Lawyer Pay
Law School Secret: Bad Job Market
Posted Sep 24, 2007 5:04 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
The job market is tough for many recent law grads, who are pointing their fingers at law schools for failing to warn them about their dim prospects.
Top pay for new associates at the big law firms is $160,000, but most beginning lawyers make far less at the same time they are paying off tuition loans as high as $100,000 or more, the Wall Street Journal reports (sub. req.). Some newly minted lawyers are taking temporary attorney jobs that pay only $20 an hour.
Law professor Richard Sander of the University of California at Los Angeles told the newspaper that incoming law students are "mesmerized by what's happening in big firms, but clueless about what's going on in the bottom half of the profession."
Critics argue that law school job surveys are misleading. Tulane University, for example, found in a survey that its graduates entering the job market in 2005 took home median pay of $135,000. But the number is based only on the 24 percent of its grads who completed the survey—likely to be the top students, Tulane says.
Tulane's latest survey shows average new pay for its grads to be of $96,356, but the school's Web site does not reveal what percentage filled out the questionnaire.
Salaries are depressed because of a big influx of lawyers into a slowly growing legal market, which is expanding less than half as fast as the general economy. Almost 44,000 students graduated from law schools in 2005-06, an increase of nearly 6,000 since 2001-02.
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Comments
Nancy
Sep 28, 2007 7:59 AM CST
Legal education has become big business in the truest sense of the term “big business”. The more students lured into the door, the bigger the “cash cow” that monetarily nourishes the growing legal educational industry. Surveys are highly misleading. Six months after graduating from law school, I received a call asking if I had any employment—part time and even non-legal employment. Clearly, had I been working as a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, I would have been added to the survey column: “students securing employment within 9 months of graduation”.
Law school reform is long overdue. One possible answer is to reduce law school to two years and require a one-year PAID apprenticeship. Another caveat: never rely on the fox for information regarding the hen house.
Prospective students also have a duty to investigate the job market prior to leaping into the $100,000+ abyss of law student debt.
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SK
Sep 28, 2007 8:00 AM CST
This article is very true and accurate, especially for an individual living in a major city where the job market should be more flexible. As a 2007 graduate, not only are there very few jobs to apply to, but the jobs that are being offered usually consist of a salary range between $30-40,000. I am insulted with the salaries offered to first year associates, especially knowing I could be a paralegal for $50,000. I have had to resort to taking a legal secretary temp position which offers me $20 an hour, which is more than I was offered for a contract attorney position for $17. I certainly was not prepared when I graduated to be at such a loss for a job, the low pay I was expected to recieve, and the arrogance of the hiring attorneys who know that I am too desperate to perhaps pass up such a low offer.
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Norm
Sep 28, 2007 8:09 AM CST
Be prepared to go where the jobs are. In my state, New Mexico, very few entry positions are going to pay $100,000 but if you are willing to locate away from Albuquerque or Santa Fe, there’s plenty of work in the $50,000 range and our cost of living is low enough to make that work.
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Elizabeth Royal
Sep 28, 2007 8:20 AM CST
One remedy could be for the states to put a limit on the number of attorney licenses they are willing to grant to applicants each year. This could be accomplished by increasing the bar exam difficulty or by lottery. In any case, the level of desperation among unemployed and underemployed attorneys deserves strong intervention.
Blaming the victim, who was deceived into a $100,000 government guarantied loan, will be of little service. We believed in the American promise that if you go to school and study hard, you will be able to provide well for yourself.
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A Lawyer
Sep 28, 2007 8:25 AM CST
From jdunderground:
The ABA has representatives for each district. Kind of like a congressman. Contact your representative and say this article alerted you to a problem that needs to be dealt with
—————-
Do this. Do this now. Strike while the iron is hot.
Remember, we used to make fun of L4L, telling him that his b*tching and whining would get him nowhere, that he didn’t have the balls to leave the law, etc. Now he’s broken the story to the WSJ, and the ABA has picked it up.
ALL OF YOU. WRITE YOUR ABA REPRESENTATIVE NOW. NOW!!!
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DC
Sep 28, 2007 8:27 AM CST
Suck it up, kids. Nobody owes you anything.
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Old Associate
Sep 28, 2007 8:31 AM CST
Or, take the $40K job and get experience. Just because the first couple years are tough doesn’t mean it gets easier and the pay incrementally higher. It gets easier.
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A Lawyer
Sep 28, 2007 8:34 AM CST
If any ABA representatives are reading, the situation is dire, and morale is very low among graduates in most law schools. Please look beyond the inflated numbers being reported for the largest law firms. 90% of law graduates will never see the insides of those firms. That is a fact.
The truth is… most law school graduates will be lucky to find a job - any job - legal or non-legal. The lucky ones get temporary discovery work for a living hourly wage, but even those are being offshored to India.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aBo8DnfekWZQ&refer=news
The WSJ article about the abysmal attorney job market and the article in Bloomberg about offshoring discovery work overseas is only the tip of the iceberg.
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A Lawyer
Sep 28, 2007 8:35 AM CST
Dear “Old Associate”:
Pray tell, how can one take a $40,000 job if his loan payments are $1500 a month? Ah, this is why you’re a lawyer and not an accountant.
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G
Sep 28, 2007 8:40 AM CST
Unless you are absolutely passionate about practicing law (and how many of us are?), just don’t go to law school if you can’t get into a top-50 or so school. Go to b-school, start a business or do something else with your three years and $100,000+.
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Some more desperation
Sep 28, 2007 8:40 AM CST
It looks really bad…
In this thread, people are contemplating getting retail jobs and waiter jobs.
http://jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=4578
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at the other end in NYC
Sep 28, 2007 8:46 AM CST
I agree with A Lawyer… Try being at the other end, 40 plus and looking for a job. Some of us are expected to support those kids going to college and law school and are making less than the starting salaries iat big firms and can’t find anything better.
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Phil
Sep 28, 2007 8:52 AM CST
Ms. Royal’s suggestion is about what I expected to find here: “One remedy could be for the states to put a limit on the number of attorney licenses they are willing to grant to applicants each year.”
Tough times for the cartel? Just make the cartel smaller!
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MTC
Sep 28, 2007 8:57 AM CST
I’m not sure why this is just now making the news I graduated from law school in 1998. The surveys concerning how much attorneys make have always been highly misleading. I have no idea what they are based on. I know many attorneys who graduated with me that still don’t make anything like $135,000.
Most of the jobs that were offered to me out of law school came in two flavors government work (DA and PD work) at modest state salaries and sink or vaguely entrepreneurial positions that basically offered me a free office, and possible a small stipend of some sort, in someone’s firm if I could bring in billable hours.
I still don’t make as much as the surveys suggested I should but my law degree has served me well. I just wish someone could do a really reliable study on what attorneys’ incomes are so that I could quite hearing from my family about why I don’t make more money.
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Bill
Sep 28, 2007 8:57 AM CST
The party is over - even first and second years make $150k+ know that they are constantly at risk of getting the ax, as there are thousands more ready to fill their shoes. Firm Managements know this, which gives rise to the 80-hour work week, with a 2000 hour minimum (yeah right), which is more like hit 2200+ or don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Welcome to LAW2007. Better off taking the $90k job and put off by a condo and a nice car for 5 or 6 years. Better yet, skip law schoo, become a sales rep and hear $100k+ with benefits and very little student loans. After 3 years you’ll be so ahead of the game that it’ll make law school look like an exercise in financial irresponsibility.
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TriLawyer
Sep 28, 2007 8:58 AM CST
My experience with law students today and law schools - this article is DEAD ON. As for the uncaring jackal who posted “Suck it up kids. Nobody owes you anything” - forget about that person. No where did I read in this article or have I experienced in my numerous contacts, people are clamoring for what is “owed” them. They don’t want to be intentionally misled for profit by others. Wow - what a HUGE expectation! Imagine…honesty. You see “DC” - something IS owed - honesty, forthrightness and a sense of ethics. I am sure you understand.
I also think it is interesting to look at the OTHER side of this story. So - let’s say you all GET the $160,000/yr job. Sure, it pays the bills (but less than you may think) - but do you really WANT that job? I have HAD that job. Although I could go on for a long while about the fraudulent and sham work/life at major law firms, I will just say this: The answer to this article’s question and the one I posed - think thoroughly before you leap.
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SO
Sep 28, 2007 9:00 AM CST
Nancy wrote “Prospective students also have a duty to investigate the job market prior to leaping into the $100,000+ abyss of law student debt.”
A good part of that research is looking at law school employment statistics. When these statistics are inflated and fraudulent it’s hard to make an accurate opinion about the market.
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Brian
Sep 28, 2007 9:01 AM CST
Let the marketplace take care of itself. Leave this one alone. People are already catching on to the fact that non tier 1 private law schools are a huge scam. If you can not get into a public law school in your state then you probably should not be going to law school in the first place. That lack of ability to get into a good law school is the same trait that leads one to take out $100k in loans to go to a private school where your job prospects are very bad. These poor souls are just unintelligent people doing what unintellgent people do (making bad decisions).
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TriLawyer
Sep 28, 2007 9:02 AM CST
PS: Great posts by Bill and SO. Also dead on.
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Ronnie
Sep 28, 2007 9:03 AM CST
Actually, I agree with Old Associate. I have 200k in law debt on a $65k job. It’s called “talk to your lenders.” They have programs to help work things out. You can often get a hardship forbearance, income-sensitive option, etc. Some lenders, such as the one I use, will give a forbearance if your loans equal more than 20% of your gross pay. I make more than 40k with a payment of less than $1500 and it was more than 20% of my pay, so I know arrangements can be made. It may not be the favorite solution, but it is a solution. Oh, and make a budget people! I know of very few people who can’t make ends meet on $20/hour, even with loans and a high cost of living (DC Metro). Stop complaining and do something for yourself. As DC says, no one owes you anything, especially if you’re not taking proactive steps to accommodate your own situation.
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Anonymous
Sep 28, 2007 9:04 AM CST
Should law schools curb their enthusiasm to rake in more profits by being completely truthful about the reality of the post-law school job market? Absolutely. I think only the best lawyers tell the truth, so it would be surprising to learn that prestigious schools like Tulane would feel that in the interest of making money, com[promising this value by being less than fully transparent is embarrassing at best, actionable at worst. However, should more advance research be done by prospective law school students—who these days are somewhat of a “brain drain” and bright enough to know better? You bet. Shame on them for blind faith in “American promise” when these days things have changed. Where there once was loyalty between employers and employees, today this seems gone. Kudos for recognizing that a strong work ethic is important, but being a success in law these days just takes more.
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Dayslaw
Sep 28, 2007 9:09 AM CST
Before starting my 7 years of school, in 1994, at age 40, I asked finanical aid to just give me the $100,000 loan and I would return it at the end of the year, with interest, and double it each year thereafter, as I always found a way to double my money playing around with cars and trucks. In 1993, the year before I started college, I made $54,000. In 2003, after finally getting through school and the bar, I made less than I did in 1994, and 2006 was the first year that I made a little bit more than 1994. Too bad they wouldn’t just loan me the $100,000!
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DC
Sep 28, 2007 9:10 AM CST
Well, sir or ma’am, perhaps your “contacts” need to get a little wider. All I hear on boards such as this, and in the real world, is whining and bitterness from people who have been raised to believe that everything will be handed to them.
I have never heard any law school guarantee that everyone who graduates will get a high-paying job. If a law school made such a promise, you should have had them reduce it to writing. I understand that the unemployed and under-employed graduates aren’t entirely at fault - they were raised by their feel-good baby-boom parents to think that the entire world existed to cater to them.
Well, kids, you’re going to have to make your own way out there. It stinks you had to wait until you’re 26 to figure it out, but figure it out you will. Best of luck.
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Gen Yer
Sep 28, 2007 9:14 AM CST
Clearly there is an abyss between the experienced attorneys and the new graduates. I understand the value of taking a low paying job to earn your stripes and then move up. This type of approach was effective 10, 20, 30 years ago. However, the economics of law schoool graduates today does not allow an associate to earn his or her stripes while avoiding bankruptcy.
The comment by DC raises one question: How much student loan debt did you graduate with? With your use of the word kids, I can only assume that you are an established member of the law community. Therefore, I inherently value your opinion. However, your attitude as reflected in your comment makes me wonder if you seek to help nurture and train a new generation of attorneys or if you hope that the profession will fade into the sunset as you do.
There needs to be an open dialogue within the legal community so that all attorneys, no matter what age, may be able to understand the reason for the abyss and seek to build a bridge. If we fail to do this, then the wisdom of established attorneys will be lost.
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Matt
Sep 28, 2007 9:18 AM CST
Right on Ronnie. It is what it is. So is life, deal with it.
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Unemployed
Sep 28, 2007 9:24 AM CST
I agree! This market sucks! I graduated in May and I am thinking about changing professions already…and haven’t practiced a day in my life! The first person that offers me a job from ANY industry has me…
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Old News
Sep 28, 2007 9:29 AM CST
There’s nothing new here. I graduated law school in 1996 and it took me almost a year to find full-time employment. When I got it, I had to remain in my small one bedroom and rely on public transportation to get anywhere. I ate granola bars for dinner and had the social life of a hermit - not because I was working so many hours but because I couldn’t afford four or five drinks at the local tavern. It was terrible, and those were some dark days. But I stuck it out, managed to make my loan payments every month, paid off those loans and have since worked hard enough that my current salary is six times what it was at my first full-time job.
If you want $160K per year as a first year, more power to you, but you better prepared to work hard not simply to get that job, but to keep it. The summer associate perks end as soon as you take possession of that law license. Think about the economics of it. If they’re paying you $160K, and if they’re charging in the neighborhood of $100K in overhead to you, you need to bill at least $260K per year before you are profitable to them. If as a first year you’re billing out at $200/hr, they’re going to expect at least 2000 hours out of you. It adds up to a work/no-life balance.
You can blame law school’s for beiing profit-driven (and probably also for not really preparing you to be an actual lawyer). You can blame Hollywood for glamorizing a profession that is really not that glamorous - no matter how much you might enjoy it. But there is an element of contributory negligence (I couldn’t let that pass) in all of this: there are plenty of resources out there (blogs, to name one) that paint the actual picture of earning potential for first-year grads and those entering law school ought to balance the reality of salaries against how much they take out in loans. Those who fail to make those determinations need to shoulder some of the blame for the predicament they now find themselves in.
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Lee
Sep 28, 2007 9:30 AM CST
Thirty years ago it was pretty much the same deal. Each law grad cannot have the preferred job in the preferred location at the preferred salary. Much like the “no student left behind” program advanced by certain politicians, it is statistically impossible to have everyone above the average.
We believe what we want to believe and the natural and predictable consequences may teach us otherwise.
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Sheila B.
Sep 28, 2007 9:31 AM CST
I wonder if, knowing the reality of the legal profession in all of its stressors piled on to the expense, how many attorneys would do it over again? How many would do it, but do it differently? Friends in the profession warned me before law school and I didn’t listen. Now I have a six-figure loan, three kids and a mortgage to support, and am earning a small fraction over my pre law school income. Yes, I believed my law school statistics on salary. I should have done more research, but I earnestly believed that lawyers who worked hard woul d live comfortably. So to answer my own question, I would not do it again because of the career options limited by law school debt, the commute, and the stress, which is not justified by the moderate pay.
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The John Bungsolaphagus
Sep 28, 2007 9:32 AM CST
You only briefly and with little detail, touch upon the most important article on the state of the so-called legal “profession” to come out in years, if not ever? Short shrift to the “shot heard round the world” or the “atom bomb” of an article that accurately depicts the state of affairs for the MAJORITY of non-top 14 law school graduates who graduated from the beginning of the end in 2001 through the present?
If you folks, who are allegedly the stewards of the “profession” of the “law” truly care about the MAJORITY of those who make up said god awful “profession” then you need to make it your business to read the non-legal koolaid drinker’s postings, threads, blogs and comments on sites like JDunderground.com, temporaryattorney.blogspot.com, slumberingdogmatist.blogspot.com (which seems to have been taken down), barelylegalblog.blogspot.com, stateofbeasley.blogspot.com and others.
Be certain to read the posts of the patron saint for loser lawyers Scott Bullock a.k.a. “Law Is 4 Losers” and “L4L” which often describe work in lawland as being mostly paper pushing “make work”. Make work? Hmmm. What does that mean? Are we talking “fake” work? Work that really needn’t be done or, more importantly, shouldn’t be billed to the client but most obviously and most often is? Think about that one, will you? That is a major scandal in as of itself.
Why is there often and deliberately no training in lawland? Does sending out a newly minted, inexperienced attorney to do a task with absolutely no instruction, training or guidance make for efficient time management and accurate billing? Purposely withholding key nuggets of information from a deer in the headlights associate so that a 2 hour task becomes an 8 hour task that gets billed to the client as at least 6 hours billable time? Why is it that there very rarely is any training in lawland? Especially in mid sized or small law firms? Why is it that the associate ends up getting blamed for mishaps in such scenarios?
Go read the post on the “Demented Santa” on Tom The Temp’s temporaryattorney.blogspot.com which gives you insight into the behavior and contempt that most lawfirm partners show and have for recent graduate associates.
If you want to see what most of us non-top 14 law school grads are going through in this rapidly eroding “profession” then see the mountains of threads, postings and comments of those associates and young attorneys who are treated by the powers that be (law firms, partners, staffing agencies…) as though they are peons under the feudal system, untouchables in the caste system in India (speaking of India, what are you, over at the A.B.A. doing to prevent the outsourcing of doc review jobs, the only jobs available to many of us, to India?), and with the utter contempt that was shown to African American plantation slaves in the old south and to African Americans in American Society today.
A serious groundswell that could lead to a damn near rebellion or exodus from and collapse of the so-called “profession” of the “law” is occurring here and you only briefly comment on the WSJ article? For god’s sake, it’s so bad that a young lawyer, who happened to be a Rabbi, jumped out of a law firm’s window in the Empire State Building in New York this summer! A Rabbi, in New York, who had such bad experiences as a young lawyer at a law firm that he took the plunge to his death.
What is it going to take for you to starting looking at getting us recent law grad associates some decent treatment and fairness? Hostage takings? With the amount of misled and disillusioned recent law school grad attorneys being trampled upon by this profession on a daily basis, hostage takings, or worse, can very well occur at a law firm near you in the near future. These kids have been promised the world, by society in general and their law school admissions and career office’s post grad employment statistics in particular, only to find PEONAGE after admission to the bar. They often have to endure god awful and oft times ILLEGAL treatment or face unemployment and then default on mountainous law school loan debt.
It only takes one recent grad to flip out. You, the A.B.A., need to get these firms, staffing agencies and partners in check. Get them to treat us with some decency or sooner or later you better keep an eye out for your local news. And expect the worst if you don’t negate the oncoming outsourcing of the remaining crumbs of document review jobs to India.
God bless the patron saint for loser lawyers, Scott Bullock (a.k.a. Law is 4 Losers) and the author of the ground breaking Wall Street Journal article, Amir Efrati.
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Anonymous
Sep 28, 2007 9:32 AM CST
I would never take a lawyer job for $30K; I worked for $25K in a law firm before I had a day of law school classes!!! I also have 7 years of retail & worked in a job not requiring weekends so anything like waitressing or retail i.e. a grunt job where weekends are not optional is out of the question at this point. I also got enough positions in my field to get rid of all retail references on my resume. I could make more money in adult entertainment & demean myself just as much. Plus my husband’s a librarian & when an entry-level librarian is making more than a lawyer, that’s a bad sign.
I’m actually doing entertainment internships right now since I want to be an entertainment lawyer. I get to see all sides of the legal aspects and get connections with people in the field. Soon, however, I will need money (and I don’t need $100K+; $75K will be fine). I saved a lot ahead of time to cover moving, taking the bar & finding work. One internship has the chance for me to get it & the person I’m working w/is aware that I have $350K in loans to repay. I’d like working for the company so long as I can pay off the loans since I refuse to still pay them in my 50s.
If some of these firms want to engender loyalty in new employees, they need to increase the pay so they don’t leave in 2 or 3 years for much higher pay. Not everyone is in law review, has parents who are lawyers or was born to money (which has a strong impact on grades anyway since who can afford all the study aides you MUST have). Comments like “go to the top law schools” prove to me that this profession is still based on money & a smart person from lower means might as well just become a criminal since he’ll never make it.
And DC, I wasn’t born to money so I certainly do not have an entitlement attitude—I wouldn’t know what to do with $100K a year so most of it would end up in loan payments & savings/investments; I just refuse to do the same thing my parents are doing when I’ve got twice the education. Common sense also dictates that more education = more money; how many times do you hear people telling others to go to school???? A college degree would get me far less pay than I can get as a J.D.
For the record, these folks trying to do retail & waiting tables are not going to get those jobs w/J.D.s (if they have a day of experience, forget it); you can’t even get paralegal work unless you’ve not taken the bar or say you don’t plan to become licensed. When I was in law school, people kept telling me to work in retail again like someone would hire a law student with 7 years of experience—are we familiar with the phrase “overqualified”????
Such jobs are a huge step down, DC so get off your ivory tower and take a look at how things really are. A law graduate should not be considering a job that college students take (I actually did retail in high school so you can see why I object to doing it).
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New Lawyer
Sep 28, 2007 9:40 AM CST
One should not leverage oneself more than can be repaid, for education, or opening a business. If you do, you’ll fail. There is money and an enjoyable life to be found in the law, but its not worth $100k of debt, because at that amount a law student wont find it.
I went to a state school incurred $30k of debt while working through summers in lawschool and now I am making $50k, own a home, can take off early on Friday, and I’m building my practice. I would not be able to do that if I had leveraged my self to the hilt. Know what your getting into, and let those who don’t deal with their lack of foresight.
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Southern Belle
Sep 28, 2007 9:42 AM CST
This is a sad reality. I deal with this dilemma everyday. My mostly middle class family does not understand why I never seem to have any money and why I am always complaining about my expenses. They see me in this profession and think that I must have some other problem - other than low wages. What a misnomer. Between paying back my law loans and trying to live each day, there is nothing left to save for the future. I can’t say that I wasn’t warned by older lawyers before I entered law school. However, I was also misled by a slick law school recruiter who painted a very deceptive portrait of how my law degree from that high cost/prestigious law school was going to positively impact my and my family’s financial future.
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Gen Yer
Sep 28, 2007 9:42 AM CST
I hate to use a cliche term of my generation, but those attorneys who dismiss the realities of today’s new attorneys are raging against the machine. We are slowly becoming the majority in this profession. This is reality is a small beam of light at the end of the tunnel for those of us who are waiting for change. Patience fellow assoiates, our time is drawing near.
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DC
Sep 28, 2007 9:44 AM CST
Got that tin-foil screwed on pretty tight there, don’t you, John Bungsolaphagus?
I’ve been to India and comparing yourself to a member of India’s “untouchable” caste or to slaves held on plantations (!) is a ridiculous insult. If you believed that graduating from law school would immediately equal a porsche and a big house, that’s your problem. People who get their world view from TV, and feel they have been promised things by (ahem) “society in general” usually get exactly what they deserve.
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STL Atty
Sep 28, 2007 10:08 AM CST
I’m a partner in a top St. Louis, MO law firm. I graduated law school 15 years ago but didn’t get my first job as an attorney until 10 months after I passed the bar exam. Had the student loan debt, very few interviews, and regret that I made the wrong career choice.. Made ends meet doing odd jobs, some legal, some not, during the 15 mos following law school graduation. This was a very humbling experience but when I finally got that first job allowing me to practice law, I vowed never to be unemployed or underemployed again and busted my butt in every way imaginable to learn how to be a trial attorney. Today I have a very successful practice (and client base) but I don’t know if I ever would’ve made it this far had I not developed a fire in my gut during the lean times following law school. Moral of the story for those of you struggling to get that first job: work like hell to get it regardless of the pay and then work twice as hard to master whatever area of law you are lucky enough to practice in. The money and hopefully cllients will come but don’t expect a six figure salary until you can bring something more than “potential” to the table. I was able to write my own ticket after developing a portable book of business. Took some time and a little luck, but that was the key to getting me where I am now.
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Jesse
Sep 28, 2007 10:10 AM CST
I completely agree with the article. I graduated from a “third tier” school and looked to stay in Ohio - a depressed economy. While my school inflated the median salary to over $40,000 - still modest, the career placement office gave students the expectation that making $50 -$75k in Cleveland was entirely possible in private practice. That turned out to be a complete lie. I now have my own practice (four years out of law school) and last year grossed about $55k - not counting expenses. What the law schools don’t tell you is that if you don’t make it in the top 10% or top 25% of your class you will be clawing your way out of a pit just trying to find a job, with no chance of making 80-100k your first year out.
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Now retired at 52
Sep 28, 2007 10:18 AM CST
Congratulations! You’ve now discovered the dirty little secret of the legal profession. In 1997, I received my JD and passed the bar. I was unemployed for 1-1/2 years and didn’t get a PDs job until I interned with them for 6 months. When I got the job, it was at the princely sum of $28,000 per annum. This was in spite of my extensive real estate and mortgage lending experience as a former CEO.
Unless you are in the top 10% of the class or you have strings to pull or favors to cash in, your stuck fighting for the crumbs at the bottom. Yes, you can still make it, but you’ve got to be good. Just remember: 90% of all law school graduates did not graduate in the top 10% of their class. Fortunately for me, when the job became too burdensome and dangerous, I was able to retire. I did so 1 week before I turned 50 because of my investment portfolio, not because of my earnings as an attorney. And, yes, I am much happier now. Good luck to you all – you are participating in the fight of your life!!
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Snobby in the City
Sep 28, 2007 10:33 AM CST
So this is what befalls the tens of thousands of graduates from low-ranked (read: tier 2, 3, and 4) law schools.
So many people end up going to law school simply because they don’t know what else to do. Really, I can’t blame them. I mean, what else can you actually do with a poli sci or history degree?
My advice: major in something USEFUL in college and get a job based on that skill. Alternatively, if you’re dead-set on being a lawyer, study your butt off, nail the LSAT and get into a top 20 school. Otherwise, don’t complain about having to take the $20/hr temp job (which, btw, is less than I make now as a second-year law student working part-time; hard work pays off; oh yeah, and being smart can help too).
Believe it or not, I actually agree with the article and the many folks who have said that schools need to be a bit more honest in their reporting of salaries. However, the responsibility ultimately falls on the individual to do her own research in order to make an informed decision. I couldn’t agree more with the “look before you leap” philosophy.
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The John Bungsolaphagus
Sep 28, 2007 10:45 AM CST
The post numbered 38 made by Now retired is one of the most on point postings on the nature of the law profession for 90% of the grads out there that I have ever seen. Now retired is not some sniveling gen “Yer” with major self entitlement issue, rather he is grown ass man who has done well in the real word of business and all of you lemmings out there should take heed to the iron in his words of wisdom. The lemmings and the ABA should know that his words are the truth about this god awful profession.
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Gina
Sep 28, 2007 10:48 AM CST
As a lawyer and a former law school Legal Career Professional, I, like many others, am distressed by the deceptively high salary “medians” and “averages” reported in surveys and reports. Unfortunately, as with the Tulane survey, many law graduates do not report their salaries to their schools. While they will happily inform us of their employment, they respectfully decline to share their salary information. These same individuals later ask us why we are “deceiving” law students what’s the real deal in the real world. My response is to tell those individuals that they contribute to the problem by not sharing salary information with us. When detailed is information received, then detailed information may be reported. So while it might not help increase the salaries, this detailed information will aid law students and those contemplating law school in knowing in advance what their financial future will be.
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Ronnie
Sep 28, 2007 10:53 AM CST
I rarely comment twice, but here it is. I went to one of the top 14 schools!! I graduated in the top 40% of my class. I still didn’t have a job when I graduated, and I promise you it wasn’t because I didn’t look. Those in the lower tiers assume that we in the uppers have life handed to us—it’s just not true. Did it ever occur to you that the reason so many jobs have low start ranges is because people have to actually BILL and GET PAID from the clients to cover their bills? I have to make sure I bill enough each month to cover what I cost, plus a share of overhead, receptionists, and our secretary. Not easy when there are only 3 attorneys in the office. Large firms have hundreds of attorneys all contributing to this, and that significantly helps reduce the per-person cost. Look, I’m not saying the law schools don’t bear some responsibility here. I’m just saying that a lot of students do have entitlement issues, and feel certain jobs are beneath them. My closest friends are a prosecutor, judicial clerk, victim’s rights advocate, and public defender. I know at least three of them have loans like I do, but sometimes you do break the pedestal you’re on to get to the one you deserve to have.
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A Dual Professional
Sep 28, 2007 11:04 AM CST
Everyone here is talking about practicing law, but there is a segment of students that do not intend to do so. I went to law school to use the education as an adjunct to my profession as an engineer. I have moved to the senior level in my organization because of extra skills and insight the law degree provided in managing large projects. The degree was worth every penny I paid.
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MadProfessor
Sep 28, 2007 11:06 AM CST
I am employed by a law school. Law schools are in the business of making money. To get that money, law schools will make things look as rosy as possible for the incoming students. I feel horrible every time I see an incoming class, most of whom will be over $100,000 in debt in three years, looking so optimistic - as though there is nothing but bright sun, blue skies, and a fat paycheck waiting for them. Do I blame the students for this unrealistic outlook? Absolutely not. I blame the institutions that gave these students skewed data that would make anyone want to earn a J.D. Someone needs to hold law schools accountable for their deceptive misrepresentations about post-law school legal employment. I have said many, many good things about the law school from which I graduated in 1992 - one of which is that the school NEVER mis-represented the fact that the legal employment market in its geographic area was in a major downturn with 2-5 year associates being laid off, etc. So I went in with my eyes open, thanks to having true information to evaluate.
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Johnson
Sep 28, 2007 11:12 AM CST
Im declaring bankruptcy and moving to Mexico.
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Gen Yer
Sep 28, 2007 11:13 AM CST
An assumption has been made that I am sniveling and that I have self entitlement issues.
That assumption is unfortunate. I am making $40,000 a year and I also have a very large debt, a family and mortgage payments. I do not want to become rich and, considering the western, low population state I live in, I have no grand ideas of earning a 6 figure salary. I merely want to provide for myself and my family which is difficult on my current salary.
It is clear that this particular issue is of great importance to some and dismissed by others. I suggest open communication and an attempt to understand the situation of the new associates. The more we throw mud and lose our tempers when trying to make a point, the less we will be heard. Take a deep breath John Bungsolaphogus.
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lionvt
Sep 28, 2007 11:14 AM CST
There are lots of professions with lousy starting salaries. There are lots of professions with a huge gap between the entry level positions and the highest echelons. So I don’t think us lawyers can pretend to be a special case or need special treatment. But I don’t think most people and most law students understand the law is like that.
And, in my experience, most established lawyers make a decent, if not spectacular, living.
However, where I think the disconnect is an incorrect perception of the types of salaries that your average attorney makes by both the populace and law students (often promoted by gushy articles including those in the ABA journal (http://www.abajournal.com/news/3100_a_week_for_summer_associates/)) and the extreme expense of going to some law schools. Imagine you want to go into the music industry. You are probably aware that there is a big pay gap between what an intern makes and what Jennifer Lopez makes. You are probably also aware that your average music industry employee makes a decent but not spectacular living. And no one entices you to spend $100K to major in music before you take that job at Geffen Records as an intern.
I’m not sure that is true in the law. Law students look at the John Edwards, Gerry Spence, etc. and think all lawyers make $250,000+ a year. Not true. But most, I would guess, make between $65,000 and $100,000 per year and live in cities or towns where that is a good, if not spectacular, living.
I think the other disconnect is fostered by law schools and not well examined is the price of your investment in your education and your chance for return on that investment. Now if you want to and have the ability to land that $200,000/yr job in a top tier law firm in NYC, DC or LA – then spending $100K on your education might make sense. But what of the rest of us? If you knew you were going to make $45 to $75K/yr for the next 20 years – would you spend $100+K on your education? You might not. There are very few other professions where you are enticed to plunk down $100K for a chance to get a $45K/yr job. I went to a 3rd tier public law school and have never regretted it and was minimally burdened by my law school loan. This allowed me to have jobs that led me to the success that I have now.
I think we all understand that if we wanted guaranteed return on investment, we would have studies computer science or engineering. That was made clear to me in college. But you can chase a bigger salary in the law, but you should know that most lawyers are not paid that way. Your choice.
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Pomp
Sep 28, 2007 11:15 AM CST
Most of these comments reflect major shortcomings in the writer’s clarity of thought. I sure as hell wouldn’t want most of these people representing me in something important. It’s a sad fact, but some people just aren’t smart enough to make good lawyers, so it’s no wonder that they aren’t offered jobs as lawyers simply by virtue of graduating from law school. hth!
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anonymous
Sep 28, 2007 11:22 AM CST
I think most people are missing the point. A law degree is essentially worthless, and the new lawyers have been conned into paying an outrageous amount of money for it. Other professions, such as M.D.s, also graduate with a lot of debt, but they earn higher starting salaries. The difference? Their professional education is real and worthwhile and they pay their dues during it. Prospective lawyers are fooled into believing that going to law school prepares them to practice law effectively. It doesn’t. That’s why they are commodities upon graduation and worth so little.
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Jackson5
Sep 28, 2007 11:23 AM CST
Why do we have to pay for our legal education? I think Im owed an education. I think society owes me an education. What do you old farts in the profession have to say about that?
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