Many Attorneys Struggle Financially, as Paychecks Fatten for a Few

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Lawyer Pay

Many Attorneys Struggle Financially, as Paychecks Fatten for a Few

Posted Apr 8, 2008, 02:23 pm CDT
By Martha Neil

Jeanne Wrenn loves her job as an assistant Cook County prosecutor in Chicago. But she isn't as thrilled about her $59,000 salary.

A single mother seven years out of law school, which she borrowed $100,000 to attend, the 36-year-old Wrenn has a part-time job as a bartender to help make ends meet, reports the Chicago Tribune.

"Most Fridays, after a long week at the county prosecutor's office, she's behind the bar at Lizzie McNeill's Irish Pub downtown. Clad in a black polo shirt and dark jeans, her hair pulled back in a ponytail, she pours a mean Guinness, handling the pints with the same dexterity she uses to juggle folders and legal pads during her day job," the newspaper writes.

While Wrenn earns more than most teachers, and the average pay for a lawyer nationally is $113,600 annually—almost triple the $39,190 average pay for all Americans—she, like many other attorneys, has to wonder sometimes what her life would have been like had she managed to score one of the profession's top salaries. The Trib notes, for instance, that a Boston lawyer, Kirsten Wolf, became an Internet celebrity earlier this year, after she pointed out that she had received little economic benefit from her law school education. (Her situation is discussed in an earlier ABAJournal.com post.)

As the salary gap between the bottom three-quarters and the top 25 percent of Chicago lawyers has widened in recent decades, the highest-paid associates at major firms are starting fresh out of law school at salaries of $160,000 plus an annual bonus and some equity partners earn seven figures. "A recent University of Chicago study found that at the top 50 U.S. law firms, profits per partner have soared by a factor of four, from $310,000 in 1983 to $1.26 million as of 2004. That far exceeds wage growth in the economy at large," the Tribune writes.

However, even lawyers in the upper echelons of the profession complain that they make less and lack the social status of those at the top of their game in other fields, as another ABAJournal.com post discusses.

And, increasingly, in the law as in other fields, attorneys must choose between working harder for less money, at a job that perhaps isn't what they anticipated or would have wished to pursue when they opted to attend law school, or finding a way to cut costs in order to put a priority on the quality of their lives.

This situation has created tension between the haves and have-nots of the legal profession. And that tension will only worsen, predicts Harvard Law School academic John Coates, as regulation of law schools and legal practice eventually eases, allowing more attorneys to practice and non-attorney ownership of law firms.

Thus, at least potentially, there could be a further reduction in the compensation that lawyers can expect to earn for their work, he says, as the profession is separated into three compensation categories. They will be, as the article describes them: "The super-highly-paid, a middle tier of the highly paid and, by far the biggest group, everybody else."

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Posted by Wolfgang - 2 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 26 minutes ago

Welcome to the real world. Those at the top of the legal profession have always made the big money - nothing new. And it is also nothing new that if you graduate from one of the dozen or so “elite” law schools your “ticket” is automatically punched - you have to really screw up not to get into the top ranks. Nonetheless, more and more students want a law degree, thinking they’ll buck the odds and make the big money. The law schools will do nothing to discourage this because they are in the business to turn out law graduates. The “White Shoe” law firm crowd is hardly going to shed a tear over this since their disdain for the other four-fifths of the profession is open and obvious. So, what is the solution? At a time when there are thousands too many law graduates - and only a finite amount of business out there - a great many are going to have to learn the hard way - you aren’t going to be the exception. Moral to the story: don’t go to law school. Do something you enjoy doing - in the long run, you’ll make just as much money, you won’t get an ulcer, you may even be free from having to deal with pompous, egomaniacal assholes on a day-to-day basis.

And, for the record, anyone employed at the Cook County state’s Attorney’s office is hardly a candidate for sympathy. Those who get those jobs do so on the basis of political and familial connections, not law school records. All you have to do is look at all of the sons and daughters, nieces and nephews of sitting and retired judges, county politicians, and large political contributors who get hired year after year - and everyone else is given the middle finger. Count your blessings young lady - if you keep your nose clean you’ll get an associate judgeship in a couple of years - just ring enough doorbells and make the required contributions.
Posted by EEO-Chi - 2 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 19 hours, 25 minutes ago

Wolfgang’s comment is essentially correct, but he leaves out one essential point: you used to be able to go to non-elite law schools, get a job making non-elite pay, and keep your lights on. With tuition at these “lower-tiered” schools reaching $30-$40k a year, however, new lawyers can’t even provide for themselves - let alone their families - on $40, $50 or $60k a year.

Think of it this way: a student who graduates with $100k in debt (which is generous these days) can cut $15k off the top of whatever his salary is, because that money is going to his loans. So that $59k is a lot closer to the national salary average than it initially looks.
Posted by Bill Dickey - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago

I can’t shed a tear for this single mother/legal barfly, or for that matter any lawyer. We didn’t get forced into becoming lawyers --no waterboarding went on in my family or in lawschool. More importantly, no one ever promised me the big bucks if I became a lawyer, and I never made them. But I’m hardly starving, either. I suppose I could have done something else, but there were no guarantees I would have done any better. Who knows, I would likely have done WORSE. Therefore I wouldn’t shed a tear for anyone in “the profession” who has to work nites in the bar. This woman might meet her meal ticket in the bar and that would be goodness, wouldn’t it! In sum, We didn’t have to become lawyers, We chose to. As such, we must live with the ramifications of our choices. (I sound like a philosopher--ibut would not want to pay the rent with that jobt), but we’re all adults, so we should all be able to know what we got into.
Posted by AKC - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes ago

A law degree is still a ticket in many closely related professions, such as insurance and financial services. Making it in the traditional legal profession is not the only option. It has opened many doors for me. I would tell these young grads to look around at nontraditional options. If they’re willing to work hard, they can do well.
Posted by Rich Meyer - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 1 hour, 48 minutes ago

This is what I tell college students who ask me if they should apply to law school: There are easier ways to make money than by practicing law; The best reason for going to law school is that you want to be a lawyer. Period. Few professions are as challenging or interesting. But it isn’t an automatic ticket to a fat bank account.
Posted by Guerline - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 52 minutes ago

I am truly getting fed up with the ABA telling us how much it sucks to be a lawyer, that there are too many lawyers, blah, blah, blah… That we are not making enough money, that the profession is not prestigious etc…
What is the point? How is that helpful to me, already a lawyer to know that I have
$100 000.00 in student loans, that I will have difficulty to pay, that I am not making the big bucks. I already know all that. Why does not the ABA print those articles for people who need them (people who aspire to be lawyers, not lawyers), and bring me articles that can help me reach specific career goals. Stop beating a dead horse, bury it and move on.
Posted by B C - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 51 minutes ago

$59,000 a year as a county prosecutor is more money than most people make in my mid-sized city. We have some of the top law firms here, and the salaries for the 15 mega firms we have average about $130,000. Here, though, there is no mid market. You either make the big bucks, or you are making $45,000 a year or less working the same amount of hours as your colleagues at a big firm.

I, for one, became a lawyer because I wanted the challenge and the excitement of practicing law. Not for the money as so many young attorneys do. I would be fine making the lower salary IF I were also able to pay my bills. But with student loan debt in excess of $120,000 (as most people who graduated from my school have) those low salaries are making it difficult to survive. I had a friend who recently, not only had to take a second job working on the weekends and nights at the local law school library, but also had to move back in with his parents because he couldn’t afford rent & living expenses + loan costs on his mediocre $43,000 a year salary. Firms need to realize that young associates need to be able to survive, not just scrape by and struggle pay check to pay check. This is true especially for the amount of hours that we are expected to work.
Posted by Steve - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 41 minutes ago

I am currently a third year law student. I will be graduating in 3 weeks and do not have any employment lined up yet. I attend a top 50 law school in the top 50% of my class. It seems as though I am reading more and more about the lack of attorney jobs out there. I used to be worried about getting stuck in a field that I was not interested in or would make it tough getting up in the morning. Now, I am worried that I will not even be able to settle for that. Although I do not blame anybody else for what seems to be a tightening of the employment market, I do think it is something schools sweep under the rug. I was one of the naive law students who thought taking out thousands in loans to attend would provide me and my future family with great opportunities for a better life. Now, “kids” are not even contemplated in the next 5 yrs until I can get my ducks in a row career wise. I am beginning to wonder if I made the correct choice.
Posted by Philip Williams - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 6 minutes ago

This article should be read in conjunction with the Wall Street Journal’s coverage of the actual careers of a number of recent law school grads, which is realistic, gritty and not so flattering. The real problem is that there are way more grads than there are salaried positions. The law schools know and care nothing of this but that does not stop them from cranking out more lawyers than the market can absorb; administrator and professors are not drawn from the ranks of practitioners. New law schools spring up every year because law schools are cash cows and build prestige for the sponsoring institution. NC (where I am) has a very low ratio of lawyers to people but many lawyers still have to hustle traffic tickets by mail and on the internet for as low as $65 a pop. My advice to all would-be lawyers: if you can go without borrowing money, go. If you think you can go and then work off the loans, think again. Go to the cheapest law school you can go because there is little difference in the education available; marry a low-maintenance spouse; and finally, go to a small town without a lawyer when you get out and do the best you can. You may not have a Pottery Barn there but what you make will compare well with what the others there make.
Posted by Jeff - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 3 minutes ago

Stories like this are why I tell anyone who asks me if they should go to law school the following: unless you are going to a Top 20 law school, and expect to do well there (e.g., you showed aptitude for this kind of study in undergrad, etc.), either (a) go to the best school you can that will limit your debt as much as possible, or (b) don’t go at all.

I went to a law school ranked somewhere in the 70s, limited my debt to around $35,000, and those decisions have made all the difference in the world. This, combined with the fact that I did well, gave me a lot of options. I ultimately left a firm after a short stint to take a public service job at a much lower salary in a higher cost of living area, and I never could have taken that opportunity if I hadn’t limited my debt. Ultimately, the organization that I work for paid off the majority of my remaining loans (a lot of government and service organizations have those kinds of programs), meaning I am five years our of law school with solid policy and litigation experience and NO DEBT. That makes me like the legal profession a lot more than I might have otherwise.

Also, this article doesn’t mention the new opportunities recent changes in the law give people with large law school loans that want to take jobs like the subject. Has she looked into that I wonder? My guess is no - most people that agree to be the subject of an article like this do more whining than addressing their situation.
Posted by Kristine - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes ago

I don’t disagree with most of the comments posted but had to note that I’m appalled at Bil Dickey’s comment that this hardworking, educated single mother “might meet her meal ticket.” What a blatantly sexist comment. There is nothing wrong with expecting a person’s salary to cover their living expenses, regardless of their gender. The fact that this woman might be “lucky” enough to meet a man who would “provide” for her is insulting to women who earn their own way everywhere. The fact that you chose to insult HER by implying that finding a husbnd would solve her problems, is nothing short of demeaning and ridiculous.
Posted by Aaron - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 52 minutes ago

I graduated with more than $100k in loans, and I’ve found that I’m doing pretty comfortably making about what Ms. Wrenn makes.

However, I don’t live in a big city—I moved to a mid-sized town with a decent county bar association. I practice civil litigation for a mid-sized local firm (15 lawyers). Cost of living is low, commutes are short, and downtown clears out at 5:30 p.m. I make a good living, am saving money and paying off debt. From what I can tell, my fellow law grads here who want to work are doing the same.

From what I’ve heard, the big cities and “hip” places to live seem more saturated with lawyers than the rest of the country. Not that it’s easy making a living elsewhere, but it’s a lot less pressure. If you do a good job here, you actually feel like you’re making a difference, because there aren’t thousands of other people doing the same thing.

Just a suggestion, for those law students who are scared about not having top grades from a top school—you might want to look at some of the smaller markets for employment.
Posted by Donna Larsen - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 44 minutes ago

There are many ways to enhance your legal career that involve law, not alcohol. These include writing articles or books about law (just ask the author of this article), putting on CLE’s, teaching nights at the local community college, creating a blog, etc. If you enjoy law and are good at it (and have some imagination) the money will follow.

I’m a first year law student at Seattle U, and president of the Criminal Justice Society. SU didn’t have a CJS so I created it and am currently the only 1L club president at my school. We are going to put on a CLE as a fund raiser. There are lots of opportunities for lawyers who don’t mind working at it.

Today at the school we have something called the “Choices” Conference. It’s alternatives to working at law firms and I’m putting on a panel called “Enhancing your Legal Career through Writing.” I have Mark Lindquist, a Pierce County prosecutor who just wrote “The King of Methlahem,” a novel. Someone else who writes for Washington Practice, a personal injury lawyer who wrote a “10-Ways your insurance company screws you” type book, and Laurel Oates, who wrote THE book law schools use in their legal writing curriculum.

So the moral to the story is… law is work, but if you work it, the money will come.
Posted by ed kelly - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 42 minutes ago

Kind of begs the question of satisfaction doesn’t it? Is she happy being a county attorney? Apparently. Is she happy tending bar? It appears so. Are the kids starving? House in foreclosure? Debt payments not being met? Probably not. Hey...your bliss isn’t measured in dollars. I can show you top dollar lawyers who are miserable and I can show you folks who work three jobs and are happy. It ain’t about the almighty dollar unless you make it about the almighty dollar.
Posted by Joseph - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 33 minutes ago

To Kristine and Bil…

I read Bils post to mean she would meet a client with a case worth millions. I’m not sure if that makes me better or worse than Bil. :)

If it meant “husband” I concur with Kristine completely.
Posted by Brian Griffin - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 14 minutes ago

Donna-

I envy your optimism, but I am surpirsed that a first year law student finds herself qualified to offer career advice to the working bar. Graduate, get a job (or try to) and then come back and let us know what advice you have to offer.
Posted by MLW - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 7 minutes ago

This article, like so many others on the topic, illustrates a single point that applies equally to lawyers and non-lawyers alike: people like Ms. Wrenn need to start acting like responsible adults and taking charge of their lives and careers and stop whining like the world owes them the favor of a cushy life. As a Biglaw associate who paid off her $100K in loans after just a couple of years in practice through many hours of work and sacrifice, I have little sympathy for Ms. Wrenn, who apparently has so much free time that she can take on a second job. Slogging away at a big law firm is not exactly the most glamorous of jobs, or what I plan to do with my life forever, but after evaluating the choice I made to incur $100,000 in debt to attend law school, I decided it was the best option for me so that I could ultimately achieve what I wanted to with my law degree. Somewhere along the line Ms. Wrenn - and every other lawyer - had to make the same type of decisions. It’s unfortunate that she’s made some poor decisions in her life that she’s now unhappy worth, but it’s certainly not newsworthy!
Posted by Donna - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago

To Brian Griffin - It’s not optimism, it’s confidence. It’s the confidence of a 38-year-old woman, who always winds up being able to live her dreams… due to her work ethic.
Posted by MICKY - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 43 minutes ago

I don’t think that the larger point is that particular people are unhappy with their salaries. Nor is it about people learning to live with their own choices. I think the point is that there is a larger structural problem in this field with regard to what work is well compensated and what work is not. We should be taking a second look as a profession at why we would compensate a first year associate at a firm (even a nice firm) more than twice we compensate a seven year public servant.

But this is a problem in more than the law profession. It is a problem in every field that allows the market to determine what we value and compensate instead of talking about whose work is really serving society. Charles Hamilton Huston said “Attorneys are either architects for social justice or parasites.” It is not surprisinng that the parasites get paid more, but we should be willing to talk about it.
Posted by jenn - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 41 minutes ago

interesting, especially the posts.
Posted by Bill - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 41 minutes ago

I agree with Brian; Donna (#13), you’re a 1L. You’ve had two semesters of law school; you know nothing about the legal market, and it’s rather presumptuous to lecture to real lawyers. I also started a student organization and a journal at my school, and it ultimately meant nothing in terms of my marketability.

And I love the inevitable posts by people like MLK (#17), saying everyone needs to stop whining, because they’re really happy with their BigLaw job that they work oh so hard at. Reread the article, MLK: most grads find it impossible to get the high-paying jobs, and struggle just as hard as you do at low-paying positions - if they’re lucky. They don’t have the choice of considering a good job and “deciding it was the best option,” as you were privileged enough to do.

And Dickey (#3), I’m glad you’re not starving, but I am. I live on Campbell’s soup and grilled cheese. And no, we weren’t forced into going to law school, but most of us were lied to about it. My school just claimed a 96% employment rate for our graduating class. We had just about 100 grads, and I personally know that a lot more than four are still unemployed. Of course, not when the school counts working at McDonald’s as being employed.
Posted by FAR - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 39 minutes ago

I think the best thing a person can do if they want to go to law school is go out and get a real job for awhile after college and get some experience doing something. Too many people in law school are right out of college and, to put it bluntly, don’t know jack about jack. I am about to graduate from a 4th tier law school. I am a former military officer. I worked at a big law firm last summer making the big bucks. ( I dont want to go back and do that though). I presently have 2 and possibly a third job offer (will be interviewing soon) all for over 70K a year. I put in the time at school to do well because I knew how hard it would be to get a good job out of the school I go to. My first year of school I was in the library at least 12 hours Monday through Friday and at least 8 hours on each Saturday and Sunday. Becuase I put in the time my first year it make my second and third year much easier. Working before law school also made it possible for me to go to my 30K a year TTTT school and not come out with backbreaking debt. I will owe about 57K.

So take note future law students
1) Get a job and some real world experience
2) Understand that you need to be serious in law school and put the time in to do well.
3) If you do 1 and 2 above, you will actually have something to offer a law firm when you graduate and will be one of the envied 3L’s who does not have to worry about getting a job.

-just my two cents.
Posted by SoSo - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 32 minutes ago

I do not feel sorry for any of those poor legal souls floating in employment purgatory after willfiully having made a decision to attend law school. As I finish my 2nd year in law school, I have witnessed that those who don’t get “good” jobs are just lazy. I attend a 70ish law school and am near the top fifth of my class. Although I made a driving effort at the NALP firms, I didn’t get a single offer; however, my job search did not start and stop with the $160k jobs. I ended up applying to over 80 law firms both big and small. This summer I will be working for a mid size firm as a summer associate with an annual salary of $75,000. I, however, like most will have about $100k in debt when all is said and done. I am happy that I got a job, but looking back, I would have done the whole thing a bit differently. I would suggest going to a cheap school unless you get accepted into the Top 20. State schools have amazing reputations and they are a third of the cost. Law Schools are simply money-making machines.
Posted by Daniel Key - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 18 minutes ago

Just a short comment about post #9. Like doctors, there is a need for lawyers in many smaller towns and their surrounding rural areas. The absence of professionals in these areas is the result of young law school grads wishing to avoid the “social void” and congesting the “more attractive” with a glut of attorneys. I graduated from a small midwest law school in 2005 at the age of 44 [$125,000 debt]. None of the younger students I knew would consider practicing anywhere but Chicago, Milwaukee, or the Twin Cities. Go to the small communities, you’ll learn fast, have a wide variety of clients, prestige, and you’ll make money.
Posted by Not A Lazy Lawyer! - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 9 minutes ago

In response to #22 -
Lazy??
Lazy???
LAZY?????????
How DARE you, a little second year STUDENT, call those of us who didn’t get “Big Law” jobs LAZY? I’ll have you know, I worked every summer and my entire third year of law school (attending law school full time) while also participating in my law school’s journal and several organizations and maintaining a position in the top 20% of my class. I dilligently sought employment in law firms big and small, but still did not find employment until months after graducation. I took the time and worked hard in my job search and eventually found the government job I really wanted, even it does pay less than Big Law. Salary isn’t the most important thing, job satisfaction is, and with careful budgeting and taking advantage of every program offered by student loan lenders to reduce payments, it is possible to live on much less than even what Ms. Wrenn earns. I will be paying my student loans off for many years to come, but it’s worth it.
Posted by BC - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 8 minutes ago

I’m a first year practicing at a big law firm in nyc...i’m one of the few people who graduated from my third tier law school who landed a job making 160k in nyc...it is hard out there for most students, whether top students at 2-4 tier schools or the middle ranked students at top schools, to get a job making over 80k after law school...in most cases, it takes more than good grades, had work, and being a pleasant person to be around....try a lot of luck too. Knowing what I do now, I’d never have went to a 3rd tier school, worked 30 hours per week, and ring up debt of about 85k, for the limited chance of getting a biglaw job....i’m one of the few who got lucky....
Posted by LegalAideIsFun...BUTUnderpaid - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 2 minutes ago

I find it very interesting that there are 26 comments about the widening pay check gap and the negative return on investment that is law school, while there are only 7 comments to an article posted at the same time about the work-life balance. I am a single mom, so the work-life balance is very important to me. In fact, I have chosen a position with legal aide that pays less than $40K just so I can be there when my daughter gets out of school each evening (or at least MOST evenings...) The relative disparity in the number of comments (while not a scientific predictor, to be sure) points to the fact that our profession as a whole is more interested in paychecks than the work-life balance. If this is true, we will all continue to work insane billable hours and read Blackberries during our children’s games in hopes of paying off student loan debt and providing for our family. Taken together, these articles stand for the premise that work-life balance must suffer if one is to land one of the cherished positions that allows one to actually PROVIDE for their family. Attorneys with families must choose between seeing their families and feeding their families. I wish someone had told me this before I signed up for law school… I would have just finished out my MBA and been done with it! I must concur with the other commenters who have summed it up thusly—do not go to law school ! (Obviously, I’m a lawyers, so there are exceptions to the black letter rule… )
Posted by Jason - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 56 minutes ago

The problem is that the ABA is allowing too many new law schools to open. Many colleges want to add a law school to their campus for the money or prestige it brings in while not taking into account if there is a demand for their graduates. It is not surprising, since the people who run academia are so out of touch with the real world anyhow. Many law schools are reducing their enrollments to increase selectivity or employments stats, but what that does is just raise tuition leading to more debt for the new grads. The best solution to perserve the prestige and income of the profession would be to get rid of these 4th tier law schools, there no reason people getting 140s on their LSATS should be attorneys. It just doesn’t effect new grads either, there is also lower incomes for the sr. partners at law firms in the city I live in because there is so much competition between firms for a limited amount of business that they are hurting each other charging low hourly rates as a way to get business.
Posted by lawyer33 - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 44 minutes ago

If your’e still in law school, please think twice about offering advice or opinions on this type of thing to those attorneys who have been and are practicing. Everyone likes to feel important and knowledgeable, but it’s insulting to get “advice” about the job market and obtaining employment from someone who’s still in law school. And to call people who you don’t know the slightest thing about lazy is an offensive stereotype.
Posted by Matt - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes ago

Jason #28

First, not all students attending 4th tier law schools scored a 140 on their LSAT. Many of us are older students, currently working and taking advantage of the schools flexible schedules. Some of us have family obligations; in my case two kids and a wife (who is also in law school).

Second, I am assuming (maybe I should not) that you actually scored higher than a 140 on you LSAT. That said, you should either know, or have the ability to determine that the ranking system does a poor job of both – ranking the school and predicting the effectiveness of the schools graduates.

Third, I agree that there are way too many schools producing way too many lawyers. However, it is unfair to assume that graduates from a fourth tier school should not be lawyers – OR that you are somehow better than they are.

I can think of at least one Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court that graduated from what is now ranked a 4th tier law school. Can you?
Posted by FAR - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 32 minutes ago

In response to #25. I think you mean “In response to # 23”. Nowhere in post #22 did I call anyone lazy. Pay attention to details and know who you are yelling at.

In defense of number 23 however, I have seen it over and over - all the “fresh out of college” kids who all they care about is complaining how much work law school is and living for the weekend so they can go party. Many of those kids didn’t make it through their first year which proves my point. Obviously that does not apply to everyone. Many people work very hard and due to the arbitrariness of law school grading, potentially great future attorneys just dont make the grades they need. This is part of the calculus that one needs to consider when deciding whether or not to go to law school. There are those who, like yourself, will apply themselves and still come up short in the job hunt. I don’t think I would tell anyone not to go to law school but I would tell them to be very careful with the decision and know everything they need to know before taking that plunge.
Posted by Guy - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 26 minutes ago

Im just not going to pay back my loans and live with my mom. I will work off the books. Everyone can go to hell. Im not getting screwed.
Posted by Bill - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 23 minutes ago

While Matt is correct in that there are some very qualified students attending 4th schools for a variety of reasons (another reason why firms’ value of ranking is absurd), there are many, many students at those schools who have absolutely no business whatsoever being attorneys. If you put in enough work, you’ll graduate and even pass the bar, but that alone doesn’t always mean that a 24-year-old mouth-breather frat guy should be a lawyer. Considering the fact that there are way too many law grads, the best solution would be to eliminate every 4th tier - and probably many 3rds as well. Granted, many cities only have a 4th tier school, but many cities have no law school at all, so that’s largely irrelevant. Law school should be hard to get into, but it’s not!

A futile debate, anyway… the ABA just continues accrediting away.
Posted by mike hunt - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 48 minutes ago

It should be noted that there are many students at T1 schools (my classmates, so this is coming from personal experience) who shouldn’t be attorneys for a variety of reasons, one being that they have the people skills of a 1 year old, or are just generally incompetent but tested well. With that being said, there are people who went to T4 schools that I wouldn’t let handle a traffic ticket.
Posted by Anonymous - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes ago

I would love to make 56K a year. I’ve been licensed for a year (as of yesterday) and I’m still earning $11.00 an hour, less than most clerks make in my city.

No, that is not a typo. It translates to about HALF of what the subject of the story is making. Why is she complaining? Granted, the cost of living in Lincoln, Nebraska, is not quite the same as Chicago, but I’m guessing that difference is made up by the fact that I get no benefits whatsoever.
Posted by joe - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes ago

This board is so full of alarmists and exagerators. I went to Hastings, which is only ranked like 38th, and more than half the students got Big Law jobs. Everyone else, except the very bottom maybe, still snagged jobs earning between $75,000 and $100,000 to start. Even bottom “top 100” schools will give you a good shot at this. Now as for 3rd and 4th tier, don’t go there unless you think you can transfer.
Posted by sal - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 29 minutes ago

#32’s post is funny, sad and true. I feel that underlying the majority of the comments is a distrust of law school promises of well-paid employment. I went to a 2nd tier school that published a 92% employment rate with an average annual salary of $104,000. This just wasn’t true and I’m sure, from all the comments, that my school wasn’t the only one. It’s no wonder that disillusionment is widespread in the profession. However, I don’t see law schools changing their marketing strategy until they are required to meet the same professional standards of their alumni.
Posted by AFM - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 14 minutes ago

If I’m not mistaken, the Medical profession and schools limit incoming student numbers to the number of available internships (fairly well-paid) upon graduation, thus enabling a return on substantial investment of time an money.

Perhaps J.D.s can learn something from M.D.s.
Posted by Richie - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 5 minutes ago

Yes, and it’s too hard and not near the top in publicly admired professions. We are constantly discouraged by local bar focus on consequences meted out to wrongdoing attorneys, as if that is something they have to worry about the majority of us doing. We are told we should do even MORE free work, “pro bono.” We do not have many benefits. I’ve urged my children to get teaching certificates—teachers have these things in many ways, which attorneys don’t. Then, there are the summer vacation! The one who expressed an interest in law school: I advised him to become a teacher first, then if he feels like it, go to law school part time evenings, if someone else will pay the bill.
Posted by govt atty - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours ago

It seems that anyone pursuing an advanced degree of any type should carefully consider her true goals. I think Consumer Reports recently published a statistic about the “profitability” of an MBA, JD, MD, and DVM. In simple terms of return on investment, the MBA was the most lucrative choice, MD in 2nd, JD in 3rd, and DVM in dead last. I’ve practiced for nearly seven years now, and have to say that it took some time to find the right legal career fit, but it is out there. I earn a fair living, enjoy the type of work I’m doing, love my co-workers, and, most importantly, have enough time to spend with family. Good luck, recent grads! Be tenacious.
Posted by Laughing - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 30 minutes ago

Sometimes I just can’t help but laugh at the garbage I read in these blogs…

Come on people, let’s all take a deep breath and admit that almost every senior attorney we know, whether in private practice, or government, earns a six figure salary. And some earn much more. Even public defenders earn six figures after they have been there long enough.

You can’t say that about almost every other profession in existence. My friends who are liberal arts professors will never get above $75k and they don’t complain. My friends who are teachers will be lucky to make $60k, yet somehow they make it. My friends in business are happy with $90k jobs as “senior managers,” and in fact actually consider themselves successful at those pauper wages.

And let’s not forget that ANY lawyer with half a brain can simply hang out a shingle and make a good living. I know several solos who earn great money while achieving a good life balance. And more than one of them did it right out of law school. How many other professions allow you to “create” your own job?

Attorneys who feel sorry for themselves are just pathetic. They are cut from the same cloth as the spoiled rich kids in law school who revile having to do real work for the first time in their lives. If you aren’t happy with your compensation or workload there is always barber college. Then maybe you can see what it’s like to work without a secretary answering your phone for you.
Posted by 2nd year practice - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 29 minutes ago

I have been following the postings all day, learning there are others out there struggling too. I can’t complain about my salary compared to others, especially in public positions, but with the cost of my son’s daycare, student loans, and the economy, I am feeling the strain. My firm cut bonuses and stopped paying for my cell phone/Blackberry expenses this year. That accounted for 15% of my income. After taxes and paying student loans, I take home less than $25K/year. Add on to that close to $700/month in childcare… I think you get the picture.

I appreciate the comments that one should not pursue a law career for the money, but I at least expected to be able to pay all my bills with a doctorate degree. I was not privileged with the ability to go to law school with no debt, I had to take out loans for tuition and living expenses despite the fact that I worked all the way through. I just started my second year of practice. I thoroughly enjoy the practice of law, but I am looking for other positions, or even a second job, leaning on my business undergrad degree. At this point, I would choose not to attend law school if I had it to do over again. The law profession does not look out for its own in preparing them for the field as other professions, such as the medical field. I love the law, but can’t afford to stay.
Posted by can't leave - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 16 minutes ago

I appreciate the advice of “if you don’t like it, leave,” but it’s not that easy. I have looked and interviewed for higher paying jobs in the business world, jobs on the level I had prior to law school, but now, my law degree is holding my back. As a licensed attorney, I am over qualified and can not get an offer. I disagree with the idea that a law degree will open doors. I thought the same thing when I decided to attend law school. I decided if I don’t not want to practice, I wouldn’t have to. After practicing a few years, I am now branded. Teaching is my only option to pay my student loans.
Posted by No pity - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 43 minutes ago

I don’t feel sorry for this person. I have $174,000 in debt from law school and only make $80,000, and I have dependents. Proportionally, I am worse off than her $100,000/59,000 situation and I don’t need a second job.
Posted by Bill - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 42 minutes ago

"I love the law, but can’t afford to stay.” What a sad statement. How I wish that all those laypeople whose opinion of lawyers is formed by John Grisham movies and think that every law student is offered a six-figure job and Mercedes upon graduation could read these posts. “The law profession does not look out for its own,” indeed. It eats them.
Posted by John - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 41 minutes ago

Bill uses the pejorative “barfly” to describe a bartender. He ascribes shady motives to her working at a bar (meeting a meal ticket) when she is just trying to provide for her family. He then says he “sounds like a philosopher.” It would be better for all if Bill would actually listen to himself. Then he’d know what he really sounds like.
Posted by Ruminatng - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 37 minutes ago

#41 sounds like the closest one to me. I’m a re-comment, same as #35. I would love to be able to take home $25K a year “after taxes and paying student loans.” I would be going under if my wife wasn’t a nurse.

I’m totally in agreement with #42 also. A J.D. does not open doors. It closes them. I am far over-qualified for most jobs that would interest me, and I’m under-qualified for all the others. Add that together with my employer taking full advantage of the situation, and I’m screwed.

I didn’t get into this for the money. I love the job. But after 7 years of higher education, I’m sick and tired of getting paid less than the high school diploma weilding developmentally-disabled people who work in the cafeteria at the hospital where my wife works.
Posted by anon - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 16 hours, 49 minutes ago

From #17: “This article, like so many others on the topic, illustrates a single point that applies equally to lawyers and non-lawyers alike: people like Ms. Wrenn need to start acting like responsible adults and taking charge of their lives and careers and stop whining like the world owes them the favor of a cushy life. As a Biglaw associate who paid off her $100K in loans after just a couple of years in practice...”
--did you even read the article?? How does your making 160k + bonus to start compare to her making 59k?? Unlike you, she went to a T3 school and didn’t have the same luxury of biglaw as you did to make six figures and pay off your debt.
Posted by Anonymous - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes ago

The debt is killing young lawyers today. I know someone who is working at a small firm and COLLECTING FOOD STAMPS!!! Many of my tier 2 colleagues are working in horrible, dead-end document review positions in the basements of biglaw where they aren’t developing any skills and are being treated like crap. Read Tom the Temp’s blog to get a taste of some of the hell that recent grads are living on a daily basis. http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com
Posted by Rainmaker - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 16 hours, 5 minutes ago

Start your own firms if you want to make money. The myth that landing a big-law job is the road to happiness and financial security is one of the greatest disservices done to law students. Those people are wage slaves. $160k in NYC isn’t a lot of money folks, especially when you can make $200k+ in your own practice in almost any mid-sized city in America. Not to mention the tremendous advantage of controlling your own client load and schedule.

Self-incorporate for $250, go downtown and rent an executive suite for $800 per month, drop $5k for yellow page adds, get insurance for when you screw up, print up some business cards and answer your phone when it rings and you will make plenty of money. The first year might be a little rough, but it’s easy enough to do all things considered.
Posted by I would rather not say - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 34 minutes ago

The single mom should hang in there. I graduated in the middle of the pack from a tier II law school about 7 years ago and it took me this long to reach a 104,000.00 a year salary. She already has connections and as someone else said she probably will be appointed as a judge at some point. If you didn’t go to a top school and you’re not a top student, you had better work hard and make some connections.
Posted by don't eat me - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 9 minutes ago

This blog is out of control. If people who posted this stuff were stuffed in a single room together at once they would start eating each other. Jeezus. I do agree that it almost seems that the ABA is posting these kinds of stories on purpose to provoke a rise out of a desperate crowd. You said it, number 6.
Posted by John - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 1 minute ago

The ABA and American Lawyer cater to big eastern law firms and the “T-#” law school crowd in order to sell magazines. Second, Easterners just can’t help but grade themselves into classes.
Posted by Nobody said life was fair - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 19 minutes ago

I’ve been out 8 years. I got my first legal job in the February FOLLOWING my graduation. So, for a few months, I was a JD working a temp. file clerk and then for the next few months I was an attorney working as a temp. file clerk.
First law job paid $34k. Worked my ass off. Was up at 4:30 a.m. every weekend so I could worship the billable hour and then have time for my kids. Weekdays, I worked from kids’ bedtimes until 12:30 a.m. Anyway, I got noticed by a bigger firm and moved over there for $60k. Absolutely miserable - biggest collection of assholes I ever met. Still, kept working hard and after four years got noticed by an even bigger firm and moved over there for $110k and been there ever since. Bottom line, 8 years ago I was a file clerk with a ticket; now I’m a partner in a large firm (relatively speaking) in the Midwest making well into six figures. My car is 6 years old, I don’t have a big-screen HDTV, I buy my suits from Lands End and my house is no country estate, but my loans are long since paid off. What happened to me won’t happen to 100% of attorneys, but my point is this: it isn’t going to come quick or easy for 75% of us. So either be miserable for a few years while you settle in for the long haul, work hard and sacrifice or be miserable for life.
Posted by Nobody said life was fair - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 11 minutes ago

Here’s a link to an article many of you will probbaly find useful:

http://www.revolutionhealth.com/news/?id=reut-20080410mdia001&msc=A64611
Posted by LC - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 13 hours, 23 minutes ago

I didn’t really have a sense of the salary gap until recently. I met a Harvard Law grad who chose to start his career in the 60’s at Legal Aid. Then, as now, he took a significant cut in pay opportunity; he was paid $10G’s while his peers who went to NY firms were paid $15G’s. Yet he was able to buy a house, start a family, and SAVE money almost immediately. If the pay ratio had remained constant, a Legal Aid attorney would be getting over $100G’s starting out today. Even if Legal Aid paid that much today, a fresh out lawyer still wouldn’t be able to buy a house, etc. in CA or NY!
Posted by Angry Grad - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours, 48 minutes ago

I’m a past ABA LSDer, current committee member and I have not been able to get ANY job after nine months, 300 resumes, 12 interviews, and six conferences. I had problems getting summer associate positions during school in spite of Congressional experience, 400 resumes, numerous bar conferences (ABA, FBA, Section and Forum meetings), top 40 school and decent grades (3.0/4.0).

I would be very happy with a law firm position for $80K. I would be happy with a public sector position, returning to Hill, a non profit position, but the economy and waiting nine months for my license, after moving back to DC...I’m about to declare bankruptcy and give up on the legal profession in toto. My career services office is of no help (two staffers for 450 current students and countless alumni). Networking hasn’t worked. And I’m to the point where I don’t have the money to apply to waive into DC.

The legal profession is more than a harsh mistress, it’s a bi$6&. And the worst part is I know I’m not alone. And the irony is I work to improve access to legal education for those minority students that come behind me. I don’t have much hope to offer them. And I read constant articles of how great the demand is by BIglaw, while they offshore $3.2 billion in legal work to Inida.

The ABA needs to do MUCH MUCH more to improve legal employment for students and grads.
Posted by Jim - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes ago

So, what else is new? When I graduated (and not from a top tier school - in fact, quite the opposite), I spent 18 months llooking for work in vain. I only secured a job because I interned for free for 6 months at the Public Defender’s Office. They hired me at the princely salary of $28,000/year (1998). (Today, the PDs office salary is in the $42-45,000 range.) This in spite of the fact that before attending law school, I owned a mortgage banking company with FHA and VA lending authority and owned this company for 13 years before entering law school.

My property professor 1st term called me an authority in the field of real property law and I “aced” his class in law school. The staff attorneys in the school’s law clinic (in my 3rd year) used to call me in to ask my opinion on real estate related cases that came into the clinic. My “diagnosis was never wrong.

Today, I am retired and did so 1 week before turning 50. Why? I was a better private investor than anything else. (And, I still have my VA lending authority and a mortgage lender’s license from my state’s banking authorities to boot!) When asked by youngsters about law school , I do everything in my power to talk them OUT of going. There are too many lawyers and not enough work for them all. All of these comments seem to point to that conclusion.

The get rich dreams peddled to those starry eyed law school wannabes are a hoax. Fortunately, I am financially secure enough now so I don’t have to participate in the rat race anymore. As Lily Tomlin used to say: Even if you win the rat race, you’re still a rat!

Good luck to all of you in your quest to secure happiness and financial security.
Posted by JC - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 43 minutes ago

All I can say is wow. I went to a 4th tier school, 160’s LSAT (so much for 140). Admitted in 3 states (bar exams, not reciprocity). Worked as a PD 2 1/2 years, leaving behind a 60k salary. Been in private practice now 2 years. 80k net for ‘06, 90k net for ‘07. This year should be much better yet, as my big cases from the last year will start to resolve, and I am getting more and better referrals. The County I live in has a population of 60k. I would rather spend my 90k here, than 160 in NYC. I have 3 kids. I am nothing special, but doing fine. I would do it again, and encourage people to go to law school. People who are looking for a paycheck, from an employer have the wrong idea about what being a lawyer is all about for most of us. It has always been the case that a few make big money in big firms. The majority of us, to do anything significant will strike out on our own, or in a partnership, and find our niche. I did not go to law school to be an employee. No profession, with the exception of perhaps pharmacy is meant to be a ticket to a high-paying job. How many Doctor’s do you know that work “for” someone? Accountants?
Posted by Lindsay - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 14 minutes ago

So now what about the rest of us who are smack dab in the middle of law school at a tier 4 school? I just read the entirety of posts and to be honest I am more concerned about this than finals next week. This is completely disheartening for me. I am already almost 60K in debt and seemingly at the point of no return. Any real, honest, non-bitter advice from someone who has been through the “ringer”?
Posted by Joe - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 2 minutes ago

My wife’s good friend is a nurse. At the school she attended, they limited the number of entrants into her program. A lot of qualified people didn’t get in. The reason, the school she went to wanted to make sure everyone who graduated could get a decent job. The result, even before she graduated, she received dozens of solicitations a week offering great perks and fat bonuses to go work for this hospital or that one.

What if law schools did that? For starters, about half the law schools in the country should just close their doors, so that maybe every state has one. Second, the ones who remain open should only let in about 30 students a year. Of course, this will never happen because law schools are in the business of making lawyers, not making sure they get jobs. Professors bring home their fat paychecks regardless of whether their grads can get jobs or not. So, really, why should they care?
Posted by Concerned 1-L - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 52 minutes ago

I am a 1-L at a fourth tier (but on the move up) law school. I decided to attend the school I am at because they offered a full scholarship. However I still have to borrow around 15K a year to live off of and have undergrad debt. Like commenter # 60 I am disheartened by the summation of these posts. I have an engineering background (taking patent bar this summer) and my question is do patent attorneys generally share the same dissatisfaction with their earnings as many of their counterparts in other fields of law?
Posted by DNC - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 54 minutes ago

To Rainmaker at post #50,

I am taking your advice. I am a couple of years out of law school, a member of two bars, former military with corporate experience who has been working document review to pay the bills. I am making over $100K annually on the document review (in DC) but I am not getting any legal experience, so I recently applied for liability insurance and I am going to go solo. It won’t be easy but neither was working full time and attending law school at night.

signed,
Taking the plunge
Posted by public servant - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 34 minutes ago

Going Solo is not the answer in small town America! IF you do decide to go solo, you better have another source of income to pay your bills. In today’s economy, the lawyer’s bill goes to the bottom of the stack. And in small town America, the Jduges don’t let you off a case just because your client can’t keep paying you. You are stuck and do hundreds of hours of work for an ungrateful client that paid a retainer and then won’t pay another dime no matter how good a job you do for them, and the Judges don’t give a rat’s behind. I spent the last year trying to run a solo practice and earned nothing for myself. I paid a secretary, which I had to do since I spend most of my time running from criminal court to family court and night courts, or closings. I have to have someone answering phones, making my appointments and doing all the paperwork and deeds that I have no time to type myself. But, if it were not for a wife with a job that barely makes $20K, we would be in bankruptcy right now. (And to top it off, I can’t even file for it, because Bankruptcy is grounds for disbarment in my state!). We nearly are bankrupt and have to struggle to pay all the credit card debt we racked up in the months when I could not draw any money from my practice. After nearly two years of clients not paying and Judges not caring to let me off cases in midstream when my client’s resources dired up, I gave up. I have taken a public sector job for $59K. My 20 years of experience are meaningless and I make less than almost every lawyer in the place, but once we refinance and consolidate some debt into the mortgage, my family should be able to finally live without relying on credit most of the year. And we have health insurnace, which is getting critical as we age. Solo practice is NOT all it is cracked up to be in a rural community with income averages of only $40K and unemployment rates sky rocketing. People can’t pay for the legal services they need and the Judges, with their inflated salaries (I don’t even want to hear about how underpaid those pompous asses think they are), don’t give a rat’s behind about the struggles of a solo practitioner who is not being paid by ungrateful clients who put the lawyer last on the list bills of they want to pay. Reform needs to start at the level of the highest paid and the judiciary, and they have to realize that lawyers have to be let off cases when they are not getting paid. I reached the point where I did not care any more if my client lost her kids, or went to jail, or could not get his grandfather’s estate settled, or was getting railroaded by a landlord, or screwed by her employer. Be prepared if you go into solo practice. It is NOT all its cracked up to be. You do NOT have complete control over your caseload and judges don’t care about you. Keep that in mind if you “hang a shingle.” When asked what is the best route to get to be a lawyer by high school or college students, I tell them DON’T bother. There are too many lawyers, not enough jobs, and people can’t afford legal services any more. Find something else you love and do that. OR become a court stenographer, they make a fortune!
Posted by Government Attorney - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 13 minutes ago

It is fair to say that there is no guarantee that law school will provide the ticket you need to a secure future. You need to decide what you want for your life and the price you are willing to pay. Early in my law career, I decided that I didn’t want to be a slave to the billable hour. What that meant was that I gave up opportunities for massive salaries. I’m okay with that. While it has taken me 15 years to rise through the government ranks, I am finally “made it,” attaining that SES legal spot. Even without that SES job, most government attorneys generally rise to the 15 level (which is about 110K a year, average time 8 years to attain). My advice to others is to decide what is important to you early in your career, work hard, find good mentors and bring as many others along behind you as possible (not only is that the right thing to do but this increases your own network exponentailly). BTW - I agree with all the posts that the ABA is part of the problem since they have refused to embrace the selectivity of the AMA which limits the number of graduates to spots available to work).
Posted by Candice Baker Leit - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 20 hours, 57 minutes ago

I’ve read the article and comments with interest as a local university is considering establishing a new law school in Rochester, New York. Within less than an hour and a half radius, there are three other law schools: University of Buffalo, Syracuse and Cornell. While I support additional economic stimulus in this region, I am concerned that adding a fourth tier law school upstate would be a disservice to potential law students.
Posted by Patent Litigator - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 20 hours, 46 minutes ago

#62 - If you are an electrical engineer you should be fine. Of course, you’ll have to do pretty well at your teir 4 school. A great way to see if you will like the profession is to do what you are already plan to do. Take and pass the patent bar. You can get a job as a patent agent if you have an EE background next fall. There is a dire need for EE patent attorneys. Several firms are offering extra signing bonuses for EE. You should also know that there are limitations on where you can live and practice as a patent attorney.
Posted by Charles W - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 20 hours, 2 minutes ago

Too many people have this weird idea that if you are a lawyer, you are automatically rich. I agree with the people who say that those contemplating law school should be emphatically told that it ain’t so, instead of being given statistics that show how much money the top graduates earn.

After being unsuccessful at several other careers, I decided in late middle age to try law school. Why not? I thought that maybe, with a law degree in hand, I’d be able to do something that I had never been able to do—make decent money. (By the way, I also have three other college degrees, all relatively worthless.)

No, I didn’t go to a “top-tier” law school, whatever that is, and I wasn’t in the top 15% of my class. About a year after graduation (working for temp agencies in the meantime), I was offered a beginning job at a law firm at the generous salary of $27,000 per year. That’s right, 27K! Why did I take it? Because it beat doing clerical office work for $8 an hour.

The firm that paid me $27K worked my butt off and treated me like a toad. Two years later, I was offered a better job at a better firm at $35,000 a year. But a year after that, the firm went broke (not my fault) and laid everybody off.

My next move was to open my own practice, which is where I am now. Currently my office grosses about $50K a year and has $30K in expenses, leaving me with $20K to take home. Thank God I have a wife who works and, like Jeanne, a second job to fill in the cracks. At least, being self-employed, I don’t have to take asinine orders from pin-headed bosses.

What’s my point? First, don’t lie to law students about how much they’ll earn. Second, don’t assume that all the lawyers you know are rich and that you shouldn’t have to pay them. Cut us some slack!
Posted by David M - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 19 hours, 4 minutes ago

I agree with the former posts that discussed the fact that most law schools, (especially 2nd tier ones) lie about the employment rate and average salary out of their individual law school. I had a great LSAT and unwisely chose to go to a 2nd tier to get a conditional scholarship rather than to go to a top 20 school. I ended up not being in the top 25%, so I lost my scholarship after the first year. Overall, I saved $30K for that first year’s tuition, but I’m paying more for it now.

It took me a few months to find the job I have now, which is alright, but I only make $60K before taxes. That leaves me about $40K after taxes, and in a big city like the one I live in, that is not much. My recommendation to those of you still in law school who are worried is this:
If you are at a top ranked school, or if you are doing well grades-wise at a lower ranked school, then take a big firm job for now, use them for the big bucks and experience and then leave after a couple years.. If you are at a lower ranked school with average or less than average grades, then I HIGHLY SUGGEST you get as MUCH WORK EXPERIENCE as you can right now. Forget about your stupid grades if you are already done w/ 1st year, and now get as much work experience as you can. Make sure you at least get C’s, and then work, which I should have done more of. By working, you at least are more marketable and will meet other attorneys, and you might even open your own practice.

As for me, hindsight is 20/20, i still kick myself in the butt everyday for listening to my school’s supposed employment statistics, which were blow out of proportion, I should’ve went to the better school. Now that I look forward, I plan on working at my current firm getting underpaid for a year, then perhaps working one more year at another firm hopefully making 10 to 20K more. Then after year 2 or 3, I plan on either opening up a solo, or convincing some old law school classmates of mine, who are entrepenurial in nature, to open up a small firm with me.
Posted by Angry Grad - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes ago

Just attended another Bar Conference. Handed a resume to the cheif recruiter for DOJ. Having worked for a Member of Congress investigating the firing of US Attorneys and suing the Administration, I’m betting dollars to donuts, I never hear from them.

I’ll do legal work for food at this point. 10 months of unemployment post law school is TOO much to bear.
Posted by Concerned 1-L - 2 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes ago

#67 My background is construction/civil engineering. Will that put me at a severe disadvantage regarding my marketability as a patent attorney?
Posted by Jobless JD - 2 months, 3 weeks, 1 day, 15 hours, 17 minutes ago

I think much of what everyone is experiencing is, sadly perhaps, nothing new. A family member of mine is a practicing attorney who attended a top named law school, was first in his class and editor in chief of his law review. It took him six months to find a job after taking the bar. That was close to fifteen years ago. Today he’s an associate with a mid-to-large sized law firm and is doing quite well. But this all came after many years of hard work and long hours first as a legal aid attorney and then as a prosecutor, all the while trying to pay down his school debt and make ends meet. So as I continue to struggle to find a job, I remind myself of the above and that if I’m willing to stay positive and work hard when someone gives me the opportunity to prove myself, things will work out.

Maybe the above is helpful to some, maybe none. It’s just my two cents. As for the single mother working two jobs, my hat is off to her and the lengths to which she’s gone to provide for her family.
Posted by Reply to Lindsay - 2 months, 3 weeks, 22 hours, 19 minutes ago

Lindsay, # 60, I am post #42, and despite #44’s opinion, my ratio is not that good. I have more debt than that person and make $25K less per year. That difference in salary would make all the difference.

My advice for you, if you would like some ideas at this point in your degree, is to be very aware of your financial situation. When you first graduate, get a roommate and limit your expenses as much as possible. If you don’t currently share expenses, do so if you can. Save anything you can and even consider using student loan money with lower interest rates to pay off high interest credit cards if you have them. To get a rough idea (very rough) of what your monthly student loan payments will be, multiple $60 for every $10K you have in student loan debt. That was the number I was told in law school it has held true for most people I know with both federal and private loans. Of course, the school never gave me this information, it came from alumni who were struggling financially too.

I agree with #69, get as much work experience as you can NOW. If you are through your 1st year, get at least a part-time job, even as a runner or a file clerk, anything in a law office. The work experience will open more jobs for you than attending bar luncheons and trying to network. Take steps now to get a job and consider what you will be doing when you graduate. I was lucky enough to start a job the week after I took the bar exam. I don’t know how I would have survived if I was unemployed. Of course, be sure to study and pass the bar on the first try, even if you need to take out a bar loan and stop working for a couple of months. In general, take out only the loans you need, maybe for tuition or what you can get through federal loans, avoid private loans as much as possible. The monthly payments on private loans will be almost double that of your federal loans for the same amount. Good Luck.
Posted by 3rd year patent prosecution - 2 months, 3 weeks, 21 hours, 58 minutes ago

62 and 67:

I’m an EE with a law license. I went top tier and top of class. This is obviously the exception and not the rule. I do well, but I am sacrificing dearly with my wife and son.

You should be aware that you WILL NOT be offered a job other than patent prosecution if you have passed the patent bar. That said, you should definitely do it during law school.

If you want to even entertain the notion of practicing outside of patents, then you should expressly state at the beginning of any cover letter that you have no intention to ever practice patents.

Also, be aware that as a patent proseuctor, you are locked into big city jobs and going solo will not be possible. You should also realize that all of your work will be fixed fee which automatically limits your income, no matter how much you work at imporving your financial situation.

It’s a decent deal, but if I were doing it again, I’d either get an MBA or a pharamacy degree; probably pharmacy.
Posted by Amy - 2 months, 3 weeks, 24 minutes ago

to #60 - I was 5 months out of school before I found my first job (after 150 resumes). With no work exp. during school, I was in for a rude awakening (didn’t know how to write a motion or a form letter when I walked through the door). I was fired after a few months for not being productive enough. But I wasn’t bitter b/c I was grateful for any work at all & I learned so much while I was there. It took 7 more months (and 100 more resumes) before my next job offer - “eat what you kill” at a small firm where I got all the cases noone else wanted to work on. Left for maternity leave, when I came back the fulltime position I was promised had disappeared. Still not bitter, b/c that reference (and 50 more resumes) helped me get the job I have now, working part-time at a firm I love, with a great boss and mentor, doing interesting work. I’m making slightly more money than I did waiting tables through school, but I’m getting great experience, and I don’t feel like I’m sacrifing the family time with my 5 month daughter. With the support of my husband, and loans on deferment, we’re making it work. Even in a town with a law school, where the market certainly is flooded and the high-paying jobs scarce, if you keep plugging away, you’ll eventually find a good fit. Don’t get discouraged. If you love the law, it wil lbe worth it.
Posted by Anon - 2 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 58 minutes ago

I agree that the problem today is too many law schools promising too much to uninformed law students who are financing their education with loans and who are graduating in droves. The US does not need this many lawyers!! However, law is not an easy profession, nor does it involve easy street. Many young lawyers today want “work-life balance,” which is another way of saying many of them are unwilling to put in the time necessary to learn their profession. In addition, the quality of much of the legal education today is poor. At least, the legal education I see is poor. Currently my partner and I run a six lawyer practice in the burbs in Colorado, which has the third largest concentration of lawyers in the general population in the nation (after D.C. and California). We’ve hired plenty of young lawyers over the years and have been universally disappointed with them. We used to start new lawyers fresh out of law school at $45,000, and they were glad for the paycheck. We no longer hire new lawyers fresh out of law school because we’ve lost tens of thousands of dollars on them. First, most of them don’t know anything, including where the law library is (all they know is Lexis or Westlaw). Second, and perhaps as a result of the first, most of them want and expect to be “mentored,” which too often translates to spoon fed. (We do plenty of training and mentoring, but we draw the line at explaining how the digests work.) At the same time, most of them think they should be paid $75,000 to start and $100,000 by their second or third year of practice because that’s what the law school said was the going rate for first year lawyers, and they feel they deserve to be paid $75,000 at least because they have law school loans to repay as well as a mortgage. Adding injury to insult, they also need a healthy work-life balance, so they can’t work late tonight to finish the motion due tomorrow, they can’t come in this weekend to work on a client’s problem, and it’s unreasonable to expect them to bill 160 hours a month on client work. The problem is even worse when the 120 hours they do turn in can’t be billed because of the poor quality of the work that they did in those hours. In other words, we can’t afford to hire ‘em.
Posted by Bill - 2 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 16 hours, 41 minutes ago

"they feel they deserve to be paid $75,000 at least because they have law school loans to repay as well as a mortgage. Adding injury to insult, they also need a healthy work-life balance.”

Damn Abraham Lincoln.
Posted by Annemarie S Haner - 2 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes ago

I am, at 64, a partner in a two person law firm, although I was a solo until 6 years ago.

Law was a second career for me, taken up after marriage, divorce and two kids.

I wanted a challanging profession where I would never be bored. And I always intended to, and did start my own practice. I didn’t want to be rich, I just wanted to help people and make a decent living. And I have always done that.

I’ve practiced law in Boston and in rural NC, where I am located now, and have been for 13 years. The key to succeeding in this business (and make no mistake it IS a business as well as a profession) is the same formula as in any business: consistant quality work for clients and the willingness to do whatever it takes to deliver that quality work. That means long hours, yes, but if you like your clients and what you are doing, it works.
Undenyably it also takes a wide range of skill sets, in my case lawyering, business management, and just plain human emotional skills. I love people and I am practical. Where I do NOT have the skill sets (I HATE to manage money) I hire good people who ARE good at what I lack. In the early years, and in fact for 20 long years, I did family law, which is brutal. But both the need for services and the money to keep me afloat are there. I can’t be just any type of lawyer; I have to look around and investigate and find out what is needed in the area I live in. Then I find my bread and butter which allows me to look into other areas. As a result I have ended up doing consumer bankruptcy law, which helps people for real and which I love. I supplement that with wills and will packages which I noticed noone was advertising as doing in the yellow pages. And I spend the money to advertise. I have never had any help as my parents were sick and never COULD help. My first husband was a teacher in a middle school who died of cancer leaving me with two kids. So I talked myself into law school and left with $16K in debt. Can’t be done today, you say? My daughter did the same thing, graduating 5 years ago with only $5K in debt. She now works for a top Philadelphia firm and loves her work. She waitressed her way through, and worked hard and got scholarships. We are many and varied, and I consider myself lucky to have done what I did. Or maybe I should say its the Grace of God. That, certainly, and some luck and a LOT of hard work and common sense. My daughter probably would not like doing what I do, but then I don’t think i could succeed at what SHE does. The dream is still out there. I made low 6 figures until I decided to slow down and now I’m planning to retire at years end. So go for it, but be realisitic. And be willing to do what it takes, including branches of law that pay well (domestic, for example) in order to fund the work you really want to do. I’m really rural, and its NOT a high dollar area, and I do get paid. What can I say. Choose carefully after being brutally honest about your own strengths and weaknesses. And good luck.
Posted by by_gosh - 2 months, 2 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, 31 minutes ago

I wonder what percentage of the people in the low paying segment of the legal profession happen to be women???
Posted by NH42 - 2 months, 2 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, 40 minutes ago

I don’t know how you 2nd, 3rd and 4th tiers do it.

I graduated in 2005 right in the middle of my class at a top 20 law school, passed the bar the first time, and could not obtain a single paying (non-temp) legal job ....EVER… at ANY salary.

I gave up after a year of looking and said the hell with it. I took the legal degree off my resume and started applying for finance-related positions (which is what I majored in in undergrad). I obtained 3 offers in a week making more than most the people in my law class.

Unfortunately my 3 years in law school were a complete waste of time and money.

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