Scarlet J.D.? ‘Hester Prynne’ Seeks Advice re Degree from Low-Ranked Law School

Joanie
Jun 22, 2009 11:00 PM CST

Let’s see….I’m over 35, near-sighted, flat footed, overweight and mildly deaf in one ear.  I’m sure the military will welcome me with open arms..

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@ common sense
Jun 24, 2009 7:16 AM CST

They continue borrowing money to attend low ranked schools because they think: This is America, I can be a lawyer if I want to be one. What difference does it make if I never really studied all that hard, had a C average through HS and college, and barely got an average score on the LSAT when I took it the 4th time.  Now that I’ve found Fly-by-Night Law School I can finally fulfill my dream.

Then, just like at any other school, there are those 5% who shine, 45% who do moderately well to well, and the rest of the bunch who slack off in school, slack off studying for the bar, slack off in practice, can’t make a decent living, can’t move to another market where there may be more opportunities, can’t figure out how to pay their bills, STEAL (because that’s what it is) from their client trust accounts, and then get disbarred.

People who graduate in the lower 1/3 of the class from a tier-1 law school, or in the lower 2/3 from a tier-2, often have a hard time finding jobs (oven in an “up” market).  We all know why the ABA continues to accredidate school and it’s not because they think there aren’t enough lawyers to supply the demand.

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get a life
Jun 24, 2009 7:24 AM CST

One more thing . . .
I am so sick of the elitism on these boards about lower tier schools.
I have a friend that didn’t do great in college but really studied for the LSAT and got a 161.
This got him into a Tier 4 law school and he will pay a bunch of money for the privilege.
Should I tell him to forget it?  REALLY!  Show I tell him he is being stupid and wasting his time?

You holders of number 47 and 59 and 72 law school degrees are not all that superior.  So stop acting like you are and give the rest of the world a chance.
Maybe they didn’t have a silver spoon choking them like you did.
Maybe the WORKED in college.

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HP
Jun 24, 2009 7:41 AM CST

The important difference, I think, to the community college example is that undergraduate education is broadly applicable, and a college education from any institution will increase your job prospects in almost any field.  I like to think that a liberal education will also increase your enjoyment of life no matter what you do with it.  So college is a universally wise investment.

Law school, on the other hand, is trade school.  It may be intellectually interesting as a side benefit, but if you can’t find a job as a lawyer after you graduate, I’d argue that you wasted your money.

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James
Jun 24, 2009 9:29 AM CST

To “get a lfe”

Yes, to be completely honest I would have told your friend that going to a Tier 4 school is huge mistake.  If they didn’t study well in college what makes you think they would do well in law school?  Also they could get a masters or take a year or two off, take the LSAT again and reapply. 

I’d even go so far as to say that if I didn’t share with my friend the realities of lower tier law schools, I’d be doing him a diservice.

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Jackie Chiles
Jun 24, 2009 11:26 AM CST

If you actually read the article in the NY Law Journal, “Hester” seems to concede her own MESS-up (satisfied ABA?).
As to comments by get a life, I agree with everything you’re saying. However, there is a huge amount of elitism in the legal profession. It is not necessarily the commenters here who make it so, but just the harsh reality.

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CA Lawyer
Jun 24, 2009 1:11 PM CST

3rd and 4th tier law schools are fine if you have humble lawyerly aspirations (working in your uncle’s small town firm) or business savvy.  I have a friend who went to a 3rd tier school and is very successful because he has entrepreneurial skills—he started his own firm and has a number of foreign business clients who appreciate his business skills and bilingualism. 

However, examples like my friend are misleading to most would-be lawyers who just want to practice law in an established firm.  If they go to a mediocre school and don’t have special skills like speaking a 2nd language or having a science degree, they’ll amass huge debts that will be difficult to pay off with that $60,000 insurance defense firm job.  Law school applicants are sadly misinformed about the realistic opportunities awaiting them.

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dummies
Jun 24, 2009 5:32 PM CST

To those speaking as if the only way to be successful in life is to attend a top-tier school and be in the top 10% of your class—be real.

In reality, the B student works for the A student and the A student works for the C student.  Personality, ambition and intelligence are a killer combo.  Unadulterated bookworming may get you the interview, but it sure won’t get you the job.

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The Truth
Jun 26, 2009 4:11 AM CST

I love comments from people like “happy associate.”  A doctor could go to the absolute worst AMA accredited school in the US, but if the doctor scores really well on the objectively-graded Board Exams then the doctor will be rewarded for his objective high performance.  Ridiculous notions like that put forth by the previous commenter only serve to illustrate how ludicrous is our profession.  We have no objective tests, and our ability to get into a T14 school is the real rubric.  I was accepted to a couple T14 schools but could not go because I could not get private loans to pay.  Since I went to W&L, which gave me a full tuition scholarship, I MUST be a worse attorney than some trust funder that went to Columbia. 

Ours is one of the few professions that continues to thrive under a system of classism.  Luckily the ABA approved the farming of work out to India.  This development may have the potential finally to break the elitist framework of the American legal system.  And for my friend the “happy associate,” your reasoning beautifully shows what all of us that went to law school know: law school gave us nothing useful in the practice of the law.  The system would work just as well if we just took the LSAT and got a score, took BarBri for a few weeks, then were able to start working.  I agree with you, law school gave us nothing.

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practice life
Jun 26, 2009 5:16 AM CST

To those who would believe they are better off, worthier, more deserving, etc. simply because of their school’s reputation or class rank, wake up.  The T1 folks whose starts at Big Law have been deferred or withdrawn, and those who have been laid off, are facing some of the same financial challenges as our T( ) brothers and sisters who are looking for meaningful work. 

Wait until you’ve been out there practicing for a while, and you’ll find that your definition of “success” may have changed from the time you entered law school, or when you started work with your newly-minted JD.

You never know how these things are going to turn out.  I didn’t attend a T1 law school, but it was a matter of choice, and life circumstance.  I’d been out in the work force, was married with young children (wife working, great day care, pediatricians, etc. in place), and the nearest law school was 80 miles away.  There was no question what law school I would attend, because I only applied to one.  I commuted daily for 3 years, carpooling with some classmates who lived about 50 miles from school.

I’d like to think that I have received the M-H AV rating because I care deeply about my clients, work hard, produce good work product, and hold myself to the highest standards of integrity.  The content of one’s character is formed well before one sits for the LSAT.  Anyone can be a jerk, regardless of law school tier and/or class rank.

As far as being able to cut it in the world of complex litigation and big-deal transactions, my lack of “pedigree” hasn’t kept me back, or from whooping the Tier 1 Big Law machine.  I have found my way into a highly complex practice area, where small transactions are $50-60 million, and regulatory proceedings have $MM at stake. 

So, whether you are Tier 1, Tier 4, or somewhere in between, don’t let it define you or your prospects.  Take heart.  Put those skills to work, read, continue to learn.  Seize opportunities, or make them.  Build relationships and find mentors, inside and outside the practice of law.  Sit in on trials and regulatory hearings.  Read briefs.  Learn the issues.  And define your own measure of success.

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chuck
Jun 26, 2009 5:19 AM CST

Seriously, I hate these idiot consultants say “be a JAG officer” when people can’t find jobs.  Trust me, the competition to get a direct appointment post-law school is very steep.  I do not know about the Army and Marines, but the other servic branches were just as difficult to get into.

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Get a Job
Jun 26, 2009 5:32 AM CST

It is tiresome listening to the chants of the disenfranchised masses whining about elitism.  If you are unable to see why attending a 4th tier law school is (for the most part) an incredibly unsound decision; perhaps one that only reflects how you ended up there in the first place.  How often do you hear successful people complaining about working with extremely capable and intelligent coworkers?  Wow, it must really suck to be among the elite.  The real world isn’t t-ball: you don’t get equal playing time just to be fair.  The better you have done, the more doors that will open up to you.  If you are at a tier-4 school, you likely have a poor history of performance.  In case you hadn’t realized this, a history of poor performance isn’t the type of indicator of future success.

Many lower tier schools charge the same as or more than tier-one schools.  If you have a history of success and you perform well on the LSAT, you should be able to get into at least a top 50 law school and probably get some financial assistance as well, so the choice to go to a lower tier school is often not a financial one.

Get a life asks if he should advise his friend not to go to law school.  He says his friend was unsuccessful in college but studied really hard and got a 161.  Unlike his friend, I graduated summa cum laude (albeit from an unimpressive undergraduate), and I never would have attended law school if I scored a 161 on the LSAT.  I wouldn’t have been able to get into a school that would provide me a reasonable opportunity to repay my law school debt.  In the current legal market, your friend would be an absolute fool to believe that going to law school is a sound decision.

It makes no economic sense for an employer to not seek the most talented and able prospects.  There is no way an employer can interview every graduate in the search for the best prospect.  Is the Harvard grad going to be a better lawyer than a tier-4 grad?  Perhaps not, but an employer who can only interview one of the two will not hesitate to choose the Harvard grad.  Yesterday’s NBA draft offers a good example.  How many NAIA players were drafted?  Yes, there were couple of rockstars from Europe and lower divisions, but pretty much everyone went to D1 schools.  And this is in a field where players have been scouted since high school.  Unless a student from a lower tier school can bring something exceptional to the table, he stands little chance of even getting his foot in the door.  This is a good thing.  While there will always be examples of people finding a diamond in the rough, it is far better to look for them in a mine.

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#100
Jun 26, 2009 5:34 AM CST

Its called hanging a shingle, quit being such a complainer and take initiative. I personally do not see the appeal of the large firm, so maybe I am biased, but I am in the top of my class at a low ranked, well known school (locally) and I see plenty of opportunity with solo practice or other endeavors.

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Work Hard and Smart
Jun 26, 2009 5:43 AM CST

Practice Life has it right.  Almost identical situation for me.  Done.

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Tracy
Jun 26, 2009 5:44 AM CST

So bored of this elitist attitude.  All it ever does is make me so glad I didn’t go into the best school I got into and acculumate the debt that might have entailed because then I would stuck working with some (not all I am sure) people with those attitudes.  I went to a top twenty undergraduate program, had great LSAT scores, got into more than one top twenty law school and chose to go the lowest ranked school I applied to because it was near my family, in teh community I wanted to practice in, offered me a great scholarship, and I knew I wanted work in the public sector in that community.  Had I gone to the “best” law school i got into I would never have been able to work at my government job and buy a home in my community.  People make conscious choices about these things and I have high school friends who chose the best schools path and have fabulous law degrees but much more limited choice of lifestyle because of the debt they owe.  I hate these attitudes that reinforce these elitist ideas because they really don’t work in all markets and apply to all situations - and then the rest of have to work with these egotistical products of these institutions.

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Caroline
Jun 26, 2009 5:48 AM CST

I must say, I had a great laugh at the comment that T1 lawyers are better than T4 with almost no exceptions.  I went to a law school that bounced back and forth between T3 and T4.  I heard repeatedly, from lawyers who attended various law schools, that attorneys who graduated from my school invariably were better than others in the area, including Harvard.  We’re scrappy and we know how to work, and while we may be T4 right now, our clinical program is better than Harvard’s (check the ranking) and our writing program is ranked what, 34 overall?  Tied with Georgetown?  Not to mention the repeated national success of our Moot Court teams, which provides excellent practice in litigation. 

I agree with “get a life” - law school applicants are not told about how hard it is to get a job, or more importantly, what their average pay will be.  They only tell you the statistics of who is employed - not where. 

I’m upset that all the jobs I’m finding in my interest area pay what an administrative assistant would make, but then I remind myself that my degree holds intangible value - I don’t have to be someone’s doormat in the workplace, I have a versatile professional degree, and if I really want to, I can hang my own shingle and do just fine, like everyone else.  Regardless of where I graduated from.

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David B
Jun 26, 2009 5:52 AM CST

I know a patent lawyer who went to Widener, which at the time was ranked 277 out of 277.  He went on to become a partner at a large patent boutique in about the shortest possible amount of time.  Without outing him, he also went on to be president of a prestigious national law association.  Be the best you can be, do the bet you can do, and you’ll ultimately succeed.

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patrick
Jun 26, 2009 6:03 AM CST

The schools all report high post-graduation employment statistics (typically in the 90’s within a year after graduation) and do absolutely nothing to inform prospective students of how tight the market is. Just because practicing lawyers can discern a crowded field does not mean that prospective law students can do the same.

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Agreed
Jun 26, 2009 6:07 AM CST

For once I’m compelled to post, in light of some of the comments out there.  The following isn’t meant to brag, but to explain why peoples’ attempts to categorize is improper.  We’ll leave it at the fact that the elitists seem to be the ones who generalize and can’t seem to grasp the big picture.  That said, I went to an Ivy league for undergrad, scored a 177 LSAT, got admitted to T1 schools and chose to go to a T4.  As a result, I had far more opportunities to do what I wanted both in and out of law school.  I didn’t have to choose what was important.  I volunteered, I competed (and won) moot court competitions, was an editor on law review, and was able to work at a job where I had the opportunity to handle a national media appeal which went all the way up to the state Supreme Court.  Few else could say that they saw words drafted scrolling across the bottom of CNN their second year of law school.  My T4 ranking also didn’t stop me from a stint with BigLaw, in a state other than where my T4 school was located.  Now, I spend a large part of my time representing individuals who went to T1 schools and are being sued for malpractice.  Never once have these real world attorneys looked down on me (or anyone else in my firm) as being less competent to represent them as a result of what law school we went to.  My story is not an anomoly.  My partners, and others i’ve met in the legal community have similar stories.  A good friend, who is entering his third year at a T1, top of his class etc. is taking a semester at my T4 school to gain some practical legal knowledge.  And he has a job lined up at one of the BigLaw firms that hasn’t laid anyone off, has reduced salaries, and hasn’t announced deferrals.  His firm fully supports the decision.  My point is, don’t listen to the naysayers out there.  Make the best out of life, enjoy yourself and you’ll be fine.

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T4
Jun 26, 2009 6:29 AM CST

While I’m incredibly impressed with tier 1 schools and their reputation, that is all that their degree gets them over a t4 school.  You might have been able to study under the greatest professors in the country and had tremendous resources available to you, but how much real world experience have you gotten?  Don’t say that being a summer associate is actual experience, from all the accounts i have heard, it involves mostly drinking and being wined and dined by partners and being paid obscene amounts of money.  In the past year of law school however, I have gotten more litigation experience than anyone i know in any other school by volunteering and taking classes allowing me to represent actual clients.  You might have the theory of law down pat, but do you know how the real system functions or how to get clients through it?

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Todd S.
Jun 26, 2009 6:49 AM CST

I have to agree with the comment by the previous poster “Brian” regarding the JAG Corps.  As a JAG officer I have recruited at dozens of schools and I can say that although “the government is always hiring”, its only hiring the best.  It breaks my heart when I see a student from a lower ranked school with undistinguished transcripts and a low LSAT come to the interview with high hopes.  Too often, someone like Ann Israel has given them erroneous advice about how the JAG will take the less qualified applicant, whip them into shape, and four years later the less qualified applicant will have been transformed into the physically fit and mentally sharp litigator that JAG officers are known to be, ready to enter the civilian workforce with better prospects.  While we do turn our new JAGs into seasoned and hardened professionals quickly, litigating serious crimes immediately and advising operators on the law of armed conflict, the reality is that we don’t turn coal into diamonds.  We don’t recruit coal.  We may recruit a few diamonds in the rough like an applicant from a low ranked school but who has a very high LSAT and a high class ranking or a student from a highly ranked school who is motivated, has a high LSAT but whose class ranking is lackluster.    But generally, our standards are very high.  For example, the Air Force acceptance rate for applicants is typically 7%-12% depending on the accessions board.  That is actually more selective than Harvard Law school which accepts 11.8% of their applicants.  And you should note that we do not count as applicants the thousands of students that we meet with each year to discuss the JAG corps application process.  An “applicant” doesn’t actually become an applicant until they have gone through a very involved selection process, a process that most potential applicants never complete.  Academics aside, we want applicants who have leadership potential.  Leadership is an intangible quality but we know it when we see it, and generally, leaders don’t lurk at the bottom level of performance.  That being said, I don’t intend to discourage anyone from applying.  I’ve met a couple JAGs who didn’t look good on paper but upon meeting them it was clear they had the intellect, ability and leadership we wanted.  But that is more the exception than the rule.  With all of that being said, in the end, the military is about service to one’s country and devotion is a must.  As an officer you will be asked to make sacrifices that money cannot justify.  If you do not feel an inner call to serve something more important than yourself, no other qualifications can compensate.

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cgb
Jun 26, 2009 6:53 AM CST

Israel should shut her mouth and then shutter her business immediately. It is elitist quacks like her that try to make anyone who didn’t go to Harvard or Yale seem like second class lawyers.  I didn’t go to a Harvard or Yale but I’ll put my education and my skills up against any of those law school snobs in a court room.

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JT
Jun 26, 2009 6:59 AM CST

I am surprised that next to none of the comments mention the #1 criterion for a successful law practice: clients.  Where you went to school does not matter a fig if clients won’t trust you to handle their most sensitive needs.

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WidenerLaw2L
Jun 26, 2009 7:02 AM CST

“Among the practice possibilities to which Israel points is a gig in the military.”

Thanks to Mr. Clinton, this is not an option for many law students, myself included.

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vj
Jun 26, 2009 7:10 AM CST

When I’m consulted (not every round) to help select the new clerks for the upcoming session, our court looks to experience, ability to write and other amorphous qualities.  Then, when we whittle the selection down to the 40-50 excellent candidates for the 10 clerk positions, we look to what schools they chose to attend.  The students who apply for a clerkship all have the same GPA range with few exception.  So, it does come down to school for some of the more prestigeous clerkships.  After clerking, these students receive significant bonuses and law firm offers—even those students who attended schools that are not traditionally feeders for the T50 law firms.  It’s sad to say that something that should be insignificant (?) like a USNWR ranking can lead to a clerkship while a T2-T4 school choice leads to a “thank you for applying but….”  That said, I went to a school that fluctuates between T1 and T2, then big law for a few years before a Fed Ct.  Whether they should or not, school rankings do matter.  Our peers judge us immediately based on what school we attended even years into practice.

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