Law Schools
T-Shirts, ‘Don’t Panic’ Pencils Help Whittier Grads Earn 84.3 Bar Pass Rate
Posted Dec 24, 2008 1:03 PM CST
By Martha Neil
It's easy to pick out some of the Whittier Law School graduates taking the California bar exam.
They're the ones wearing t-shirts that say "Do it once. Do it right. Never do it again," reports the Orange County Register.
The t-shirts, which are being worn even by some faculty members, are part of a school-wide drive that has helped raise the bar passage rate among new Whittier grads to 84.3 percent.
"The school even hands out pencils that say 'Don't panic' to students getting ready for the fearsome three-day test to become licensed to practice law in California," the newspaper recounts.
It is, of course, considered one of the toughest bar exams in the country.
"I used to hear students say, "The first time is just for practice,' " Whittier Dean Neil Cogan. "That kind of attitude was very discouraging."
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Comments
iamjoecollector
Dec 26, 2008 6:16 PM CST
Is the California Bar Exam considered one of the toughest because of the low passage rate. If so, it isn’t tough, it is probably because unqualified CBA applicants with 140 LSATS are taking the exam.
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dude
Dec 26, 2008 10:00 PM CST
Dude- your LSAT score has nothing to do with passing the bar. It’s all about studying properly for the bar. If you are not in a bar review course, expect to to fail. If you are not studying 10-12 hours per day, expect to fail. I don’t care if your LSAT is a 170, if you are not studying, expect to fail! It is an achievement test- not an aptitude test.
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iamjoecollector
Dec 27, 2008 5:45 PM CST
I didn’t take your precious bar review course and passed. I didn’t study 10-12 hours a day and passed.
Listen up Dude, if you get a 140 Lsat, you should expect to fail. That and you have no business being in law school. Additionally, a person with a 170 Lsat is more likely to pass the bar exam than someone that got 140 and went to a CBA school is.
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Joey
Dec 28, 2008 3:09 AM CST
I studied for 1-3 hours a night starting in may. That was all I really had time to do working full time. My government job gave me 3 weeks paid time off to take the bar (2 to study 1 to take it) and I studied about 6 to 8 hours a day for two weeks. Passed the first time with no bar review course, although I did spring for the bar review books used on eBay.
Point being it’s all about the type of studier you are. I attended a top law school and was very surprised to see that some of the smartest kids in my class failed the bar.
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dude
Dec 28, 2008 10:47 AM CST
No Joe- you listen up! Passing the bar is all about studying. I did not literally mean10-12 hrs a day. The point of my entire post was if you are not studying like you should be, you should expect to fail. Joey says he studied 6-8 hours a day for two weeks. That’s what he needed to do and he passed. Personally I didn’t study 10-12 hours a day. But I did study 7-8 and I didn’t work during bar study. Why? Because that’s what I needed to do to pass. The bar exam is highly individualized. What works for me may/may not work for you and vice versa.
Just because test taker A has a 170 LSAT and test taker B has a 140 LSAT doesn’t mean that A is more likely to pass the bar. Let’s say you have someone that is 7’ tall and someone that is 6’ tall. the 7 footer may need 6 natural steps to walk 20 feet. The 6 footer may need 12 natural steps. That’s life. The question is are you going to make the 6 steps you need to travel 20 feet; are you going to make the 12 steps you need to travel 20 feet. The same concept applies to preparing for the the bar exam. Are you going to do what you need to do to pass.
I also would like to know who died and made you God? Who are you to say who doesn’t belong? Some of the “smartest” kids in my law school failed the bar, too. Law school is for those who want it- the pressure, competition, student loans, etc. My money says that some 140 LSAT lawyer kicks your butt in court.
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Allen Sheketovits
Dec 29, 2008 10:23 AM CST
Well, this is interesting. I did poorly on the SAT, but passed the bar exam even though I was too busy with a female law student all of the summer to study. Go figure! It goes to show you that you will do well when the juices are flowing.
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J.D.
Dec 29, 2008 1:24 PM CST
Perhaps the t-shirts included the Bar/Bri property outline in really small print? I heard the pencils had the UCC written out on them.
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Cali lawyer
Dec 30, 2008 10:41 AM CST
Wow, I thought the people with the silly shirts had a higher fail rate than the overall rate.
To correct the article, the CA bar exam is the toughest in the country and New York is a close second. The folks getting ready to sit for the bar in other states can argue amongst themselves about which exam is third.
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iamjoecollector
Dec 30, 2008 10:28 PM CST
Dude, 140 LSAT people do not make it into law school in Oregon. Sorry, but you sound like you have a monster chip on your shoulder. Seems I touched a nerve.
It seems that with your skills at analysis, you may have been a 140 LSAT kid. Find a chart, anywhere… oh wait, I did the research for you.
Both law school grade-point average (LGPA) and Law School Admission Test (LSAT) score were the strongest predictors of bar examination passage for all groups studied.
found at:
http://academic.udayton.edu/thewhitestlawschools/2005twls/chapter2/Legaled04.htm
and
see the charts at:
http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2006/09/last_month_i_bl.html
OWNED
Now dude, get into your kennel, you just lost.
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guy
Dec 31, 2008 11:52 AM CST
I got a 172 on the LSAT, did well at a top 20 law school, took a bar review course, studied 6 days a week, and still failed!
I’m a fairly smart guy, and I have a good work ethic, so I wondered why someone like me would fail.
I think it’s because of what the bar exam tests. It doesn’t test your ability to think. It tests your ability to memorize.
I personally think this is ridiculous. What do lawyers do? We analyze, we think, we communicate. We do very little memorization. Sure, we have to know a basic amount of law, but if we don’t know it then we look it up! In fact, didn’t we all take courses on how to research?
Surely the various state bars can come up with a better method of vetting budding attorneys than testing their ability to memorize vast amounts of law they will never use!
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iamjoecollector
Dec 31, 2008 2:36 PM CST
Guy
You are certainly the exception. Personally, I think the Bar Exam should be nothing but those MPT type questions. Each question should be 1-2 hours. The problem with that is that it may require much more in depth grading.
The essay questions are a joke, three or so of the questions when I took had parts that made little if any sense. Maybe they were testing those parts for continued us, but no one that I talked ot afterward seemed to have any idea what the heck the answer is.
My original point in this thread is that individuals with higher LSAT score pass the Bar exam at higher rates. It is not a question of probability, it is a question of ability. The links I cited above support that.
It is true that someone that got a 140 LSAT has the same “chance” or probablity to pass the Bar exam, but quite often they do not. The California Bar exam, I suspect, has a higher number of test takers with poor LSAT scores that fail at a higher rate. If the California Bar Exam is considered tougher because of that low passage rate, then the conclusion is flawed.
In order to be viable statistical analysis, the California Bar Exam passage rate must be compared at similar LSAT scores. LSAT scores are the only constant. Law School GPA and undergrad GPA are not as reliable because of the grade inflation/deflation that occurs at some schools but not others.
Thus, to determine the “toughest” bar exam, California should compare their passage rates of different LSAT scores to those of other states. It follows that if Washington has a 54% passage rate at 155 and California has a passage rate of 56% at 155, then Washington is tougher. The data would have to be adjusted for percentile rank as well. When I took the LSAT a 155 (yes I was higher than 155) was a higher percentile rank than those that took the exam in 2000 and got a 155.
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dude
Jan 1, 2009 12:29 AM CST
Comment removed by moderator.
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dude
Jan 1, 2009 8:39 PM CST
Joe-
It is not a question of ability…it is a question of studying properly.
Your links support your assertions? One study that you cite is from “The Whitest Law Schools.” The study can’t be credible but it does show your true colors.
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dude
Jan 2, 2009 11:57 AM CST
Guy,
I agree with 95% of your post. While I admit that there is a lot of memorization, I disagree that it tests just the ability to memorize. The MBE is where most people fail/pass the bar. Yes, you memorize a ton of info but can you take that info, process it, recognize subtle differences in the question, and give the correct answer? That’s where I feel the MBE tests your ability to reason. The test taker only has 1.8 minutes per question. You must reason correctly and quickly to be successful.
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iamjoecollector
Jan 2, 2009 2:52 PM CST
Dude,
It is a question of ability. That is why, statistics show, those with higher LSAT scores pass the bar at a higher rate. Have you convinced yourself that low LSAT scores and standardized tests do not reflect ability? I had a friend that used to tell me that the reason why I blew him out of the water on the SAT was that he isn’t a good test taker. So when I did better than him on that, passed my AP test, graduated from college with 2 1/2 years years of course work, nothing rang less true than his assertion.
I chose the links that showed up at the top of the Yahoo search.
Dude, you are wrong, you know it, I know it. You cannot cite anything that supports your assertion. I can. The first link was from the University of Dayton. I’m not sure what you mean by a study from “The Whitest Law Schools”. I am sorry you are defeated, that you have a chip on your shoulder, that you don’t have any facts or studies or anything that supports your position, but it doesn’t change the facts. If you need more info:
Here is the link from the LSAC site:
http://www.lsacnet.org/Research/LSAC-National-Longituinal-Bar-Passage-Study-ES.htm
Can you direct me to any information that shows that there is little if any correllation between LSAT score and bar passage rate? You can’t. Readers can look at the data and decide for themselves. You lost, goodbye.
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dude
Jan 4, 2009 3:14 PM CST
There you go with your stats. You have a 170 LSAT? Have you ever considered that the reason that there are no studies to support my assertions is b/c no studies have been conducted?
And you make all these false assumptions. Where so you get I have a chip on my shoulder? I graduated and passed the bar THE FIRST TIME.
For someone with a supposed 170 LSAT, seems you have a problem with analysis.
Look at the link in post #8. In the link line, it clearly says Dayton Univ. but it goes on to say “The Whitest Law Schools.” I doubt the Univ. of Dayton would have a link to such a site.
Anyone with any amount of intelligence can make a study say what they want it to say.
I will state this one final time: Bar passage is contingent upon your willingness to study. Bar passage is highly individualized. If you need 3/day, put in 3 hrs. If you need 10hrs/day, put in 10. Get in PMBR and Bar Bri or some review course. If you take the review courses and out in the time, you have a high chance of being successful.
You know it amazes me how so many people didn’t take a review course and only studied “30 minutes a day for 3 days before the bar” and still passed. I think its hog wash. Yes sir, Yes ma’am- there are some people who are just smart enough to pass the bar w/o studying. But the fact of the matter is, the majority of test takers are not. I don’t care what your LSAT score is. I don’t care if you come from at Tier 1 or Tier 4 law school. I don’t care what your GPA is. Take a bar review course and put in the time to study.
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iamjoecollector
Jan 4, 2009 7:29 PM CST
Yes, there I go with my statistics and studies while you want to disregard the study located at: http://www.lsacnet.org/Research/LSAC-National-Longituinal-Bar-Passage-Study-ES.htm
You realize that is the LSAC study right. Can you read? What does it say? It says: Both law school grade-point average (LGPA) and Law School Admission Test (LSAT) score were the strongest predictors of bar examination passage for all groups studied.
Really dude, Really? What part of that is so hard to understand? Tell me. I am waiting.
My original assertion was: it is probably because unqualified CBA applicants with 140 LSATS are taking the exam.
You then stated that LSAT score doesn’t have anything to do with it. Really?
Then I cite the studies including the one above on the LSAC site. Then you continue to argue? Really?
You sound like a bad prosecutor or defense attorney.
By the way, no where, absolutely no where did I say I got a 170 LSAT. I used an example of a 170 LSAT versus a 140 LSAT.
Really? What are you still trying to argue? That a study should be done that shows that studying affects your likelihood to pass? Duh.
The fact remains, if you have 10 people that got a 170 on an LSAT, and 10 people that got a 140 LSAT. The 170 group will pass at a much higher rate. What is so hard to understand about that?
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dude
Jan 5, 2009 9:10 AM CST
Here’s what my assertions are based on- and I am going to leave this discussion alone.
First, let me define scholarship recipient (SR). Law schools across the country have different names but here’swhat an SR is: the admissions office looks at your LSAT score and GPA and says hey, this person is most likely to well in school and pass the bar. Plus, someone with this LSAT and GPA will make our school look good and raise on the tier level or keep us on the tier level. Let’s pay for this person’s legal education.
Now that we know an SR, let’s talk about my experience. You can cite all the studies in the world that you want to BUT when I looked at my bar results and looked at the bar results of my classmates and I looked at other states where my classmates took the bar, guess what? Just as many SRs failed as non- SRs failed. People in the top of the class failed just like the people in the bottom of the class failed. AND it was in the same numbers! the same numbers!
That’s why I am convinced that passing the bar has nothing to with your LSAT score. It’s all about doing what you need to do to pass. If you need a review course, get the review course. If you need to spend 3 min/day, 30min/day, 3 hrs/day- put your time in. Passing the bar in your respective state is highly individualized. Those that so what they need to do will pass. Those that don’t- won’t! Your LSAT has nothing to do with it. I say that based n the results I have seen in my law school AND talking with students at other law schools.
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Jose
Jan 5, 2009 1:01 PM CST
They still wont get to work for a big new york firm.
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