Are You a Victim of an Education Hoax?

Joseph
Jan 21, 2009 12:19 PM CST

You can’t be a victim unless you want to be.  Part of the problem is that it is profitable for rinky dink Tier 4 institutions to open law school many of which are nothing short of diploma mills.  If the ABA cannot prevent this form occurring they should at least raise the standards requring more investment in the future of the graduating classes in order to maintain accredation.  Students should be required to fill out ABA approved survey forms when they graduate and the results should be public for incoming classes to see. 

Personally, I was very satisfied with my law school experience and dispite difficult employment prospects due to the economy, I believe my degree will be a very valuable asset.  However, the school I went to, and the school’s consistently cited in these types of articles are not even close to each other in the rankings.  I guess there are bad actors in any bunch including graduate schools.

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Anonymous
Jan 21, 2009 4:44 PM CST

This is a blame-shift. 

I went to a tier-4 school, and I am well into 6-figures with regard to my debt.  I currently make around $60,000 a year, but that also supports my family.  We are in a difficult financial situation to say the least.  But while I was affected by a grievous victimization, I am not the victim.  My law school is. 

Schools like mine have had to overhaul their entire educational and organizational structure not just in response to U.S. News, but to the ABA’s corporate- and ivy-league-friendly accreditation standards. 

If at all, I am a victim of an assault on the working man’s lawyer; the type of attorney that schools like mine have produced through night programs and adjunct faculty for decades, going back to the turn of the last century.  But because the ABA now requires a certain student-to-faculty ratio, complete with adequate office space per faculty member, library size and a host of other one-size-fits-all accreditation standards, my school, and every other like it, have had to raise tuition to the same level as the tier-1 schools around it. 

My school didn’t lie to me.  It was lied to, and I got hurt for it.

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Joseph
Jan 21, 2009 5:35 PM CST

The ABA instituted those standards so that not just any idiot with some money can start a law school.  Law school is a profit center for many institutions and therefore it has attracted individuals who seek to make a quick buck.  How else can one explain how there is a glut of lawyers in this country right now and new schools are still seeking accreditation.

I actually agree with “Tim” in that often these schools have to institute rigorous grading curves and flunk out a certain percentage.  I see many of these schools offering full tuition scholarships contingent upon earning a 3.5 to anyone who can spell their own name.  All the while the school knows that 95% of these scholarships will not be renewed.  These schools often take students with lower grades / test scores, etc while banking on the fact that many will not succeed (after all, if the student’s did, the school would quickly go under as it would have to pay out all those scholarships).  Nevertheless they’re happy to take one’s $28,000 a year in tuition. 

You can bash Yale and Stanford all you like, but grads from there don’t have trouble finding jobs and despite the elimination of “grades” they still use a system of “pass with honors”; “pass” and “fail”.  Students are ranked by the number of “pass with honors” they obtain.  Make no mistake about it, grades still exist there. 

To be clear; however, I’m not knocking Tier 4 grads by any stretch.  I know many who have very successful careers and could have made it in any law school.  Most students at these schools don’t have that kind of success; however.

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topgun
Jan 22, 2009 3:45 AM CST

Interesting discourse here.  Speaking of educational hoaxes… I’ve always wondered how did George W. Bush manage to get degrees from Yale and Harvard with such limited intellectual skills? My own graduate degrees were gruelling work and someone with Bush’s limited abilities would have been laughed out of the room… yet Harvard graduated him!  Smells mighty fishy to me!

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associate
Jan 22, 2009 11:06 AM CST

I’m not a victim.  I did get one of those all consuming family destroying jobs and can afford to repay the loans.  My law school room mate was not so lucky.

Regardless, there is NO DOUBT that we were all intentionally deceived about the pay, hours, lifestyle, and odds of success for law school graduates.

We were also deceived about law school teaching us a valuable skill.  We didn’t learn a single thing about actual practice at my Teir 1 law school.

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Dana Palmer
Jan 23, 2009 5:27 AM CST

All education in the United States should be free for everyone.

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Anon.
Jan 23, 2009 6:48 AM CST

I don’t think the problem is so much that schools are intentionally deceiving potential students (although the schools do seem to paint the picture of post-graduation employment a bit too rosy), as that most potential students are still young enough to have too much optimism.  I went to law school fresh out of college.  I knew going in that the legal job market was at historic lows and that my prospects for high-paying work fresh out of school would depend much upon my ability to be in the top 10%.  I went to a Tier 1 school.  I was sure I was going to be in that top 10%,  I ended up in the top 20% (not 10%), due to some personal issues which came up.  I was a journal editor.  I ended up with no job after graduation.  Actually went to work at a pet store for several weeks, until I got my first legal job, where I made $33,000 per year (in 1997).  I still have yet to hit the six-figure salary mark, although I’ve finally gotten close.  The most fortunate thing for me was that (1) I didn’t take any loans out for college - I paid my way through by working full time at nights, in a restaurant, and taking part-time classes all year round for 5 and a half years, and (2) I had a good college GPA, with a BA cum laude, and made a top 2% score on the LSAT, which combined with my relative poverty to get me a full-tuition scholarship to my law school.  I still had about $40,000 in overall student loans at law school graduation.  However, I think I would have happily taken on more if I hadn’t gotten that scholarship, and I have to think that I dodged a huge bullet.  As it was, it took me 9 years to pay off the student loans, and they put a big crimp in my budget for most of that time.  I don’t know what I would have done if I had had $100,000+ in debt.

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Victoria
Jan 23, 2009 6:57 AM CST

Wow, this question has sure touched a nerve!  I am a happy product of public eduction and have been practicing 30 years.  I make 6 figures and like my work.  I graduated with no debt, I had scholarships and worked through school.  But, I wanted to be a lawyer, I didn’t pick law for the money, the power, or the prestige.  I have nothing against money, power or prestige, it just wasn’t my motivation.  Consequently, I made reasoned choices based on my personal desires.  I think many people have problems because they went into law not knowing why or what they really wanted from the profession.  Now that they have a large debt and a law degree, they remain unfocused and undirected. To them I say: You’re a lawyer, you are smart, you are educated, and you have skills. You made a poor choice by not making an appropriate cost/benefit analysis, checking facts, or reviewing available information.  That’s in the past, move on. Learn from your mistakes. Take what you have and go with it. Look to see how to hang out your own shingle, stop whining and become proactive. You may not become rich, but you will make it if you get busy.

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Richard
Jan 23, 2009 7:06 AM CST

I was not vicitim—got out of a state school with no debt and a good job at a regional firm that put me in a high income partnership position today. But that was 25 years ago. Students today need to understand one thing. Law schools and business schools are almost always profit centers for the universities with which they are associated. Harvard and Podunk U. Law serve different markets, but they have the same interest in making sure that they keep their classes full so they can generate the levels of revenue expected by their owners, the universities. Students should treat the purchase of a law degree like they treat any other expensive purchase and give up the idea that admission to law school is a privilege or an indication that someone thinks they can succeed in law. The only person who cares about the welfare of the student is the student, and they need to make decisions with that in mind.

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Ryan
Jan 23, 2009 7:21 AM CST

To answer the question above…the middle class suffers because lets face it, employment is all about who you know. People just HATE to admit they got a job because they know someone or clerked for them prior but thats the only way to guarantee employment. Otherwise youll need top 20% scores to guarantee employment. If you grew up “middle class” there probably isnt an attorney in your family considering how attorneys have banked in the years prior to 2006. I agree with a comment made eariler about how the third year should be done with. Im about to finish my 2nd year and Im ready to go. Who cares about taking 30 credit hours in subjects ill NEVER use. For the ABA’s sake here ill be graduating with approx. 65k in debt

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A. Non Emous
Jan 23, 2009 7:38 AM CST

I am not a victim, but the law school should shoulder some of the responsibility of their students’ failure as they would expect to benefit if they are successful.

I went to a Tier 4 school and graduated in the bottom half of my class.  I have appoximately $80,000 in combined undergraduate and law school debt.  Through some miracle I managed to get a job after law school that paid a salary of $55,000.  Through yet another miracle I transferred from that job to a two year contract position that paid $150,000 per year.  The contract recently expired and I am now looking for work.

I have 5 years of experience and excellent references, but my law school grades and the lack luster reputation of the law school itself have made it impossible to even get interviews.  I’ve made numerous friends at large firms who I believe genuinely want to help me succeed, but I’m frequently told, “I want to help you, but our firm simply doesn’t hire graduates from your school.”  If that’s not the case, then they simply don’t hire anyone below the top 25%.  Yet, almost everyone agrees that my work experience and professional references should overshadow a mediocre transcript.

There in lies the lie.  What is true in most professions is not true in the legal profession.  That is, if you have a certain skill set and can produce for a company (firm) you will be rewarded and probably go far.  In the legal profession, no one cares.  It’s all about what can be sold to the clients.  You could be Clarence Darrow, Atticus Finch and Perry Mason all rolled into one, but if you’re not a graduate of a top tier school, top 25% and law review, you’re not someone the firm partners will feel comfortable selling to their clients, no matter what your career accomplishments may be.  There are exceptions; however, the rule is very clear and appears to be universal.

Law schools should impress upon their students to review the websites of several local law firms and ask the students to take note of the academic accomplishments listed for the oldest partners in the firm.  Then ask them to visit the websites of local businesses and try to find listed the educational accomplishments of the owner of the business.  The students will recognize at an instant the weight that the legal profession attributes to law school accomplishments.  They will also learn how a stellar career will never make up for poor grades in school or simply choosing the wrong school from the outset.

In conclusion, consider this illustration:  I have no idea where my bank manager ranked in business school (or if he even attended) but I use his services almost every week.  He could probably leave his current position and based on his experience get another bank manager’s job in a month earning considerably more than I did last year.  This is not true in the legal profession and it is something that should be impressed upon law school students from the day they arrive at orientation.

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BobbyMarket
Jan 23, 2009 8:11 AM CST

I, similar to Fuzzy, naively chose a Tier 4 school because of the cost, the clinical progams and the location (my wife had a good job in the city we live in).  I graduted 12 out 245 graduating students, was a senior articles editor on law review and yet the only job I could get coming out of law school was the job I quit going into school at an accounting firm. Despite my years of corporate accounting and finance, I was unable to get a job doing M&A work at a larger law firm.  I have been stuck for the past three years at a trial/insurance defense firm, and have set myself up for a career which I sincerely dislike.

Am I a victim? No.  I failed to do the legal industry research before entering law school, a mistake so many prostective students make.  If I would have done my due dilligence, I would have realized that the MOST important decision was not what I wanted to achieve with my career, but what law school I should choose to realize that goal.  I chose wrong, it’s my fault.

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Mel
Jan 23, 2009 8:12 AM CST

Yes I feel like I was scammed - I graduated college with $22,000 - three more years of school (law school) jacked that up to $120,000.

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counselorm
Jan 23, 2009 8:20 AM CST

This is a very interesting discussion.  As I was reading, I was thinking about the current sense of entitlement many people hold and how easy it is for marketers to exploit it.  If it is too good to be true, it probably is.  We all seek the easy solution and the promise of big income PLUS excellent lifestyle.  we do not consider whether our demands are relaistic or achievable.  So, if someone comes along and tells us we can have it all and then some, we don’t want to do the research because we are afraid it won’t be true.  So, we accept the statistics because we like them and when things do not turn out to be perfect we blame anyone we can.  We try not to take our share of the responsibility.  We ought to be suspicious if someone is promising us six figures upon graduation in a 9-5 job.  If we apply our critical thinking (a skill essential for a lawyer) then we are less likely to become a victim.

I really appreciated Victoria’s comments.  She is right—pick the profession because you enjoy it.  you can only move in one direction—forward.  What “forward” looks like is largely up to you.

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Jon
Jan 23, 2009 8:28 AM CST

If you managed to figure out how to take the LSAT and apply to law school, then you are smart enough to figure out that 90% of the people who graduate from law school did not graduate in the top 10%.  If you decided to borrow the money and take your shot anyway, then its not somebody else’s fault if it doesn’t work out.  You haven’t been cheated, misled, or wronged.

You had better chances in law school than Vegas.  Law school is not the lottery.  You can’t improve your chances at the lottery by working hard, showing initiative, or selling yourself to employers. Everybody knows the odds, and they apply anyway.  Its not the casino’s fault when you fly home with an empty wallet.  Take responsibility for your actions.

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GovtAdmin
Jan 23, 2009 8:39 AM CST

It took me 14 years to reach a salary where I can pay my student loans.  I owe into the 6 figures and am paying “interest only” at $1450 per month.  What lie I bought into was that a degree in law would allow you to pay your student loans.  I have tried without success to volunteer for areas that would provide “forgiveness” for some portion of the loan by working in regions and at jobs that do not pay well but meet a public need.  However, such “forgiveness” is not available to JDs, only to MDs and DOs and teachers.  My Government service should qualify, and I only lept into that when all other leads led nowhere.  I read these posts, and am relieved that I at least have a job.

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PeteMoss
Jan 23, 2009 8:51 AM CST

I feel worse for those who spent $80K on a liberal arts education prior to adding law school debt.  Paying for a BS (not Bachelorette of Science) degree in humanities or communications at inflated prices is the real shame.  At least a law degree will open some doors.

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Artemis
Jan 23, 2009 8:57 AM CST

I think the overwhelming problem right now may not be with law school or school itself, but with the way in which higher education (undergrad and law school) is funded. I went to private school for undergrad and law school because I wanted a good education and one that met with my moral beliefs. I come from a family of seven kids and I put myself through seven years of higher education. Even with serious scholarships, I currently have $232,000 in debt.  Do I feel taken advantage of?  Of course! Not that I’m trying to blame anyone since I *thought* I knew what I was getting into; but to get an 18-year-old kid just legal to make a contract to sign his or her life away at 10% interest on $150,000 really isn’t right.  Thirty plus years from now when I am close to paying off my loans, I expect to have paid almost double what my education cost in the first place. I am taking responsibility for my loans and trying to pay them down. I make 40,000 a year and I am grateful for the job since I reallly enjoy it and so many people are out of work right now.  But I also feel paralysed since there are little to no options out there for someone in my position.  I don’t regret going to the schools that I did, but I had hoped to buy a house for security and to help the economy. Instead, I own two pieces of paper that each equal about the amount of two reasonably nice houses.  I sure hope Obama does something to help, but I’m not holding my breath.

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sari
Jan 23, 2009 9:00 AM CST

i have 130K in debt from my law and masters programs. i am a single mom who was working full time while getting my graduate level education.  the hoax is that if you have a family or don’t have a strong support group, you really can not get one of those jobs paying 3 digits. i work full time and get paid about 70K but i also only work 40 hours a week as a single parent.  i have to give and take to have my family and work and try to pay off the loans.  it would be nice if there were options or better ways to work off that debt other than taking a 40K job working 60+ hours with the states attorney to cancel some of that debt.

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David
Jan 23, 2009 9:01 AM CST

It’s a combination of schools painting for applicants a less than accurate picture of the emplyment prospects following graduation and the mostly young, bright students eager to be successful and seeing an opportunity through what is traditionally perceived to be a propserous carreer. 

I don’t like passing blame on to the schools or lenders because we’re all smart and knew or should have known it was a risk to take on so much debt without any guarantees of high incomes.  I knew I was gambling by going to a 4th Tier school in a city, which meant leaving school with $120,000 in debt (even though I had no undergrad debt).  I ended up with a job I like a lot, even if starting salary was only $50,000. I even decided to pursue a non-praticing career, but I certainly use my legal education every day and never would have got the job I have know without my law degree.  If I had not gone to law school I would have been left with a criminal justice degree good for just about nothing other than a $35,000 job as a probation officer or $10/hr as a security guard.  So I may not be rich thanks to law school, but I also have a job I love and make more money than I would have w/o the extra degree, so for know I say I made the right choice, even though times are tough.

On the other hand, I know several classmates that finished in the top 20% or higher with journal positions, like me, who now either do contracted discovery work for little pay, no benefits, and hate their job, or even the few who were lucky enough to get a position in a big firm with a good salary, but now spend every day worrying about whether the firm will lay them off the next day.

I suggest comparing the worthlessness of a law school degree to a typical backeor of arts degree.  As I see it, all higher education degrees are of questionable value depending on how they are used.  And I’m not ready to say law school is any more of a waste of money than many undergraduate prgrams that do nothing to prepare students for careers.

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Weasel
Jan 23, 2009 9:11 AM CST

I wish I could organize my thoughts better so this doesn’t come across as a rant, but here goes anyway.

First, it’s my belief that law schools should not admit anyone who hasn’t been out of college for at least 3 years.  That way it’s not a fallback to people who slid through college without a clue on what they wanted to do with their lives and then decided…well, I can go to law school and make a crapload of money as a lawyer.  It would force people to live in the real world (and start paying on their college debt) and if after 3 yrs they still really wanted to go to law school, then giddy up.

Second, I’ll admit that I’m writing this from a different perspective.  I didn’t have any undergrad debt, I worked in the real world for 10 yrs, and then I decided to go to law school—at night (so not an ivy leage)—and pay for all of it out of pocket.  So I don’t have huge loans and already had a good job.  To me, this is having a plan B.  Honestly, many of the people I knew that were in my boat, were just like me—in that we’d be taking a huge pay CUT to go and practice law…but again, that would be a conscious choice and we wouldn’t have any debt to worry about and could take that lower paying job, knowing full well that our business experience would set us apart from those punk kids with no experience other than what they’ve read in a book.

I did do my homework, knew what I was getting myself into, and couldn’t claim in a hundred years that I had the wool pulled over my eyes.  And since I saw daiily that I wasn’t walking through the hallways at Harvard Law, I never had any misunderstanding that someone would want to hand me $150K fresh out of school. 

And one more thing before I shut up, I’m amazed every time I pass by a law school parking lot.  With all of these people screaming that they’ve got $100K in debt, I’d expect to see a bunch of beaters, not BMWs….

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A Patent Agent
Jan 23, 2009 9:15 AM CST

I’m not a victim, though that is due more to fortuitous circumstance than anything else.

Entering law school I had no college debt (was around $90k at a guess) due to my father’s life insurance policy.  I attended a Tier 1 state law school with in-state tuition for all three years.  I spent all my savings covering the first year’s expenses because, due to deferring my admission for a year, no one informed me of financial aid.  During my second and third years, I accrued government loans, nothing more.  I also worked part time for a local law firm during my second and third years.  Managed to escape with around $36k in loans.  Graduated in the bottom quarter of the class, did not pass the bar.

Found a job as a patent agent with a small patent firm about 4 months after sitting for the bar.  Still with the same firm.  Was making 6 figures after 2 years.  The irony, of course, is that I never passed the bar and, moreover, I don’t plan on sitting for it again.

It’s a small miracle that I have so little debt.  I’m not married and I don’t have any children, so my expenses and responsibility are relatively minimal.  It seems like patent agent was the right way to go, at least for me.  Working for a small firm instead of a large one hasn’t hurt much.  Smaller salary but also lower billables and friendlier atmosphere.  I don’t think I’ll ever work for a large patent firm.

I will note that I purposefully looked for a Tier 1 law school.  My college grades were good, my LSAT was okay, I knew it would be important to get into a higher rated law school.  Unfortunately, reputation of the school and name recognition matter.  I was just lucky to go with a state school.

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Anon
Jan 23, 2009 9:21 AM CST

Schools should be required to disclose employment statistics and there should be rules defining the formulas for those calculations.  For example, my top 50 ranked school would mark a grad as employed within six months of graduation if the grad was working as a waitress.  That is misleading.  Everyone was trying to work six months after graduation in order to survive, but a large percentage of us did not have law jobs.

Preferably, the employment statistics should be broken down by class rank.

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G
Jan 23, 2009 9:31 AM CST

Four words “Florida Coastal School of Law”. 

I gotta hand it to them.  They sold me.  They had a great marketing plan, some skewed statistics, even offered a little money.  I bit on it.  Im due to graduate and I will have a mountatin of debt.  I own that and am not afraid of it.  But I will always feel like this school sold me to get me here.  Of course, they are a for-profit law school, so naturally the student and academia are not their first priority.  But I went in there with the assumption that if they managed to get accredite din a relatively short amount of time, the Bar must like what they have to offer, and so should I.  This is not a knock on the professors, most are exceptional.  But I have visited for a semester at a top tier school that costs a quarter of the price of FCSL, and I have no problem saying, we’ve been had.

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Getting to be an Old Geezer
Jan 23, 2009 9:40 AM CST

I have no idea what “tier” my law school was in when I graduated 27 years ago.  However, (a)  I did know how much money I borrowed and (b) what average earnings were, more or less, in the locale in which I wanted to settle and (c) there’s always a risk that you won’t get the “dream job” you’d like.

Consequently, I worked and paid as much cash as I could, exhausted my savings, tried to keep my debt low, and borrowed as little as possible.  It still took me 11 years to pay off my student loans but I knew what I was getting into.

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