New Law Grads Urged to Have Backup Plans

doc
Oct 21, 2008 11:46 AM CST

Should have gone to medical school.

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Andre
Oct 21, 2008 5:19 PM CST

I have a paralegal certificate, and after reading this article I’m glad I didn’t go to law school.

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Casey
Oct 22, 2008 8:55 AM CST

Perhaps if law schools were more selective in their admissions process I would not be reading a comment posted by an attorney with multiple spelling and grammatical errors…..just a thought.

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Pierre
Oct 24, 2008 6:24 AM CST

Seeking a govenment job instead of a Big-Law one is not a backup plan, its a career choice.  Contract work, law clerk jobs, and working at Starbucks are backup plans.  Lots of those government jobs can be as competitive as trying to work at Skadden.

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Brad
Oct 24, 2008 6:28 AM CST

Pierre,

Couldnt agree more.  Government, especially fed jobs, are next to impossible to get, even with experience.  No experience, I am sorry, you aint getting the job save for law review top 10, etc.  For lower level government jobs around here, those pretty much required a focus in law school on trial work and crim law to get.  Have a general focus in your JD, good luck getting those too.

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A
Oct 24, 2008 6:45 AM CST

Mark:

Excellent comment! The real issue with lawyer pay is simple economics, the laws of supply and demand apply to all professions. Simply put, there are too many lawyers and not enough clients. That basic economic principle has eroded lawyer pay for the past 30 years. Combine that with the fact that law schools and the ABA actively try to hide and distort the truth about lawyer pay (whichfor most new grads will be in the low 40’s doing tort work) and you have a generation of young lawyers in a crisis of low pay and excessively high student loans.

As Doc remarked, perhaps we should have gone to medical school.

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BC
Oct 24, 2008 6:48 AM CST

I have two comments…

1) Is Ellen a REAL lawyer, or is it a joke someone plays every week on the rest of the readers?  To have that many spelling, gramatical, and flat out illogical comments in a post every week can’t be by a competent attorney.

2) I enjoy how law schools are now telling students to have back up plans.  Does anyone else think this is, oh, I don’t know, a little unethical.  Here are the universities accepting more and more law students each year in addition to raising tuition.  Then when the students who think they bettered themselves by getting a JD at the end of three years are told “Yeah…you may have to look outside of the legal field to get a job.  Good luck.  Thanks for the cash.”  Unbelievable.

I can personally say that the job market is horrible.  Not just for new grads, but for everyone.  I’m finishing up my federal clerkship and looking for a job, and I can’t even get an interview.  Apparently I should start looking elsewhere.  Perhaps I’ll be the beerman at the Steelers home games or a waiter at the local Olive Garden.  How are those for back up plans?  Thanks law school!  I’m glad I paid you all that money to have a back up plan of waiting tables and screaming “Beer Here”.

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Hylas
Oct 24, 2008 6:56 AM CST

Mark, you blame everyone but the most important person responsible for your predicament:  yourself.  Who made you go to law school?  Whose duty is it to guarantee you a job?  Go out and get one like the rest of us have to do.  You miss the point about education.  Its purpose is to educate you, not entitle you to a job.  This is not the first generation to deal with a distressed market.  It sounds like you are saying, the schools and the ABA should collaborate, and limit the number of schools so as to assure that the graduates could find jobs at salaries high enough to satisfy them upon graduation. [the American Medical Association also made exactly this argument about medical schools several years ago.]  Did you happen to take antitrust while you were in school, or is that another thing you would like to blame the ABA, foreigners, or diversity programs for?

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Brian
Oct 24, 2008 7:51 AM CST

I think we’d be fine if the people who have no business being in law school didn’t go (the folks who go because daddy wants them to, or go because they didn’t know what to do after undergrad.)  To others wanting to go, I suggest they work to keep the debt low.  We in Texas have a few schools that do evening P/T programs.  We work all day, and go to class at night.  It takes more like four years, but it helps to keep the debt low.  I feel sorry for people who think that they’re guaranteed a great salary upon passing the bar.

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TDB
Oct 24, 2008 8:29 AM CST

Mark & BC—Completely agree!

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JME
Oct 24, 2008 9:49 AM CST

Oh heck, I just figured I’d do it for the privilege of reading Ellen’s posts.  What’s $100K in debt?  Besides, I’ve got survival skills, so if it trully crashes, and I can’t make it as a lawyer (I own my own firm in a small town, fresh out of school) I can always take my family and live in the mountains, just like Robin Hood, right?

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TomA
Oct 24, 2008 10:20 AM CST

When does a JD behind someone’s name hurt them?  When they’re looking for a “backup plan!”  I get infuriated when people suggest that someone with a law degree could be flipping burgers or waiting tables.  That does nothing to advance your career and impresses on people that you’ve failed as a lawyer, when the truth is most have never been given a real chance.  I went to law school as a 2nd career.  I’ve been practicing for about 2 1/2 years and am now making less than 2/3 what I did before I entered law school, and I am carrying massive debt.  I know from past experience that the first few years of a career it’s “pay your dues,” although I think most of us figured that all the work and expense of law school should factor into that, but I honestly don’t see how I’m going to go from point A to point B (as in a dramatic increase in my pay).  Having a skill that you can (theoretically) charge $100+/hour for sounds great, but as a solo, you’re limited by market constraints and your own time.  Not to mention start up funding during a credit crisis when you already having tons o’ debt.  The bottom line is that if (big IF) I wanted to get a job in IT again, I don’t know if I could because it’s been awhile and the JD would almost be an embarassment because it would be such a waste that people wouldn’t see it as an achievement, but as failing as an attorney.

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Ellen Barshevsky's BOYFRIEND
Oct 24, 2008 10:46 AM CST

Comment removed by moderator.

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Ellen Barshevsky Mother
Oct 24, 2008 11:55 AM CST

Ellen I hope your boyfriend is feeling better.  I am so proud of you!  You are just an amazing lawyer not only do you have time to do all your legal work but time to post all your very valuable comments on this and many other blogs.

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Steve Stoop
Oct 24, 2008 12:08 PM CST

I think this need repeating.

“Thanks, ABA. Your foresight and hard work are greatly appreciated by all recent law grads.  We’re very happy, for instance, that you’ve:

* Helped increase the costs of legal education;
* Failed to require schools to provide a realistic view of the job market for potential students;
* Not warned the ignorant about the importance of the rankings when selecting schools;
* Actively approved numerous unnecessary schools;
* Ignored efforts at requiring adequate practical education;
* Pushed “diversity” at the cost of those who are rejected and those you claim to help; and
* Approved the outsourcing of lower-end, entry-level work to unlicensed foreigners.

I’m looking forward to see what you do with changes to the conflicts rules and other fun topics in the years to come. ”

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GH
Oct 24, 2008 1:00 PM CST

Wow..the ABA is sooo insightful. The warning is way too late. The ABA has always had blinders on when it came to post-law school employment. They do nothing to make their accredited law school report true employment numbers. The ABA is just too busy accrediting a record number of new law schools as money makers for those universities. Long before the economy today, most law grads had to have backup plans for jobs. Truly, how many grads get law jobs versus those who have to take other jobs like document reviewers to barristas? Some law schools, like mine, tout 100% of their law grad as employed within a year after graduation…but not all are practicing law…they take other jobs in retail, as barristas, drive cabs or do document review. I spent a year looking for a job and went back to doing what I did before law school and making what I did before law school but with tons of debt but was able to work myself into in-house no thanks to the ABA, my law school, or the legal community. So thanks ABA for such great and insightful career advice, albeit a little too late.

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Michelle
Oct 24, 2008 1:49 PM CST

The numbers are over inflated, to keep fair market value high; in the business/corporate realm salaries are based on fair market statistics.  The corporate world would start paying less if they thought they could replace a $100K+ In house Attorney for a $40K tier 2 Mediocre Newbie, many corporations wouldn’t be able to tell the difference anyway.  In my own experience working in house, I basically issue spot, keep the CEO/CFO out of jail and refer the hot stuff to outside counsel a.k.a the Big Guns.

In my opinion ABA Honesty would exacerbate our problems by lowering salaries even further. 

Basically, your undergraduate major is more important than you think.  A B.A. in Basket Weaving will get you into some Law Schools, but good luck marketing that.  My friends who have physical science, engineering, or medical type degrees coupled with a J.D. are having absolutely no problems, matter of fact they are being head hunted.  Further, we have done it to ourselves, if no attorney will work for peanuts than they would have to pay more than peanuts, but their is always the desperados with the Basket weaving degrees to drive the prices down.  If you make more with your BA or BS you would go back to that, but for many they can’t make crap with thier BA so they get low balled on thier J.D.  Outside of “Law Firm World” most people and many corporations could care less about what law school you went to, your grades, LSAT score etc, they basically think of you as the annoying doomsday person they need to out manuever to make business deals work, trust me you need to understand thier industry, example basket weaver turned lawyer, is going to fumble giving advice regarding pharmaceutical company compliance, now pharmacy tech turned J.D. better equipped.

Bottom line, anyone whom decided to be an attorney, and didn’t have the personality trait to do their due diligence, shouldn’t be an attorney…..these people keep our malpractice premiums high.

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Hero_of_a_thousand_faces
Oct 24, 2008 2:22 PM CST

I graduated law school at 38 years old a couple of years ago and have very little debt after paying cash for most of the tuition. Though I originally did it to get a second career in law in my former industry, since graduation I’ve found much better paying work where - incredibly - they see the JD as somewhat of an asset (though of course, it’s not a necessity).

I agree with the posters above who said the JD is a final nail in the coffin for most people, though, especially those straight from undergrad.  It only works positively for me because of my prior experience in a completely unrelated field. Those who do not have anything else should NOT go to law school, period.

Oh, BTW,  I’ve also taken three bar exams and failed every one of them. And in case you’re wondering, I got a 3.0 and was never in academic jeopardy. I guess I’m just an idiot that law school moved through the system for the right price.

So I got lucky; my backup plan is now my original plan. Law was an overpriced, near-total waste of three years and over a hundred grand.

Though that’s bad enough, it sickens me to think where I’d be with no bar admission, no alternate career and mountains of debt staring me in the face. Warning to kids:

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Starving Lawyer
Oct 24, 2008 2:49 PM CST

Post No. 7 quoted for friggin’ truth.  I’m a lit attorney with three years of BigLaw experience and numerous successful trials and appeals under my belt.  Several months ago I was offered a position as a State Deputy Attorney General, but told that I had to wait for official placement due to budgetary concerns.  Last week I received a recission letter in the mail, citing those same “concerns.”  Government as a backup, indeed.

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billy bob
Oct 24, 2008 3:23 PM CST

Why do law students somehow see themselves as different from any other major?  This happens all across the board with other degrees as far as I can tell.  I know people who received engineering, teaching and business degrees who never got jobs in their respective areas.  Theoretically attorneys can start their own shop right out of law school, but I can’t see that creating very good attorneys.  I don’t know what I would have done without someone mentoring (a/k/a telling me what to do) my first 2-3 years of practice….probably commit malpractice several times.

I do agree though with all the comments on cost/benefit ratio of law school, and the law schools over-stating first year salaries- mainly by just reporting the mean, rather than median, salaries of 1st year’s.  The law schools are way too expensive ($1,000 a credit hour- are you serious), but their classes are full!  So how does the ABA tell schools that meet the criteria- you can’t have an accredited law school, how do these schools tell students with grades and LSATs- you can’t come here, how do state bars tell qualified applicants -you can’t practice in this state?  The answer simply can’t be there are too many lawyers already!  They build them and they keep coming!  For whatever reason the market supply and demand continually stay out of whack as to attorneys, which seems to suggest an information gap or an overestimation by law students of their ability to overcome the forces of averages in school and in getting a job.  There’s always the peace corps-! but seriously it is shame for someone to slap down $100k to end up with squat, but price is obviously not a deterrent to the hopefuls.

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JRA
Oct 24, 2008 5:58 PM CST

After reading these coments I must admit I was quite surprised by the number of comments from people regretting their decision to go to law school and then subsequently blaming the schools or the ABA or some esoteric other force which somehow forced them into their decision to enter this profession.  The real lesson that should be learned from this is, if you are planning on attending a graduate school, any graduate school solely because you think it will land you a good job making lots of money and not because you truly want to practice in that profession then you are making a huge mistake.  Prior to Law School I was an accountant, I had a good job and made decent money but was miserable, and I worked with other accounting majors who were also miserable.  The point is neither they nor myself ever wanted to be accountants but we majored in it because we thought it would land us a job.  And it did but the work was miserable.  The happy accountants were the ones who wanted to be accountants.  After passing the bar and struggling through nearly six months of unemployment I was fortunate to land a job after law school working as a Prosecutor, which is exactly why I went to law school in the first place.  While I’m not raking in the dough, I’m extremely happy with my work.  My point is get a degree because you want to excel in a field you like, not because someone tells you “you’ll get a great job” or “you’ll make a ton of money.”  Because more than likely even if you are one of those lucky few who land that “big job” and you only got into it for the money you’re probably going to hate it anyway and all the money won’t make up for hating a place you spend most of your waking hours in.  Do what you love not what you think will get you paid.

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Anonymous Coward
Oct 24, 2008 6:41 PM CST

Mark, right on.  Hylas, I’m sorry but you have no clue.

Sure, nobody owes me a job.  But if I work hard, do well in law school, and pass the bar, then yes, somebody bloody well owes me a job.

The only reason I went to law school was because all the engineering jobs are being outsourced.  Now guess what, all the legal jobs are being outsourced.  Thanks ABA for allowing me to charge monopoly prices, not.  Thanks law school, for taking my money then telling me to ask myself do I really want to practice law.

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r
Oct 24, 2008 9:15 PM CST

These people get no sympathy from me!!  I guess they watched Boston Legal too much and thought it would be easy-going. I taught law school for 5 years and saw the sickening, arrogant, haughty, expectant look on their faces as they talked on their cell phones during class.  I hear they’re hiring greeters at Wal-Mart.  But people with smirks on their faces need not apply!  Too bad suckers.  My first job as a lawyer in 1976 paid $10,500—-per year!  If Wal-Mart won’t hire you, try Big Lots or the Dollar Store!!  You have gotten what you deserve.  Now maybe you’ll learn a little humility.

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Hates law
Oct 25, 2008 10:29 AM CST

I got a full tuition scholarship to Washington and Lee and graduated in 2007 with no idea what lawyers do.  I passed the Bar the first time but I couldn’t get a job so I’m back in school (undergrad) to complete the pre-reqs for medical school (which most lawyers aren’t bright enough to go to). 

What a terrible, terrible choice it was to go to law school.  I gained all the “skills” law school teaches in the first semester, the rest was a waste.  Also, since “elite” schools pride themselves on not teaching anything practical, I had to take BarBri to learn the law that was tested on the Bar. 

I wish someone could have told me that the practice of law is actually easy (except maybe litigation, which requires good acting).  My wife is a third year resident neurologist and she had to take different exams that actually provide a score so resident programs can objectively compare job applicants.  What an amazing concept!  An objective test with a real score and everything!  I wish someone could have told me that the difficult part of becoming a lawyer is finding someone or some firm willing to teach you what lawyers do.

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Bridges01
Oct 25, 2008 2:58 PM CST

At least once a day a parent says to me I would sue the school district because of their failure to provide an education for my child with autism. One parent told me her child’s doctor said he would testify because the infection caused by the school’s failure to change her daughter’s diapers was so bad he was required to report the case for child abuse. The result of all these complaint’s was no legal action attempted. All the parent’s decided that they could not afford to take legal action. Parents of children in the autistic spectrum are estimated to spend millions of dollars to educate and raising them. Perhaps if the same parents had reason to believe the legal profession could assist in making their children’s lives better, there would be more work for the legal profession. Certainly the school districts and private schools have easy access to legal representation.

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