Law Practice Management
‘Cravath Model’ that Created Have and Have-Not Law Grads Could Implode
Posted Jul 22, 2008 8:00 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
A chart showing the salaries of 2006 law graduates illustrates a striking finding: The bulk of new lawyers are almost evenly divided into the haves and the have-nots.
William Henderson, a professor of Indiana University School of Law, sees a connection between the salary distribution and the possible demise of the “Cravath system” of hiring by the big law firms.
Law firm salaries of 2006 grads had a “bimodal distribution,” meaning that salaries placed on a graph were clustered around two peaks, NALP figures show. While the median salary was $62,000, about 27 percent of full-time law graduates were earning $40,000 to $55,000 a year year, and about 28 percent were earning more than $100,000, Henderson reported on a post at Empirical Legal Studies last fall.
Now Henderson is advancing a couple theories about the market forces contributing to the unusual salary structure in a recent post at Empirical Legal Studies. One catalyst is the growth in the corporate legal services market. The other is the Cravath hiring system in which the top law firms seek to hire the highest-performing law grads from the best law schools.
Firms that don't want to be viewed as second rate are willing to pay ever higher salaries to hire these grads. Yet firms with lower profits per partner are struggling to continue paying high associate salaries.
At the same time, the struggling firms are losing some of their partners in marquee practice areas, who are moving on to law firms with higher profits per partner, he says. He identifies the marquee practice areas as white-collar crime, securities enforcement, mergers and acquisitions, private equity, emerging markets and intellectual property.
Meanwhile, partners at profitable firms in non-premium practice areas are moving downstream, he says. These less-than-premium practice areas include regulatory compliance, real estate, public finance, project finance, and trust and estates.
Firms without a good mix of premium practice areas will find it difficult to stick with the Cravath model, he concludes. “In other words, for many large law firms, the wheels of their hallowed business model are falling off.”
Henderson offers a solution in a working paper in which he notes a study at Bell Laboratories that found no relationship between star performers and IQ or their social abilities, Legal Ethics Forum reports.
The study found that high productivity was related to work strategies that could be taught. Top performers, the study found, were able to evaluate problems from the viewpoint of customers and managers. They also took initiative, tapped into co-workers’ expertise and built consensus. Henderson believes high-quality grads who may have missed the cutoff for in-campus interviews by the big firms could also be taught these qualities.
He proposes a new business model for law firms that hire these students with a goal of delivering high-level legal services in a cost-productive way. Henderson's proposal appears to suggest that such firms would rely on flat-fee and success-fee billing.
“Once a firm makes a fortune by focusing on an underserved middle market, it too will redefine our perceptions of eliteness,” he writes.
Updated at 10:05 a.m. to include information from Henderson's working paper.
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Comments
kay sieverding
Jul 22, 2008 10:39 AM CST
The salaries for engineering grads from MIT, Stanford etc. and very competitive engineering schools do seem to be higher than from other schools. MIT and Stanford collect and publish compensation of alumni. Also they get stock options.
I have a friend who hired people for Lockheed, however, and he said the state school grads were much better workers than the Stanford grads. He said the state school grads were more “well balanced” , had a better attitude, and were less self-centered.
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Angry Recent Grad
Jul 23, 2008 3:24 PM CST
SHOULD implode. SHOULD.
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Have Not!
Jul 25, 2008 4:04 AM CST
I’m a 2006 have not graduate. I didn’t graduate from a Top Law School nor was I in the top 10% of my class. Just getting my resume acknowledged is crazy! I have tons of legal experience (granted as a paralegal) but I don’t need to be trained how to handle a file because I’ve been doing it! What I thought would be a benefit, may actually have turned into my worst nightmare. I look forward to the day with the Cravath model implodes (but I’m not holding my breath). Thanks for making me feel worse than I already do.
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Not average joe
Jul 25, 2008 5:39 AM CST
It shouldnt implode. I worked my butt off to get into a T14. After that, I had to endure the stiff competition to finsih somewhere decent. I owe over $150,000 in student loans. Not only do I need the huge salary, I deserve it, I’ve worked my butt off.
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Bill
Jul 25, 2008 5:43 AM CST
Love that modern Gen x/y attitude - “I deserve it.”
You don’t get what you deserve in life; you get what you earn. You and about a million other people work their “butts off” every day - it doesn’t mean everyone “deserves” an over-the-top salary - especially a wet-behind-the-ears, overly cocky, fresh-outta-school twenty something with an attitude.
Get some life experience - work a real job; pay a mortgage; pay taxes; get married; raise a couple of kids - then tell me what you “deserve.”
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poovie
Jul 25, 2008 5:45 AM CST
No, you certianly are not an average Joe! How about watching your spelling there genius. You sound like a nightmare date.
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TTT Crusader
Jul 25, 2008 6:01 AM CST
Not average joe, you are most likely an “average joe” intellectually speaking. LOL at you for thinking you are smarter than anyone because you went to a T14. All that means is you got a good LSAT score. Law school is a joke, and so is most of law practice.
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Justin
Jul 25, 2008 6:01 AM CST
Joe-
I worked my butt off in undergrad, had tons of extracurriculars, but still could not get into a top tier school (University of Texas didn’t take me, but did take minority students with the same or lower credentials- I love equality). I’m at a Tier 3 school and, like you, will still graduate with over 150000 in debt. That’s the problem with law school- even the less exceptional schools tend to have high tuition. I’ve resigned myself to finding a government job so that I can take advantage of the Income Based Repayment. Thankfully, in interning for the U.S. Attorney’s Office I’ve found its work I enjoy, and work I’m pretty decent at.
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You Poor Thing...
Jul 25, 2008 6:15 AM CST
Worked your butt off, did you? You poor thing. It’s terrible to have to work hard. Not that anyone else would know just how hard YOU worked. $150,000 in student loans? Care for any sick relatives while you were in school? Have a hard time balancing your studies with your work with the poor, or the juvenile justice system? Or are those loans because all you did was study?
My Mom worked 70 hour weeks for decades to pay her bills and feed her kids. She was able to quit her second job when she hit 65, now that she’s making $12.50/hour.
When you get that posh job that you earned “working your butt off” for THREE LONG YEARS, just make sure some of those people who work their butts off their whole life are on your pro bono list.
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Hope to Have, and Soon
Jul 25, 2008 6:19 AM CST
Justin: I’m sorry that you went to a third tier school and took out over $150K in loans, but you should have done your homework. Knowing that Tier 3 graduates struggle, at times, to find work, you didn’t HAVE to go to law school.
Does that mean that schools should charge less? Probably not. Most schools are profit centers, and are free to exploit demand for their services. Likewise, qualified law students-whether qualified by the name on their diploma, or relevant bullets on their CV-should choose the job that’s right for them.
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BP
Jul 25, 2008 6:21 AM CST
poovie -
All of this banter is silly. Value of a law grad is a factor of market forces - nothing else. No sense in whining about it. I am a grad of Tier Three school and I have fought my way to where I am. Do not get mad because you and I couldn’t get in to a better law school, go prove yourself to be the lawyer you think you are. Money will follow. Your whining is an indication the market just might have properly judged you.
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Trevor
Jul 25, 2008 6:43 AM CST
Lets be honest, our profession is marred by a meaningless ancient hierarchy and that’s life. Except in uncommon circumstances, the nobility of the top 10 and the knights of T1 largely do not care for or respect the surfs and peasants of T2-4. For whatever reason, maybe just way to retain power at the top, there is the impression that a Harvard grad is a better lawyer that anybody else. This is not true; I’ve known some of these elite grads and I have seen them at work while I was working for a judge (needless to say, without looking at their profiles I could not tell their quality of work apart from a T4er.) On average the only discernible difference I see between the so called legal nobility and legal peasants is the fact the former either aced an abstract test (LSAT) or had inside help that allowed them to get in. However, that difference, even without the subsequent legal ability, means everything to the profession.
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MIckey
Jul 25, 2008 6:50 AM CST
Poovie sounds like another REPUBLICAN! Why not just that these lawyers are whining because they are from a A NATION OF WHINERS?
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Inexperience hurts
Jul 25, 2008 6:54 AM CST
“Taught these qualities.”
Take this from an evening law student going into his final year who is a management consultant by day—these qualities do not exist based on GPA or anything else. They’re experiential qualities, and large firms should look more towards experienced students, rather than people that took the path to law school directly from undergrad. Lets face it, that first job out is an adjustment, and turnover is always high. The first job is where people learn basic professional skills and behavior, let alone the bigger picture items that the author of that paper postulates “can be taught.”
On average, people with no professional experience, regardless of whether or not they’re at the top of their HYS class, are not worth the money they’re being paid.
I’ll put on my flame suit for the beating I’m probably going to take from, well, the group I just described. I think I’m okay with that because I’m professionally past the “my law school is better than yours, good luck finding a job” phase. That, and I already have a career path that I’m happy and comfortable working toward.
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Ronnie
Jul 25, 2008 7:04 AM CST
I LOVE these posts! Nothing brightens my Friday morning better. I love the “I love equality” comments from Justin—boy didn’t I get that in law school. “Well, the only reason you got into a T14 like this was because you’re black AND a woman. And you’ll have an easier time getting a job too because of it.” SPARE ME! I don’t know the grades or qualifications of every non-minority, nor do I care. We’re here now, let’s do our best. I worked my tail off in law school; had a couple of deaths in the family—life happens. So maybe my grades were only B+ and not A- (which was true), but it made a world of difference in getting that high-end job. I owe $200,000 in law school debt, and have no qualms about it, because I knew what I was getting into from jumpstreet. It gets paid monthly; I make $80k doing domestic, and I’m silly happy in my job. To each his own. Happy Friday everyone!!
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BC
Jul 25, 2008 7:06 AM CST
Iwent to a bottom ranked law school, and my loans are $150,000. I knew that paying off those loans would be difficult unless I graduated in the Top of the class. I didn’t. And after the first year, I almost dropped out based on a cost-benefit analysis. But, I stayed in, tried to get my grades up so that I would fit into the Cravath model eventually, and faced the reality that I, like most other law grads, will be paying off my loans for years. Will I ever be wanted by big law…who knows. Do I want the Cravath model to implode…debatable. I think I am capable of doing the work at big law, the money would come in handy, . At the same time, though, big clients want the best and the brightest that they can afford, and without the client backing, the firms would lose money, and they wouldn’t be able to pay as much.
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Justin
Jul 25, 2008 7:07 AM CST
Hope to Have…,
Well, just so you know, as an undergrad I worked two part time jobs, always took the most classes allowed, and took summer school every summer so I could graduate on time. As a law student I’m volunteering at the U.S. Attorney’s office, helping to keep crack and coke and meth dealers in prison, and substitute teaching at inner city high schools. Oh, and by the way, I’ve never made more than 7.50 an hour in my life. I feel for your mother, its a tough life out there, and its my sincere hope that I’m never put in a situation to raise kids on a single parent income. My goal is to be a prosecutor, it doesn’t get much more pro-bono than that. Prosecutors, despite some of the liberals’ groaning, keep the bad guys off the streets so that maybe people like your mother can get through life without being accosted or worse.
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Jonathon
Jul 25, 2008 7:18 AM CST
Been practicing for 40 years now in both large and small firms. What matters for getting a job, in order of importance:
1. Who you know (I don’t care if you are number one at Harvard, we are hiring the relative or that partners friends children). Anyone can be trained, it just matters how good the firm trains its associates.
2. After who you know, comes grades. The threshold is a 3.0, below that, it’s going to be tough, no matter where you graduated. Adding to the +3.0, you need to be on law review. No one cares about Moot Court, unless you are doing some small criminal law work. But I always tell law students to do something they are passionate about, so if that’s moot court, so be it.
3. The school you went to. For large firms, if you are outside the top 10 law schools (T14 is meaningless, it’s T10, after 10, you are with everyone else) and if you are not in the top 10% at all other schools, then it’s going to be tough to get a big firm job. Even with a 3.0 and law review, you need to have a strong contact or forget it.
-So this has been my experience from working in the legal field for quite a while, probably too long at this point. There are plenty of legal jobs out there if you are willing to work at a firm that may be on the bottom of your list. You can always move up, and let me tell you what beats all those three items I listed above, Bringing in Business! If you bring in business, you won’t have to worry about anything.
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the lobby
Jul 25, 2008 7:21 AM CST
I agree with Inexperience hurts. I spent my first year of law school at a top 20 major university in a small town. I had exceptionally smart and motivated classmates, but I hated every minute of it because it was all study and no real experience. There was nowhere to get experience. The professors were all pure academics who hadn’t actually practiced for years. I transferred to a lower private T1 in a big city and instantly felt more comfortable. My new classmates were just as smart and motivated, yet they wondered why I would give up a spot at the old school for a spot at the new school. It was simply for the practical experience. I had plenty of “academic” professors but also adjunct professors who were partners from large firms and associates from small firms, etc. I clerked at five different places in two years, often at the same time. I did manage to find some time to study, but it was the experience that meant the most.
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plenty of practice
Jul 25, 2008 7:22 AM CST
The real problem of the cravath model is that every year the big firms hire a bunch of kids, then they work them to death for about five years until they burn out, then the majority are denied partnership track, and then they never find work that pays as well as they made at the beginning of their career.
i
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S.M.
Jul 25, 2008 7:23 AM CST
Justin,
I’m a Mexican-American woman that got into UT-Law. I had a great LSAT score and great honors undergraduate work at UT-Austin. I was earning $11 an hour as a law clerk runner back in 1999 as an undergrad at UT. I didn’t have to load up on classes to graduate in time. Was undergrad that tough for you? If it was, then you would not have made it at UT Law.
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HT
Jul 25, 2008 7:24 AM CST
There is a lot of whining on this page. I went to a law school (definately not a top law school) and graduated in top 3 in the class almost two years ago. I did not take any loans out to go to this law school and would not have went if I needed to I have been at the high end of the salary scale since day 1 and really have a very hard time understanding why someone would take out $150k (if they are going to complain about it) in loans to graduate low in the class. You might have wanted to do your homework before you went to such a law school and probably cut you losses when it became apparent you would not be top of the class. However, at the same time I have many friends that were in the bottom of my class and within a year got their shit together and are paid now a little less than me. These guys started out lower but worked hard and got a niche and moved up fast and never worked a day in law school. Probably because they did not sit around crying about not making $120k a year. The high associate salaries are definately necessary with the increase in gas prices and the fact that filling up my Ferrari up with gas is about a $100 a tank now. I think there are a lot of communists on this thread as it sounds like people think there should be equality in the pay scale. Maybe these people should relocate to Venezula, China or Cuba as I here there is a lot of equality in the lawyer salaries in those countries.
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Jonathon
Jul 25, 2008 7:27 AM CST
And one other thing to add to that list above, yes, is experience. Please go to a school that offers a co-op program. It would be nice to hire a grad with that additional experience for once.
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porp
Jul 25, 2008 7:39 AM CST
Justin needs to get over the racist chip on his shoulder. Should fit in well in the Bush justice department though.
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Inexperience hurts
Jul 25, 2008 7:40 AM CST
Jonathon, if you’re looking to hire experience, look at evening programs. Most of those students have all day to get experience, usually broken into two groups. The first didn’t really have much of a career when they started law school, so they might have quit and have done a series of clerkships or other law-related jobs. The others came in with careers and are probably still moving up where they are, while completing their studies at the same time.
The former will have direct experience, the latter mostly indirect, but generally demonstrate success in their current profession.
The biggest thing for them, if I have anything in common with my evening classmates, is that we’re looking for a seasoned environment when we graduate, which makes our current fields attractive. Making the jump to a big law firm means being given typical first year tasks which are generally designed with the immature, never-had-a-job first year in mind.
Law school is challenging and will ultimately be very rewarding for me in many ways, but I’m personally hesitant to jump into an environment where I’m challenged less than I am in my current professional life (regardless of whether I’m putting in more hours, time does not necessarily equate to challenge).
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RICH SOB
Jul 25, 2008 7:45 AM CST
Any of you whiners want to was and wax my fleet of private jets? I do Personal Injury Law and got my law degree from a Cracker Jacks Box…if you work hard, it doesn’t matter where you went to school. Don’t balme others for your lack of drive. WAA WAAAA!!!!
Give me a break!
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Michigan Law Grad
Jul 25, 2008 7:47 AM CST
I don’t believe the Cravath model is going anywhere anytime soon at BigLaw. When I interviewed at Cravath (NYC office), I recall the interviewing partner beaming when I told him I “chose” Cravath because it is America’s finest law firm. I did not go on to work there but ended up at another BigLaw firm in L.A., and I had under a 3.0—but then again everyone at my school with a brain got into BigLaw. Those years are past but I have to say for those of you who were not as fortunate as I was to attend a top tier school, if you cannot get a job, then do everything possible to open up your own shop after passing the bar. You will struggle, but if you find a good mentor to associate yourself with (e.g., rent space from a well-established smaller firm), then you should do just fine in the long run (while picking up referrals). It’s all about receiving sound legal training, period.
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Jonathon
Jul 25, 2008 7:47 AM CST
inexperience hurts- I know exactly what you mean, where I am now, you would be given greater responsibility based on additional experience.
However, some big firms will place those students with ones straight out of law school with hardly no legal experience. Seems odd to me.
Remember everyone, a law degree will serve you will no matter what you decide to do. However, going into finance/ business, is probably more rewarding and less hours. I would never change my path, but people should know that you don’t have to be a lawyer, you could do quite a lot and your JD will look pretty good.
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Slyvanian Frog
Jul 25, 2008 7:52 AM CST
I know one person at a T5 who might be a better attorney than one person who went to Harvard.
Therefore, it is clear that all of this hierarchy in law schools, etc. is meaningless.
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BP
Jul 25, 2008 7:53 AM CST
Goodness this is much ado about nothing. If the Harvard grad is a bad lawyer, she/he will eventually lose their job. It is not like big law hangs on to losers. They have to set some kind of hiring criteria consistent with their client’s expectations. If there ilk are not “scarce”, they would not fetch a premium rate and be able to pay high starting salaries.
Great lawyers make rain. Great lawyers make great money. Great lawyers can work where ever they want. I do not care where you go to law school, if you develop into a great lawyer with a great book of business you can go where ever you want, when ever you want. If any of you are such hot stuff, prove it. Create your own destiny rather that waiting around for some group of old lawyers at big law to crown you.
If you can’t make rain or you are not a great lawyer, then get realistic about your lot in life.
Do not whine because you are now a victim of your own unrealistic expectations.
I
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Inexperience Hurts
Jul 25, 2008 7:54 AM CST
Jonathon—I think your overall message is absolutely correct, people should do what they’re passionate about doing and would actually enjoy. After all, we’re going to spend a lot of our time doing these things, right?
Good to hear that some places are recognizing background experience and actually using it. I’m open to a position like that and realize that there’s going to be some “starting over” involved, but my biggest fear is that I take the bait and walk into an environment that is actually no different for me than if I went to law school right out of undergrad.
I’m not hell-bent on Big Law as much as I’m not hell-bent on staying in management consulting. If I had to shamelessly ask for your experience here, are bigger or smaller firms my better bet given what I’ve described?
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Anne
Jul 25, 2008 7:55 AM CST
Isn’t it funny how Average Joe immediately got under people’s skins? There’s hope for us out there. I would be worried if the follow-up comments agreed with Average Joe.
Average Joe, and others like him, learn from many of the comments after your entry because they are all drenched in reality. There’s no “right” to a high salary just because you are a lawyer, just as true is that there is no best way to practice law. It’s a diverse profession with the same complexities that exist in other professions. I think that lawyers focus on themselves too much, particularly where they went to school. The longer you practice, the less the early years mean and the more your reputation matters.
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Jim
Jul 25, 2008 8:03 AM CST
poovie - you can’t spell either. It’s certainly, not “certianly”
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Eric
Jul 25, 2008 8:05 AM CST
Again, this article demonstrates the ABA’s emphasis on big corporate law firms and the whining of sell-out associates. I went to a good Midwestern state law school, graduated in the top third of my class, had about $40K in loans (15 years ago), and had no assistance other than my own employment. I’ve spent most of my career practicing public interest law or union side labor law-not huge $, but i’m certainly comfortable. My viewpoint about salaries and practicing law still hasn’t changed since law school-you choose your job, your profession, and the law you want to practice. If you fail to consider the consequences prior to that choice (high salary, high debt, and no life), shame on you. There are other ways to do law school and other avenues to choose to graduate without an astronomical debt burden-which I believe represents the majority of my law school class, and the majority of practicing attorneys. ABA-it would be nice to see a change of focus to this majority.
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Jonathon
Jul 25, 2008 8:10 AM CST
I think you are in an interesting situation that can work very well for you.
You will probably have more luck in entering at a more “experienced level” at a larger firm or as in house counsel for a consulting co, corp…
The trick is, you need to find a firm that needs your experience. They are out there as well.
For example, if your consulting overlaps with a specialized litigation that the firm does, then you may be able to squeeze yourself in there. I would suggest researching firms that have practice areas which overlap your past consulting experience. From there, essentially sell and market yourself to the firm like you would for any other job.
If you can demonstrate how your experience will be an asset, then you will be all set. I know, easier said than done, but isn’t that the way it is for everything.
good luck
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not so bad
Jul 25, 2008 8:13 AM CST
Law school was easy compared to engineering school, working, the lives of my neighbors, etc. While in LS I could go biking, play hoops, drink all night, skip class and generally do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, except for exam time (actually, I skipped a mid-term to go to Europe on a cheap fare). I did a cost-benefit analysis before going to LS and figure it would be about 10 yrs before I broke even - ended up being 12 years. Now it’s all good. Stop your whinning.
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Dan
Jul 25, 2008 8:14 AM CST
I’ll never understand this “biglaw” mentality… Why would I go to a school that’s going to give me $150,000 or above in loans, so i can work for a firm that will burn me out in a few years doing a job I hate?
I went to a T2 school. I have less than $60K in law loans (plus another $10K from undergrad), because my school was… OMG… Reasonably priced!!! My school didn’t have class rank, so I don’t know what mine was. It also didn’t have GPA, so I can’t tell you what that was, either.
What I can tell you is that the school places a heavy emphasis on community service and practical experience. People in our clinics are closing multi-million dollar real estate deals for charities sitting across the table from partners at big law firms. Not only does serving the community get us experience and a good feeling, it puts us right in front of the people we want to work for, and like several people have said, it’s having the contact that gets you in.
I now have a job with a good firm in the city I’ve lived in for 10 years, I can support my family, I’m home for dinner, and I have free time to do what I want.
The Cravath model works because there are law students—- most of whom have never had a real job in their lives—- who think that money is everything.
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associate
Jul 25, 2008 8:20 AM CST
Eric,
While I appreciate your point about taking “the slow road” with a cheaper, lower ranked school and working in small firms where you can have a life, you’re dead wrong on everything. You graduated 15 years ago. Law school was dirt cheap. I graduated 3 years ago from one of the least expensive state schools around. My tuition started at 12k and more than doubled by the time I had finished. And that school was still the cheapest around. What part time job are you going to get around law school where you can make over 20k/yr? Debt is now part of being a lawyer.
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poovie
Jul 25, 2008 8:37 AM CST
PK,
You got me all wrong. I graduated from a top tier east coast law school. I make more than I deserve. I was just commenting on the sweet little pompous and clueless “not your average Jerk” Oh. . . I mean Joe. Oh, and I am most certainly NOT a republican
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bezo
Jul 25, 2008 8:47 AM CST
I enjoy reading these posts and laugh out loud at many of you. I have now spent 20 years in the practice of law—first as a partner at an AMLaw 100 firm and now, more importantly, as a client. Here is what really counts—can you get me the results I want in a cost efficient manner. If so, I will come back to you. If not, I won’t use you again. As for the Cravath model, I will not hire new associates at $300 or more (I am in Houston so we have these price levels) or really anything under a 5 year associate for those rates because they are not worth the cost. I can hire outstanding trial partners all day at $350 per hour who can deliver results. Big Law is pricing themselves out of the market and will be in a dire situation as more companies wake up and decide not to pay these prices anymore (unless—I have a bet the company case and need to CYA and hire the top firm).
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Mark
Jul 25, 2008 9:03 AM CST
I just graduated in May from a law school ranked in the 50’s. I might be called a “have-not” graduate. But I don’t see it that way.
Yes, I’m $180,000 in debt from college + law school—even though I went to the University of Michigan for college and paid in-state tuition. And no, I don’t have a job. Sadly, I was even on a journal and had second interviews at a couple major firms. But I missed out. Oh well.
That said, I don’t regret law school. My debt might seem huge, and my starting salary will probably be pretty small. But in the long run, I am quite certain that I’ll be better off economically than I could have been had I simply earned a B.A.—even from the University of Michigan. I figure that if I can start at $50,000, I can probably reach $100,000 within 5 years. And maybe $150,000 within ten years. If I can work for 20 years making even $150,000, that will likely be far more than I could ever make with a B.A.
Sure, I could be ruminating for the rest of my life about what could have been. I could endlessly think about the negative—about how I came so close to earning three times what I will end up making in my first year. But that wouldn’t be productive. And I would forget that my law degree is still worth it.
One last thought. I’ve thought about the fact that even if I don’t end up practicing law at all (e.g., if I were to fail the bar), I still firmly believe my law degree was worth the time and money. Not only have I learned a hell of a lot, and become a more precise and critical thinker, but let’s not forget that most non-lawyers are pretty impressed by a law degree. Even in NYC, where I live, and even from a law school ranked in the 50’s, this will still be true.
The bottom line is that if I’m able to take a step back and stop comparing myself to the “haves”—even though it’s hard sometimes, especially b/c I almost gained membership myself—I can see that I’m in a pretty good position.
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RES
Jul 25, 2008 9:07 AM CST
Unfortunately-or fortunately- the Cravath model is accurate. Students who go to the top ten law schools-even those who finish in the bottom quarter-are simply better lawyers in the long run. Last year, I went back to my class reuinion at Michigan Law School and after 30 years out what most impressed me was how well virtually all of my classmates had done in various areas of the practice-not just BigLaw. (As an aside, this was equally true for my classmates who were women and minorities) I fervently believe, after over 30 years in the legal trenches, that recruiters are better off recruiting someone from the bottom of the class at a top tier law school than someone at the top of a second or third tier school.
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Bill
Jul 25, 2008 9:11 AM CST
Hey RES, did you ever stop to consider that maybe all of your classmates, even the ones who only managed to finish in the bottom 10% of their class, are doing so well because they had so many opportunities given to them right out of the gate?
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Legal Eagle
Jul 25, 2008 9:11 AM CST
Nothing wrong with the Cravath model in our capitalist society. Sure the profession suffers but that ship sailed long ago. Do your part to tip the balance back to making law a respectable profession (read: quit whining on blog sites for starters) As a Black man from a tier 2 law school (with good grades and law review) who worked and succeeded at the top BigLawFirm in Chicago, I’m here to tell you that nothing will get you farther ahead than working hard and playing the “game” in this Cravath system. When I left BigLaw to go in-house, I had enough money to pay off loans and reduce all debt to zero and then pursue my passion—practice in-house and coach soccer part-time at local HS. Learn to play the game and try to retain a little dignity along the way. And for goodness sake stop whining, you’re emabrrassing your albeit anonymous selves.
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Mat
Jul 25, 2008 9:16 AM CST
Porp,
How is it racist for Justin to point out that he was displaced by minority students with lower numbers? Please explain.
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Mark
Jul 25, 2008 9:22 AM CST
RES—
I agree generally that the top law firms are better off recruiting (any) graduates from, say, top ten law schools. Just getting into a top ten law school (especially these days) is an amazing achievement. It takes not only a great LSAT score, which indicates very high intelligence, but a great undergraduate record usually from a college that was itself quite hard to get into. So, I agree, generally.
I think you’re sort of missing the point of the article, however. The point of the article isn’t to claim that firms like Cravath will ever begin to look at 2nd tier grads. Rather, it’s that there are a heck of a lot of lesser firms (say, the non-top-50 firms) that are finding it more and more unsustainable to pay what Cravath can and at the same time retain high per partner salaries. And I’m sure you can appreciate the fact that the lateral market is much different than it was even 15 years ago. Even Cravath now hires lateral partners—which it had literally never done before the ‘90s. The point is that lesser law firms can’t have it both ways. They can’t keep paying what the super-premium firms pay and keep per-partner earnings up enough to prevent their most valuable partners (those in the so-called “marquee practice areas”) from bolting to other firms. Hence, what the author here is discussing—which is that lesser firms focus on a slightly different business model.
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Anonymous
Jul 25, 2008 9:26 AM CST
Well good for YOU, HT. Some of us DON’T come from money & had no choice but to take loans. In fact, I was nearly to the point of having to become a stripper/resort to crime just to pay school bills. Most girls in my hometown married young & now have at least 1 child, often more. They also have a rough time trying to care for them (most live w/their parents or in a trailer). It would have been a waste of my time NOT to go to law school since I didn’t put in so much effort in high school & college grades to go right back to an area I hated.
The Cravath model is so classist, I don’t even acknowledge those who live by it. It reminds me of a clique of 7th graders who think they’re SOOOO cool b/c they have the most expensive clothes & biggest homes never mind that their PARENTS paid for it. Unlike these little babies, I (who started as an evening student in her law school—inexperience hurts is right about me, I left a law firm to attend school far away) & plenty of others actually EARNED our way in instead of buying it w/our parents’ $ or status. I also left the snobbery of the T1 crowd in middle school. I never wanted a big firm job & have actually started forging my own way, even getting cases in areas your average new lawyer would never get. I even got a partnership in an up & coming entertainment company, again something most of you newbies don’t get. If you’re actually capable & go with your strengths, GPAs & your school mean nothing. For instance, I & anyone not from $ will also be a far superior public interest lawyer b/c of actually LIVING in situations that clientele experience, hence getting far better rapport w/clients than a Harvard law grad for all his empathy.
I think the first step is knowing what YOU want to do, figuring out how to get there (network w/others doing the same thing, convince others you want to work in that area regardless of the lowly position you’re applying for), finding that job that makes you happy & making the most of what you’re doing. I started in my company as the CEO’s exec asst & still put in work to get us where we want to go. I won’t say it’s easy but neither is life & I have no tolerance for those who whine & moan about their situation but do NOTHING about it and just accept the status quo.
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Shazam
Jul 25, 2008 9:39 AM CST
Hey Res,
I’ve worked with and met recent Michigan Law grads. I can’t say I’ve been impressed at all.
Recruiters are interested in getting hardworking drones willing to put in the hours so the partners can make more money. Getting a kid who graduated in the top of their class from a T2 or T3 school tells the recruiter that the candidate is a hard worker.
On a side note: I think the “whiners” need to understand why they went to law school. Hopefully it was because they wanted to practice law. If you do something you love and work hard at it, the benefits will come. Sometimes people are better off when they don’t receive things on a silver platter. Just go out there and hustle and find a niche.
For all the posters who seem to gave a sense of entitlement and lack of sympathy—I don’t know if there is anyway to respond to that level of immaturity. But, from reading the posts, it seems like we have a few bitter BigLaw burn outs.
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Shazam
Jul 25, 2008 9:41 AM CST
Hey Mark,
I had a high LSAT score and I would NOT say it is a sign or test of intelligence. It’s not an IQ test, it is a reading comprehension and logic test. That’s all.
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mid city lawyer
Jul 25, 2008 9:44 AM CST
I’m a recent law grad practicing in what would be considered a small firm nationally, but is one of the “BigLaw” firms in my mid-sized city in the South.
What’s interesting to me is that much of the same (bitter) discussion reflected in the comments gets played out even here with firms like mine (who I’m sure Cravath would consider beneath their notice), which consist mostly of grads from our state’s T1 law school. The T3 and T4 grads talk about how they have “real life experience” and aren’t just “academic” lawyers and, for some of them-particularly older people embarking on second careers- it’s true. But for a lot of the “kids” graduating from these places, especially from the bottom half of their class, there is a real, marked difference in the quality of their legal work. It’s not even a question of intelligence or legal acumen so much as it is one of ambition, drive, and the accompanying perfectionism that motivates a person to get into a T1 law school in the first place. So yes, it makes a difference, and if you think it doesn’t…well, maybe this isn’t the career for you.
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