North Carolina Central Tops List of Best Value Law Schools

Cynic
Aug 25, 2009 11:57 AM CST

True enough, Rath, but at the same time, one year of tuition at North Carolina Central would barely cover the tuition cost of one course at a private law school in the northeast, Chicago, or California, and many of those grads are unenmployed as well.  Better to be unemployed with $18,000 of debt than with $200,000 of debt.

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Joanie
Aug 25, 2009 12:22 PM CST

I bet Wal-Mart opens a law school.  Yep, roll back those prices.

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Rath
Aug 25, 2009 1:34 PM CST

#5 Meaning that 25% are presumed employed without justification for such presumption.  Further, those who are unemployed and not seeking jobs are excluded from the calculations and the figures are taken 9 months out from graduation.  On top of that of course is the fact that one has to rely on the accuracy of the information provided by the law schools which is highly suspect and largely perceived by many as skewed and inaccurate.

Law schools don’t have to go on-site to do some independent fact checking and to suggest that as the only means is disingenuous BS.

Of course, none of that addresses how law schools skew the figures for what counts as being employed, or the fact that they don’t release statistics on the nature of the employment, much of which is often temporary, not work as an attorney, or both.

Nothing you stated refutes anything I asserted about the reliability of employment statistics drawn from self reporting by law schools.  You can play apologist and defender of law school administrators and the ABA all you want but don’t kid yourself.  Your dealing with an informed audience here, not the ignorant masses upon whom law school administrators shovel this offal.

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AndytheLawyer
Aug 25, 2009 2:42 PM CST

The ABA is wrong.  The best value for law school tuition today is the new one at the University of California at Irvine.  Tuition for the entering first-ever class is $0. 

Of course, the place isn’t accredited.  Yet.

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anonymous
Aug 25, 2009 3:45 PM CST

The 9 month after graduation stat should be scrapped.  A lot of the 2nd tier nyc schools shove unemployed graduates into temp jobs and then claim they are employed in perm positions.  It’s time to end this loophole.

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James
Aug 25, 2009 7:19 PM CST

#9 Time,

The ranking are SUPPOSED to hurt schools where a large number of students don’t go to big law.  Given the debt load and the big law initial salaries most students WANT to go to biglaw for a time if for no other reason than to make money until they find something better.  A school that doesn’t send students to biglaw isn’t doing so because of some inherent nobility in the student body there.  Rather it’s because biglaw doesn’t want to come interview students at what is probably considered a trash school.

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Time
Aug 26, 2009 7:43 AM CST

#13.  Like hell. 

If you want to practice private criminal defense law, you go to a small firm; if you want to practice private family law or immigration law, you go to a small firm.  There are so many other practice areas out there that are only serviced by small to midsize firms.  I’m not even talking about people who want to practice in government and public interest law.

Moreover, If a person wants to practice in Montana, exactly how many BigLaw firms are there out there?

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tim
Aug 26, 2009 2:44 PM CST

Not sure why you all are so bitter at the law schools.  The law schools job is to get you a degree so that you can sit for the bar.  The law school has no duty to find you a job.  You knew how much law school was when you signed up.

If you can’t find a job, blame yourself.

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Dsmythelaw
Aug 28, 2009 7:04 AM CST

I agree that there are problems with some of the stats on employment, and I’m especially worried about them making Tier 3 & 4 schools out to be so great when considering the real and sometimes harsh affect Tier rankings actually do have on many (but not all) areas of law. Great they are employed, but where and for how much are issues of concern.

For those wanting to scrap the 9 month reporting, I agree there are problems but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Many sectors in law that people DO want to go in and are permanent do not hire until after graduation, yet they are certainly deserving of being reported! Sure, that is not frequently the case with BigLaw, but *news flash* BigLaw isn’t all law. In Georgia, for instance, it is common practice for state solicitor and district attorney’s offices to delay hiring until even October AFTER the Bar (they want to make sure their potential hires have passed). The public interest sector often hires on an as needed basis. Focusing only on the graduation hiring gives unfairly low employment stats to many law schools.

I do question the need for so many law schools and continued growth. I think it was New York that was planning 3 new law schools! Really now, I think we have plenty for now.

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AndytheLawyer
Aug 28, 2009 7:44 AM CST

Answering #11—Probably not.  Virtually all of U.C. Irvine’s faculty is reputable scholars poached from reuptable law schools.  But to its credit, its course and curriculum models are practice-oriented, not legal-scholarship oriented.

Answering #19—Your first-ever, fresh out of law school job was General Counsel?  Of what?  A fraternity brother’s start-up?  The local bait and tackle shop?

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bruinjack
Aug 28, 2009 8:32 AM CST

Go Cougars!!!

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Jayhawk
Aug 28, 2009 9:07 AM CST

I wonder what they are using as the best value here?  Is it only the cheapest?  Or does value mean the best school for the least amount?  I am not sure how they define it but the way I look at it I would say the Brigham Young would have to top this list.  Low cost, high employment and passage rates, together with a Tier 1 ranking and a private school.  I don’t see a better value than that.

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CWFleming
Aug 28, 2009 9:17 AM CST

So glad to see that NCCU is finally getting some good press and respect at the national level.  Many of us have come through that program and have done well both in big/national law firms and as in-house counsel.  In addition to NCCU being a good option for those who need to be a little more frugal, the staff, students, and alumni are good people.

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nmatty
Aug 28, 2009 9:39 AM CST

Correction—I meant above that NCCU is tier 4 school, not tier 1.

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ccbl
Aug 28, 2009 10:22 AM CST

I have to agree with newt1989 above that while less expensive schools may have very high bar passage rates and high employment rates, law can still be an incredibly parochial profession with costly barriers in relocation.  Since he appears content in Mississippi, great.  If he wanted to relocate, the cheaper tuition might not offset the lost opportunity costs.  Studying near where you plan to practice can be invaluable for networking during law school and developing alumni connections.

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SmalLaw
Aug 28, 2009 11:34 AM CST

First, any school that has a bar passage rate of less than 90% should be dropped off the list.  It doesn’t matter how cheap a school is if it can’t get the first, most basic job done, i.e., making lawyers. 

Second, the employment statistics are meaningless without average salary info - which is in and of itself of little use without cost of living info.  For example, comparing, say Alabama’s or UNC’s starting salary info with NYU’s figures would almost certainly be in favor of NYU grads.  But then you have to figure in the fact that the average cost of living in Alabama or North Carolina is much lower, and things start to even out.  Add in low tuition and a high bar passage rate and yes, both schools are a good value. 

BUT, if a similar comparison was done between, say, UNC and NCCU grads, UNC would almost certainly come out as the better value, despite the higher price tag. Even ignoring NNCU’s low bar passage rate,  UNC law grads have more opportunities and make a lot more in the same market than NNCU grads do.  And this situation is where the tier thing DOES become important.  Are there exceptions?  Sure.  But, by and large, those NCCU grads are still going to be paying tens of thousands off in loans

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curmudgeon
Aug 28, 2009 11:56 AM CST

Doesn’t all these comments miss the point? Regardless of the school’s rank, your class standing, or the “quality” of the school you attended, the client wants to know if you can get the job done for him, her or it.  In 39 years of practice, no one has asked me my gradesw, or the ranking of my law school.

Is this indicative of the concerns of students coming out of Law School today? We were taught that success was measured by the good you could do for your client or help your client do for others.  Is something very much out of whack?

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Mark Chilton
Aug 28, 2009 1:46 PM CST

It is comical (and sad) how many of you can only see things in terms of your income.  NCCU’s stated mission (to train lawyers for public service and to represent under-represented, rural, inner-city and minority communities) does not lead to high income jobs.  So what?

Bar passage rate is another seductive but misleading statistic.  To what extent does bar passage rate reflect on the quality of the students vs. the quality of the teaching?  You can’t be sure, can you?

NCCU has one of three historically-black law schools left in America (I think).  That the school is thriving and keeping its focus on its mission (rather than trying to satisfy the editors of US News & World Reports) is wonderful and amazing.

Go Legal Eagles!

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Virgil
Aug 28, 2009 2:14 PM CST

I am an NCCU law grad.  I had a job within weeks of passing the bar.  I am presently a trial attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice.  I have tried cases against attorney’s from the so called top tiered law schools and have done very well.  NCCU was and is a great bargain.  They have a very supportive staff and they care about their students.  Those of you who look down your noses at their graduates, may want to take a second look. Ever heard of Willie Gary?

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CBR
Aug 28, 2009 2:54 PM CST

It should be noted that NCCU is the only ABA-accredited law school in its region to offer a four-year, part-time track. The selective program has provided a number of mid-career law students, including Ph.Ds, M.Ds, nurses, MBAs, business executives and government administrators, journalists, teachers, accountants, scientists, and engineers in the state’s Research Triangle, the opportunity to bring their experience and expertise to the practice of law, or, in some cases, fine legal training back to their employers.

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Laurie
Aug 29, 2009 10:01 AM CST

The problem with almost everything that I read here is an almost total acceptance of the legal education system in the United States.  Education at any level should not be a business.  Because higher education in this country is conducted as a profit-center, of course the statistics are skewed.  They are skewed to sell a product – an expensive product with no guarantee of functionality (read: job) once you get it home (read: graduate and pass the Bar). Education, however, is neither a television nor a laptop.  In the event of non-functionality, those commodities can be returned to the place of purchase for a refund.  Not so, professional education, and the bankruptcy laws in this country prohibit the discharge of student debt in bankruptcy.  So, once sold, the product is yours; the profit is the schools’ and if the product doesn’t function as represented – caveat emptor.  This is only the tip of a very deep iceberg, and the issues are many.  However, that no one here takes issue with the core issue astonishes me.

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NCCU Grad
Aug 29, 2009 3:39 PM CST

As an NCCU graduate, I think there are some intangibles at the school that do not show up here in the ranking.  While the tuition is indeed cheap, the administration at the school (at least when I attended) were the weak link. 

Problems with inconsistent grading, lack of job placement at graduation, dispensing of student loan checks weeks after classes start (try to buy books), and totally incompetent people in charge of important things like helping students sign up for classes were common. 

In addition, the school still has a long way to go in mending fences with alumni.  The new dean Raymond Pierce has fixed some of that and the new building there is an improvement, but in speaking with other grads at UNC, Wake Forest, or other schools, they do not indicate that they had to deal with the repeated BS that seemed to be rampant at NCCU. 

In terms of jobs (that 87% employment rate is not accurate), the alumni network is not there at NCCU that is present at other schools because complaints by students at the school were dealt with harshly, leaving many alumni desiring not to be associated with the school after graduation.  If you had a problem at the school, good luck because you were on your own.

There are some great professors at the school who are indeed the best at any school and indeed some great lawyers produced from the school.  My only hope is that the administration someday can boast that the vast majority of the NCCU students who graduate will feel that the school was a partner with them through the process, not a hindrance.

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B. McLeod
Aug 30, 2009 1:40 AM CST

Verily, Sarah.  To have what you have, free and clear, is a great thing.  A cottage with a well-stocked pantry is better tha a hungry castle.

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Harold Barnes
Aug 30, 2009 9:45 PM CST

I am an NCCU Grad and one of 17 children.  NCCU was a life saver for me.  I have litigated cases in 10 states and won against the Regents of the University of California and many other large defendants.  I finished NCCU without debt and was offered a job as a college professor prior to graduation. My 7 children have a better life because NCCU was there.  You may call NCCU a tier 4 school.  I was able to make tier one money as a result of my training there. Go legal eagles.

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To 26
Aug 31, 2009 6:26 PM CST

As an alumnus of NCCU School of Law, I am here to say, Hogwash!  One has to look beyond the mere placement stats to where exactly the graduates are working.  Most are performing document review at one of two big doc review outfits for $17- $20 per hour, no OT, no prospect for upward mobility.  # 26, you are not telling the truth straight through your teeth(lying).  When searching through the Alumni info at the office of career services, no where will you find info linking one to graduates practicing in those types of practices.  Most NCCU graduates work either at the local legal aidoffice, or at the local P.D.‘s or D.A.‘s office.  The rest hang their own shingle while scrapping for the same $ that those graduates who graduate years before them are still seeking.  Not to mention, the tuituion may be $5,700,  but the total cost to the student is about $18,500 per year, the max offered under the federal student loan program.  After tuition and loan orig fees, one would have about $12,000 to live or starve off for the entire year for food and lliving expenses. So,  the average student grauates with a student loan debt of about $60,000 for the entire 3 year period, all for the pleasure of attending a 4th teir school.  Enroll @ NCCU School of Law if you are looking for a life full of regret and despair.

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