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Harvard No. 1, Yale No. 8 in Latest Rankings

Posted Oct 31, 2007 1:38 PM CST
By Molly McDonough

UPDATED: Harvard Law School remains the top school, with Georgetown, University of Texas and the University of Virginia law schools trailing closely behind, according to the 9th edition of Judging the Law Schools.

In the rankings, Northwestern moved to 5th from 7th, and NYU was knocked down one notch from 5th to 6th. Yale dropped from 7th to 8th. The rankings are prepared by affiliates of Thomas M. Cooley Law School, which ranks 16th, above U.C. Berkeley, U.C. Hastings and Stanford. [More on the Battle of the Law School Rankings in this ABAJournal.com post.]

The publication compares all accredited law schools based on criteria identified as significant by the ABA's Council of the Section on Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar, according to a release about the rankings.

Web users can search the rankings and compare schools by state or one of 32 factors, including tuition, LSAT scores and minority enrollment.

Below is the current top 20, with last year's ranking in parentheses:

  1. Harvard University (1)
  2. Georgetown University (2)
  3. University of Texas (3)
  4. University of Virginia (4)
  5. Northwestern University (7)
  6. New York University (5)
  7. Columbia University (8)
  8. Yale Law School (6)
  9. University of Michigan (12)
  10. University of Minnesota (10)
  11. George Washington University (9)
  12. University of Pennsylvania (14)
  13. University of California-Los Angeles (18)
  14. American University (11)
  15. Fordham University (13)
  16. Thomas M. Cooley Law School (16)
  17. University of California-Berkeley (15)
  18. University of California-Hastings (19)
  19. Stanford University (22)
  20. Brooklyn Law School (23)

Updated at 7:54 a.m. Friday to note that the rankings were prepared by Cooley.

Comments

1.

Quinn
Oct 31, 2007 4:42 PM CST

Let’s be fair: Thomas M. Cooley law school is not in the top 20 in the nation (the top 180 would be more accurate). Sure, it has the biggest JD student body of any school, but who cares?

I’m not trashing Cooley just for sport. I graduated from there, the faculty are outstanding, and the school does NOT give easy rides. But, a Cooley-prepared survey that ranks Cooley in the top 20 is just beyond shameless.

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2.

Chi town lawyer
Nov 1, 2007 12:53 PM CST

University of Chicago is not in the top 20?? Give me a break.

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3.

Sims
Nov 2, 2007 4:51 AM CST

Quinn is completely right. This may be the most fraudulent of the many fraudulent surveys/rankings I have ever seen. Hopefully anyone not familiar with Cooley will take the time to investigate why a school that few have ever heard of is ranked in the top 20.  A simple look at the online comparison with the other Michigan law schools will reveal that Cooley’s rank is not based on actual merit but shameful self-promotion. Of course all law schools would like to boost their rankings, but in this case a move from the middle of the tier 4 schools to the top of the tier 4 schools would have been more believeable.

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4.

Dirt Lawyer
Nov 2, 2007 5:38 AM CST

I’m a Florida lawyer, and when I see the University of Miami ranked in the top 20 of 180 accredited law schools, coupled with various other 2nd, 3rd and 4th-tier law schools, I knew there was something odd about this list.  Miami is a decent private law school, but it isn’t even the best law school in its own state.  A quick review of the ranking criteria reveals that it rewards size over academic substance: number of students, number of faculty members, number of minority students, etc.  Yes, it is shameless self-promotion by Cooley, and, frankly, it’s a little bit surprising that the ABA would even lend any credence to this particular list, given that it submerges serious academic credentials like student admissions criteria, post-graduation employment, and bar passage rates in an overabundance of other meaningless statistics.  Ironically, in virtually every one of the serious academic criteria categories, Cooley fails to earn a high mark in its own survey.  Nice try.  Everyone from the dean to the public relations director needs to be publicly spanked for this.  I expect that the Michigan and other Midwestern newspapers will have a field day with this.

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5.

Unbiased Lawyer
Nov 2, 2007 5:39 AM CST

Sounds like a little jealousy to me.  For years law schools thrived on rankings with the assumption that the usual 20 were still going to be in the top 20.  All of a sudden a very young law school who makes their students earn their law school degrees instead of accepting only the best students who everyone knew were probably going to make it (by the way, some of the required courses for some of the top tiered schools are shamless).  I think Cooley tends to make others nervous.  Maybe becuase they are not a part of that “old network.”  Good for you, Cooley.  Congratulations.

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6.

Dirt Needs Glasses
Nov 2, 2007 6:17 AM CST

Dirt - Where do you University of Miami on this list?  Although it would be great if it was, there is no reason to single it out since it isn’t.

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7.

Give me a break
Nov 2, 2007 6:26 AM CST

The issue is not about Cooley providing a chance for applicants without good numbers to earn their way into the system through hard work.  On that front, I’m glad that a school like Cooley is out there. 

The issue is ABA Journal hyping a rankings list that was compiled not by an independant outside-party, but by one of the participating schools.  Talk about conflicts of interest!  For me, the ABA’s credibility just took a significant hit here.

In response to “Unbiased Lawyer”‘s remarks above… you don’t congratulate someone for putting themselves at the top of their own list.  I hereby declare myself to have posted the top comment in response to this article.  Congratulations for me!

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8.

Steve Perkins
Nov 2, 2007 6:35 AM CST

I’m stunned by the fact that ABA Journal didn’t expressly disclose the source of this “information”.  By simply referring to this as “The Rankings”, I (along with most people reading that title) reasonably assume that it’s referring to U.S.News and World Report.  The fact that it’s talking about a rankings list put together by one of the schools ON THE LIST is something that definitely should have been stated up-front in the article.  Did the ABA really think that people wouldn’t notice?!?

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9.

Harold Altscher
Nov 2, 2007 6:43 AM CST

I have always felt after attending various top tier schools, including getting an LLM at one, that John Marshall Law School was the best educational institution I have ever attended.

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10.

Goldy
Nov 2, 2007 6:43 AM CST

The mere appearance of a conflict of interest is so great that the ABA should never have published this ranking.

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11.

Craig Claiborne
Nov 2, 2007 6:52 AM CST

Sure, these rankings are accurate, and by the way the best restaurant is always the one with the biggest buffet!  Based on this, we can expect to see a mass application of Stanford law students for transfers to Cooley.

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12.

michael Policastro
Nov 2, 2007 6:54 AM CST

Cooley is an incredible place.  I graduated from on of the other “Top 20” on your list after transferring from Cooley and Cooley was all around a much better school.

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13.

LegalRanger.Com
Nov 2, 2007 6:54 AM CST

Only school’s that REALLY are in the top twenty on the list is U of PA (14) and Georgetown (2). 

Here in PA, we do not fret over what the definition of “is” is.

This listing is a reflection of a non-law school graduate who knows absolutely nothing about academics or the real world.

If you are seeking a great school of law, I suggest you attend any of the school’s of law in Pennsylvania.  All are 100% ABA approved.

Best private school of law in PA is Widener School of Law in Harrisburg, PA, the state capitol, where law students work with and on actual legislation and interact with state senators and representatives, and the governor’s office, with internships at many state capitol agencies and prominent law firms.

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14.

my rankings
Nov 2, 2007 6:56 AM CST

My rankings on this ranking:

1. Quinn, dirt, give, Steve - you get top billing for penetrating this farce.

2. Cooley PR department for fooling the ABA and who knows who else into reporting this, a major coup for you all.

3. The ABA Journal for publishing this whooper and providing entertainment to us all.  Hopefully Jon Stewart, Conan et al will get some mileage out of this and give you the recognition you deserve.

4. Molly - I hope you were using a psedonynm?

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15.

JR
Nov 2, 2007 7:05 AM CST

Aside from the conflict of interest others pointed out, I question the criteria;  For example, the greater number of students passing the bar the first time rates a higher rarnking.  That gives a boost to “bar exam mills” emphasizing how to regurgitate the latest court decisions and legislative enactments at the expense of more intellectually rigorous schools which teach the proper way to analyze legal issues.  After over 30 years in practice, my Yale legal education, which taught me the “why” of the law stood me in better stead than would have learning the state of the law back in the 1970’s.  I question the tuition and the number of students, since I think small schools that have to charge more provide a better setting than law factories.  The ABA should have had nothing to do with this.
By the way, I passed the New York bar exam—a difficult one—on the first try.

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16.

Big Red Attorney
Nov 2, 2007 7:06 AM CST

Where is Cornell?  This list is a joke.

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17.

Andrew
Nov 2, 2007 8:19 AM CST

They give the criteria on their website.  Everything is equally rated, and many things are used multiple times, in a sense.  There are multiple factors which give no more information than the size of the school.  (Number of applications, number of students, number of faculty, etc.)  It’s no wonder the bigger law schools came out on top, with Cooley right up there.  In fact, many things they give positive weight to are not necessarily good things.

My law school, the University of Dayton, beats out Cooley on all of the “academic” factors, undergrad GPA, LSAT scores, bar passage scores, employment rate, student-teacher ratio.  Yet somehow, Cooley is in the top 20, and we’re not in the top 50 (We wouldn’t expect to be in the top 50 anyway).  I know even the popular rankings disfavor smaller schools, but this is taking it to the point of lunacy.

If you want useful rankings, IU has been putting out “The Ranking Game” for some time now, that lets the user assign any weight they want to each factor.  Students should pick the law school that is right for them.  Here’s a link for the IU ranking game: http://monoborg.law.indiana.edu/LawRank/rank2007.shtml

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18.

Chuckler
Nov 2, 2007 8:27 AM CST

The ABA should release the Top 20 Schools For Graduates Nervous About The Wavering Uncertain Dignity of Their Degrees! To go in order from these comments, it might read:

1. Yale
2. Chicago
3. Yale

The rest is open for discussion.

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19.

Jim
Nov 2, 2007 8:46 AM CST

“Thomas M. Cooley School of Law”  As an in-house attorney that occasionally takes part in the hiring process, it will be very hard for me not to laugh while interviewing any applicant who shows up with that name on their resume.

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20.

Chris
Nov 2, 2007 9:21 AM CST

After reviewing this garbage, I no longer consider the ABA in the top 20 of national bar associations. How about also ranking the Cooley Law school football team as the top program in the country for never losing to a nationally ranked team.

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21.

Marty
Nov 2, 2007 9:46 AM CST

I just love that one of the criteria used in determining their rankings is square footage.  Schools looking to move up in these rankings should start holding classes in their football stadiums.

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22.

John L. Runft
Nov 2, 2007 9:59 AM CST

University of Chicago not in the top 5 or 10 or 20?  Stanford at 22?  Stunning!

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23.

Philip Rosmarin
Nov 2, 2007 10:34 AM CST

Evidently the ABA Journal website has been hacked. It’s almost impossible that anyone at the real site could be this stupid. Almost.

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24.

William
Nov 2, 2007 1:26 PM CST

All of this discussion is further proof that the only real ranking criteria (if we really need rankings) is LSAT scores. Now—lets truly look at that test.

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25.

Clinton Wells
Nov 2, 2007 1:27 PM CST

Q: How do you get a graduate of the Thomas M. Cooley School of Law off your porch? A: Pay him for the pizza.

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26.

KeepSpeechAlive
Nov 2, 2007 1:29 PM CST

I am pleased with and proud of the spirited debate sparked by the ABA Journal article.  I am sorely disappointed, though, that so many lawyers do not know the basics of journalism, and have wrongly attacked the ABA Journal for printing the article.  None of the critics point out false, libelous, or dnagerous information in the article, yet lambast the ABA Journal for deigning to publish a story that says, well, something of interest has been published; go look at it if you want to, or not, as you like.
When did that become inappropriate journalism?

The ABA Journal rightly reported the fact that a ranking of law schools had been published; the Journal identified the publisher; and the Journal cited the rank obtained by many apparently precious law schools. 

The Journal functioned just as any good magazine should: it provided accurate, factual account of events of interest to its readership.

It’s just speech, folks.

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27.

West Coast Student
Nov 2, 2007 1:29 PM CST

Hmmm - Maybe I should create a law school ranking system with the most weight given to “distance from the Pacific Ocean.” 

Do you think the ABA would publish it?

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28.

West Coast Student
Nov 2, 2007 1:37 PM CST

I take issue with Clinton Well’s disparaging comment about graduates of Cooley.  I’ve never heard of the school, but if it’s ABA accredited - it does not deserve that type of ridicule. 

Regardless of the merits of some schools, the snobbery of so-called “top law school” graduates does NOTHING to help all of us in the legal profession.

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29.

Philip Rosmarin
Nov 2, 2007 1:41 PM CST

I’ve been assured by a Journal staff member that the posting of the people, by the people, and for the people of Cooley was not the work of a hacker, and that the site has not been hijacked, as I had feared.

So, you too can rest assured that your computers have not been compromised, and the only hijacking was of the ABA Journal editorial judgment.

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30.

Clinton Wells
Nov 2, 2007 2:04 PM CST

I take issue with West Coast Student’s taking issue with me. As a proud graduate of the perhaps-soon-to-be-ABA-accredited Whasamatta U. School of Law, I am currently working with many fine graduates of Cooley.  These are great people and often fill in for me on my pizza route when I want to stay home and watch Boston Legal.  Only elitists like West Coast Student would put down people working for a honest living such as myself and my Cooley friends.

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31.

Clinton Wells
Nov 2, 2007 2:16 PM CST

Also, and many people may not be aware of this, but I am informed that you can pay at least part of your tuition at the Thomas M. Cooley School of Law in pizza coupons.  So that is a big reason to consider attending.

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32.

Thomas M. Cooley
Nov 2, 2007 2:22 PM CST

As Thomas M. Cooley himself, I can assure you we have a library of more than 40 books, professors with a wide variety of experiences with the law including as lawyers and defendants, and substantial and modern classroom space in my basement.  In addition, every sixth Wednesday is pizza night (coupon required, cheese pizza only).

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33.

YLS 1981
Nov 2, 2007 4:04 PM CST

The last few comments about Cooley graduates and curriculum are childish and mean-spirited.  The authors deteriorated a pretty good discussion, yet aren’t funny enough to count as parody.  And, they hide behind pseudonyms. Weak.

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34.

anon
Nov 2, 2007 4:37 PM CST

C’mon people, everyone knows Cooley is a better school than Standford!

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35.

George Washington
Nov 2, 2007 4:37 PM CST

The number of chairs in the libary is one of the categories these rankings employ. On the day before they issue the rankings, do you think Cooley students are instructed to carry a bunch of chairs in from the rest of the building? Or are they too busy enjoying the massive amount of square footage their library encompasses (another category)? And since when does the total size of enrollment (another category) equate to quality legal education? As anyone who has been to law school knows, the more idiots in the class wanting to say something the slower the class progresses. And shouldn’t these numbers be ratios? Who cares if Cooley has 500 chairs in the library if they have 1000 students? If you are at Yale with 200 people in your class, you don’t need a huge amount of space and a large number of chairs in which to park yourself for a few hours of studying (uninterrupted by the incessant questioning of your 1000 other classmates rushing chairs into the library to up their ridiculous rankings).

I don’t take issue with these rankings because they upset the traditional order of “good” schools. I take issue with them because their methodology is just stupid.

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36.

Rational Lawyer
Nov 2, 2007 6:13 PM CST

Only an idiot would believe these rankings - then again, cooley aims them at future students!

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37.

law prof
Nov 2, 2007 9:50 PM CST

these “volume” rankings have been around, and been a joke, for years.  their re-publication here is the only thing that’s new.  i agree with the poster above who said that this website must have been hacked, probably by a cooley student.  if he doesn’t get a summer associate job maybe he can work in information technology.

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38.

sane person
Nov 2, 2007 10:07 PM CST

is the ABA on crack??

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39.

A Michigan Lawyer
Nov 2, 2007 11:18 PM CST

I was flabbergasted to see Cooley listed as a top-20 law school. This is NOT the reputation of this school, and no practicing lawyer in Michigan would give credence to this.

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40.

BLS lawyer
Nov 2, 2007 11:54 PM CST

Hey, even though it was low for Cooley, much to their credit, they’ve accomplished their goal—they got their name out there.  I never heard of Cooley before.

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41.

anon
Nov 3, 2007 5:51 AM CST

To gain admission to Cooley, students don’t even need to graduate from undergraduate college or university.  And its making the top 20?  Obviously, success and employment after graduation is not an important consideration to the ABA… though, it seems all the hard work of law school is so you can actually find employment as a lawyer.  Not such an easy task if you’re graduating from Cooley.

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42.

Louis Abalone
Nov 3, 2007 6:14 AM CST

Don’t knock this survey.  I work in the Valley, but come from Michigan, and can tell you hands down that the law school coeds at Cooley ARE prettier than those at Stanford.  Maybe not smarter, but who cares?  Especially with the cold winters back home, I’ll take a Cooley girl any nite of the week!

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43.

Ancheronta
Nov 3, 2007 11:57 AM CST

Thank you Louis, finally somebody shedding light on the really important topics. [no sarcasm impied]

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44.

Anon
Nov 3, 2007 12:20 PM CST

I would disagree with Andrew’s contention that the USN rankings disfavor small schools; at least near the top of the list they indeed have slight advantages by being able to narrow the GPA and LSAT acceptance range.  It is the reason YLS is in no immediate danger of losing the #1 spot to HLS, and Georgetown’s ranking underrepresents their reputation.

But there is no question that Cooley’s rankings place too much emphasis on size.  In addition to the excellent points made above about how ridiculous many of the criteria are.  I would also add that the sheer number of factors that are mere proxies for size are inane.

Among them:
Total enrollment
Total minority enrollment
Number of Full-Time Faculty
Number of Part-Time Faculty
Total Teaching Faculty (merely replicates the factors above)
Number of Minority Faculty
Number of Course Titles Beyond the First Year
Total Volumes in Library
Total Titles in Library
Total Serial Subscriptions
Number of Professional Librarians
Library Seating Capacity
Number of Networked Computers Available for Use by Students
Library Total Square Footage
Non-Library Total Square Footage
Total Law School Square Footage (again, just replicates the two above factors, effectively counting them twice)
Number of States in which Graduates are Employed

At most maybe two of the factors (library subscriptions and titles) are relevant, but the rest have little bearing on quality without being expressed as ratios instead of sheer numbers.  14/32 - nearly half - the factors give a huge advantage to larger schools - just another reason why any applicant with common sense would be able to see through this fraud.  Of course, many will not bother to look carefully at the criteria and factors.

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45.

Lee
Nov 3, 2007 1:53 PM CST

The rankings are the result of GIGO…Garbage In, Garbage Out.

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46.

Aaron
Nov 3, 2007 2:15 PM CST

Unfortunately, these rankings are not just a joke, but they do harm people. Tuition is $24,000. Attrition for the first year is 26%, that’s 483 people out of the entering class that will have paid $24,000 only to fail out. Attrition is 15.4% and 5.5% for the second and third years, respectively. That means that each matriculating class after three years shrinks to about 1,000 students out of 1,700+. That’s means about 41% of matriculating students will have wasted their time to some degree and lost some money, whether it be the $24,000 tuition or living expenses plus opportunity cost of going to school.

Couple this with the fact that, of the 60% or so of students who do make it through Cooley, they have a 71% chance of passing the bar on the first try (below the state’s average).

Further consider that, according to Cooley’s web site, of the people that pass the bar, only 82% will be employed at a median rate of $52,000.

These are bad odds for anyone, even someone pursuing the degree for free on full scholarship.

If one knows what they are getting into, fine. However, these rankings so badly distort reality that they entice students to attend who would otherwise not step foot in the place. THAT’S the problem, that illegitimate rankings such as this mislead people into attending schools when it is a bad idea financially.

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47.

Tom Tedesco
Nov 3, 2007 8:14 PM CST

I think law school provides potential avenues for people who may have little other choices but working a sales job somewhere.  If someone wants to put down $24K on a chance for betterment, and loses, it could be worse.  Many people go to law school when they haven’t found someone to marry in college.  If that costs 24K, and they find a spouse, I think that’s a good deal.  So not everyone will become a David Boies or a Supreme Court justice; that’s OK.  It’s a chance.  And I agree with the guy about Michigan girls.  They’re wholesome and well worth a roll in the hay, if not more.  So stop knocking Cooley, whoever they are.  They’re giving hope to people who otherwise would be selling bibles, insurance or something else.  And hurray for good looking Michigan girls, including those at Cooley High.

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48.

charlie
Nov 4, 2007 7:06 AM CST

Cornell is not in the top 20?

Hmmm.

Q : what does a graduate of Cooley say?

A : Paper or plastic?

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49.

Discontinue my ABA Journal Subscription
Nov 4, 2007 9:07 AM CST

I am astonished at the lack of honesty, integrity, and journalistic ethics the ABA Journal has demonstrated with this article. I realize others already have made these points, but the way the Journal has hyped this ridiculous “ranking system” apparently created by a bunch of charlatans, eager only to boost the name recognition and reputation of their own institution, is beyond shameful. Does the ABA seriously intend to continue to lend its name to a publication that would not only fail to disclose the critical fact that the rankings are created by a no-name school that somehow appears on its own top-20 list (using a preposterous list of “criteria”), but would purposefully attempt to create the impression that these rankings are the independent US News rankings? This is a new low, and a seriously irresponsible act for a publication that has an automatic circulation to nearly every accredited attorney in the United States.

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50.

Mark A. Banks-Golub
Nov 4, 2007 10:53 AM CST

The most interesting thing for me about this piece is the amount of insecurity displayed by lawyers who have been practicing for decades and still feel the need to make where they went to school such a large factor in their self-esteem.

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