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Lawyer Pay

Many Attorneys Struggle Financially, as Paychecks Fatten for a Few

Posted Apr 8, 2008 1:23 PM CST
By Martha Neil

Jeanne Wrenn loves her job as an assistant Cook County prosecutor in Chicago. But she isn't as thrilled about her $59,000 salary.

A single mother seven years out of law school, which she borrowed $100,000 to attend, the 36-year-old Wrenn has a part-time job as a bartender to help make ends meet, reports the Chicago Tribune.

"Most Fridays, after a long week at the county prosecutor's office, she's behind the bar at Lizzie McNeill's Irish Pub downtown. Clad in a black polo shirt and dark jeans, her hair pulled back in a ponytail, she pours a mean Guinness, handling the pints with the same dexterity she uses to juggle folders and legal pads during her day job," the newspaper writes.

While Wrenn earns more than most teachers, and the average pay for a lawyer nationally is $113,600 annually—almost triple the $39,190 average pay for all Americans—she, like many other attorneys, has to wonder sometimes what her life would have been like had she managed to score one of the profession's top salaries. The Trib notes, for instance, that a Boston lawyer, Kirsten Wolf, became an Internet celebrity earlier this year, after she pointed out that she had received little economic benefit from her law school education. (Her situation is discussed in an earlier ABAJournal.com post.)

As the salary gap between the bottom three-quarters and the top 25 percent of Chicago lawyers has widened in recent decades, the highest-paid associates at major firms are starting fresh out of law school at salaries of $160,000 plus an annual bonus and some equity partners earn seven figures. "A recent University of Chicago study found that at the top 50 U.S. law firms, profits per partner have soared by a factor of four, from $310,000 in 1983 to $1.26 million as of 2004. That far exceeds wage growth in the economy at large," the Tribune writes.

However, even lawyers in the upper echelons of the profession complain that they make less and lack the social status of those at the top of their game in other fields, as another ABAJournal.com post discusses.

And, increasingly, in the law as in other fields, attorneys must choose between working harder for less money, at a job that perhaps isn't what they anticipated or would have wished to pursue when they opted to attend law school, or finding a way to cut costs in order to put a priority on the quality of their lives.

This situation has created tension between the haves and have-nots of the legal profession. And that tension will only worsen, predicts Harvard Law School academic John Coates, as regulation of law schools and legal practice eventually eases, allowing more attorneys to practice and non-attorney ownership of law firms.

Thus, at least potentially, there could be a further reduction in the compensation that lawyers can expect to earn for their work, he says, as the profession is separated into three compensation categories. They will be, as the article describes them: "The super-highly-paid, a middle tier of the highly paid and, by far the biggest group, everybody else."

Comments

1.

Wolfgang
Apr 9, 2008 9:52 AM CST

Welcome to the real world.  Those at the top of the legal profession have always made the big money - nothing new.  And it is also nothing new that if you graduate from one of the dozen or so “elite” law schools your “ticket” is automatically punched - you have to really screw up not to get into the top ranks.  Nonetheless, more and more students want a law degree, thinking they’ll buck the odds and make the big money.  The law schools will do nothing to discourage this because they are in the business to turn out law graduates.  The “White Shoe” law firm crowd is hardly going to shed a tear over this since their disdain for the other four-fifths of the profession is open and obvious.  So, what is the solution?  At a time when there are thousands too many law graduates - and only a finite amount of business out there - a great many are going to have to learn the hard way - you aren’t going to be the exception.  Moral to the story: don’t go to law school.  Do something you enjoy doing - in the long run, you’ll make just as much money, you won’t get an ulcer, you may even be free from having to deal with pompous, egomaniacal assholes on a day-to-day basis.

And, for the record, anyone employed at the Cook County state’s Attorney’s office is hardly a candidate for sympathy.  Those who get those jobs do so on the basis of political and familial connections, not law school records.  All you have to do is look at all of the sons and daughters, nieces and nephews of sitting and retired judges, county politicians, and large political contributors who get hired year after year - and everyone else is given the middle finger.  Count your blessings young lady - if you keep your nose clean you’ll get an associate judgeship in a couple of years - just ring enough doorbells and make the required contributions.

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2.

EEO-Chi
Apr 9, 2008 11:53 AM CST

Wolfgang’s comment is essentially correct, but he leaves out one essential point: you used to be able to go to non-elite law schools, get a job making non-elite pay, and keep your lights on.  With tuition at these “lower-tiered” schools reaching $30-$40k a year, however, new lawyers can’t even provide for themselves - let alone their families - on $40, $50 or $60k a year.

Think of it this way:  a student who graduates with $100k in debt (which is generous these days) can cut $15k off the top of whatever his salary is, because that money is going to his loans.  So that $59k is a lot closer to the national salary average than it initially looks.

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3.

Bill Dickey
Apr 11, 2008 4:52 AM CST

I can’t shed a tear for this single mother/legal barfly, or for that matter any lawyer.  We didn’t get forced into becoming lawyers—no waterboarding went on in my family or in lawschool.  More importantly, no one ever promised me the big bucks if I became a lawyer, and I never made them.  But I’m hardly starving, either.  I suppose I could have done something else, but there were no guarantees I would have done any better.  Who knows, I would likely have done WORSE. Therefore I wouldn’t shed a tear for anyone in “the profession” who has to work nites in the bar.  This woman might meet her meal ticket in the bar and that would be goodness, wouldn’t it! In sum, We didn’t have to become lawyers,  We chose to.  As such, we must live with the ramifications of our choices.  (I sound like a philosopher—ibut would not want to pay the rent with that jobt), but we’re all adults, so we should all be able to know what we got into.

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4.

AKC
Apr 11, 2008 5:03 AM CST

A law degree is still a ticket in many closely related professions, such as insurance and financial services. Making it in the traditional legal profession is not the only option. It has opened many doors for me. I would tell these young grads to look around at nontraditional options. If they’re willing to work hard, they can do well.

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5.

Rich Meyer
Apr 11, 2008 5:30 AM CST

This is what I tell college students who ask me if they should apply to law school: There are easier ways to make money than by practicing law; The best reason for going to law school is that you want to be a lawyer. Period.  Few professions are as challenging or interesting. But it isn’t an automatic ticket to a fat bank account.

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6.

Guerline
Apr 11, 2008 6:25 AM CST

I am truly getting fed up with the ABA telling us how much it sucks to be a lawyer, that there are too many lawyers, blah, blah, blah…  That we are not making enough money, that the profession is not prestigious etc… 
What is the point?  How is that helpful to me, already a lawyer to know that I have
$100 000.00 in student loans, that I will have difficulty to pay, that I am not making the big bucks.  I already know all that.  Why does not the ABA print those articles for people who need them (people who aspire to be lawyers, not lawyers), and bring me articles that can help me reach specific career goals.  Stop beating a dead horse, bury it and move on.

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7.

B C
Apr 11, 2008 6:27 AM CST

$59,000 a year as a county prosecutor is more money than most people make in my mid-sized city.  We have some of the top law firms here, and the salaries for the 15 mega firms we have average about $130,000.  Here, though, there is no mid market.  You either make the big bucks, or you are making $45,000 a year or less working the same amount of hours as your colleagues at a big firm.

I, for one, became a lawyer because I wanted the challenge and the excitement of practicing law.  Not for the money as so many young attorneys do.  I would be fine making the lower salary IF I were also able to pay my bills.  But with student loan debt in excess of $120,000 (as most people who graduated from my school have) those low salaries are making it difficult to survive.  I had a friend who recently, not only had to take a second job working on the weekends and nights at the local law school library, but also had to move back in with his parents because he couldn’t afford rent & living expenses + loan costs on his mediocre $43,000 a year salary.  Firms need to realize that young associates need to be able to survive, not just scrape by and struggle pay check to pay check.  This is true especially for the amount of hours that we are expected to work.

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8.

Steve
Apr 11, 2008 6:37 AM CST

I am currently a third year law student.  I will be graduating in 3 weeks and do not have any employment lined up yet. I attend a top 50 law school in the top 50% of my class. It seems as though I am reading more and more about the lack of attorney jobs out there.  I used to be worried about getting stuck in a field that I was not interested in or would make it tough getting up in the morning.  Now, I am worried that I will not even be able to settle for that.  Although I do not blame anybody else for what seems to be a tightening of the employment market, I do think it is something schools sweep under the rug.  I was one of the naive law students who thought taking out thousands in loans to attend would provide me and my future family with great opportunities for a better life.  Now, “kids” are not even contemplated in the next 5 yrs until I can get my ducks in a row career wise.  I am beginning to wonder if I made the correct choice.

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9.

Philip Williams
Apr 11, 2008 7:12 AM CST

This article should be read in conjunction with the Wall Street Journal’s coverage of the actual careers of a number of recent law school grads, which is realistic, gritty and not so flattering. The real problem is that there are way more grads than there are salaried positions. The law schools know and care nothing of this but that does not stop them from cranking out more lawyers than the market can absorb; administrator and professors are not drawn from the ranks of practitioners.  New law schools spring up every year because law schools are cash cows and build prestige for the sponsoring institution. NC (where I am) has a very low ratio of lawyers to people but many lawyers still have to hustle traffic tickets by mail and on the internet for as low as $65 a pop. My advice to all would-be lawyers: if you can go without borrowing money, go. If you think you can go and then work off the loans, think again. Go to the cheapest law school you can go because there is little difference in the education available; marry a low-maintenance spouse; and finally, go to a small town without a lawyer when you get out and do the best you can. You may not have a Pottery Barn there but what you make will compare well with what the others there make.

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10.

Jeff
Apr 11, 2008 7:15 AM CST

Stories like this are why I tell anyone who asks me if they should go to law school the following: unless you are going to a Top 20 law school, and expect to do well there (e.g., you showed aptitude for this kind of study in undergrad, etc.), either (a) go to the best school you can that will limit your debt as much as possible, or (b) don’t go at all.

I went to a law school ranked somewhere in the 70s, limited my debt to around $35,000, and those decisions have made all the difference in the world.  This, combined with the fact that I did well, gave me a lot of options.  I ultimately left a firm after a short stint to take a public service job at a much lower salary in a higher cost of living area, and I never could have taken that opportunity if I hadn’t limited my debt.  Ultimately, the organization that I work for paid off the majority of my remaining loans (a lot of government and service organizations have those kinds of programs), meaning I am five years our of law school with solid policy and litigation experience and NO DEBT.  That makes me like the legal profession a lot more than I might have otherwise.

Also, this article doesn’t mention the new opportunities recent changes in the law give people with large law school loans that want to take jobs like the subject.  Has she looked into that I wonder?  My guess is no - most people that agree to be the subject of an article like this do more whining than addressing their situation.

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11.

Kristine
Apr 11, 2008 7:18 AM CST

I don’t disagree with most of the comments posted but had to note that I’m appalled at Bil Dickey’s comment that this hardworking, educated single mother “might meet her meal ticket.”  What a blatantly sexist comment.  There is nothing wrong with expecting a person’s salary to cover their living expenses, regardless of their gender.  The fact that this woman might be “lucky” enough to meet a man who would “provide” for her is insulting to women who earn their own way everywhere.  The fact that you chose to insult HER by implying that finding a husbnd would solve her problems, is nothing short of demeaning and ridiculous.

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12.

Aaron
Apr 11, 2008 7:26 AM CST

I graduated with more than $100k in loans, and I’ve found that I’m doing pretty comfortably making about what Ms.  Wrenn makes. 

However, I don’t live in a big city—I moved to a mid-sized town with a decent county bar association.  I practice civil litigation for a mid-sized local firm (15 lawyers).  Cost of living is low, commutes are short, and downtown clears out at 5:30 p.m.  I make a good living, am saving money and paying off debt.  From what I can tell, my fellow law grads here who want to work are doing the same.

From what I’ve heard, the big cities and “hip” places to live seem more saturated with lawyers than the rest of the country.  Not that it’s easy making a living elsewhere, but it’s a lot less pressure.  If you do a good job here, you actually feel like you’re making a difference, because there aren’t thousands of other people doing the same thing.

Just a suggestion, for those law students who are scared about not having top grades from a top school—you might want to look at some of the smaller markets for employment.

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13.

Donna Larsen
Apr 11, 2008 7:33 AM CST

There are many ways to enhance your legal career that involve law, not alcohol.  These include writing articles or books about law (just ask the author of this article), putting on CLE’s, teaching nights at the local community college, creating a blog, etc.  If you enjoy law and are good at it (and have some imagination) the money will follow.

I’m a first year law student at Seattle U, and president of the Criminal Justice Society.  SU didn’t have a CJS so I created it and am currently the only 1L club president at my school.  We are going to put on a CLE as a fund raiser.  There are lots of opportunities for lawyers who don’t mind working at it. 

Today at the school we have something called the “Choices” Conference.  It’s alternatives to working at law firms and I’m putting on a panel called “Enhancing your Legal Career through Writing.”  I have Mark Lindquist, a Pierce County prosecutor who just wrote “The King of Methlahem,” a novel.  Someone else who writes for Washington Practice, a personal injury lawyer who wrote a “10-Ways your insurance company screws you” type book, and Laurel Oates, who wrote THE book law schools use in their legal writing curriculum.

So the moral to the story is… law is work, but if you work it, the money will come.

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14.

ed kelly
Apr 11, 2008 7:35 AM CST

Kind of begs the question of satisfaction doesn’t it?  Is she happy being a county attorney? Apparently.  Is she happy tending bar? It appears so.  Are the kids starving? House in foreclosure? Debt payments not being met?  Probably not. Hey…your bliss isn’t measured in dollars.  I can show you top dollar lawyers who are miserable and I can show you folks who work three jobs and are happy. It ain’t about the almighty dollar unless you make it about the almighty dollar.

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15.

Joseph
Apr 11, 2008 7:45 AM CST

To Kristine and Bil…

I read Bils post to mean she would meet a client with a case worth millions.  I’m not sure if that makes me better or worse than Bil.  :)

If it meant “husband” I concur with Kristine completely.

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16.

Brian Griffin
Apr 11, 2008 8:04 AM CST

Donna-

I envy your optimism, but I am surpirsed that a first year law student finds herself qualified to offer career advice to the working bar. Graduate, get a job (or try to) and then come back and let us know what advice you have to offer.

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17.

MLW
Apr 11, 2008 8:10 AM CST

This article, like so many others on the topic, illustrates a single point that applies equally to lawyers and non-lawyers alike: people like Ms. Wrenn need to start acting like responsible adults and taking charge of their lives and careers and stop whining like the world owes them the favor of a cushy life.  As a Biglaw associate who paid off her $100K in loans after just a couple of years in practice through many hours of work and sacrifice, I have little sympathy for Ms. Wrenn, who apparently has so much free time that she can take on a second job.  Slogging away at a big law firm is not exactly the most glamorous of jobs, or what I plan to do with my life forever, but after evaluating the choice I made to incur $100,000 in debt to attend law school, I decided it was the best option for me so that I could ultimately achieve what I wanted to with my law degree.  Somewhere along the line Ms. Wrenn - and every other lawyer - had to make the same type of decisions.  It’s unfortunate that she’s made some poor decisions in her life that she’s now unhappy worth, but it’s certainly not newsworthy!

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18.

Donna
Apr 11, 2008 8:34 AM CST

To Brian Griffin - It’s not optimism, it’s confidence.  It’s the confidence of a 38-year-old woman, who always winds up being able to live her dreams… due to her work ethic.

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19.

MICKY
Apr 11, 2008 8:34 AM CST

I don’t think that the larger point is that particular people are unhappy with their salaries.  Nor is it about people learning to live with their own choices.  I think the point is that there is a larger structural problem in this field with regard to what work is well compensated and what work is not.  We should be taking a second look as a profession at why we would compensate a first year associate at a firm (even a nice firm) more than twice we compensate a seven year public servant. 

But this is a problem in more than the law profession.  It is a problem in every field that allows the market to determine what we value and compensate instead of talking about whose work is really serving society.  Charles Hamilton Huston said “Attorneys are either architects for social justice or parasites.”  It is not surprisinng that the parasites get paid more, but we should be willing to talk about it.

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20.

jenn
Apr 11, 2008 8:36 AM CST

interesting, especially the posts.

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21.

Bill
Apr 11, 2008 8:37 AM CST

I agree with Brian; Donna (#13), you’re a 1L.  You’ve had two semesters of law school; you know nothing about the legal market, and it’s rather presumptuous to lecture to real lawyers. I also started a student organization and a journal at my school, and it ultimately meant nothing in terms of my marketability.

And I love the inevitable posts by people like MLK (#17), saying everyone needs to stop whining, because they’re really happy with their BigLaw job that they work oh so hard at. Reread the article, MLK: most grads find it impossible to get the high-paying jobs, and struggle just as hard as you do at low-paying positions - if they’re lucky. They don’t have the choice of considering a good job and “deciding it was the best option,” as you were privileged enough to do.

And Dickey (#3), I’m glad you’re not starving, but I am. I live on Campbell’s soup and grilled cheese. And no, we weren’t forced into going to law school, but most of us were lied to about it. My school just claimed a 96% employment rate for our graduating class. We had just about 100 grads, and I personally know that a lot more than four are still unemployed. Of course, not when the school counts working at McDonald’s as being employed.

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22.

FAR
Apr 11, 2008 8:38 AM CST

I think the best thing a person can do if they want to go to law school is go out and get a real job for awhile after college and get some experience doing something.  Too many people in law school are right out of college and, to put it bluntly, don’t know jack about jack.  I am about to graduate from a 4th tier law school.  I am a former military officer.  I worked at a big law firm last summer making the big bucks.  ( I dont want to go back and do that though).  I presently have 2 and possibly a third job offer (will be interviewing soon) all for over 70K a year.  I put in the time at school to do well because I knew how hard it would be to get a good job out of the school I go to.  My first year of school I was in the library at least 12 hours Monday through Friday and at least 8 hours on each Saturday and Sunday.  Becuase I put in the time my first year it make my second and third year much easier.  Working before law school also made it possible for me to go to my 30K a year TTTT school and not come out with backbreaking debt.  I will owe about 57K. 

So take note future law students
1) Get a job and some real world experience
2) Understand that you need to be serious in law school and put the time in to do well.
3) If you do 1 and 2 above, you will actually have something to offer a law firm when you graduate and will be one of the envied 3L’s who does not have to worry about getting a job.

-just my two cents.

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23.

SoSo
Apr 11, 2008 8:45 AM CST

I do not feel sorry for any of those poor legal souls floating in employment purgatory after willfiully having made a decision to attend law school.  As I finish my 2nd year in law school, I have witnessed that those who don’t get “good” jobs are just lazy.  I attend a 70ish law school and am near the top fifth of my class.  Although I made a driving effort at the NALP firms, I didn’t get a single offer; however, my job search did not start and stop with the $160k jobs.  I ended up applying to over 80 law firms both big and small.  This summer I will be working for a mid size firm as a summer associate with an annual salary of $75,000.  I, however, like most will have about $100k in debt when all is said and done.  I am happy that I got a job, but looking back, I would have done the whole thing a bit differently.  I would suggest going to a cheap school unless you get accepted into the Top 20.  State schools have amazing reputations and they are a third of the cost.  Law Schools are simply money-making machines.

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24.

Daniel Key
Apr 11, 2008 8:59 AM CST

Just a short comment about post #9. Like doctors, there is a need for lawyers in many smaller towns and their surrounding rural areas. The absence of professionals in these areas is the result of young law school grads wishing to avoid the “social void” and congesting the “more attractive” with a glut of attorneys. I graduated from a small midwest law school in 2005 at the age of 44 [$125,000 debt]. None of the younger students I knew would consider practicing anywhere but Chicago, Milwaukee, or the Twin Cities. Go to the small communities, you’ll learn fast, have a wide variety of clients, prestige, and you’ll make money.

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25.

Not A Lazy Lawyer!
Apr 11, 2008 9:09 AM CST

In response to #22 -
Lazy??
Lazy???
LAZY?????????
How DARE you, a little second year STUDENT, call those of us who didn’t get “Big Law” jobs LAZY?  I’ll have you know, I worked every summer and my entire third year of law school (attending law school full time) while also participating in my law school’s journal and several organizations and maintaining a position in the top 20% of my class. I dilligently sought employment in law firms big and small, but still did not find employment until months after graducation.  I took the time and worked hard in my job search and eventually found the government job I really wanted, even it does pay less than Big Law.  Salary isn’t the most important thing, job satisfaction is, and with careful budgeting and taking advantage of every program offered by student loan lenders to reduce payments, it is possible to live on much less than even what Ms. Wrenn earns.  I will be paying my student loans off for many years to come, but it’s worth it.

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26.

BC
Apr 11, 2008 9:10 AM CST

I’m a first year practicing at a big law firm in nyc…i’m one of the few people who graduated from my third tier law school who landed a job making 160k in nyc…it is hard out there for most students, whether top students at 2-4 tier schools or the middle ranked students at top schools, to get a job making over 80k after law school…in most cases, it takes more than good grades, had work, and being a pleasant person to be around….try a lot of luck too. Knowing what I do now, I’d never have went to a 3rd tier school, worked 30 hours per week, and ring up debt of about 85k, for the limited chance of getting a biglaw job….i’m one of the few who got lucky….

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27.

LegalAideIsFun...BUTUnderpaid
Apr 11, 2008 9:16 AM CST

I find it very interesting that there are 26 comments about the widening pay check gap and the negative return on investment that is law school, while there are only 7 comments to an article posted at the same time about the work-life balance.  I am a single mom, so the work-life balance is very important to me.  In fact, I have chosen a position with legal aide that pays less than $40K just so I can be there when my daughter gets out of school each evening (or at least MOST evenings…) The relative disparity in the number of comments (while not a scientific predictor, to be sure) points to the fact that our profession as a whole is more interested in paychecks than the work-life balance.  If this is true, we will all continue to work insane billable hours and read Blackberries during our children’s games in hopes of paying off student loan debt and providing for our family.  Taken together, these articles stand for the premise that work-life balance must suffer if one is to land one of the cherished positions that allows one to actually PROVIDE for their family.  Attorneys with families must choose between seeing their families and feeding their families.  I wish someone had told me this before I signed up for law school… I would have just finished out my MBA and been done with it!  I must concur with the other commenters who have summed it up thusly—do not go to law school !  (Obviously, I’m a lawyers, so there are exceptions to the black letter rule… )

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28.

Jason
Apr 11, 2008 9:22 AM CST

The problem is that the ABA is allowing too many new law schools to open.  Many colleges want to add a law school to their campus for the money or prestige it brings in while not taking into account if there is a demand for their graduates.  It is not surprising, since the people who run academia are so out of touch with the real world anyhow.  Many law schools are reducing their enrollments to increase selectivity or employments stats, but what that does is just raise tuition leading to more debt for the new grads.  The best solution to perserve the prestige and income of the profession would be to get rid of these 4th tier law schools, there no reason people getting 140s on their LSATS should be attorneys.  It just doesn’t effect new grads either, there is also lower incomes for the sr. partners at law firms in the city I live in because there is so much competition between firms for a limited amount of business that they are hurting each other charging low hourly rates as a way to get business.

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29.

lawyer33
Apr 11, 2008 9:34 AM CST

If your’e still in law school, please think twice about offering advice or opinions on this type of thing to those attorneys who have been and are practicing.  Everyone likes to feel important and knowledgeable, but it’s insulting to get “advice” about the job market and obtaining employment from someone who’s still in law school.  And to call people who you don’t know the slightest thing about lazy is an offensive stereotype.

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30.

Matt
Apr 11, 2008 9:42 AM CST

Jason #28

First, not all students attending 4th tier law schools scored a 140 on their LSAT.  Many of us are older students, currently working and taking advantage of the schools flexible schedules.  Some of us have family obligations; in my case two kids and a wife (who is also in law school).

Second, I am assuming (maybe I should not) that you actually scored higher than a 140 on you LSAT.  That said, you should either know, or have the ability to determine that the ranking system does a poor job of both – ranking the school and predicting the effectiveness of the schools graduates.

Third, I agree that there are way too many schools producing way too many lawyers.  However, it is unfair to assume that graduates from a fourth tier school should not be lawyers – OR that you are somehow better than they are.

I can think of at least one Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court that graduated from what is now ranked a 4th tier law school. Can you?

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31.

FAR
Apr 11, 2008 9:46 AM CST

In response to #25.  I think you mean “In response to # 23”.  Nowhere in post #22 did I call anyone lazy.  Pay attention to details and know who you are yelling at.

In defense of number 23 however, I have seen it over and over - all the “fresh out of college” kids who all they care about is complaining how much work law school is and living for the weekend so they can go party.  Many of those kids didn’t make it through their first year which proves my point.  Obviously that does not apply to everyone.  Many people work very hard and due to the arbitrariness of law school grading, potentially great future attorneys just dont make the grades they need.  This is part of the calculus that one needs to consider when deciding whether or not to go to law school.  There are those who, like yourself, will apply themselves and still come up short in the job hunt.  I don’t think I would tell anyone not to go to law school but I would tell them to be very careful with the decision and know everything they need to know before taking that plunge.

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32.

Guy
Apr 11, 2008 9:51 AM CST

Im just not going to pay back my loans and live with my mom.  I will work off the books.  Everyone can go to hell.  Im not getting screwed.

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33.

Bill
Apr 11, 2008 9:54 AM CST

While Matt is correct in that there are some very qualified students attending 4th schools for a variety of reasons (another reason why firms’ value of ranking is absurd), there are many, many students at those schools who have absolutely no business whatsoever being attorneys. If you put in enough work, you’ll graduate and even pass the bar, but that alone doesn’t always mean that a 24-year-old mouth-breather frat guy should be a lawyer. Considering the fact that there are way too many law grads, the best solution would be to eliminate every 4th tier - and probably many 3rds as well. Granted, many cities only have a 4th tier school, but many cities have no law school at all, so that’s largely irrelevant. Law school should be hard to get into, but it’s not!

A futile debate, anyway… the ABA just continues accrediting away.

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34.

mike hunt
Apr 11, 2008 10:30 AM CST

It should be noted that there are many students at T1 schools (my classmates, so this is coming from personal experience) who shouldn’t be attorneys for a variety of reasons, one being that they have the people skills of a 1 year old, or are just generally incompetent but tested well.  With that being said, there are people who went to T4 schools that I wouldn’t let handle a traffic ticket.

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35.

Anonymous
Apr 11, 2008 11:02 AM CST

I would love to make 56K a year. I’ve been licensed for a year (as of yesterday) and I’m still earning $11.00 an hour, less than most clerks make in my city.

No, that is not a typo. It translates to about HALF of what the subject of the story is making. Why is she complaining? Granted, the cost of living in Lincoln, Nebraska, is not quite the same as Chicago, but I’m guessing that difference is made up by the fact that I get no benefits whatsoever.

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36.

joe
Apr 11, 2008 11:04 AM CST

This board is so full of alarmists and exagerators.  I went to Hastings, which is only ranked like 38th, and more than half the students got Big Law jobs.  Everyone else, except the very bottom maybe, still snagged jobs earning between $75,000 and $100,000 to start.  Even bottom “top 100” schools will give you a good shot at this.  Now as for 3rd and 4th tier, don’t go there unless you think you can transfer.

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37.

sal
Apr 11, 2008 11:49 AM CST

#32’s post is funny, sad and true.  I feel that underlying the majority of the comments is a distrust of law school promises of well-paid employment.  I went to a 2nd tier school that published a 92% employment rate with an average annual salary of $104,000.  This just wasn’t true and I’m sure, from all the comments, that my school wasn’t the only one.  It’s no wonder that disillusionment is widespread in the profession.  However, I don’t see law schools changing their marketing strategy until they are required to meet the same professional standards of their alumni.

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38.

AFM
Apr 11, 2008 12:04 PM CST

If I’m not mistaken, the Medical profession and schools limit incoming student numbers to the number of available internships (fairly well-paid) upon graduation, thus enabling a return on substantial investment of time an money.

Perhaps J.D.s can learn something from M.D.s.

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39.

Richie
Apr 11, 2008 12:12 PM CST

Yes, and it’s too hard and not near the top in publicly admired professions. We are constantly discouraged by local bar focus on consequences meted out to wrongdoing attorneys, as if that is something they have to worry about the majority of us doing. We are told we should do even MORE free work, “pro bono.” We do not have many benefits. I’ve urged my children to get teaching certificates—teachers have these things in many ways, which attorneys don’t. Then, there are the summer vacation!  The one who expressed an interest in law school: I advised him to become a teacher first, then if he feels like it, go to law school part time evenings, if someone else will pay the bill.

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40.

govt atty
Apr 11, 2008 12:18 PM CST

It seems that anyone pursuing an advanced degree of any type should carefully consider her true goals. I think Consumer Reports recently published a statistic about the “profitability” of an MBA, JD, MD, and DVM. In simple terms of return on investment, the MBA was the most lucrative choice, MD in 2nd, JD in 3rd, and DVM in dead last. I’ve practiced for nearly seven years now, and have to say that it took some time to find the right legal career fit, but it is out there. I earn a fair living, enjoy the type of work I’m doing, love my co-workers, and, most importantly, have enough time to spend with family. Good luck, recent grads! Be tenacious.

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41.

Laughing
Apr 11, 2008 12:47 PM CST

Sometimes I just can’t help but laugh at the garbage I read in these blogs… 

Come on people, let’s all take a deep breath and admit that almost every senior attorney we know, whether in private practice, or government, earns a six figure salary.  And some earn much more.  Even public defenders earn six figures after they have been there long enough. 

You can’t say that about almost every other profession in existence.  My friends who are liberal arts professors will never get above $75k and they don’t complain.  My friends who are teachers will be lucky to make $60k, yet somehow they make it.  My friends in business are happy with $90k jobs as “senior managers,” and in fact actually consider themselves successful at those pauper wages.

And let’s not forget that ANY lawyer with half a brain can simply hang out a shingle and make a good living.  I know several solos who earn great money while achieving a good life balance.  And more than one of them did it right out of law school.  How many other professions allow you to “create” your own job?

Attorneys who feel sorry for themselves are just pathetic.  They are cut from the same cloth as the spoiled rich kids in law school who revile having to do real work for the first time in their lives.  If you aren’t happy with your compensation or workload there is always barber college.  Then maybe you can see what it’s like to work without a secretary answering your phone for you.

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42.

2nd year practice
Apr 11, 2008 12:48 PM CST

I have been following the postings all day, learning there are others out there struggling too.  I can’t complain about my salary compared to others, especially in public positions, but with the cost of my son’s daycare, student loans, and the economy, I am feeling the strain.  My firm cut bonuses and stopped paying for my cell phone/Blackberry expenses this year.  That accounted for 15% of my income.  After taxes and paying student loans, I take home less than $25K/year.  Add on to that close to $700/month in childcare… I think you get the picture. 

I appreciate the comments that one should not pursue a law career for the money, but I at least expected to be able to pay all my bills with a doctorate degree.  I was not privileged with the ability to go to law school with no debt, I had to take out loans for tuition and living expenses despite the fact that I worked all the way through. I just started my second year of practice. I thoroughly enjoy the practice of law, but I am looking for other positions, or even a second job, leaning on my business undergrad degree.  At this point, I would choose not to attend law school if I had it to do over again.  The law profession does not look out for its own in preparing them for the field as other professions, such as the medical field.  I love the law, but can’t afford to stay.

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43.

can't leave
Apr 11, 2008 1:02 PM CST

I appreciate the advice of “if you don’t like it, leave,” but it’s not that easy.  I have looked and interviewed for higher paying jobs in the business world, jobs on the level I had prior to law school, but now, my law degree is holding my back.  As a licensed attorney, I am over qualified and can not get an offer.  I disagree with the idea that a law degree will open doors.  I thought the same thing when I decided to attend law school.  I decided if I don’t not want to practice, I wouldn’t have to.  After practicing a few years, I am now branded.  Teaching is my only option to pay my student loans.

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44.

No pity
Apr 11, 2008 1:34 PM CST

I don’t feel sorry for this person. I have $174,000 in debt from law school and only make $80,000, and I have dependents. Proportionally, I am worse off than her $100,000/59,000 situation and I don’t need a second job.

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45.

Bill
Apr 11, 2008 1:36 PM CST

“I love the law, but can’t afford to stay.” What a sad statement. How I wish that all those laypeople whose opinion of lawyers is formed by John Grisham movies and think that every law student is offered a six-figure job and Mercedes upon graduation could read these posts. “The law profession does not look out for its own,” indeed. It eats them.

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46.

John
Apr 11, 2008 1:36 PM CST

Bill uses the pejorative “barfly” to describe a bartender.  He ascribes shady motives to her working at a bar (meeting a meal ticket) when she is just trying to provide for her family.  He then says he “sounds like a philosopher.”  It would be better for all if Bill would actually listen to himself.  Then he’d know what he really sounds like.

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47.

Ruminatng
Apr 11, 2008 1:40 PM CST

#41 sounds like the closest one to me. I’m a re-comment, same as #35. I would love to be able to take home $25K a year “after taxes and paying student loans.” I would be going under if my wife wasn’t a nurse.

I’m totally in agreement with #42 also. A J.D. does not open doors. It closes them. I am far over-qualified for most jobs that would interest me, and I’m under-qualified for all the others. Add that together with my employer taking full advantage of the situation, and I’m screwed.

I didn’t get into this for the money. I love the job. But after 7 years of higher education, I’m sick and tired of getting paid less than the high school diploma weilding developmentally-disabled people who work in the cafeteria at the hospital where my wife works.

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48.

anon
Apr 11, 2008 2:29 PM CST

From #17: “This article, like so many others on the topic, illustrates a single point that applies equally to lawyers and non-lawyers alike: people like Ms. Wrenn need to start acting like responsible adults and taking charge of their lives and careers and stop whining like the world owes them the favor of a cushy life.  As a Biglaw associate who paid off her $100K in loans after just a couple of years in practice…”
—did you even read the article?? How does your making 160k + bonus to start compare to her making 59k?? Unlike you, she went to a T3 school and didn’t have the same luxury of biglaw as you did to make six figures and pay off your debt.

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49.

Anonymous
Apr 11, 2008 2:56 PM CST

The debt is killing young lawyers today.  I know someone who is working at a small firm and COLLECTING FOOD STAMPS!!!  Many of my tier 2 colleagues are working in horrible, dead-end document review positions in the basements of biglaw where they aren’t developing any skills and are being treated like crap.  Read Tom the Temp’s blog to get a taste of some of the hell that recent grads are living on a daily basis.  http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com

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50.

Rainmaker
Apr 11, 2008 3:12 PM CST

Start your own firms if you want to make money.  The myth that landing a big-law job is the road to happiness and financial security is one of the greatest disservices done to law students.  Those people are wage slaves.  $160k in NYC isn’t a lot of money folks, especially when you can make $200k+ in your own practice in almost any mid-sized city in America.  Not to mention the tremendous advantage of controlling your own client load and schedule. 

Self-incorporate for $250, go downtown and rent an executive suite for $800 per month, drop $5k for yellow page adds, get insurance for when you screw up, print up some business cards and answer your phone when it rings and you will make plenty of money.  The first year might be a little rough, but it’s easy enough to do all things considered.

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