun when you stop keeping score.  Life is the same way.

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31.

JP
Jul 10, 2009 6:55 AM CST

Prof. Henderson needs to master his cliches.  “Salad days” are the days of youth (“my salad days,/When I was green in judgment, cold in blood” (Shakespeare)).  I think he means “halcyon days” (This term is often used to refer to a time of peace or prosperity. Among sailors, it is the two-week period of calm weather before and after the shortest day of the year, approximately December 21. The phrase is taken from halcyon, the name the ancient Greeks gave to the kingfisher. According to legend, the halcyon built its nest on the surface of the ocean and was able to quiet the winds while its eggs were hatching.) http://www.answers.com/topic/halcyon-days-1

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32.

Widener Law dropout
Jul 10, 2009 7:15 AM CST

GMZ,

I just finished my first year of law school. I’m getting the hell out of this mess. Cut your losses and go learn a trade. This is a huge FRAUD. Don’t take out these 8.5% interest rate loans. Even after your second year, cut your losses or you’ll regret it. Learn to fix and build things. Learn to be an electrician or a landscaper. When all of these educated doctors, lawyers, and people with 10 degrees behind their names get out of school, they won’t even know how to fix then damned air conditioning unit….so learn to work on air conditioners and charge them $100 for the visit when you come to fix it.

Cut your losses. I am. Get out of this mess. Crap is gonna hit the fan real soon. I’m not gonna be anywhere near the legal profession when this zit pops.

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33.

HT
Jul 10, 2009 7:18 AM CST

Professors have low opinions of practicing attorneys.  Trust me our opinions of those professors as lazy no nothing trash is just as low.  This Prof Henderson needs to get his ego knocked down a whole lot.  After all he teaches in perhaps the trashiest state in the US!!!!!!

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34.

Bob Dylan
Jul 10, 2009 7:19 AM CST

25: The class is 2010 is screwed.  I’m seeing employment rates between 10% and 25% for ‘09 grads (only looking at tier-1 schools), and things are going to get worse before they get better.

i’d tell you to consider opening up your own solo shop, except that so many ‘09 grads are doing that that the market for solo practitioners is getting saturated! 

Have you considered going to get your engineering degree?

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35.

MC
Jul 10, 2009 7:20 AM CST

Robert, excellent advice to GMZ (post #30).  GMZ, even if you find a 40-hr/wk job in law it may not be as a lawyer and you may not be happy doing it.  Even 40 hours is a lot of time during a week to be doing something you hate.  If you like law, you may consider working in a public office setting (i.e., court).  I worked a bit more than 40 hours, but not much, but for a pretty low salary and I got bored w/in a year.

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36.

MJT
Jul 10, 2009 7:31 AM CST

God, there are so many entitlement whiners out there.  How bad could it be for all of you?  I do not see any problems out there from my persepective.  I am 28 and have made six figures since i was 24 graduating and I already own a Ferrari and have a lot of savings.  Sounds like you guys are just a bunch of whiners and not hard workers and no different than these obama supporting losers that cry about their mortgage and want a bail out.  Nobody misrepresented anything to you but yourself.  You jumped in and overpaid just like those homeowners and now you want to cry about it.  Tell someone who cares.  Peace out!

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37.

LO
Jul 10, 2009 7:31 AM CST

I am so sick of the comments about the debt.  You knew what you were signing up for and NOW your shocked?  I knew I would have debt when I went to law school.  I knew that I went to a tier 4 and that would mean that I probably would not be in big law.  I work hard make a good reputation for myself. I am a master of my own destiny.  It’s really not that hard.  Try it and quit whining.

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38.

tim
Jul 10, 2009 7:42 AM CST

We need to get rid of tenured professors.  Most of the professors in law school are clueless and haven’t been in the real world in ages.

We need to allow foreign students to sit for the bar.  Someone who graduates from India, China, German law school should be able to take the CA, NY bar.


Why do they keep raising law school tutition to pay for the salaries of these union elitist tenured professors?  Professors are no different that rich wall street executives.  They just sit in their cushy office all day long and get rich on our dime.

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39.

nichelaw
Jul 10, 2009 7:44 AM CST

Robert (#30), your “advice” is about as cliche as it gets.  Not everyone loves to do things that translate into money.  Yet, if we want to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table, we have to work at jobs that we may not necessarily love, but generally don’t hate.

I don’t love my job at a small law firm.  Sometimes it’s a real pain in the ass.  But I don’t hate it, and it allows my wife and I to live in a comfortable (though modest) home, eat out whenever we want, drink decent wine, and not worry about bills.  If I had my druthers, I’d stay home and play with my baby son all day—but nobody is going to pay me to do that.

Not everyone has a “true calling” in life that translates into a livable income—and I have found that I enjoy life more now that I’ve stopped worrying about finding one.

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40.

SHUT UP
Jul 10, 2009 7:45 AM CST

MJT - spending parents’ money no doubt.

These people that scream “entitlement” have usually had everything handed to them on a plate. If not they have had significant financing help to start a business etc…or some other thing that most people don’t have. Of course they never dislcose that!

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41.

lawsucks
Jul 10, 2009 7:45 AM CST

Its all about expected value, for you nit wit lawyers (i.e. just about all of you) who are quantitatively challenged. Yes, there will guys like commenter MJT above, who makes a fortune and buys a Ferrari. But most will never get anywhere near that point and will be lucky to buy a Honda Civic.

Bottom line: The expected value of a law degree is MUCH lower than people think. Stop looking at the outliers and start looking at the averages; better yet, look at the median. Going to business school has a much higher expected value and is a better use of your money.

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42.

lawsucks
Jul 10, 2009 7:50 AM CST

Another thing you boneheads need to understand. The legal profession is a cost center, from the perspective of your clients. In the long run, cost centers will be compensated accordingly. Those who are part of a revenue center will be in much better shape.

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43.

MLT
Jul 10, 2009 7:53 AM CST

May we all consider Robert’s advise.

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44.

bruinjack
Jul 10, 2009 7:53 AM CST

I came in-house straight out of law school and feel I have gained more valuable and varied experience in the last couple years than a BigLaw associate would in four or five.  I have a great mentor who knows and applies the law VERY well.  And my dealings with BigLaw partners have not impressed me at all.

Yet an earlier post suggests I would have trouble finding a law firm job if I left my current position?  I hope to never have to work in a law firm after comparing the work product there to ours.

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45.

Brad
Jul 10, 2009 7:56 AM CST

As a lawyer and former adjunct professor and one with some experience in reviewing new applicants, there is little doubt in my mind that law schools need to be revamped. The method of teaching is largely outdated, the bulk of professors, while having good paper credentials, have little to no real lawyer experience, and the end product young lawyers are simply not ready to practice upon graduation. This can and should be remedied. As for the professor complaining about the ever-present writing requirements, while I sympathize with the comments, the writing requirements should be laxed so that professors can concentrate on teaching! Seriously, most of the articles found in law journals are not worth the paper they are written on and no one in the practicing world relies on them and we rarely cite them. Its merely an intelectual exercise that has little practical affect. Cut the writing requirements, require true teaching, stop hiring professors based on color, gender, and sexual preference and hire those who can truly teach. People want a good lawyer regardless of color or gender. Give me ten outstanding lawyers of whatever color, etc, and I’ll beat your ten “diverse” lawyers any day.

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46.

Richard
Jul 10, 2009 7:57 AM CST

Bullet point 3 deserves an exclamation point.  The regulatory framework is, and has been for many years, removed from the shift to practicing law as a vocation.  While the need for legal services is immense, access to them is hindered by all the reasons you stated.  Bar Associations across the country should realize that the profession is in dire need of an overhaul to be in sync with the demands upon us.  I for one have tossed my powdered wig.

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47.

why
Jul 10, 2009 8:02 AM CST

The ABA continues to accredit law schools. Even NY which has a glut of private and public law schools is introducing a new state funded law school at Binghamton…..this is absurd!!!

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48.

Manny Pokotilow
Jul 10, 2009 8:14 AM CST

Hopefully the people who see this article are the people at the Universities that are determining the price of admission to the University Law School.  It is these people who are setting the outrageous attendance fees which act as a cash cow for the remainder of the University.  With the present glut of attorneys, only the very rich and those on scholarship can afford to have a career in law as a goal.

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49.

Amanda
Jul 10, 2009 8:18 AM CST

I graduated law school about a year ago, and I look back on the whole thing as more of a hazing ritual than anything else.  I had some great professors and great classes, but iIn most of my classes, I spent much of my time wondering when we would shut up about theory, history, and policy, and actually learn practical things.  The lack of emphasis on writing and research disappointed me the most. 

That said, once I realized I, for the most part, wasn’t going to learn practical skills in law school, I took steps to make sure I learned them elsewhere.  I worked throughout law school doing real, practical legal work—I clerked at small firms and also interned with the local probate judge and a non-profit (not all at the same time.. hehe).  My grades would have probably been higher if I didn’t work through law school (and my debt would have been, too!), but I learned much more useful information from the work I did at these jobs and from the mentors I got through them than I ever did in law school.  One of those small firm clerkships turned into my current full-time job.  I don’t make Biglaw cash, but my work is useful and interesting and I work with great people.

As far as debt goes, I thank my lucky stars that I’m a Texan. Hooray for The University of Texas and in-state tuition!  I was able to get my J.D. for half of what I would have paid for one from any of the schools ranked above it.

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50.

Mikey
Jul 10, 2009 8:47 AM CST

#30 hit the nail on the head.  Not one other person commenting here talked about anything but money.  It’s funny, looking back now, how naive I was when I went to law school almost 20 yrs ago, but honestly I never thought about money at all.  I went to law school because the law fascinated and inspired me.  I’m sure that knowing one could generally make a decent living practicing law didn’t hurt, and while still very expensive at the time, law school really wasn’t that much of a financial burden (as it’s now apparently become), but it was never my motivation to go to law school so I could make the “big bucks.”  Going to a national, top-5 school, most of my classmates chased the “prestige” jobs at BigLaw in NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF, LA, etc., and good for them if that’s what made them happy (though I tend to doubt it).  But I returned to my midwestern, 2nd or 3rd tier city and got a good job with a decent sized regional firm, making a respectable living, doing interesting, hands-on work, and have never regretted it.  #30 couldn’t be more right that if you choose a job just for the money, you are unlikely ever to be happy.  I tell this to my teen-aged kids all the time - find something that you like to do, that someone will pay you to do, and you’re a lot more likely to be happy in life, regardless of your income or whether you own a Ferrari (I sure hope #36 was just a troll; if not, son you sure have a LOT of growing up to do).

#25, I’m no career counselor and you don’t say where you are geographically, but I can tell you that things here in the Midwest are nowhere near as bad as the comments on the ABA boards (which of course are dominated by big-city, big-firm lawyers) would lead you to believe.  Although starting salaries are, justifiably, getting cut a bit (maybe 10%), we are not experiencing mass layoffs or even freezing hiring.  When things are booming, the coasts boom biggest and all those folks crow about how great they are and how much money they make, but when things bust they go down hard and yes, do whine about it quite a bit.  In the Midwest we don’t boom as much but we don’t bust as much either.  And also, the cost of living is much lower so you really don’t need six figures (although it certainly never hurts) to have a family, nice house, good neighborhood & schools, short commute, access to affordable recreational activities, etc.  So don’t lose hope!

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