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Law Grad with LLM Lands Just One Job Interview from 300 Resumés

Posted Dec 3, 2008 9:29 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss

The job market for law graduates was relatively strong for 10 years—so strong, in fact, that last year, 92 percent of legal grads found jobs in their field, the strongest showing in two decades.

This year, though, things are different, CNNMoney.com reports. For the first time in recent history, the job market is contracting. That’s bad news for the more than 150,000 students in law school.

Andrew Magdy is an example. He has a law degree from Michigan State and an LLM in taxation from Washington University—and $150,000 in student loans, the CNN story says. The first payment is due this month.

Magdy told the publication he sent out about 300 resumes, but landed just one job interview. "Every day I send out resumés, both electronically and through the mail, and every day I receive responses that the law firms are not currently hiring," he said.

Comments

1.

Old News
Dec 4, 2008 8:19 AM CST

This happened to me from 2004-2008.  I’m an ‘07 grad who sent out over 650 resumes in four years before finally landing an interview at a firm.  That firm dissolved. 

ABA needs to stop legal outsourcing and stop accrediting bad schools.

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2.

B. McLeod
Dec 4, 2008 10:38 AM CST

I won’t say times are good for law students, but remember that every one of those firms to whom you sent your resumes began at some point with one or a few lawyers hanging out a shingle.  What has been done by others can be done by you.  Don’t look to the ABA to solve your problems.  If you graduated a good law school, you have what you need.  Take charge of your destiny.

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3.

poor marketing
Dec 4, 2008 4:53 PM CST

Also, keep in mind that networking and personal connections are much more effective than just mailing resumes out.  Without intending to boast, I have gotten at least an interview at every place I’ve applied.

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4.

Mmoore80
Dec 5, 2008 5:37 AM CST

Last year 92% of legal grads found jobs in their field?

Wow, where does the ABA pull these numbers out of?

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5.

ABA in Wonderland
Dec 5, 2008 6:32 AM CST

92%?  Last year? Really?  The ABA must be lost in wonderland, again. Denial doesn’t pay for student loans or mortgages or anything, as far as I can tell.  Remarket?  What market? 

Only super intelligent, charismatic, rock star Presidential candidates can bank on hope.  The 40k law grads this year…..  Time to explore job options in Dubai and Sao Paolo….

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6.

paul
Dec 5, 2008 6:33 AM CST

Mmoore80, I’m sure the 92% figure is correct, but “in their field” also probably covers those contract positions doing eye-and-mind-numbing document review that trained monkeys with a pre-school diploma could do (do I sound bitter?).

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7.

bd
Dec 5, 2008 6:40 AM CST

Poor s.o.b.  Join the crowd.

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8.

karen
Dec 5, 2008 6:53 AM CST

Andrew should instead look to the Big 4 public accounting firms for a job.  A job in such a firm won’t pay as much as a law firm, but it’s better than no job.  With an LLM in taxation, a job in public accounting could be a sensible alternative, especially if he could get a position consulting in mergers and acquisitions or international taxation.

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9.

George H Rutrough
Dec 5, 2008 6:55 AM CST

The ABA and the law schools need to realize we have trained and graduated way too many lawyers over the past 10-15 years.  Acceptance or available seats into law schools need to decrease in a scaling method over the next 5-10 years. There are just to many lawyers in our current society, and we are decreasing our own value by continuing to train new attorneys. Very few older attorneys retire. Given today’s life expectancy and current retirement accounts demise, I expect attorneys to practice as long as they possibly can - probably longer than they should. Result - we have to many lawyers these days.

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10.

Hang out a shingle?
Dec 5, 2008 7:02 AM CST

Hang out a shingle? Seriously?

This guy can’t make his student loan payments.  Is he to turn to the SBA to borrow more money? 

At the very least, and most importantly because he has no “real” legal experience, he’ll need to be able to pay for malpractice insurance.

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11.

Dave Sergi
Dec 5, 2008 7:03 AM CST

When I started my career in a similarly bad time period in the 80’s things were bad and I was creative. All I seem to hear now from young law grads is complaining and wanting things on a silver platter. I know that there is a glut know, but my firms business model has always been to work with young lawyers who need work while getting their practices going. Pound the pavements with the small firms offering yourself as the “whatever it is that you like that the small firm or solo does not do” person. If I had a tax/business lawyer show up I might just have paying work for her or him

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12.

didthesamething
Dec 5, 2008 7:05 AM CST

The guy needs to look for in house positions.  Corps. are still hiring staff counsel.  He won’t make $100K to start but he can also get a general forberance on his student loans.

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13.

Steve
Dec 5, 2008 7:12 AM CST

I attended a tier 3 my first year b/c I did not get into the school of first choice.  I transferred to a tier 2 for 2 & 3L years.  I finished near top third of my class.  I live in the midwest and got 5 interviews from about 30-35 resumes.  I spent a lot of time networking while sending out resumes to places I knew were hiring.  After the firms that posted hirings came to a screeching halt, I researched smaller firms with 3-10 attorneys and then snail mailed resumes and cover letters.  I tried to find a common thread between my internship experience and interests and the firms I sent resumes to (it also helps to apply to firms with partners that are alum from the school you graduated at).  The ironic thing is, the resumes I “cold mailed” to the smaller firms got me the interview that landed the job I am in now, albeit for a shockingly low salary.  I know it is tough out there and I do not envy those still looking.  But you have to stay positive, undiscouraged, and move on to other firms (maybe in smaller towns or other states).  I know that is easier said than done, and I know there are way too many law grads still looking.  But I hope this posting finds someone well out there.

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14.

Mitch Fargis
Dec 5, 2008 7:16 AM CST

I echo you, Mr. Sergi.  I entered the 80’s with my JD and LLM and quickly grew frustrated pounding on law firm doors.  I became a poster child for what you can do with a law degree.  I started in a family office, taught graduate school, managed a trust department and ran a bank.  To “poor marketing”‘s point above, I never found a job by sending out resumes, it was always by working my network (which right out of school was admittedly small).  I should also mention that I was recently laid off and am again working my network for the next opportunity.

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15.

not enoughinfo
Dec 5, 2008 7:17 AM CST

There isn’t enough info in the story.  What was the graduate’s GPA ?  Did he just barely graduate ?  Is he a K-thru-JD without even a summer internship for experience ?  Are his cover letters and writing sample garbage ?  We do not know.  All of these could explain why he isn’t competitive on paper.  Some law students might have thought the last few euphoric years meant they did not have to work hard at school.  Those students may be in trouble now.

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16.

Philip M. Markella
Dec 5, 2008 7:17 AM CST

The market is difficult for the solos as well. I have been solo for 12 years and it seems that the market gets tougher every month. Too many lawyers add to the devaluation of our wervices because there is always someone who will provide a service for less. But at the end of the day, I still do better financially on my own then if I went to a firm. Stay the course, weather the storm. THis too shall pass.

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17.

Debbie
Dec 5, 2008 7:26 AM CST

It sucks.  I’ve been there.  Lenders will work with you on the loans, just don’t wait until the last minute to talk to them..  Next, take a job, any job.  Go to a legal temp agency and do whatever mind numbing task they give you.  In your free time go to Bar Association events, free seminars, start networking and come up with a Plan B, Plan C, etc.  .

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18.

BC
Dec 5, 2008 7:31 AM CST

I agree with everyone that is complaining about the glut of attorneys that law schools keep accepting and churning out.  My small tier 4 school has recently doubled the incoming class size of 1Ls.  During my 3L year a few years ago, they actually did not have enough seatsfor the students in the classrooms, and they had to improvise for a few weeks before they were able to get the funding to buy new tables and chairs.  At one point, students were sitting on the ground. 

I argue that it is unethical for law schools and universities to be accepting so many law school students on a yearly basis. How can you take $150,000 from students for three years of education, and then wish them luck as they enter a horrible job market with little to no job prospects available?  If your grads are having trouble finding jobs in their field (and the 92% is HIGHLY suspect) then there should be no reason to take on an additional 20 students the following year (or 100 as the case was for my school). 

As for Andrew above, I feel your pain.  I’m sure he did apply to the big 4 accounting firms.  I had a friend who received his LLM in Tax from BU, and he couldn’t land a job with the Big 4.  He’s at a smaller tax firm, but it was a tough job search for him, and he was unemployed for close to seven months before he found something.  Good luck, buddy.

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19.

Thanks ABA
Dec 5, 2008 7:38 AM CST

I agree with the comment that the ABA is part of the problem here. They’ve allowed too many bad law schools to be created. What they should do is start closing down law schools where the students have low bar pass rates. Trim the fat and lessen the amount of new lawyers with tons of debt and no job prospects..

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20.

Annonymous
Dec 5, 2008 7:48 AM CST

I sense the problem is the apparent K-thru-LL.M history.  That would explain the $150,000 in student loans.  I sense there were no summer jobs, paid internsips, military service (G.I. Bill benefits) or other pre-law school   employment, or employment concurrent with law school, with even meager savings that could be applied toward tuition or living expenses.

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21.

Anonymous
Dec 5, 2008 7:52 AM CST

The ABA neither creates law schools nor shuts them down.  The ABA does accredit those it finds fit under its guidelines.  The several law schools in California that cannot achieve accreditation by the ABA never sought approval to be created - and some of the schools couldn’t care less what the ABA thinks.

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22.

Michigan Resident
Dec 5, 2008 8:00 AM CST

Problem #1 = Michigan State.  Who knew they had a law school?  Problem #2 = 300 resume email blitz.  Employers love resume spam.

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23.

Patrick
Dec 5, 2008 8:03 AM CST

There are always jobs out there for good and talented people.  You don’t see any Harvard grads complaining.  Instead, its people from low level schools who never should have gone to law school.

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24.

ABA is a monopoly
Dec 5, 2008 8:04 AM CST

Some guy in Mass., that graduated from Concord LS, an internet school not accredited by the ABA, just won the right to sit for the MA bar exam, which does not allow non ABA or internet grads to sit for the BAR. In that ruling ht judges mentioned that ABA is looking into accrediting correspondence schools. Further 4 grads from concord recently were admitted to the Supreme Court to the US. ABA IS A SHAM. The DOJ is onto them.

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25.

OldShark
Dec 5, 2008 8:06 AM CST

The ABA is a strange group.  They seem to represent the interests of the liberal aspects of the profession and the big firms.  Both want more lawyers.  Large firms want more cattle to choose from.  Liberals think a law degree is a ticket out of poverty.

And by the way, it’s a profit thing.  Licencing additional law schools is a profit center for the ABA.  There will be no end to the creation of additional schools or the knighting of more attorneys.  The ABA wants it; the big firms want it; and the liberals in Chicago who run the thing both profit and think they are doing righteous work.

The last 10 years has seen an explosion of the numbers of attorneys disbarred, suspended, and sanctioned.  This is a result of the profession trying to trim the heard because the schools and ABA keep pumping out lawyers.  I think most would agree this is not a benefit to the lawyers with huge loans or the public.

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26.

Patrick
Dec 5, 2008 8:09 AM CST

More lawyers means more competition which means lower rates.  That is GOOD for the public.

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27.

Jason
Dec 5, 2008 8:12 AM CST

I agree with #26.  Hourly rates are way too high at most firms.  There is no reason to ever pay $500 or more an hour for legal work.

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28.

ABA is a Monoploly
Dec 5, 2008 8:13 AM CST

To many attorneys? for who? Try telling that to middle class America that can’t afford to hire an atty….All these new attorneys only want to make $160,000 a year that the shiny law school brochure told them they could make to justify the $150,000 tuition. I say open more schools and let the market determine what attorneys should make.

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29.

Marilyn Mann
Dec 5, 2008 8:18 AM CST

My impression is that people who get an L.L.M. are usually trying to compensate for something (e.g., mediocre grades and/or law school).  I work at a federal agency and applicants with L.L.M.s in the area of law relevant to my agency really don’t get much, if any, advantage from having that degree.  (After all, very few people doing the hiring have an L.L.M. so why would they hire someone who has a paper credential that they don’t have?)  Experience, law school, grades, interpersonal skills, references—those are the things that count.  And, I agree, the fact that he went to law school where he did indicates he wasn’t able to get into a better law school, like University of Michigan, for instance.

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30.

ABA is a monopoly
Dec 5, 2008 8:18 AM CST

I think that the ABA should stop accrediting law schools period. Then maybe the tuition for law school won’t put kids into $150,000 worth of debt. Maybe then the $35,000 that law grads are worth when they graduate could be enough to pay lower tuitions. Another look at law grads is that they have a sense of entitlement, they think that they are worth a large salary because they made the wrong choice by choosing to go to law school, thinking that they are going to get paid $160,000 salaries, because the law school tricked them into believing that is what they were going to be making when they graduate. This is the next credit crisis, just like in Wall St. you have the CDS, here you have the law school debt. The brochures law schools use to lure kids should be regulated and confirmed to prove that 98% got offers and the 90 % make $90K. Law schools usually only use selective groups to rely on.

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31.

Akman
Dec 5, 2008 8:20 AM CST

Why would I want to spend 7 years in college to earn $35,000?  We deserve $160,000 a year and now that Obama is president, everyone will make more money.

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32.

MIchigan State Law Student
Dec 5, 2008 8:21 AM CST

To Michigan Resident:

Problem #1 is NOT MSU’s Law School. MSU College of Law, Formerly Detroit College of Law, has been around for over 100 years, and a with the recent partnership with Michigan State University (1999), is only growing in notoriety. 

In addition, problem #2, if you’ll read the student’s statement, he not only used the email, but also used snail mail.  Typically employers specify how they want applicants to send materials; email is an acceptable form and is not considered SPAM…

Cheers.

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33.

eliz
Dec 5, 2008 8:25 AM CST

ABA - PLEASE stop accrediting law schools. Please.  Stop.

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34.

USC
Dec 5, 2008 8:25 AM CST

What tier is MSU in?

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35.

Rich F.
Dec 5, 2008 8:25 AM CST

I might have been one of the 300 firms who received a resume.  It’s easy to spot “blanket” mailings and “canned” resumes, and they go straight into the trash can.  I have received resumes with 26 spelling errors; resumes addressed to “Dear Hiring Partner,” and resumes that made me wonder why they were ever sent to me in the first place, e.g., a person whose entire life and education has been in the city of St. Louis, sending a resume to a tiny firm in a little Pennsylvania town 1,000 miles away.
I compiled a list of how not to get a job, but it’s too long to print here.
Andy, you should have established some sort of relationship with a law office when you started law school.  It’s too late for that now, but if you have any hope for landing a job, you have to personalize your resume.  Research each firm to which you are applying; know something about it; find a common interest; let the firm know why you want to work with that firm in that location, and make sure the firm has (or should have) a practice in your field of expertise.  Make sure you address your letter to a person who has hiring authority.  It is very helpful to have a recommender who his known to the firm, and to be familiar with landmark cases handled by the firm. Obviously, if you have sent out 300 resumes, you haven’t done any of this. Oh - also be sure you do not have a single error in your resume.

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36.

Rich F.
Dec 5, 2008 8:26 AM CST

Sorry about the typo in my previous response.

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37.

Exactly the Same
Dec 5, 2008 8:27 AM CST

I saw this headline and I’m not surprised.  I too have sent out EXACTLY 300 resumes so far since August and have received EXACTLY one interview, and nothing came of it.  I’m at a second tier school very near the top ten percent of my class.  To anyone who graduated in the 80’s and insists we need to “work connections” or that we’re complaining too much, bear in mind that a lot of us (like me) are carrying a six-figure load of debt on our backs, and not all of us are fortunate enough to come from well-to-do families.  I network by emailing alumni I’ve never met and depending on my former bosses to fish out my resume, but it’s a brick wall out there.  The only people I’ve seen succeed are those at the very top of their class, and those lucky enough to come from families with connections (even if their grades are sub-par).  It’s survival of the haves over the have-nots right now.

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38.

Stop going to law school
Dec 5, 2008 8:31 AM CST

Why would someone go to law school and incur that kind of debt?

Why not work for a few years in whatever you got your undergrad degree in first and earn some money and experience?

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39.

Earned it!
Dec 5, 2008 8:37 AM CST

I’m tired of winy little sissy’s that say they “deserve” a $ 160,000.  You have to earn it, wimp!  I came out of law school with a new divorce and death of my mom in the last year.  I was virtually homeless.  I applied for a state job and got hired as a public defender in Kentucky earning $40,000.  Worked there for a year for the experience and then opened my own office.  I have EARNED a six figure income ever since and I don’t think I “deserve” it, I EARNED it!  Quit your whining and asking for a handout!  Get out there and make yourself instead of relying on someone else to do it for you. Wimp.

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40.

Jonathan
Dec 5, 2008 8:39 AM CST

Reading some of these responses makes me me think people may be right about us lawyers - we are kind of elitist jerks

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41.

Anonymous
Dec 5, 2008 8:44 AM CST

Response # 29 from above Marilyn Mann:

Interesting insight into the LL.M market.  I am curious what your agency’s area of practice is.  Many law professors have LL.M’s, and most of those professors come from top schools and had top grades.

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42.

change is here
Dec 5, 2008 8:44 AM CST

We deserve free health care, free college education, managible mortgage rates, etc.

The era of King George is over.  Americans will now get what we deserve.

A law school degree equals at least $100,000 a year salary.

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43.

Justin
Dec 5, 2008 8:46 AM CST

I’m graduating this December….for three years I have been preaching to my law school and friends that who you know is more important than a 4.0!!!  The proof is in the pudding, I have a 2.8 and have 4 offers because of who I know.  Remember, passing the bar equalizes everyone….then you prove yourself in the trenches like everyone else.  Law school is a big prep for the bar, that is it!!! be smart and get to know people over the 3 years you have in school.

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44.

Nassar El Sadeem
Dec 5, 2008 8:48 AM CST

Go to the BLS website and look at the job prospects manual they have under the lawyer job heading.  It basically states that the demand for attorneys is relatively healthy and growing with the population but calls job prospects “keen”, meaning there is intense competition to get a job.  The 92% number in this article is probably derived from the US News rankings, which are taken from LSs inflated numbers both in salary and % in the field.  Here’s another figure- at 5yrs after graduation only about 50% of LS graduates are practicing law.  Prospective students are handed a crock by the LSs… that’s the only reason I can think someone would spend $100k to get a job that averages $50k.  I agree with the above comments on going solo right after graduating- it’s not really an option with a $100k loan on your back and is a malpractice suit waiting to happen- I run into these clowns from time to time and wonder how they’re still in business.

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45.

Responding to Justin
Dec 5, 2008 8:50 AM CST

Justin, I appreciate your candor, but that makes me sick.  A lot of us don’t have the luxury of your connections, and can’t make them so easily.

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46.

Barry McCarthy
Dec 5, 2008 8:53 AM CST

I plan to graduate law school in the future. I will work for myself from home. There is no fear of no job.  A good criminal defense lawyer will always be neede with our nation of criminal laws.

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47.

Dan
Dec 5, 2008 8:56 AM CST

Maybe he should have sent out 50 resumes and taken a little more time to craft each one to the employers.

I got a decent job right out of law school this year (before graduation, actually) in a very specific geographic area (because I own a home), and I sent maybe 10 resumes out.  The key is persistence.  I simply would not stop following up until I was face to face with the hiring partners, and then I would not stop until they gave me a decision.

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48.

Here Here
Dec 5, 2008 9:02 AM CST

Earned it hits the nail on the head.  A degree from a top tier LS doesn’t mean jack in these times.  Where do you get your $160K?  From the large corporate firms.  What do you give for that?  Your life.  You’re subject to their whims and turns in fortune. Read: Disposable.  You can take control of your destiny but you won’t be doing it sucking on the $160K teat.  Readjust your sights,  Quit whining - it’s so uncool. Put on the hip-waders and get involved in the street-level practice of law.  Imagine that - having to deal with commoners in such banal endeavors as divorces and criminal cases.  If you ‘ve got anything more going for you than the fancy sheepskin,  you’ll do fine—eventually.  The times they are achangin’

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49.

ABA is a Monopoly
Dec 5, 2008 9:04 AM CST

The situation is going to get a lot worse. Law firms are laying off experienced associates, which means that there are fewer jobs and more competition against experience attorneys. Brace yourselves, may some of you can go back to school and getting a useful degree like an MBA. Great, Great Depression her we come…

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50.

Jason
Dec 5, 2008 9:09 AM CST

2008 is a different market.  Everyone that think this guy can just “network” his way to a job, is clearly misguided. 

The big 4 has stopped hiring entry level jobs.  Law firms have closed their doors to entry level candidates not at one of the top 5 schools.  It is extremely rough out there. 

The problem is not the individual.  The problem is our profession.  More than 40,000 jobs are outsourced each year.  Jobs that would have gone to entry level attorneys.  Read the recent WSJ article about the subject.  It is sad.

Our profession is becoming even more pathetic.  Something needs to done to decrease the supply of attorneys and/or increase the number of jobs. 

Instead of increasing your profits per partner or maintaining your profits per partner at 1.5 million, lowering it by 20% to hire an extra 20 people would be right thing to do. 

Never has the profession been so bleak.

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