Big Salaries Linked to Big-Name Law Schools; Small Pay Is Larger Reality

Randall
Jan 11, 2008 6:29 AM CST

$60,000?  Those of working in the public sector are lucky to hit that after many years of service, and most start below the lowest average listed here.  I didn’t go to law school to get rich, but it would be nice to actually be to pay the bills.

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mike hunt
Jan 11, 2008 7:16 AM CST

Lets not start making this an encounter session.  We’re all lawyers making ends meet, working hard, some harder than others, and lets keep our chins up—it could be a lot worse.  We have time to read and comment on this tripe; many other lawyers don’t have the wherewithall to join the ABA, let alone the time to troll the web to read and comment.  My boss knows I’m a webhound, but he’s happy enough with my work to pay me $70K.  And that’s fine by me and my lifestyle.  So quit griping and be glad you have work and a salary, even if it isn’t the salary of David Boies.  I recognize that he’s smarter than me, and he also works a lot harder!  I prefer my lifestyle.  Thank you.

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Nicole
Jan 11, 2008 7:44 AM CST

Mike, it’s very nice that you are a self-professed “webhound” and that you still make $70K a year.  Congratulations.  However, your comment about “quit griping and be glad that you have work and a salary” shows that you clearly don’t understand the struggles of people who make far less than you. 

I have $88K in student loans and I consider myself lucky because many people have a lot more.  However, I am a second-year associate with a 70 (yes, 70) case caseload and I am making far less money than you.  I struggle each month to make my student loan payments.  I am responsible with my money and have no credit card debt, but I live in a one-bedroom apartment in Philadelphia and I don’t splurge because I can’t.  My firm doesn’t pay for my CLEs or bar memberships.  I can’t afford my bar memberships (free the first year) so they have all lapsed.  I have to borrow money from my parents for my CLE courses!

So excuse the rest of us if we feel a little bitter about working our butts off and spending thousands to educate ourselves and finding out that we can only find jobs that pay us so little that we can barely afford to pay our bills.

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John
Jan 11, 2008 7:50 AM CST

When I graduated from Michigan Law School in 1972 I owed only about $6,500, thanks mainly to the GI Bill, clerking for profs and Michigan residency. I didn’t need a high-paying job, and I didn’t look for one. Nor did I need prestige. I still don’t need it, and I’m still not rich, but I’m happy.

As far as I’m concerned, the best reason for going to law school is to learn about this fascination process we call “law.” The fact that it supplies you with skills that can help make a living is a bonus. I enjoyed law school immensely. It was the perfect way to cap a liberal education.

Unfortunately, hardly anyone can enjoy the benefits of a legal education nowadays without going deeply into debt. Most graduates need to make lots of money just to dig their way out of the hole, even if they have the good sense not to worry about wealth or prestige. It’s sad. I tell my kids law school can be a great educational experience, and law can be a satisfying way to make a living, but I don’t recommend it if the cost is debt slavery.

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Brian Tome
Jan 11, 2008 8:03 AM CST

I too am a little depressed upon considering my job prospects (I graduate in May).  However, keep in mind that a JD will open doors other than those on the hinges of a courtroom.  Nicole, you are a valuable professional with a high degree of education.  If your employer doesn’t pay you what you deserve, start looking for a new employer.  I don’t mean, quit and then look for a job, but look now and when you find someone who will pay you what you deserve, run don’t walk in that direction.  As a law clerk, I have seen many young attorneys in my court’s jurisdiction, being underpaid and overworked so their partner can pay for his new sports car and his beach house in the keys.  I appreciate the hard work and time invested that got a partner where they are, and hope to reap some of those benefits one day, but most of them will take advantage of you for as long as you let them, so make it hard for them to do.  And above all, never doubt your own value.  You can make all the difference to someone who needs a good attorney.  You deserve to be fairly compensated for that.
Good luck!

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WillietheLawyer
Jan 11, 2008 8:08 AM CST

And where. TomthWaiter, did you spend the seven years and hundreds of thousands these other guys spent getting their law licenses?

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Brian
Jan 11, 2008 8:14 AM CST

Most commenters are expressing disappointment that their law degree is not a substitute for independent wealth, personal nirvana or, at least, an annuity.  It’s not any of those, and never was for anyone.  From my perspective, 30 years out of a nationally recognized law school, I make these observations, which I realized far later in my career than I should have: 

Professionals are not employees, no matter what the paper says.  You can be functionally and politically an employee even if you find the Grail of partnership, and you can stand tall as an associate.  If you want to punch a clock, have weekends off and own a prefab retirement plan, get a job.  Otherwise, recognize the potential and opportunity that you have gained by your work in law school and start a career, whether it be within a firm or on your own.  Your own clients (not those dogs and cats put on your desk by your BigLaw partner) are your wealth and your security, not the partner and not the partner’s clients, who will never remember your name.

I’m sympathetic to the debt load my students carry (I’m an adjunct professor), but I am also impressed by how much initiative they show in their post-school professional lives.  If they can do it, so can you.  Play the long game, keep your eye on the ball and stand straight.  And shine your shoes.

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WillietheLawyer
Jan 11, 2008 8:21 AM CST

The comment about researching income prospects in advance are well taken.  If you didn’t get in at Hahvahd, you better be prepared to scratch when you get out.  When I came out it was possible to start from nothing and build a respectable income after some years —many years in my own case—but I honestly don’t see how you can feed yourself, much less a family, on your own when you have to start out owing a non-dischargeable quarter million bux.

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H.V.Baxendale
Jan 11, 2008 8:32 AM CST

The ABA Journal and associated publications is one of the worst offenders of perpetuating the false view about lawyers: that they ALL start at $160K, that they ALL make a million a year, that they ALL bill 2400 and work 3000.  Thanks to these articles and headlines, the public and the naive law students and law school applicants believe these things.
The saying about lawyers back in the day is that they “live well and die poor.”  That is, income was high enough to support a comfortable life style, but they weren’t amassing great wealth.  Today the Biglaw partners are like the executives we represent, but the business model has flaws.
Nothing the Journal says is false, but it sure has created a false view of reality.

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Daniel
Jan 11, 2008 8:48 AM CST

It really wasn’t that difficult to simply call a few dozen lawyers and schedule some short interviews before applying to law school. It’s possible to educate yourself and make some good guesses about what kind of life you are going to live after law school. There’s no real trick to making good decisions about spending $100K.

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Charlie
Jan 11, 2008 8:59 AM CST

Interested: is the tuition at those state schools <$15k per year for non-residents?  If not, then I guess folks are stuck with whatever their own state charges.  I went to a state school that nearly tripled tuition for law students between the time I started and the time I graduated.  There’s actually a pending lawsuit over it.  Furthermore, have you considered the fact that a great many law students are unmarried with no family support or savings, can’t work to support themselves during school, and therefore have to borrow their living expenses as well?

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rockhopper
Jan 11, 2008 9:18 AM CST

Charlie. The tuition at many state law schools in the midwest is very reasonable for non-residents. If not <$15k, often still <$20k. Several offer residency after the first year. I actually think that it’s a good idea to save up for law school. Buying on credit is not a better idea now than it was before.

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jonathan Edwards
Jan 11, 2008 9:20 AM CST

graduating as I am from South Dakota this spring, I knew long ago what some are just finding out.  And note that SD is at the bottom of the pay scale.  However, I never intended to work for someone else, the law school loans are a 2nd mortgage and nothing more (I pay out of state tuition), and I haven’t made $38K since my last year in the Air Force, and that was many years ago.  I will hang up my own shingle, and expect to do fine.  Not great, just fine.  Will I every be out of debt? probably not.  So what?  If I can pay my bill, enjoy time with my family, go hunting and fishing with my pals, what more do I need?

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Jim
Jan 11, 2008 9:33 AM CST

Interested: In addition to the $15K per year for a state law school, don’t forget living expense, which willl be at least another $10K per year (assuming that you are willing to live at the poverty level for 3 years)

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Aaron
Jan 11, 2008 9:39 AM CST

I think the real problem isn’t the disparity in salaries, but the huge disparities in the cost of legal education, and the impossibility of really evaluating the value of the additional cost.  I had the opportunity for a free ride at a low-ranked school, and ended up paying about 70k in tuition alone for a higher ranked one, based on the “average salaries” coming out of the two schools.  But did I really buy more opportunity?  I graduated in the top 25 percent from my school, but maybe I would have been in the top 5 percent at the school offering me a free ride.  I can’t tell how much of the opportunities I had coming out of law school were as a result of my own performance, and how much was a result of my law school’s name.  Was it worth the 70k in extra loans?  I will never really know.

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Charlie
Jan 11, 2008 9:48 AM CST

Interested: I worked part time during law school, I worked full time during the summers, I graduated with approximately $90,000 in student loans.  Did you go to law school?  If so, what was your student loan tally at the end?

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George Lenard
Jan 11, 2008 9:50 AM CST

Re # 22:  In-state (resident) public tuition is by far the best deal, barring substantial scholarship aid.  If you can’t get into your state law school, maybe you should rethink your plans, because your grades and test scores likely indicate you will have a tough time succeeding in school (which means certainly top half, if not higher).

As to borrowing living expenses, here’s a plan.  Do that, but live on a near-poverty budget ($10,000-$15,000) (yes, I did this, living in a roach-infested rooming house).  Then, when you graduate, $60,000 (or less) will feel like you’re rich, even with loan payments.

Finally, people seem to forget that (1) we’re talking here about STARTING pay in a profession with a huge upside; and (2) we’re talking about practicing law like it’s a JOB.  What I wasn’t taught, and apparently still isn’t taught enough, is that with that mentality you will always be a wage slave for the entreprenurial lawyers who make sure they take home high six figures or seven figures.  They do this not so much by being good lawyers (though most are), but by being supreme salesmen, networkers, business managers, and client communicators.

Let’s do some math. Lets say you don’t have a JOB as a lawyer, but own your own business as a lawyer—your own solo practice—and it costs $4,000 a month ($48,000 a year) in overhead.  You bill 50 35 hour weeks @ a modest $200 per hour.  So you’re making $ 302,000 a year ($350,000 gross less $48,000 overhead), with two weeks off, only billing 1750 hours (well below big-firm standards).  Now THAT’s making money the old-fashioned way.  Of course, those numbers may vary, and it takes a while to get there, but that’s the upside.  Instant gratification—NOT!  It gets better yet when you start hiring (and making a big margin on) law school grads who don’t get the true meaning of law-as-a-business yet and are desperate for a JOB.

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Tricia
Jan 11, 2008 9:56 AM CST

No one said law school was a ticket to great wealth.  We do this because we want to practice this profession—right…?  In any endeavor, it takes more than a financial investment to be successful.  It requires you to gain some valuable experience and distinguish yourself.  Once you’e done that, decide what you want and make it happen.  Don’t be a victim of the “system.”  And pay no attention to statistics.  You create your own experience depending on your attitude.  Stop buying into the b-s.

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Interested
Jan 11, 2008 9:58 AM CST

Charlie - I am married, with children, have no familiy funds flowing in, and my wife only made $10k per year while I was in school. My total was ~$100k. I know what it is like to start at $45k in a big city, and while not fun, you can do it. While starting low isn’t fun considering the effort and time you put in, the benefit is the possibility of lateral moves and other open doors that you get with a JD, as opposed to the majority of Americans who don’t significantly deviate from where they start, even if they also start out at $45k.

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Law Student in Madison
Jan 11, 2008 10:11 AM CST

Tricia,

Well said.  You must be a genius!  (no sarcasm intended)  I like the way you think.

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Hard Working Lawyer
Jan 11, 2008 10:33 AM CST

Listen, not to be rude, but the vast majority of those who did well at good law schools have a very good chance of getting one of the high profile, well paying jobs you hear about.  Those who went to lesser law schools or who did poorly don’t get that chance.  I am glad that there are now reports that help to make that clearer to people, even if the report has its flaws.  Those of you who are making $40k-$70k, well, that sucks, but don’t resent those who are doing well.

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Danny
Jan 11, 2008 10:55 AM CST

Go blue!

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Bill
Jan 11, 2008 11:18 AM CST

Re. #30: I have the opposite story. I was accepted to a first-tier school, and offered a free ride at a third tier. After researching the schools, the profession, and speaking with numerous attorneys, I decided it was best to save money and go with the free school. I, too, thought that I would likely be ranked higher at a school with lower admission standards, and my LSAT was excellent, which should have indicated the same. It didn’t happen, even amongst many classmates who had difficulties breathing and closing their mouths at the same time. The extent to which law school exams measure one’s knowledge of the law is a conversation for elsewhere, but however arbitrary they may or may not be, it is the same no matter where you go to school (something several lawyers told me, which I didn’t want to listen to). Regardless, it may not have made a difference anyway, because while the top 10% students at Third-Tier U. always got the on-campus interviews, none of them got offers. I am still looking for work nine months after graduation, and probably a third of my class is as well. Also, my school (and this is not uncommon, though perhaps also not necessarily typical) sets the standards for keeping a scholarship so high that over half of the recipients lost them after 2-3 semesters. Given the choice to do it all over, I would not hesitate for ONE SECOND to spend the additional $70k for a first-tier instead of a free third-tier.

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Dwight Stuff
Jan 11, 2008 11:26 AM CST

RE: #45.
I’ve worked with Engineers all of my life, and I promise you that they are not necessarily the best problem solvers. In fact they seem to be pretty limited. What scares me are the not-very-good Engineers that pretend to be what they are not who go into another field (Law?) because they see a limit to their success as Engineers. It’s probably important to note as well that arrogant people tend to be useless in an environment where they can’t feel smarter than everybody else. Good luck.

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Former Archi
Jan 11, 2008 11:33 AM CST

Law is a second career for me.  I used to be an architect.  The average debt for a M.Arch. (also a 3 year professional degree) is about $80,000 from one of the top schools. The average starting salary for an architect in a major city is about $37,000.  Most recent law school graduates I know have about $100,000 in debt and make about $80,000.  And yet I hear more complaints from new lawyers than new architects.  Perhaps it’s because architects know they will be working 60-80 hour weeks for very little pay and have no expectations to the contrary.  Some law students seem to think they are entitled to high paying jobs that will instantly vault them into the upper-middle class.  Many people work very hard and no one is entitled to anything. At least with a law degree there is the possibility of being able to afford property before I am 50, provide for my family,  and be able to help my parents in their old age. It won’t happen upon graduation, but it will happen.  As an architect, I could never image being able to afford any of those things because unless you are a starchitect like Gehry, salaries top out at $100,000.

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