Law Schools
Harvard Law to Job-Hunting Students: Don’t Panic
Posted Jul 16, 2009 6:30 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
Harvard Law School is advising students looking for jobs to avoid denial and panic—and come up with a Plan B.
The school dispatched its advice in a March 6 memo, Bloomberg reports. “Almost every day, there is news of law firms laying off attorneys, delaying start dates, freezing salaries and, in some cases, even rescinding offers,” the memo said. “Now is not the time for avoidance, denial or panic. Instead, keep a cool head and focus on the things that you can control.”
Mark Weber, Harvard law’s assistant dean for career services, told Bloomberg that the school is telling students to have a backup plan in their job search. “If you are looking in D.C., consider Baltimore or Richmond,” he said. “If you’re looking in Chicago, try Milwaukee and St. Louis, too. You need to be casting a wider net in this market.”
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Comments
yawn
Jul 16, 2009 6:49 AM CST
Network!
Seriously, Harvard law grads don’t have to worry about anything This is a non-story.
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Cynic
Jul 16, 2009 8:22 AM CST
Mark Weber’s comments, translated for T2 and below:
“If you are looking at NYC or Chicago, try looking at Burger King or Walmart.”
No need to panic, indeed.
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B. McLeod
Jul 16, 2009 9:53 AM CST
The scope of the placement problems is obviously very widespread, extending even to highly reputable schools with very upscale restrooms.
Wise deans and their placement officers are hustling to help hook graduates up with jobs. Schools that can find a way to help address this problem for their graduates will come out of this downturn with a competitive advantage (and higher in the rankings). Schools that can’t, not so much. Schools that don’t even try will have continuing fallout for years, because there will be whole classes that won’t even return calls to the endowment/alumni liason officers, except to express continuing anger. In addition to the near-term, direct rankings impact of the diminished placement, there will be a long-term endowment dead zone hitting ten years out, with resulting financial/budget impact on the rankings.
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Anonymous
Jul 16, 2009 11:22 AM CST
Brooklyn Law School should be added to that list. Lying to US News, continuing to falsify the career stats, when does the madness end? It’s always the middle/lower income students who don’t know better and undertake the massive debt that suffer. These schools are literallly destroying the lives of and taking advantage of students that don’t succeed. It is disgusting and shameful.
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James
Jul 16, 2009 11:49 AM CST
I’d say shame on the professors and school administrators who continue to market their ranked T4 clearing houses while bemoaning the fact that the rankings are biased against them.
There are a lot of things wrong with the rankings in US News but I have yet to see anyone propose some alternative that the profession will actually respect as a gage for where lawyers are doing their recruiting.
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Anonymous30
Jul 16, 2009 11:53 AM CST
This atricle is ridiculous and an insult to all T-2/T-3/T-4 graduates.
“These schools are literallly destroying the lives of and taking advantage of students that don’t succeed. “
This statement is accurate. I can attest first hand to it. Graduated law school a couple years ago from a T-4 (probably my own fault) and still not in a legal position. I passed the bar, too. Jobs are scarce and there is a trickle down effect. Those who are big law get laid off and go to mid-sized firms, or are paid to go to non-profits because their start dates have been deferred. Where does that leave us non-big-dog attorneys? Where do we go work? Working for a non-lawyer is difficult, especially after you have been trained in the profession. A lawyer does not want to leave the profession cold-turkey because then what happens when you’ve been gone for 3-years who is going to hire you then? When you have crazy law school debt you cant exactly work for free, either. I do not dismiss the fact that some people should not go to law school or should work harder or be more active in the law school community to get where they want to go, but as a practical matter that wont happen for every law student/graduate. These law schools should be ashamed of making graduates feeling awful about themselves, when all they really wanted to do is feel good about something they were going to do in their life. I am willing to express anymore of this and my story with anyone.
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Lee
Jul 16, 2009 1:10 PM CST
I have a feeling that the Harvard kiddos will land on their feet just fine.
It used to be true (maybe) that going to law school is good for you no matter what you end up doing. That is absolutely, positively no longer true thanks to the “one-two punch” of the skyrocketing cost of tuition in tandem with the rapidly diminishing opportunities to practice law and make a living at the same time.
Caveat emptor applies like never before to 1Ls.
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James
Jul 16, 2009 1:41 PM CST
Keep in mind kiddies the baby boomers will be retiring soon (or dying)... whatever.
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BigLaw
Jul 16, 2009 3:14 PM CST
Harvard law grads will get jobs—-no worries. It’s the non-Ivy students who will have troubles, in any city these days. This is the worst legal market, maybe in 50 years and it may not ever get back to the way it was a few years ago, when multiple job offers for big money were available for any grad from a good school.
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B. McLeod
Jul 16, 2009 3:41 PM CST
Some worries, actually. Even at Harvard. Although the dean’s advice was directed at students about to begin their 2L and 3L years, he would not be addressing these issues if the most recent graduates all found ready placement.
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Nobody
Jul 17, 2009 2:44 AM CST
Cast a wider net ... ok what bar are graduates suppose to take? All 50 or should we pick 7 or 8 and hope there is a job in one of those states? There is an extreme lack of practicality in this article and Harvard’s memo.
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mike
Jul 17, 2009 3:24 AM CST
While the article does not “solve” the problem for those currently seeking jobs, I believe it is beneficial in that it delivers the message “you are not alone.” Some graduates of lesser law schools are content to blame their school and the article makes it doubly clear that this is a problem across the board.
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caddy
Jul 17, 2009 3:35 AM CST
The memo assumes you take the bar after you get the job, which is what commonly happens.
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nofear
Jul 17, 2009 4:02 AM CST
Has it not occurred to many of these comentators that you went to law school for the wrong reason? My brother -fresh out of law school- opened up his own shop doing trust and estates and is just fine six months in. If you actually want to be a lawyer all the schools provide good training. The rest is up to you.
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detroit atty
Jul 17, 2009 5:47 AM CST
I agree with #14.
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Harold
Jul 17, 2009 6:15 AM CST
Law students need to seriously consider that upon graduation they truly have no marketable skills. While they may pass the bar exam, this is only a license to practice. It does not mean that they possess the skills needed to file a motion, appear in court, do a real estate closing or even sell themselves to a client.
Law schools teach law. They do not teach you how to practice law.
Similarly, many law school students enter law school immediately following college. And unless they received a college degree that provided them with a real skill set, a law degree is not going to help them earn a living.
Law students need to rethink how they want to plan their careers. Maybe they should consider working for a few years after college, and learning some marketable skills. And then, while in law school, taking every opportunity to gain practical skills - like representing indigent people through a clinic. Law review might look good on your resume and impress certain potential employers, but practical skill and the ability to gain clients is what makes a lawyer good - and marketable.
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Jay
Jul 17, 2009 6:46 AM CST
From the article: “‘If you are looking in D.C., consider Baltimore or Richmond,’ he said.”
Hello? What about Wilmington, DE? Wilmington has had a much stronger market than Balto or Richmond for years, and more interesting work to boot.
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Catherine
Jul 17, 2009 7:13 AM CST
to #11: Harvard grads get jobs first, then get paid while they study for the bar.
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Tadd
Jul 17, 2009 7:14 AM CST
In response to #16. I agree with the fact that most lawyers fresh out of school lack many of the practical skills needed to be a good attorney. But if firms only look at GPA and law review experience, how do you expect a new attorney to get those practical skills? Firms only care if you have 6-7 years of experience, otherwise your SOL. Big firms only care about pedigree because they want to attract rich clients who only care about pedigree. Smaller firms are more willing to hire non-ivy grads, but they lack the money to hire and train new attorneys.
The market is bad….period. I would welcome a firm who actually cares about practical skills when hiring, unfortunately most firms see a chance to get a Harvard or Yale grad because of the poor market.
Looks like a government job is the best bet for new attorneys.
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adam
Jul 17, 2009 7:42 AM CST
From time to time I read the comments to these ridiculous aba articles, and I am always struck at how people seem to be saying the same things, over and over. Don’t you all get sick of it?
If you really wanted to say something about the system, isn’t there a more appropriate medium, like an op-ed to a newspaper, for example?
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immigrantesq
Jul 17, 2009 7:43 AM CST
I have not noticed any problems for ivy grads getting jobs. In fact, this year, summer associates are babied just as last year, if not more. As to what has been said about the non-ivy law students, I totally agree. However, it is not only the schools’ fault. If you are smart enough for the LSAT you should be smart enough to do the math and assess your chances of success in the marketplace. Good luck to you all…
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OG
Jul 17, 2009 7:50 AM CST
@Harold (16) - Law school provides you with marketable skills if you go in with marketable skills and the requisite intelligence. If you went to a great college and earned the necessary grades to get into a T-1 law school, you have the intelligence and work ethic that firms will be looking for. If you didn’t and you decided to go straight from college to law school without getting out in the world for some practical experience before going to your T-3 or T-4 law school, well you dug your own grave and can lie in it.
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KDF
Jul 17, 2009 8:16 AM CST
I had a networking meeting with some alums from my undergrad institution, and they told me their firm just turned down a job application from a Harvard grad due to lack of experience. That’s when I saw the writing on the wall and now I’m taking steps toward starting my own law office. The firms have the luxury of demanding 5 years experience in applicants, since there are so many of us and so few jobs—and those of us who graduated in 2008 don’t have that kind of experience, no matter where we went to school. Everyone graduating now has it worse than before, even the Harvard kids.
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John Q Public, Esq.
Jul 17, 2009 8:17 AM CST
See “Bursting of the Pedigree Bubble” recently by Prof. Henderson in the www.NALP.org monthly bulletin. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/documents/0709PedigreeBubble.pdf
Lower tier schools that are focusing on practical skills training consistent with Carnegie and McCrate reports may actually have an advantage in this difficult market going forward.
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Disgusted
Jul 17, 2009 8:25 AM CST
I am disgusted by many of the comments I read on this site. Many of the people who comment on this site spent an inordinate amount of time anonymously belittling attorneys and law school students for attending anything other than a tier one school. The comments for this story alone suggest that anyone who attended anything other than a tier one school should work at Burger King or dig their own grave. Leaving aside the fact that comments such as these are childish and unprofessional, the people who post these comments seem very concerned with what other people in or about to enter the legal professional are doing with their lives. Who cares what other people do with their lives? These commenters either have too much time on their hands or are paranoid and fear any competition in the legal professional. The people who post these kinds of comments bring disrepute to the legal professional and are the reason why people have such a negative perception of attorneys. To these commenters: Try showing attorneys and law school students the respect you would want to receive and respect that this profession deserves. To the ABA Journal: You should rethink your policies with respect to comments on this site.
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blah
Jul 17, 2009 8:26 AM CST
I graduated from a T-3 school last year and have a job thankfully through a connection and being on law review. I have been told that only 13% of this year’s class has secured jobs. Since we’re already sliding to T-4 anyways I think we’re definitely there now. And it now costs about 33k a year to have a 10% chance at getting a job. Awesome.
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Cynic
Jul 17, 2009 8:30 AM CST
Woe to anyone who tries #13’s strategy. I think it is clear just about everyone is looking for layoffs/burnouts from large firms and unemployed Ivy-equivalent grads; not the average new graduate, let alone one who hasn’t taken the bar in their state (and won’t be able to until February 2010).
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To #25
Jul 17, 2009 8:33 AM CST
25,
I would imagine it is the spilloff from Above the Law and Auto-Admit: a congregation of precocious Tier 1 law students who went straight from college and have no perception of the real world aside from their precious rankings.
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NAG
Jul 17, 2009 8:35 AM CST
A big part of the problem is that law school graduates, especially at the top tier schools, enter the real world with no practical legal skills. They can read and interpret case law, but they cannot handle a simple real estate closing, pick a jury in a civil or criminal trial, file divorce papers, prepare an SEC filing, etc., etc.
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Pete
Jul 17, 2009 8:52 AM CST
It has been clear for years that we have way too many lawyers in this country. It has been equally clear since at least the early 1970’s (when I graduated) that universities want to continue to produce law graduates because they can charge tuition comparable to that charged to medical, science and engineering students, even though the cost to produce a lawyer is much lower since no laboratories and comparably much smaller libraries are needed.
Every lawyer who contributes to his law school alumni fund contributes to this problem. While I think quite highly of my education and of the moral value in charitable giving I always give to the university as a whole or my undergraduate college, never to the law school.
In my opinion every law school should voluntarily decrease enrollment by five percent per year until the supply of and demand for lawyers are in relavtive balance. Arguing that a legal education is good preparation for other careers or professions seems counterproductive to me. Law schools need to be cradles of the profession. The level of professionalism in law has declined almost to the point of irrelevance today. In both our society and our profession greed outweighs all. A person is a great laweyer if he makes a lot of money, not if he advances the purpose of law as a science and a profession. That purpose is to give rather than take from our fellows by making this world, including the commercial world, a better, fairer, place. Unless one can commit to that goal, I don’t think he or she ought to enter law school. Go to business school and take a course in business law and make lots of money, but don’t profess to be a member of the profession.
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Concerned Reader
Jul 17, 2009 8:53 AM CST
Assuming you could pass the test, become a CPA…
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JME
Jul 17, 2009 9:08 AM CST
#14 is right. Don’t complain, move to a small town and start your own firm. I opened Oct 15, 2008, and my primary practice is divorce and bankruptcy, and my bills are paid. I suppose my school was a tier 4, I don’t really care. I believe I got a top-notch education which prepared me for doing what I do. I didn’t worry about my grades in school, I learned what lawyers do, and so while my grades weren’t great, I graduated, I passed the bar, I opened my firm. No money, either, you can do it on a shoe string. Just be willing to eat rice for the first six months or so, and live as cheaply as possible while you are starting. Monthly office costs, total, are under $1500. Heck, that’s only one bankruptcy. Think what I can do for only 20 billable hours per week @$125 an hour. Across town, in the only other law firm, the associate has to bill a minimum of 1700 hours per year, my intention is to bill a maximum of 1000 hours. Life is good in small town rural America.
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CPA
Jul 17, 2009 9:24 AM CST
To #31 I did pass the CPA exam, work in a Big 4 accounting firm for a few years and passed the bar exam and work is still hard to find. But I plan on starting up my own practice instead of begging someone else to hire me. Its the American way.
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TB
Jul 17, 2009 9:29 AM CST
#20: Don’t you find it ironic that you are posting a comment on this forum to complain about people posting comments on this forum?
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James
Jul 17, 2009 10:13 AM CST
Why should T1 schools decrease enrollment… they’re, for the most part, not the ones leaving their grads high and dry. Here’s an indication… if your law schools is T4 and not attached to a university ... it’s probably started by some dude who thought he’d make a profit.
Law school’s are profit centers for the people who run them. T4’s are like check cashing places that charge 384% annual interest. They might seem like a good deal at one time (if your desperate) but after you really do some digging you find that you’ve been taken.
On a side note, my state has recently passed regulation to ban many of the practices used in check cashing places. Maybe eliminating the T3/T4 schools in the name of consumer protection?
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Chris
Jul 17, 2009 10:17 AM CST
For those complaining that recent grads don’t have any skills, perhaps those grads should have taken a clinic or two. Some of the most valuable stuff I learned from my clinic was the procedure for filing things at the courthouse. I handled by first custody dispute yesterday. I was terrified out of my mind and my clients knew it, but we prepared ourselves well and eneded up getting the ruling we wanted from the bench.
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Charis P
Jul 17, 2009 10:49 AM CST
@ 22 - OG I think what Harold meant is that law school does not provide one with skills that are marketable to clients, not employers. While in theory it is possible to pick up practical skills if the curriculum offers lots of clinical externship opportunities, many law schools do not and certainly most laws schools neither require that students take them or encourage them to do so. There are very few law students that are well equipped to hang out their own shingle after graduation and passing the bar exam and many attorneys have fairly criticized the lack of practical training that is involved in law school curriculums.
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Kim K.
Jul 17, 2009 10:51 AM CST
#14 and #32-Agreed!
I went to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer and an advocate. Frankly, when I went to law school I did not know then what I know now about law firm types and rankings. I just knew that I wanted to practice law. I graduated from a school that is not an “Ivy” and is not ranked top 1 or 2 tier. I graduated high enough in my class that I had offers from corporate legal departments, small firms, mid-sized firms and big law. I chose big law, where I’ve been practicing (mostly happily) since graduation a number of years ago. But, whether it’s big law or my own shingle, I intend to practice law until I decide I no longer want to and I believe I will continue to be successful (zealously and effectively represent my clinets and meet my living expenses) in any work venue because it’s what I want to do.
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Harold
Jul 17, 2009 10:57 AM CST
After reading these responses I am beginning to think that many people are enjoying the music while sailing on the Titanic.
There are fundamental shifts occurring in the economy that are going to change the way lawyers, even lawyers from Harvard and Yale, are used and paid.
The days are rapidly passing when big law firms can bill their corporate clients whatever they want and correspondingly when partners can simply rest on the labors of their newly minted associate attorneys. Why do you think that rent-a-lawyer firms like Axion are doing so well? How many so called “white shoe” firms have closed/merged/vaporized over the past five years?
Face it, most of us, whether T1 or T4, have been indoctrinated to think that we can suckle on some anonymous teat and call that a career.
I cannot think of any other profession in which 26 year old graduates can earn $150,000 or more with no prior experience. Even doctors are expected to do a residency before practicing.
Shouldn’t you all be getting real?
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sven
Jul 17, 2009 11:01 AM CST
So much whining. I went to a T2 law school late in life - had no problem finding good job. My son just finished his 1st year at a T1 school (no, not Harvard or Yale) and worked all summer for a very well known, large firm who has asked him to work again next summer. Yes, he got the interview in part due to the school he is attending, but also because he has a wealth of real-life experiences whether it be in student government, organizing humanitarian relief efforts, etc., etc., Oh, and he is married, supporting himself (yes, he works) and has not asked for (or received) any $$ from my wife or me. My point - if you think you can just go to law school (no matter what law school) and do nothing else for 3 years, you stand a good chance of being unemployed. Yes, the economy is bad and yes, the whole law school machine has problems, but you can’t just sit back and blame everyone else.
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R
Jul 17, 2009 11:30 AM CST
SInce the Hicthhikers guide to the galexy is the best selling guide because of the words “Don’t Panic” on the cover, maybe by Harvard telling its grads not panic will help the the US World Report Rankings.
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B. McLeod
Jul 17, 2009 12:10 PM CST
Coming soon - “Ford Prefect Law School”?
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Jim C.
Jul 17, 2009 12:42 PM CST
The point that I’d like to add to this discussion is that it, like so many things related to the law, is all about using a law school education as a way to a secure lifetime job. In my experience, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a farmer or an engineer, there are economic risks in life you can’t avoid. There are all kinds of people who invested their riches in secure funds who are now broke, or were highly-trained in fields no longer in demand. The big lie, perpetrated by both the law schools and the profession, is that somehow a law degree is some kind of a guarantee. It’s not, and an intelligent student will assess the cost of the education, including the 3 years spent not getting income and experience in a job, and evaluate that against the risk of doing well in school or not finding a preferred job, and make decisions accordingly. Anyone who doesn’t do that is kidding herself or himself.
I’m a non-traditional student entering my 2L year, and I understand those risks. If I wind up not being able to find a law job (a much greater risk for an older man than a young one), I’ll just go do something else. In life, I’ve already found that it’s the surprise turns that you have to take that wind up being the most rewarding in the long run.
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Agreeing w/#1, yawn
Jul 17, 2009 1:10 PM CST
why does “harvard” and “harvard law school” always make into the ABA journal and other publications? their students are not all truly representative of 90% of law students, and 90% of the legal profession.
who cares about harvard? yawn is right. this is very much a NON-story.
in passing, i’d mention that the memo from their dean or whoever it was, was very POLITIC—make it seem to the world that people will ever actually turn down harvard students, so they can maybe try to “connect” with the plight the rest of us normal people face.
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Older Guy
Jul 17, 2009 1:54 PM CST
Wow, what poor advice from Weber. Baltimore’s legal market is third-tier. And the work is nothing like the work in DC. It’s like saying, if you’re looking at Boston, consider Providence, which is the same distance from Boston as Baltimore is from DC.
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John Q. Public, Esq.
Jul 17, 2009 2:02 PM CST
a. In furtherance of the $150k starting salary comment: see www.nalp.org for stats confirming bimodal starting salaries. The 6 figures only account for about 10% or so of the market—average is closer to $60k, so as commentators said, adjust expectations and act according to the facts, not the dreams
b. #22 mistates a common myth “If you went to a great college and earned the necessary grades to get into a T-1 law school, you have the intelligence and work ethic that firms will be looking for.” Really? I’ve not found an Ivy diploma proof positive of a work ethic—or of intelligence for that matter (and I have one such skin)
c. relatedly, #35—you would let USNWR and popular vote dictiate whcih schools should exist by law and which should not? Read the article I cited in #24—the top tier school myth is the “prestige bubble” being burst b/c the lower tier schools have beat them to the market with a focus on practical skills that so many of these commentators agree is needed.
d. bravo to those commentators urging self-accountability. law may be the only industry where new entrants seem ENTITLED to a high paying, immediate job merely for graduating and passing a bar designed to set the floor, not the ceiling. Over half of all jobs are from networking; only maybe 20% of jobs are posted. He who does not sow shall not reap; if you sit in class and do not get out into the legal community until after graduation, you do so at your own risk—especially in a down economy!
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LaborLady
Jul 17, 2009 3:04 PM CST
I don’t know #19. Many law firms (even small ones) are pretty saavy and they realize that the influx of Harvard Law grads applications are only a result of the slow economy.
They also realize that once the economy regain its footing, those Harvard grads are high tailing it outta the smaller firms. I don’t think small law firms are falling all over themselves to hire the big bad Harvard grad.
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JonhyLaw
Jul 17, 2009 3:23 PM CST
We all need to have sympathy for the struggling Harvard kids. Many have been forced to lay off their personal assistant and suffer the indignity of wiping their own nose.
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Festus
Jul 17, 2009 3:29 PM CST
If you’re looking at Oklahoma, look at Mississippi or Alabama.
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Hard Work
Jul 17, 2009 4:46 PM CST
Stop whining and work harder.
Nobody owes you a job simply because you earned a degree. Though so many quip about somehow being deceived into debt, and no doubt T1 students have an advantage, EVERY law student had the opportunity to be at the top of the class, to get involved and gain marketable skills, and to get a job.
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