Careers
Ex-Associate, Now a Journalist, Tells of Cravath ‘Sweat Shop’
Posted Jun 15, 2009 12:21 PM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
Lawyer-turned-investigative journalist Gerald Posner says he always wanted to be a lawyer, but life as an associate at Cravath, Swaine & Moore soured him on BigLaw.
Posner spoke to Bitter Lawyer about his Cravath experience. It was a “sweat shop with a capital ‘S,’ ” he said. “I billed over 3,300 hours the first year, and I was not the highest biller in the firm. You had no life but the firm. The partners loved their practice, but that’s the only way you can stay at a place like that. Divorce was almost viewed as though an associate had made the decision to stay with the firm rather than have a personal life.”
Posner told Bitter Lawyer he became an investigative journalist “by accident.” While representing twins held in a Nazi concentration camp, he became an expert on Josef Mengele, known as the Angel of Death for human experiments he performed. Posner approached a publisher, hoping to parlay his knowledge into a book, and got the go-ahead. He enjoyed writing so much that he never went back to law practice.
Posner says his legal background gives him an edge as a reporter. “The major thing is that I’m not afraid of documents, after getting used to them in the antitrust litigation against IBM while at Cravath,” he told the blog. “So when I approached the JFK assassination, reporters would say there are tens and tens of thousands of pages of docs. And I’d think, ‘So?’ Also, nonlawyers tend to be more impressed with a legal degree than they should—it helps open up doors.”
Hat tip to Legal Blog Watch.
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Comments
Ha!
Jun 15, 2009 3:00 PM CST
“nonlawyers tend to be more impressed with a legal degree than they should—it helps open up doors.” God, if only this were true, maybe I wouldn’t have spent the two years (and counting) since graduating from a Tier 2 completely devoid of any employment whatsoever.
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B. McLeod
Jun 15, 2009 11:20 PM CST
If you roll it up like a newspaper, you can use it to push open the door to the outhouse.
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L. Awyer
Jun 19, 2009 6:31 AM CST
The reason I became a lawyer was to have options. Work yourself to death at BigLaw in NYC and make a pile of money, or hang a shingle in Smallville, go fishing every afternoon, and make enough to pay your modest mortgage. In a true sweatshop, you make peanuts and can’t quit. Stop whining about your six-figure salary job. If you don’t like it, quit and do something else just like the author.
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JGT
Jun 19, 2009 6:54 AM CST
Law degrees and law careers are a lot of work, but it is a choice you make - if your particular job is not working, try something else. The opportunities are wide ranging and varied - both tradtional and non-traditional- and there is more to practicing law than “BigLaw” in NYC - in fact, helping individuals and small businesses can be much more satisfying and just as profitable
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CJC
Jun 19, 2009 7:17 AM CST
I agree with the comments about options and choices, but still enjoy these stories as I had the option and made the choice to work in-house and out of NYC, and I can’t spell schedenfreuden.
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Marilyn Mann
Jun 19, 2009 7:51 AM CST
I am shocked, shocked to learn that Cravath is a sweat shop . . .
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Wha??
Jun 19, 2009 7:54 AM CST
I’m confused. To whom is L. Awyer speaking?
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Casey
Jun 19, 2009 8:10 AM CST
I believe L Awyer is talking to the author of the article, Posner. He’s saying Posner shouldn’t compare a big firm to a sweatshop. With a law degree you have options and both options lead to money, while in a true sweatshop you make little to no money and basically are a prisoner. At least that’s how I understood it….
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Casey
Jun 19, 2009 8:12 AM CST
Oh wait. I reread what he wrote.. I have no idea ?!?!?!
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JT
Jun 19, 2009 8:13 AM CST
“Schadenfreude” is the word - taking joy in another’s pain or discomfort. These posts always make me chuckle, as if the writer had no idea being a “Big Law” associate was going to suck. I don’t go fishing every afternoon, and I have something larger than a “modest” mortgage. But I have a wife, five kids, and a zippy IP practice in the Midwest. I haven’t billed more than 1850 hrs per year in a decade, and that’s plenty of work for me.
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former big law associate
Jun 19, 2009 8:25 AM CST
Yeah, it’s a lot of hours and pretty much all-consuming, but it’s a little offensive to compare making $$$$$ in a big law firm to a sweat shop.
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Malia
Jun 19, 2009 8:35 AM CST
Interesting—I enjoy the option of working for a small county doing a lot of their civil work. It is a nice 9-5 job with the occasional late night meeting and has great benefits. I have sick days, health insurance etc. I hear from my former law school friends who took BigLaw type jobs and I become so thankful that I am able to have a work-life balance.
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Steve Perkins
Jun 19, 2009 8:51 AM CST
ABA Journal took a potentially interesting story about career change, and a journalist using his law degree to “intimidate” documents out of sources (!)... and ABA slapped another generic “BigLaw is terrible!” veneer over it.
Number one, a sweat shop involves a bad job that you are trapped in. You’re not “trapped” in a six-figure job.. unless you’re too irresponsible to live modestly for a few years while repaying your school loans. Beyond that, you’re “trapped” only by your own greed and desire for toys.
Number two, the ABA has two main functions… (1) lobby for numerous political causes that have nothing to do its proper mission, and (2) serve as the gatekeeper and ethical measuring stick for the legal profession. The latter is most important… the ABA accredits new schools, and strongly influences professional responsibility rules.
With its right hand, the ABA has flooded the market over the past couple decades with new schools and new grads, carrying exploding levels of debt and desperation… compounded by new ethics rules shifting work offshore. With its left hand, the ABA says this is all terrible… and that “BigLaw” must be to blame!
Either the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, or the ABA is a schizophrenic or hypocritical organization. You want to write an article on the profession’s woes that is substantive and impressive for a change? Start in the mirror and write about these topics that the ABA hates discussing.
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Tired of the Same Discussions
Jun 19, 2009 8:59 AM CST
Why do all lawyers talk about BIG Law? I never worked for BIG Law. Although, I did work for MID Law (if that is a term, if not I call copyright!) in a state-wide firm of 80 lawyers.
Then, after seven years of practice and figuring out I wouldn’t and probably didn’t want to make partner, I hung out my own shingle doing insurance defense work. I have three associates. And, not one of my associates bills or works more than 1950 hours in any given year, and we all earn six figures. I am located in a suburb of Los Angeles, in a nice office with low rent. The key to my success has been to actively manage my overhead.
If you think that the only way you will be successful is if you make partner or work in BIG Law, you are unnecesarily putting yourself in a box. Think outside the box! (Again, as I mentioned I began my career in MID Law, perhaps because I didn’t have the grades or school pedigree to start in BIG Law. But, if I would’ve known then what I know now, I would have begun my career focused on starting my own practice from the beginning. Disclaimer: Running your own practice is not all fun, there are some sleepless nights and definitely stress. But at the end of the day I believe, for my personality type, I am much happier and better off).
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barbara res
Jun 19, 2009 9:14 AM CST
I am curious about the 3300 hours. From what I understand BigLaw expects something like 2000. Maybe this guy just burned himself. Why would anyone work 50% more than they are expected to? Maybe he was just getting ready to write his book and charge the client at the same time? Who knows but this story makes no sense.
Also, if you are a lawyer and want to be a lawyer, you don’t quit law cuz you don’t like the situation you are in. You change it. Go to a smaller firm, go to public service.
Frankly I think this is all a lot of BS
Also, if you think your law degree is worthless,than you were stupid to pursue it.
My degree is priceless as was my legal education.
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Yeah Yeah Yeah
Jun 19, 2009 9:24 AM CST
Hey, my degree isn’t priceless. I’d happily sell it for enough to quit this banal endeavor. Know any takers?
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Fred
Jun 19, 2009 9:33 AM CST
“From what I understand BigLaw expects something like 2000. ... Why would anyone work 50% more than they are expected to?”
Yes, generally biglaw firms require 2000 billable; some require more or extra hours of certain types of non-billable as well. Why would someone bill more? You’re missing the whole psycho-logy of biglaw. These people want to get the rock star recognition - they are gunning for partner and for whatever bonus they might get. Or, in some cases, they genuinely get off on the work they’re doing and are just very driven people.
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Hadley V. Baxendale
Jun 19, 2009 9:43 AM CST
Back to the substantive topic: One of the best investigative reporters of recent times, Clark Mollenhoff, had a law degree. He taught us (J-school at W&L) that all of the “secrets” are in documents and you need to know how documents work. Most secrets are in at least 2 documents, so if you know the process you can get one if the other has been destroyed or hidden. He used his legal training as a journalist. I have successfully used his journalism training as a lawyer.
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barbara res
Jun 19, 2009 9:46 AM CST
That is exactly my point. So why complain? I worked my ass off as a young apprentice in a different industry - and I got ahead. I got paid nothing for the amount of work I did.
So screw these people who take jobs they hate for big money and then complain.
Their greed is part of the problem. If new lawyers demanded a life and were willing to work for less money, that would be the norm.
Greed is what it is about. Greed and ego.
As far as Yeah etc. is concerned.
I feel sorry for you. How you have wasted your life! I hope it was your own money and not your parent’s money that you pissed away for nothing.
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Stunned
Jun 19, 2009 9:50 AM CST
Wait a second: BigLaw is a sweatshop? Working there is horrible, and the hours are long, and you have no personal life? STOP THE PRESSES! Gosh, if only there had been some way to foretell that it would be that way! If only there had been some warning, or some common knowledge, or maybe some common sense, perhaps this whole disaster could have been avoided. The horror, the horror…...
Google for “Biglaw sweatshop” gives me over 2700 hits. You’d think such a great investigative journalist could have unravelled this mystery a little sooner.
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William
Jun 19, 2009 9:51 AM CST
Wow. You’d really think many of you have never heard of simile or metaphor. Large firms are called sweatshops because they work you very hard and really do not much care about your well being. Are they like true sweat shops in third world countries? Of course not. But that is a good description of the psychological effect on a lot of junior associates many of whom really didn’t know what it would be like to work 14+ hour days most days of the year. There’s a big difference between being a law student and haering associates work hard. It’s another thing living it. Frankly, I enjoyed the hours (I usually billed in the 2500 range) and learned a lot. That said, I eventually left to be a general counsel at a cleint though as it did get old never eating dinner with the family. I can certainly see why a lot of people hate it and complain.
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yeah yeah yeah
Jun 19, 2009 9:55 AM CST
Ah Grasshopper…Life and Law are not the same. You should pursue a path that will enlighten you as to the difference.
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OhSeeLaw
Jun 19, 2009 9:57 AM CST
If I were IBM, I’d audit the firm’s time records for my case. 3300 hrs equates to 365 days/year at 9.04 per day. I agree with a prior post—he wrote his book while still on the clock.
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Nellie
Jun 19, 2009 10:28 AM CST
I’m an associate in a BigLaw firm and I love my work. Sometimes the hours are crazy, but never so much and so frequently that I hate my job. And, if I ever start hating to come in to work, I’ll quit. I’ve been at this firm for five years and I’ve socked away a nice chunk of change (still driving my same old beater from law school and until it dies on the freeway), so I have my F U account all squared if I ever need to use it. Planning is key.
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the new guard
Jun 19, 2009 10:57 AM CST
As someone who works in a “big law” firm as staff, I really can’t speak to the comments about whining young associates; the appropriateness of the term “sweat shop,” or how terrible the ABA is for even publishing this article. I will say that as someone who is about to dive headlong into tremendous debt to become an attorney, it’s refreshing to see someone successfully utilize the “options” about which I hear - especially considering the number of associates laid off this year. The job placement rate for undergraduates currently hovers around 20%. Who knows how many within that demographic are underemployed. Whatever you think of the guy or his opinion of Big Law, you can’t argue with someone’s feelings – especially when acting on them brought that person success.
Is this article really an assault on Big Law? By one man, maybe, but I don’t think that was the thrust of this piece despite the title - which obviously accomplished the writer’s task of getting your attention. As for the sweatshop comment, consider the audience of bitter lawyer, the source from which that quote came.
Since everyone else feels the need to unload their cynicism I feel obligated to say this: If you want to talk about the dynamic between young lawyers and big law, start by looking at the misery chronicled by ABA articles in the last nine months. The articles about en masse associate layoffs read like a police blotter. Can crotchety defenders of such firms dismiss that as a symptom of the economy or should they think about the fact that an assembly line approach to litigation might change what it means to be a professional for the next wave of attorneys? hmmmm…. that sounds like a much more interesting article.
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A Man Who Knows
Jun 19, 2009 11:15 AM CST
I’m amazed at all the false conclusions drawn here.
One person actually cites Posner as the author of the article. It’s actually an interview. Are you people so lazy that you can’t go to the source before firing off a comment?
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uh oh
Jun 19, 2009 11:46 AM CST
To quote a man who knows:
“One person actually cites Posner as the author of the article. It’s actually an interview. Are you people so lazy that you can’t go to the source before firing off a comment?”
this isn’t an interview, this is an article reporting on some other person’s interview with posner - how’s that for lazy?
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allsburg
Jun 19, 2009 12:21 PM CST
Cravath a sweatshop? 3,300 hours? Who would have guessed! Excellent investigative journalism! Maybe next you can write a piece about whether crap smells bad.
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Time Frame?
Jun 19, 2009 1:55 PM CST
According to his Wikipedia page, Posner stopped practicing at Cravath in 1980 and published his book on Mengele in 1986. I got the impression this guy recently left the law.
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A Man Who Knows
Jun 19, 2009 3:08 PM CST
@ Time Frame.
Read the darn interview, not some lazy rehash from the ABA.
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Peter N. Hillman
Jun 19, 2009 5:00 PM CST
Regardless Posner’s ill feelings about his time at Cravath, it obviously stood him in great stead. His books about the JFK and MLK assassinations are simply outstanding..the definitive works on those controversial subjects. Chalk a god deal of that up to superb legal training
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Jim
Jun 19, 2009 5:09 PM CST
I read the article on Bitter Lawyer last week. Interesting guy. Nothing wrong with being a little bitter about BigLaw. Cost of doing business, I guess.
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B. McLeod
Jun 19, 2009 10:00 PM CST
For the several readers bitching about the staff’s writing, this site is really akin to an Internet version of what we used to call a “clipping service.” For the most part, the writers are collecting news items they think might be of interest to readers, and giving only cursory summaries, along with links to the source materials.
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John Phillips
Jun 20, 2009 12:07 PM CST
3300 billable hours a year, huh? That’s a little over 9 hours per day every day of the year. I guess Cravath associates bill in 2-5 hour increments.
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Thankful It's Over
Jun 20, 2009 12:18 PM CST
“...nonlawyers tend to be more impressed with a legal degree than they should…”
How true! I guess I appreciate that people think a law degree (don’t say J.D. b/c they have no idea what that is) means something. When I can, I say, “Don’t be impressed.” An M.D., yeah, be wowed. A J.D., however…
#33: Shake it easy, buddy. Go find a sunset.
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George Sly
Jun 20, 2009 12:43 PM CST
I think the 3300 ours is either a misprint or hyperbole. However, I would point out that if you call three different clients in a six minute period, you have to bill .1 for each call. That’s .3 in the total billing even though it was actually six minutes total. Do enough of that in the course of year and you could have a couple hundred extra hours of billing, which is perfectly legitimate since you cannot bill in less than 1/10 of an hour increments.
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Joanne
Jun 20, 2009 3:17 PM CST
I live next door to a urologist in a private medical practice. When we first moved in to the neighborhood (in 1988), he came over to introduce himself. Told us he would be sending his son over to talk to us about becoming a lawyer. We told him save yourself the trouble, he shouldn’t be a lawyer, there are too many of us and it can be a hard life, but we would be sending our daughter over to talk to him about med school. He said save yourself the trouble, there are too many doctors (at least in urban areas) and he would never advise anyone to go to med school given the cost and grief involved. The guy down the street is an architect, he came over about then and said whatever you do, don’t let your kids become architects, the entire profession has been gutted by computer CAD programs and there’s no work for architects. My dentist says, don’t let your kids become dentists . . .
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B. McLeod
Jun 20, 2009 6:57 PM CST
And I don’t know why anyone would want to be a Navy diver.
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