Law Schools
Dean Complains About ‘Glut of Law Schools’
Posted Jun 17, 2008 9:11 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
News that the ABA has accredited 200 law schools raises issues about whether “more is better,” according to an Associated Press news analysis.
The story reports that the number of students enrolled in law school is at an all-time high, even as jobs can be difficult to find. Said Makau Mutua, interim dean of the University at Buffalo Law School, ''There's no question that we simply have a glut of law schools.”
Law professor William Henderson of Indiana University warns that a law degree does not necessarily translate into high salaries. While top firms paid a median $145,000 in starting salaries last fall, overall the median salary for new lawyers was $62,000, according to figures from NALP.
''I think we have this fundamental disconnect between images of lawyers in the popular media, in the courtroom dispensing justice, where everyone seems prosperous and well paid,'' Henderson told AP. ''The reality is for a lot of people, law school is a route to trying to start your own private practice, and that's a very crowded business right now.''
Henderson says law schools engage in “massive exaggeration” of law graduate statistics. One set of numbers reports employment nine months after graduation, but fails to specify whether the grads are practicing law or driving cabs. He says auditors are needed to make sure law schools are consistent in the way they report statistics.
The story mentions a previous report in the National Law Journal that raised similar questions. The two most recent law schools to receive provisional accreditation were Elon University School of Law in Greensboro and Charlotte School of Law, both in North Carolina.
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Should Supreme Court Justices Be Able to Review News Accounts Before Publication?
Comments
anonymous
Jun 17, 2008 11:49 AM CST
Perhaps if law schools weren’t such cash cows because of the rules and regulations of ABA accredidation, there would not be so many law schools.
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Frstrated Grad
Jun 17, 2008 11:59 AM CST
Perhaps the ABA is committing misfeasance in approving all of these schools?
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Chris
Jun 17, 2008 12:57 PM CST
Perhaps the ABA should step up and enforce some of the regulations it likes to be so high handed about. How about a freeze on new lawshools and revoking the accredation on schools that aren’t making the grade. I’ve always believed that the higher ups in the ABA don’t really represent the profession well. This tends to prove it.
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Dave
Jun 17, 2008 3:57 PM CST
There are way too many law graduates. The high salaries that everyone talks about are a myth. It is a simple version of supply and demand. The supply side is up, the demand is down, hence the starting pay is weak. In smaller markets, nurses are making more money. It is tough to be representing computer geeks and others making twice as much as you…
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associate
Jun 18, 2008 8:21 AM CST
Dave, I have a buddy in a small town that represents nurses who make about 3x what he does. It’s rough out there indeed. He took a pay cut from his starting accountant position to become a lawyer and add 100k to his debt load. Interesting value proposition huh? 7 years in school to make 1/3 the money of someone with a 2 yr degree and work twice as many hours.
I’ve thought about being a nurse. Less hours, comparable pay, and hospitals who are equipped for obese patients or who focus on it will pay a premium for relatively young men who can lift the patients. It’s a problem with a lot of the younger women for many hospitals; they can’t physically move some (or many in the obese specializing hospitals) of the patients.
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Recent Grad
Jun 18, 2008 8:21 AM CST
Like the attendance requirement. I had one professor allow a student to not come to class all semester and then take the final because the student claimed “I can’t put up with my classmates stupidity.”
Not once was attendance ever mandatory at my school, yet everyone was allowed to take finals. This occurred during an ABA site visit!
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Jason
Jun 20, 2008 6:46 AM CST
Remember the schools that you would shut down would have affect those that need it most - minorities and under privileged. More educated people equals better fro everyone. What needs to slow down is the number of law students practicing law….there is Risk Management, Business Management, Journalism…etc etc…I personally manage contracts in an other than legal manner.
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CB
Jun 20, 2008 7:52 AM CST
I agree with the “cash cow” comment. The ABA needs to be MUCH more strict in its rules and rule enforcement with regard to how much of law students’ tuition money flies out of the law school to the university’s general fund. Making lower salaries wouldn’t be a big deal to most of us if we weren’t 100k in debt. The cost of law school is affecting the profession much more than the number of lawyers. There’s a LOT of room out there for good attorneys who can afford to charge their clients modest rates, but it’s real hard to be Atticus Finch with the fear and dread of huge student loan payments hanging over our heads.
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Jeremy
Jun 20, 2008 7:56 AM CST
In the spirit of honest disclosure, the ABA should provide potential law students with some sort of graduate salary breakdown. If provided with honest statistics, I may not have spent $150,000 for law school and continued in my engineering career.
The ABA must reevaluate its goals and ask itself if providing attractive fodder for more lawyers is beneficial to the legal industry as a whole. I submit that it is not, but only sets up thousands of young adults each year for financial failure.
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Amy
Jun 20, 2008 8:50 AM CST
The whole law school system needs to be revamped. The teaching methods are impractical and full of outdated theory. There are few practice-oriented classes. The statistics on graduation rates and salaries are grossly distorted. I think many law students go to law school thinking they will have a decent paying career (maybe not top salary, but certainly not $35K either), only to discover once they are in school and in debt that 1) it’s who you know that will get you a job; 2) most entry-level attorney jobs pay poorly; and 3) it may take 9-18 months to actually get a job. It took me 7 months to get a bad job fresh out of law school, even though I had a solid resume in a past career. I had no benefits and the pay was awful. I was stuck in that job for 1.5 years before I finally got lucky and was referred by a friend for a great job as in-house counsel at a really fantastic company. My choice of law school, GPA, and class-rank had no bearing. I just happened to get lucky by knowing the right person.
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Matt
Jun 20, 2008 10:27 AM CST
I have to agree with Amy. Not only is the law school system antiquated, but it is no longer aimed at producing high quality, thoughtful practitioners of law. There is almost NO emphasis on the practical necessities of working in the law field, and yet the vestiges of outdated and relatively useless theory still predominate much of the law school career. It was a real eye opener after graduating with very good grades (or so I thought), to have to struggle for months to find a job. On top of that, the pay offered at the places I interviewed was almost laughable considering the $150,000 debt hanging over my head. The job I finally landed had nothing to do with GPA, class rank, or law school. It came down to a referral from a friend. I think that people debating on going to law school have to understand that going to school is only the first step and probably the easiest. The real test comes after graduation and the passing the bar exam.
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Damian
Jun 20, 2008 10:52 AM CST
The ABA has a conflict of interest. They get more dues (i.e., money) from, and more political/lobbying power from, an ever-increasing supply of lawyers. At the same time, they are the gatekeepers for accrediting law schools. The ABA wants more money and power and doesn’t care about the well-being of the 90% of law school graduates who can’t find gainful employment or pay off their school loans.
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rinaldo
Jun 20, 2008 11:18 AM CST
What I don’t understand is that the AMA is somehow able to protect its profession but the ABA isn’t. There are clearly more people qualified to be doctors than are actually let in the profession. Perhaps a residency-like requirement would work. There needs to be more weeding at every stage of the system: less schools, more forced withdraws, higher bar failure rate, mandatory and substantial internship/externship programs. I read a stat somewhere the other day that 50% of attorneys no longer practice after 5yrs of practice- that shows that we are producing around double the amount of lawyers that we need every year. From my view every law school should be required to show the salary and profession of every grad from the last graduating class and the anticpated debt load…or at least the median salary, rather than the mean- which is always skewed
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jonathan Edwards
Jun 20, 2008 11:57 AM CST
many complaints seem centered on the cost of school vs salaries. I wonder about total debt load. Sure, I have $90,000 in debt from school, but currently only owe $66,000 on my home, and have no car payments because I own two older vehicles. I have some credit card debt, too, also associated with school and trying to live during school, but I think total debt is what crunches us, not just school debt. I suspect that too many come out of school and immediately add to their debt with nicer cars, etc. Okay, I will be driving a 20+ year old truck to work (huge carbon footprint) but since my total family debt is well below $200K, I am not very concerned about school debt. And there are jobs out there. Some you may have to relocate for, of course.
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MN
Jun 20, 2008 12:37 PM CST
What is all this whining about? I graduated from law school 2 years ago and have no debt, own a Ferrari and a six figure job and have had this since graduation. All I hear on this site is a bunch of whiners that want money handed to them. You knew the deal going in or you were just some moron that forked over $100k for something without investigating it. If you want money, figure out how to do something of value instead of being of low worth. You insult other professions, such as nurses; however, those professions are paid more than you for one reason, they are more valuable than what you are currently doing. What you are currently doing is your choice. So make a change and shut up.
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Melissa
Jun 20, 2008 12:44 PM CST
There are way too many law schools, and the ABA should not be the body that oversees this any more. The ABA has a conflict of interest as one of the prior commenters said. Also, the ABA is doing a very poor job of representing the profession (the AMA does a heck of a better job representing doctors/medical profession.).
We don’t need 200 law schools in this country, and we definitely don’t need 10 more. There should be a PUBLIC law school in each state, and the number could go up depending on population. There’s no reason that a state like Ohio has 9—yes 9—law schools, given it’s population and size. California has way too many law schools. That state’s “baby bar” should be abolished and all of the unaccredited schools should be closed. You don’t need them. There are plenty of lawyers already.
I went to a top 25 school, and it’s rough enough out there for people who went to a top school. Why flood the market with lawyers when people can’t get jobs? And obviously, more lawyers doesn’t mean that the legal needs of the poor/indigent are going to be met.
The ABA, Concord (“Internet law school”), and California are irresponsible.
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Bill
Jun 20, 2008 1:00 PM CST
“Hi, Joan King!”
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Me
Jun 20, 2008 1:09 PM CST
To Jason (comment #7). I couldn’t disagree with you more. QUALIFIED minority and under privileged applicants will get into the top schools. These schools recruit them becasue then they get to say they’re diverse. If one isn’t qualified enough to get into what’s available it doesn’t mean they should open a sub par school for such people. It means those people should work harder to get into a more selective school or rethink their career choice.
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Brad
Jun 20, 2008 1:22 PM CST
I must be lucky. Only 4 years of my life wasted, 60 k in debt, to get a temp-job reviewing documents for $50k a year. At least the hours are decent. However, if I stayed on, pursued a MBA part time, I would be hgiher level management at the place I left for law school.
I really wish their was honesty in the reporting of statistics and job salaries. Unofrtunately, yo only get on these mailing lists AFTER being suckered in. In hindsight, I probably would have still gone, but I might have been more dedicated or thought twice maybe. Coulda woulda shoulda.
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TT
Jun 20, 2008 1:28 PM CST
Hey MN, you are unbelievably pompous! No one cares about your expensive sports car. If your even telling the truth, you must be extremely unintelligent to believe your case is the normal state of affairs. Pride cometh before a fall my friend and with your attitude, the fall will be a long way down. By the way, I have a great job and make plenty of money practicing money. I also don’t make light of others in less fortunate situations, live in the real world and realize the MAJORITY does not enjoy the luck I (and possibly you) have had. Supply and demand my friend - its a simple concept even you should be able to understand…..
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Brad
Jun 20, 2008 1:29 PM CST
MN, you are a disgrace. Not only do you fail at reading comprehension, you head is so far up your @$$ that even if you are telling the truth, youare so detatched from reality that you have no idea how lucky you are. I digress… I’m sure mom and dad’s hard work had much more to do with your success at materialism than your personality or knowledge. A ferrari? I pity you small p3nis and I pity the law firm that has a 2 year associate driving a ferrari.
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Mark
Jun 20, 2008 2:45 PM CST
The state of the legal profession is illustrated by some of the comments on this board: ” Less hours [sic], comparable pay, and hospitals who [sic] are equipped for obese patients or who focus on it will pay a premium for relatively young men who can lift the patients.” Is that even a sentence? Or how about “I really wish their [sic] was honesty in the reporting . . .”
I know this is a chat board and not an appellate brief, but if lawyers are too careless or too clueless to properly use “there” vs. “their” then we’ve obviously got subpar law schools churning out unqualified attorneys.
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law74
Jun 20, 2008 3:10 PM CST
I agree with MN (even if he is a pompous @$$.) If you want more money, figure out a way to make it. If you were bright enough to finish law school you should be bright enough to do this. Welcome to the free market.
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S
Jun 20, 2008 3:49 PM CST
None of these complaints are news. There have been too many lawyers for at least 25 years and the high salaries have been confined to graduates of the top schools and the top grads of the second tier schools since the 70’s, when high salaries for associates first came into vogue. Law school has long been used by liberal arts grads (including myself) to avoid the reality that a liberal arts degree doesn’t make the grad very marketable. However, I have never understood why people would borrow a lot of money, and spend 3 years of their lives, to go to a law school not in the top tier. What do they think is going to await them unless there’s a family business waiting to hire them? Yes it would help if the ABA did not accredit so many schools, or more to the point, yanked the accreditation of schools who can’t get more than half their grads past the bar exam, but all these facts are out there.
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MN
Jun 20, 2008 6:24 PM CST
Sure my dad may have paid for my legal education and got me my first job after graduation but that does not mean that you whiners can’t get out there and hustle and try to make some cheddar.
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TT
Jun 20, 2008 6:25 PM CST
Just what I thought, MN.
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Recent Grad
Jun 21, 2008 4:22 PM CST
Theory-based classes give you a full tool kit to teach you how to problem-solve when you are in an unfamiliar situation. They help you to read a form and figure out what goes in which box and how to file it, etc. Practical skills classes teach you a skill and often do not teach the theory behind it. So, while you may be very good at the skill right out of the gate, when you reach something unfamiliar, you are less likely to know what to do. Thus, theory-based learning at the top school is better and that is why they are the students firms seek most.
As to those who say that limiting the law schools hurts URMs, such thinking hurts URMs. The underlying assumption behind the statement is that URMs can’t get in to (and do well in top schools) so they need a hand out at a lower school. This assumption bleeds into the workplace and the public making it difficult for legitimately qualified and proven URMs to get past the stigma. Finally, law is high stakes, lowering the requirements is not in the interest of fairness and equal representation, instead it puts many people in a position where they’re likely to committ some serious malpractice.
Cut down the number of schools and make the education worthwhile.
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John H. Davidson
Jun 22, 2008 8:41 AM CST
In a 1981 speech, Prof Victor Li, then of the Stanford Law Faculty, asked: Where are we to put 30,000 new lawyers each year, and what is the meaning of so many lawyers for the substance of our legal system? Since 1981, the numbers have escalated, as the article in the ABA Journal higlights. Li’s question has not been seriously addressed.
Many law schools are already on some sort of de facto open admissions, and this condition will no doubt spread. Of course there is much to be said for maximum opportunity, free competition, and so forth. But how will the substance of our legal system be changed?
The ABA has a duty to lead this discussion.
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Caroline
Jun 23, 2008 7:32 AM CST
Perhaps if law schools told the truth when recruiting, there wouldn’t be as many people attending. Too bad they are only interested in money. I applaud the state of New York for adding new law schools in the greater New York area, particularly state schools, but generally speaking this problem would be solved if law schools were honest about the reality of being a lawyer. The problem isn’t how many there are, but the information they carefully choose to share.
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BC
Jun 23, 2008 9:11 AM CST
The actual numbers about practitioners and salaries are out there if you dig. People ignore them. No school is going to be the martyr that puts up neon signs reinforcing them so long as the profession and public remain hung-up on crackpot rankings. And even if a number of schools did, I’m not convinced enrollment (and subsequent graduating) statistics would change. If you look at the undergraduate backgrounds of most attorneys, it is unremarkable that the realities of practice elude them. You’re low-math, unsure of your opportunities (because, after all, what is your marketable skill with a ___ arts degree?) - what’s the worst that can happen in law school? A JD has become something of a default for kids who want to maintain or improve the standard of living their parents have given them. I don’t mean that as insulting. It’s nice to spend at least some of your life working on something personally interesting (and perhaps slightly indulgent). Unfortunately, an insignificantly small proportion of people in those comparatively alluring fields make any money. The focus of higher education has shifted away from learning to do something that can earn one a living. Yes, there are boatloads of attorneys getting churned out. However, this is but a symptom of an issue which impacts more than the legal community, and roots itself in lackadaisical attitudes about following your heart and ignoring the real world when choosing a path out of high school.
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ugh
Jun 23, 2008 7:52 PM CST
these stories, and especially the comments that invariably follow, are always good for a laugh.
everybody p!ssing and moaning about how unfair life is, but seem to have plenty of time to waste posting tedious, long-winded comments about it all.
guess what? if you put 1/2 as much work into being a good lawyer, the rest takes care of itself. i went to a 4th tier school and you won’t hear me complain!
i guarantee if the law schools were up front about job and salary prospects people would STILL be lining up.
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