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‘Cravath Model’ that Created Have and Have-Not Law Grads Could Implode

Posted Jul 22, 2008, 08:00 am CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss

A chart showing the salaries of 2006 law graduates illustrates a striking finding: The bulk of new lawyers are almost evenly divided into the haves and the have-nots.

William Henderson, a professor of Indiana University School of Law, sees a connection between the salary distribution and the possible demise of the “Cravath system” of hiring by the big law firms.

Law firm salaries of 2006 grads had a “bimodal distribution,” meaning that salaries placed on a graph were clustered around two peaks, NALP figures show. While the median salary was $62,000, about 27 percent of full-time law graduates were earning $40,000 to $55,000 a year year, and about 28 percent were earning more than $100,000, Henderson reported on a post at Empirical Legal Studies last fall.

Now Henderson is advancing a couple theories about the market forces contributing to the unusual salary structure in a recent post at Empirical Legal Studies. One catalyst is the growth in the corporate legal services market. The other is the Cravath hiring system in which the top law firms seek to hire the highest-performing law grads from the best law schools.

Firms that don't want to be viewed as second rate are willing to pay ever higher salaries to hire these grads. Yet firms with lower profits per partner are struggling to continue paying high associate salaries.

At the same time, the struggling firms are losing some of their partners in marquee practice areas, who are moving on to law firms with higher profits per partner, he says. He identifies the marquee practice areas as white-collar crime, securities enforcement, mergers and acquisitions, private equity, emerging markets and intellectual property.

Meanwhile, partners at profitable firms in non-premium practice areas are moving downstream, he says. These less-than-premium practice areas include regulatory compliance, real estate, public finance, project finance, and trust and estates.

Firms without a good mix of premium practice areas will find it difficult to stick with the Cravath model, he concludes. “In other words, for many large law firms, the wheels of their hallowed business model are falling off.”

Henderson offers a solution in a working paper in which he notes a study at Bell Laboratories that found no relationship between star performers and IQ or their social abilities, Legal Ethics Forum reports.

The study found that high productivity was related to work strategies that could be taught. Top performers, the study found, were able to evaluate problems from the viewpoint of customers and managers. They also took initiative, tapped into co-workers’ expertise and built consensus. Henderson believes high-quality grads who may have missed the cutoff for in-campus interviews by the big firms could also be taught these qualities.

He proposes a new business model for law firms that hire these students with a goal of delivering high-level legal services in a cost-productive way. Henderson's proposal appears to suggest that such firms would rely on flat-fee and success-fee billing.

“Once a firm makes a fortune by focusing on an underserved middle market, it too will redefine our perceptions of eliteness,” he writes.

Updated at 10:05 a.m. to include information from Henderson's working paper.

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Title: ‘Cravath Model’ that Created Have and Have-Not Law Grads Could Implode

Comments

  1. Posted by kay sieverding - 3 months, 4 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 31 minutes ago

    The salaries for engineering grads from MIT, Stanford etc. and very competitive engineering schools do seem to be higher than from other schools. MIT and Stanford collect and publish compensation of alumni.  Also they get stock options. 

    I have a friend who hired people for Lockheed, however, and he said the state school grads were much better workers than the Stanford grads.  He said the state school grads were more “well balanced” , had a better attitude, and were less self-centered.

  2. Posted by Angry Recent Grad - 3 months, 4 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 46 minutes ago

    SHOULD implode.  SHOULD.

  3. Posted by Have Not! - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 15 hours, 6 minutes ago

    I’m a 2006 have not graduate.  I didn’t graduate from a Top Law School nor was I in the top 10% of my class.  Just getting my resume acknowledged is crazy!  I have tons of legal experience (granted as a paralegal) but I don’t need to be trained how to handle a file because I’ve been doing it!  What I thought would be a benefit, may actually have turned into my worst nightmare.  I look forward to the day with the Cravath model implodes (but I’m not holding my breath).  Thanks for making me feel worse than I already do.

  4. Posted by Not average joe - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes ago

    It shouldnt implode.  I worked my butt off to get into a T14.  After that, I had to endure the stiff competition to finsih somewhere decent.  I owe over $150,000 in student loans.  Not only do I need the huge salary, I deserve it, I’ve worked my butt off.

  5. Posted by Bill - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 27 minutes ago

    Love that modern Gen x/y attitude - “I deserve it.“ 

    You don’t get what you deserve in life; you get what you earn.  You and about a million other people work their “butts off” every day - it doesn’t mean everyone “deserves” an over-the-top salary - especially a wet-behind-the-ears, overly cocky, fresh-outta-school twenty something with an attitude.

    Get some life experience - work a real job; pay a mortgage; pay taxes; get married; raise a couple of kids - then tell me what you “deserve.“

  6. Posted by poovie - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 24 minutes ago

    No, you certianly are not an average Joe! How about watching your spelling there genius. You sound like a nightmare date.

  7. Posted by TTT Crusader - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Not average joe, you are most likely an “average joe” intellectually speaking. LOL at you for thinking you are smarter than anyone because you went to a T14. All that means is you got a good LSAT score. Law school is a joke, and so is most of law practice.

  8. Posted by Justin - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Joe-
    I worked my butt off in undergrad, had tons of extracurriculars, but still could not get into a top tier school (University of Texas didn’t take me, but did take minority students with the same or lower credentials- I love equality).  I’m at a Tier 3 school and, like you, will still graduate with over 150000 in debt.  That’s the problem with law school- even the less exceptional schools tend to have high tuition.  I’ve resigned myself to finding a government job so that I can take advantage of the Income Based Repayment.  Thankfully, in interning for the U.S. Attorney’s Office I’ve found its work I enjoy, and work I’m pretty decent at.

  9. Posted by You Poor Thing... - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 55 minutes ago

    Worked your butt off, did you?  You poor thing.  It’s terrible to have to work hard.  Not that anyone else would know just how hard YOU worked.  $150,000 in student loans?  Care for any sick relatives while you were in school?  Have a hard time balancing your studies with your work with the poor, or the juvenile justice system?  Or are those loans because all you did was study?

    My Mom worked 70 hour weeks for decades to pay her bills and feed her kids.  She was able to quit her second job when she hit 65, now that she’s making $12.50/hour.

    When you get that posh job that you earned “working your butt off” for THREE LONG YEARS, just make sure some of those people who work their butts off their whole life are on your pro bono list.

  10. Posted by Hope to Have, and Soon - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 51 minutes ago

    Justin: I’m sorry that you went to a third tier school and took out over $150K in loans, but you should have done your homework.  Knowing that Tier 3 graduates struggle, at times, to find work, you didn’t HAVE to go to law school. 

    Does that mean that schools should charge less?  Probably not.  Most schools are profit centers, and are free to exploit demand for their services.  Likewise, qualified law students-whether qualified by the name on their diploma, or relevant bullets on their CV-should choose the job that’s right for them.

  11. Posted by BP - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 49 minutes ago

    poovie -

    All of this banter is silly.  Value of a law grad is a factor of market forces - nothing else.  No sense in whining about it.  I am a grad of Tier Three school and I have fought my way to where I am.  Do not get mad because you and I couldn’t get in to a better law school, go prove yourself to be the lawyer you think you are.  Money will follow.  Your whining is an indication the market just might have properly judged you.

  12. Posted by Trevor - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes ago

    Lets be honest, our profession is marred by a meaningless ancient hierarchy and that’s life. Except in uncommon circumstances, the nobility of the top 10 and the knights of T1 largely do not care for or respect the surfs and peasants of T2-4. For whatever reason, maybe just way to retain power at the top, there is the impression that a Harvard grad is a better lawyer that anybody else. This is not true; I’ve known some of these elite grads and I have seen them at work while I was working for a judge (needless to say, without looking at their profiles I could not tell their quality of work apart from a T4er.) On average the only discernible difference I see between the so called legal nobility and legal peasants is the fact the former either aced an abstract test (LSAT) or had inside help that allowed them to get in. However, that difference, even without the subsequent legal ability, means everything to the profession.

  13. Posted by MIckey - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Poovie sounds like another REPUBLICAN!  Why not just that these lawyers are whining because they are from a A NATION OF WHINERS?

  14. Posted by Inexperience hurts - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 16 minutes ago

    “Taught these qualities.“

    Take this from an evening law student going into his final year who is a management consultant by day—these qualities do not exist based on GPA or anything else.  They’re experiential qualities, and large firms should look more towards experienced students, rather than people that took the path to law school directly from undergrad.  Lets face it, that first job out is an adjustment, and turnover is always high.  The first job is where people learn basic professional skills and behavior, let alone the bigger picture items that the author of that paper postulates “can be taught.“

    On average, people with no professional experience, regardless of whether or not they’re at the top of their HYS class, are not worth the money they’re being paid.

    I’ll put on my flame suit for the beating I’m probably going to take from, well, the group I just described.  I think I’m okay with that because I’m professionally past the “my law school is better than yours, good luck finding a job” phase.  That, and I already have a career path that I’m happy and comfortable working toward.

  15. Posted by Ronnie - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 6 minutes ago

    I LOVE these posts!  Nothing brightens my Friday morning better.  I love the “I love equality” comments from Justin—boy didn’t I get that in law school.  “Well, the only reason you got into a T14 like this was because you’re black AND a woman.  And you’ll have an easier time getting a job too because of it.“ SPARE ME!  I don’t know the grades or qualifications of every non-minority, nor do I care.  We’re here now, let’s do our best.  I worked my tail off in law school; had a couple of deaths in the family—life happens.  So maybe my grades were only B+ and not A- (which was true), but it made a world of difference in getting that high-end job.  I owe $200,000 in law school debt, and have no qualms about it, because I knew what I was getting into from jumpstreet.  It gets paid monthly; I make $80k doing domestic, and I’m silly happy in my job.  To each his own. Happy Friday everyone!!

  16. Posted by BC - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 4 minutes ago

    Iwent to a bottom ranked law school, and my loans are $150,000.  I knew that paying off those loans would be difficult unless I graduated in the Top of the class.  I didn’t.  And after the first year, I almost dropped out based on a cost-benefit analysis.  But, I stayed in, tried to get my grades up so that I would fit into the Cravath model eventually, and faced the reality that I, like most other law grads, will be paying off my loans for years.  Will I ever be wanted by big law…who knows.  Do I want the Cravath model to implode…debatable.  I think I am capable of doing the work at big law, the money would come in handy, .  At the same time, though, big clients want the best and the brightest that they can afford, and without the client backing, the firms would lose money, and they wouldn’t be able to pay as much.

  17. Posted by Justin - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 3 minutes ago

    Hope to Have…,
    Well, just so you know, as an undergrad I worked two part time jobs, always took the most classes allowed, and took summer school every summer so I could graduate on time.  As a law student I’m volunteering at the U.S. Attorney’s office, helping to keep crack and coke and meth dealers in prison, and substitute teaching at inner city high schools.  Oh, and by the way, I’ve never made more than 7.50 an hour in my life.  I feel for your mother, its a tough life out there, and its my sincere hope that I’m never put in a situation to raise kids on a single parent income.  My goal is to be a prosecutor, it doesn’t get much more pro-bono than that.  Prosecutors, despite some of the liberals’ groaning, keep the bad guys off the streets so that maybe people like your mother can get through life without being accosted or worse.

  18. Posted by Jonathon - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 52 minutes ago

    Been practicing for 40 years now in both large and small firms. What matters for getting a job, in order of importance:

    1.  Who you know (I don’t care if you are number one at Harvard, we are hiring the relative or that partners friends children). Anyone can be trained, it just matters how good the firm trains its associates.
    2.  After who you know, comes grades. The threshold is a 3.0, below that, it’s going to be tough, no matter where you graduated. Adding to the +3.0, you need to be on law review. No one cares about Moot Court, unless you are doing some small criminal law work. But I always tell law students to do something they are passionate about, so if that’s moot court, so be it.
    3.  The school you went to. For large firms, if you are outside the top 10 law schools (T14 is meaningless, it’s T10, after 10, you are with everyone else) and if you are not in the top 10% at all other schools, then it’s going to be tough to get a big firm job. Even with a 3.0 and law review, you need to have a strong contact or forget it.

    -So this has been my experience from working in the legal field for quite a while, probably too long at this point. There are plenty of legal jobs out there if you are willing to work at a firm that may be on the bottom of your list. You can always move up, and let me tell you what beats all those three items I listed above, Bringing in Business! If you bring in business, you won’t have to worry about anything.

  19. Posted by the lobby - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 49 minutes ago

    I agree with Inexperience hurts.  I spent my first year of law school at a top 20 major university in a small town.  I had exceptionally smart and motivated classmates, but I hated every minute of it because it was all study and no real experience.  There was nowhere to get experience.  The professors were all pure academics who hadn’t actually practiced for years.  I transferred to a lower private T1 in a big city and instantly felt more comfortable.  My new classmates were just as smart and motivated, yet they wondered why I would give up a spot at the old school for a spot at the new school.  It was simply for the practical experience.  I had plenty of “academic” professors but also adjunct professors who were partners from large firms and associates from small firms, etc.  I clerked at five different places in two years, often at the same time.  I did manage to find some time to study, but it was the experience that meant the most.

  20. Posted by plenty of practice - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 48 minutes ago

    The real problem of the cravath model is that every year the big firms hire a bunch of kids, then they work them to death for about five years until they burn out, then the majority are denied partnership track, and then they never find work that pays as well as they made at the beginning of their career.
    i

  21. Posted by S.M. - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 46 minutes ago

    Justin,

    I’m a Mexican-American woman that got into UT-Law.  I had a great LSAT score and great honors undergraduate work at UT-Austin.  I was earning $11 an hour as a law clerk runner back in 1999 as an undergrad at UT.  I didn’t have to load up on classes to graduate in time. Was undergrad that tough for you? If it was, then you would not have made it at UT Law.

  22. Posted by HT - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 46 minutes ago

    There is a lot of whining on this page.  I went to a law school (definately not a top law school) and graduated in top 3 in the class almost two years ago.  I did not take any loans out to go to this law school and would not have went if I needed to   I have been at the high end of the salary scale since day 1 and really have a very hard time understanding why someone would take out $150k (if they are going to complain about it) in loans to graduate low in the class.  You might have wanted to do your homework before you went to such a law school and probably cut you losses when it became apparent you would not be top of the class.  However, at the same time I have many friends that were in the bottom of my class and within a year got their shit together and are paid now a little less than me.  These guys started out lower but worked hard and got a niche and moved up fast and never worked a day in law school.  Probably because they did not sit around crying about not making $120k a year.  The high associate salaries are definately necessary with the increase in gas prices and the fact that filling up my Ferrari up with gas is about a $100 a tank now.  I think there are a lot of communists on this thread as it sounds like people think there should be equality in the pay scale.  Maybe these people should relocate to Venezula, China or Cuba as I here there is a lot of equality in the lawyer salaries in those countries.

  23. Posted by Jonathon - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 43 minutes ago

    And one other thing to add to that list above, yes, is experience. Please go to a school that offers a co-op program. It would be nice to hire a grad with that additional experience for once.

  24. Posted by porp - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 31 minutes ago

    Justin needs to get over the racist chip on his shoulder.  Should fit in well in the Bush justice department though.

  25. Posted by Inexperience hurts - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes ago

    Jonathon, if you’re looking to hire experience, look at evening programs.  Most of those students have all day to get experience, usually broken into two groups.  The first didn’t really have much of a career when they started law school, so they might have quit and have done a series of clerkships or other law-related jobs.  The others came in with careers and are probably still moving up where they are, while completing their studies at the same time.

    The former will have direct experience, the latter mostly indirect, but generally demonstrate success in their current profession.

    The biggest thing for them, if I have anything in common with my evening classmates, is that we’re looking for a seasoned environment when we graduate, which makes our current fields attractive.  Making the jump to a big law firm means being given typical first year tasks which are generally designed with the immature, never-had-a-job first year in mind.

    Law school is challenging and will ultimately be very rewarding for me in many ways, but I’m personally hesitant to jump into an environment where I’m challenged less than I am in my current professional life (regardless of whether I’m putting in more hours, time does not necessarily equate to challenge).

  26. Posted by RICH SOB - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 24 minutes ago

    Any of you whiners want to was and wax my fleet of private jets? I do Personal Injury Law and got my law degree from a Cracker Jacks Box…if you work hard, it doesn’t matter where you went to school. Don’t balme others for your lack of drive. WAA WAAAA!!!!

    Give me a break!

  27. Posted by Michigan Law Grad - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago

    I don’t believe the Cravath model is going anywhere anytime soon at BigLaw.  When I interviewed at Cravath (NYC office), I recall the interviewing partner beaming when I told him I “chose” Cravath because it is America’s finest law firm.  I did not go on to work there but ended up at another BigLaw firm in L.A., and I had under a 3.0—but then again everyone at my school with a brain got into BigLaw.  Those years are past but I have to say for those of you who were not as fortunate as I was to attend a top tier school, if you cannot get a job, then do everything possible to open up your own shop after passing the bar.  You will struggle, but if you find a good mentor to associate yourself with (e.g., rent space from a well-established smaller firm), then you should do just fine in the long run (while picking up referrals).  It’s all about receiving sound legal training, period.

  28. Posted by Jonathon - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago

    inexperience hurts- I know exactly what you mean, where I am now, you would be given greater responsibility based on additional experience.

    However, some big firms will place those students with ones straight out of law school with hardly no legal experience. Seems odd to me.

    Remember everyone, a law degree will serve you will no matter what you decide to do. However, going into finance/ business, is probably more rewarding and less hours. I would never change my path, but people should know that you don’t have to be a lawyer, you could do quite a lot and your JD will look pretty good.

  29. Posted by Slyvanian Frog - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 17 minutes ago

    I know one person at a T5 who might be a better attorney than one person who went to Harvard.

    Therefore, it is clear that all of this hierarchy in law schools, etc. is meaningless.

  30. Posted by BP - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 17 minutes ago

    Goodness this is much ado about nothing.  If the Harvard grad is a bad lawyer, she/he will eventually lose their job.  It is not like big law hangs on to losers.  They have to set some kind of hiring criteria consistent with their client’s expectations.  If there ilk are not “scarce”, they would not fetch a premium rate and be able to pay high starting salaries.

    Great lawyers make rain.  Great lawyers make great money.  Great lawyers can work where ever they want.  I do not care where you go to law school, if you develop into a great lawyer with a great book of business you can go where ever you want, when ever you want.  If any of you are such hot stuff, prove it.  Create your own destiny rather that waiting around for some group of old lawyers at big law to crown you.

    If you can’t make rain or you are not a great lawyer, then get realistic about your lot in life. 

    Do not whine because you are now a victim of your own unrealistic expectations. 

    I

  31. Posted by Inexperience Hurts - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 16 minutes ago

    Jonathon—I think your overall message is absolutely correct, people should do what they’re passionate about doing and would actually enjoy.  After all, we’re going to spend a lot of our time doing these things, right?

    Good to hear that some places are recognizing background experience and actually using it.  I’m open to a position like that and realize that there’s going to be some “starting over” involved, but my biggest fear is that I take the bait and walk into an environment that is actually no different for me than if I went to law school right out of undergrad.

    I’m not hell-bent on Big Law as much as I’m not hell-bent on staying in management consulting.  If I had to shamelessly ask for your experience here, are bigger or smaller firms my better bet given what I’ve described?

  32. Posted by Anne - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 15 minutes ago

    Isn’t it funny how Average Joe immediately got under people’s skins?  There’s hope for us out there. I would be worried if the follow-up comments agreed with Average Joe.

    Average Joe, and others like him, learn from many of the comments after your entry because they are all drenched in reality. There’s no “right” to a high salary just because you are a lawyer, just as true is that there is no best way to practice law. It’s a diverse profession with the same complexities that exist in other professions. I think that lawyers focus on themselves too much, particularly where they went to school. The longer you practice, the less the early years mean and the more your reputation matters.

  33. Posted by Jim - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 7 minutes ago

    poovie - you can’t spell either.  It’s certainly, not “certianly”

  34. Posted by Eric - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 5 minutes ago

    Again, this article demonstrates the ABA’s emphasis on big corporate law firms and the whining of sell-out associates. I went to a good Midwestern state law school, graduated in the top third of my class,  had about $40K in loans (15 years ago), and had no assistance other than my own employment.  I’ve spent most of my career practicing public interest law or union side labor law-not huge $, but i’m certainly comfortable. My viewpoint about salaries and practicing law still hasn’t changed since law school-you choose your job, your profession, and the law you want to practice. If you fail to consider the consequences prior to that choice (high salary, high debt, and no life), shame on you. There are other ways to do law school and other avenues to choose to graduate without an astronomical debt burden-which I believe represents the majority of my law school class, and the majority of practicing attorneys. ABA-it would be nice to see a change of focus to this majority.

  35. Posted by Jonathon - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours ago

    I think you are in an interesting situation that can work very well for you.

    You will probably have more luck in entering at a more “experienced level” at a larger firm or as in house counsel for a consulting co, corp…

    The trick is, you need to find a firm that needs your experience. They are out there as well.

    For example, if your consulting overlaps with a specialized litigation that the firm does, then you may be able to squeeze yourself in there. I would suggest researching firms that have practice areas which overlap your past consulting experience. From there, essentially sell and market yourself to the firm like you would for any other job.

    If you can demonstrate how your experience will be an asset, then you will be all set. I know, easier said than done, but isn’t that the way it is for everything.

    good luck

  36. Posted by not so bad - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 57 minutes ago

    Law school was easy compared to engineering school, working, the lives of my neighbors, etc.  While in LS I could go biking, play hoops, drink all night, skip class and generally do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, except for exam time (actually, I skipped a mid-term to go to Europe on a cheap fare).  I did a cost-benefit analysis before going to LS and figure it would be about 10 yrs before I broke even - ended up being 12 years.  Now it’s all good.  Stop your whinning.

  37. Posted by Dan - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 56 minutes ago

    I’ll never understand this “biglaw” mentality…  Why would I go to a school that’s going to give me $150,000 or above in loans, so i can work for a firm that will burn me out in a few years doing a job I hate?

    I went to a T2 school.  I have less than $60K in law loans (plus another $10K from undergrad), because my school was… OMG… Reasonably priced!!!  My school didn’t have class rank, so I don’t know what mine was.  It also didn’t have GPA, so I can’t tell you what that was, either.

    What I can tell you is that the school places a heavy emphasis on community service and practical experience.  People in our clinics are closing multi-million dollar real estate deals for charities sitting across the table from partners at big law firms.  Not only does serving the community get us experience and a good feeling, it puts us right in front of the people we want to work for, and like several people have said, it’s having the contact that gets you in.

    I now have a job with a good firm in the city I’ve lived in for 10 years, I can support my family, I’m home for dinner, and I have free time to do what I want.

    The Cravath model works because there are law students—- most of whom have never had a real job in their lives—- who think that money is everything.

  38. Posted by associate - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Eric,

    While I appreciate your point about taking “the slow road” with a cheaper, lower ranked school and working in small firms where you can have a life, you’re dead wrong on everything.  You graduated 15 years ago.  Law school was dirt cheap.  I graduated 3 years ago from one of the least expensive state schools around.  My tuition started at 12k and more than doubled by the time I had finished.  And that school was still the cheapest around.  What part time job are you going to get around law school where you can make over 20k/yr?  Debt is now part of being a lawyer.

  39. Posted by poovie - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 33 minutes ago

    PK,
    You got me all wrong. I graduated from a top tier east coast law school. I make more than I deserve. I was just commenting on the sweet little pompous and clueless “not your average Jerk” Oh. . . I mean Joe.  Oh, and I am most certainly NOT a republican

  40. Posted by bezo - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 23 minutes ago

    I enjoy reading these posts and laugh out loud at many of you.  I have now spent 20 years in the practice of law—first as a partner at an AMLaw 100 firm and now, more importantly, as a client.  Here is what really counts—can you get me the results I want in a cost efficient manner.  If so, I will come back to you.  If not, I won’t use you again.  As for the Cravath model, I will not hire new associates at $300 or more (I am in Houston so we have these price levels) or really anything under a 5 year associate for those rates because they are not worth the cost.  I can hire outstanding trial partners all day at $350 per hour who can deliver results.  Big Law is pricing themselves out of the market and will be in a dire situation as more companies wake up and decide not to pay these prices anymore (unless—I have a bet the company case and need to CYA and hire the top firm).

  41. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 7 minutes ago

    I just graduated in May from a law school ranked in the 50’s. I might be called a “have-not” graduate. But I don’t see it that way.

    Yes, I’m $180,000 in debt from college + law school—even though I went to the University of Michigan for college and paid in-state tuition. And no, I don’t have a job. Sadly, I was even on a journal and had second interviews at a couple major firms. But I missed out. Oh well.

    That said, I don’t regret law school. My debt might seem huge, and my starting salary will probably be pretty small. But in the long run, I am quite certain that I’ll be better off economically than I could have been had I simply earned a B.A.—even from the University of Michigan. I figure that if I can start at $50,000, I can probably reach $100,000 within 5 years. And maybe $150,000 within ten years. If I can work for 20 years making even $150,000, that will likely be far more than I could ever make with a B.A.

    Sure, I could be ruminating for the rest of my life about what could have been. I could endlessly think about the negative—about how I came so close to earning three times what I will end up making in my first year. But that wouldn’t be productive. And I would forget that my law degree is still worth it.

    One last thought. I’ve thought about the fact that even if I don’t end up practicing law at all (e.g., if I were to fail the bar), I still firmly believe my law degree was worth the time and money. Not only have I learned a hell of a lot, and become a more precise and critical thinker, but let’s not forget that most non-lawyers are pretty impressed by a law degree. Even in NYC, where I live, and even from a law school ranked in the 50’s, this will still be true.

    The bottom line is that if I’m able to take a step back and stop comparing myself to the “haves”—even though it’s hard sometimes, especially b/c I almost gained membership myself—I can see that I’m in a pretty good position.

  42. Posted by RES - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 3 minutes ago

    Unfortunately-or fortunately- the Cravath model is accurate. Students who go to the top ten law schools-even those who finish in the bottom quarter-are simply better lawyers in the long run. Last year, I went back to my class reuinion at Michigan Law School and after 30 years out what most impressed me was how well virtually all of my classmates had done in various areas of the practice-not just BigLaw. (As an aside, this was equally true for my classmates who were women and minorities)  I fervently believe, after over 30 years in the legal trenches, that recruiters are better off recruiting someone from the bottom of the class at a top tier law school than someone at the top of a second or third tier school.

  43. Posted by Bill - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 59 minutes ago

    Hey RES, did you ever stop to consider that maybe all of your classmates, even the ones who only managed to finish in the bottom 10% of their class, are doing so well because they had so many opportunities given to them right out of the gate?

  44. Posted by Legal Eagle - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 58 minutes ago

    Nothing wrong with the Cravath model in our capitalist society.  Sure the profession suffers but that ship sailed long ago.  Do your part to tip the balance back to making law a respectable profession (read: quit whining on blog sites for starters) As a Black man from a tier 2 law school (with good grades and law review) who worked and succeeded at the top BigLawFirm in Chicago, I’m here to tell you that nothing will get you farther ahead than working hard and playing the “game” in this Cravath system.  When I left BigLaw to go in-house, I had enough money to pay off loans and reduce all debt to zero and then pursue my passion—practice in-house and coach soccer part-time at local HS.  Learn to play the game and try to retain a little dignity along the way.  And for goodness sake stop whining, you’re emabrrassing your albeit anonymous selves.

  45. Posted by Mat - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 54 minutes ago

    Porp,

    How is it racist for Justin to point out that he was displaced by minority students with lower numbers?  Please explain.

  46. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes ago

    RES—

    I agree generally that the top law firms are better off recruiting (any) graduates from, say, top ten law schools. Just getting into a top ten law school (especially these days) is an amazing achievement. It takes not only a great LSAT score, which indicates very high intelligence, but a great undergraduate record usually from a college that was itself quite hard to get into. So, I agree, generally.

    I think you’re sort of missing the point of the article, however. The point of the article isn’t to claim that firms like Cravath will ever begin to look at 2nd tier grads. Rather, it’s that there are a heck of a lot of lesser firms (say, the non-top-50 firms) that are finding it more and more unsustainable to pay what Cravath can and at the same time retain high per partner salaries. And I’m sure you can appreciate the fact that the lateral market is much different than it was even 15 years ago. Even Cravath now hires lateral partners—which it had literally never done before the ‘90s. The point is that lesser law firms can’t have it both ways. They can’t keep paying what the super-premium firms pay and keep per-partner earnings up enough to prevent their most valuable partners (those in the so-called “marquee practice areas”) from bolting to other firms. Hence, what the author here is discussing—which is that lesser firms focus on a slightly different business model.

  47. Posted by Anonymous - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 43 minutes ago

    Well good for YOU,  HT.  Some of us DON’T come from money & had no choice but to take loans.  In fact, I was nearly to the point of having to become a stripper/resort to crime just to pay school bills.  Most girls in my hometown married young & now have at least 1 child, often more.  They also have a rough time trying to care for them (most live w/their parents or in a trailer).  It would have been a waste of my time NOT to go to law school since I didn’t put in so much effort in high school & college grades to go right back to an area I hated.

    The Cravath model is so classist, I don’t even acknowledge those who live by it.  It reminds me of a clique of 7th graders who think they’re SOOOO cool b/c they have the most expensive clothes & biggest homes never mind that their PARENTS paid for it.  Unlike these little babies, I (who started as an evening student in her law school—inexperience hurts is right about me, I left a law firm to attend school far away) & plenty of others actually EARNED our way in instead of buying it w/our parents’ $ or status.  I also left the snobbery of the T1 crowd in middle school.  I never wanted a big firm job & have actually started forging my own way, even getting cases in areas your average new lawyer would never get.  I even got a partnership in an up & coming entertainment company, again something most of you newbies don’t get.  If you’re actually capable & go with your strengths, GPAs & your school mean nothing.  For instance, I & anyone not from $ will also be a far superior public interest lawyer b/c of actually LIVING in situations that clientele experience, hence getting far better rapport w/clients than a Harvard law grad for all his empathy.

    I think the first step is knowing what YOU want to do, figuring out how to get there (network w/others doing the same thing, convince others you want to work in that area regardless of the lowly position you’re applying for), finding that job that makes you happy & making the most of what you’re doing.  I started in my company as the CEO’s exec asst & still put in work to get us where we want to go.  I won’t say it’s easy but neither is life & I have no tolerance for those who whine & moan about their situation but do NOTHING about it and just accept the status quo.

  48. Posted by Shazam - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 31 minutes ago

    Hey Res,

    I’ve worked with and met recent Michigan Law grads. I can’t say I’ve been impressed at all.

    Recruiters are interested in getting hardworking drones willing to put in the hours so the partners can make more money. Getting a kid who graduated in the top of their class from a T2 or T3 school tells the recruiter that the candidate is a hard worker.

    On a side note: I think the “whiners” need to understand why they went to law school. Hopefully it was because they wanted to practice law. If you do something you love and work hard at it, the benefits will come. Sometimes people are better off when they don’t receive things on a silver platter. Just go out there and hustle and find a niche.

    For all the posters who seem to gave a sense of entitlement and lack of sympathy—I don’t know if there is anyway to respond to that level of immaturity. But, from reading the posts, it seems like we have a few bitter BigLaw burn outs.

  49. Posted by Shazam - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes ago

    Hey Mark,

    I had a high LSAT score and I would NOT say it is a sign or test of intelligence. It’s not an IQ test, it is a reading comprehension and logic test. That’s all.

  50. Posted by mid city lawyer - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes ago

    I’m a recent law grad practicing in what would be considered a small firm nationally, but is one of the “BigLaw” firms in my mid-sized city in the South. 

    What’s interesting to me is that much of the same (bitter) discussion reflected in the comments gets played out even here with firms like mine (who I’m sure Cravath would consider beneath their notice), which consist mostly of grads from our state’s T1 law school.  The T3 and T4 grads talk about how they have “real life experience” and aren’t just “academic” lawyers and, for some of them-particularly older people embarking on second careers- it’s true.  But for a lot of the “kids” graduating from these places, especially from the bottom half of their class,  there is a real, marked difference in the quality of their legal work.  It’s not even a question of intelligence or legal acumen so much as it is one of ambition, drive, and the accompanying perfectionism that motivates a person to get into a T1 law school in the first place.  So yes, it makes a difference, and if you think it doesn’t…well, maybe this isn’t the career for you.

  51. Posted by Retired Partner - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 24 minutes ago

    As long as the perception exists that grads of top-tier law schools are “better” than those of lower ranked schools, and as long as there is a grading system (or equivalent) in law schools, the largest law firms will always use some variation of the Cravath model. I do see two “twists” in the model from when I began practicing some 35 years ago. For example, In Boston, the large firms that used to hire only from Harvard and Yale are being forced, both by the larger numbers of associates they are hiring (75-100 as opposed to 5-10) and the greater number of law firms in competition with them, to hire from a broader array of schools, including what some people would call second-tier schools but which I see on a par with the Tier 1 schools except for name.  Also, if you are hiring 75-100 law grads, over the course of a couple of years you can “weed” out associates who may be “the best and the brightest” but have no social skills.  As much as one may wish for the Henderson system, unless there is a sea change in how firms operate, the Cravath model will live on for a long, long time.

  52. Posted by anon - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 18 minutes ago

    Isn’t it true that to be accepted at the first tier of law schools you have to have almost straight A’s as an undergrad in addition to the test scores.  Anyone who gets straight A’s for years and years is a conformer who won’t question authority.  The kind of person who won’t question sub-prime mortgage backed securities, for instance.

  53. Posted by henry - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 16 minutes ago

    Shazam is correct. Didn’t even know if I wanted to go to Law School. Frankly didn’t care. Took the Lsat’s after a night partying. Did amazing. Let’s just call it what it was, luck. Just got lucky, don’t know what would happen again. But by no means is the LSAT a test of intelligence. However, if you do well on it, it can generally be said that you are somewhat bright. But I do not believe that works in the reverse. And for me, well, if you have a good lsat score, you can get into a top 25 even with a crappy gpa. Good luck to all, the system is flawed, we all know that, but no one has implemented a better one.

  54. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Retired Partner—

    I generally agree with your comments. However, in the largest markets—namely NYC—things are changing more rapidly than in other locales.

    For instance, it’s going to be pretty interesting to see how the large but non-elite NYC firms are going to respond if the top ten or so (e.g., Cravath; Sullivan & Cromwell) raise their starting salaries yet again. Right now, they’re at $165,000 + bonus.

    At some point, something has to give. I’m not saying that those other firms will move to a fundamentally different business model. But they may back off a lot from their traditional focus on hiring new attorneys. We already see an increased focus on the lateral market. But in the future, and especially in markets like NYC, there may come a point where we see a marked turn toward hiring laterals. Interestingly, this has already happened at many excellent smaller boutique firms, which often have policies of only hiring laterals. Many such firms that started in the ‘90s have actually never hired a new lawyer.

  55. Posted by Bill - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Mid City, while I agree that many students in 3rd and 4th tier schools lack the ambition and perfectionism of many students in 1st tiers, I can say that was accepted to a 1st, but went to a 3rd because they gave me a scholarship. There were other students who could get into any school they wanted (one got 99% on the LSAT), but chose not to move because they had roots in the city where the only law school was a 3rd, or because they had a working spouse who wouldn’t leave their job to relocate simply because jerkoff partners at “prestigious” firms don’t want to talk to someone who went to a 3rd tier. This is why the wole practice of BigLaw putting so much emphasis on school rank is absurd. Unfortunately, these firms are all smoke and mirrors, and could care less about any of their associates true abilities. All they care about is how they look on paper, so they can impress their clients with their associates’ bios.

  56. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours ago

    Henry & Shazam—

    I think you misunderstood. I didn’t say that a bad LSAT score was an indication of a “high IQ.“ I said that it was an indication of intelligence.

    To elaborate, what I mean is that it’s a good indication of a particular kind of intelligence. It primarily tests the types of logical,  analytical, and reading skills that are important for the practice of law. And so, it’s a good sign for a legal employer.

    That’s not to say that someone who didn’t ace the LSAT is any less intelligent in those areas. I’ll grant that there is a degree of chance in everything. But still, a high LSAT score is one indication.

    Nonetheless, there are people who are highly intelligent, and who likely would score very highly on a traditional IQ test, who wouldn’t necessarily ace the LSAT. This is undoubtedly true. But then, a traditional IQ test is itself only really a test of a certain type of intelligence. For instance, even though a person might score a 150 on a traditional IQ test, that person might be entirely unsuccessful in a career by being a little bit anti-social. You see what I mean?

  57. Posted by Dave - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 8 hours, 39 minutes ago

    Anyone who thinks project finance is a low end practice has bad information.  It is one of the more profitable practices at many of the best firms.

  58. Posted by Anonymous - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 8 hours, 36 minutes ago

    My story is different than those I have read in this post.  I was accepted into the top 20-30 ranked law schools, but decided to go to a T2 law school on a full ride.  I graduated in the top 25%, participated in moot court, and have landed a position at one of the top firms in NYC.  The decision was a risk, considering the percentage of students at T2 schools getting offers at big firms is significantly limited.  However, in my case, it worked out – with zero debt and big firm pay.  If you are at a T2 school, you have to work twice as hard to get noticed and must be outstanding on interviews.  Otherwise, you will face difficulty finding a position.

    Good luck.

  59. Posted by For Diversity Of All Types - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 8 hours, 29 minutes ago

    JUSTIN! You cannot blame minority students for not getting in to law school at Texas. Law school is super competitive and schools are not giving away “your slot” in favor of less qualified candidates. Im minority and I resent that. I worked super hard to get in law school and I work super hard to stay in the top 15% at my school. You know why? Because I have to prove to butt holes like you that Im smart, talented, and that I deserve to be a lawyer. I’ve earned my place. Hopefully, the US Atty will not hire an ass like you.

  60. Posted by Mat - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes ago

    Anonymous -

    Everthing you said is true.  I come from a family of “have-nots” as well.  You sound a bit bitter, but people like us have a right to be, especially when the “Haves” try to throw it into our faces and argue that they somehow merit the breaks they got in life instead of just chalking it up to luck and running with it. 

    Something that should give you solace is that while “haves” may or may not have worked with what they got, “have-nots” generally have encountered far more adversity, and are stronger for it. 

    Many “haves” are soft, and tend to wilt.  “Have-nots” tend to be stronger b/c of the adversity we have overcome.  Adversity of a kind that “Haves” have never experienced.  Have-nots also know a pride “Haves” can never feel.

  61. Posted by For Diversity Of All Types - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 8 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Mat-

    I agree. When you are a “Have-Not” and you make-it to wherever you want to be (debt-free; BigLaw, private practice, in-house). You feel a sense of pride and accomplishment uknown by the people who did not bear the same burden you did. So for all who attend T2,3,4 law schools, when you taste success or beat the Cravath model, it will be sweeter than all those who never knew your struggle.

  62. Posted by HT - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes ago

    Post #46, are you hot????  You mentioned that you considered becoming a stripper to pay for law school bills.

  63. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 42 minutes ago

    And to add to this last comment—the chances of attaining this are probably better these days than at any time in recent history. Since even the best large firms are hiring laterals, it is theoretically possible to work your way from a medium-sized firm to a large firm as a lateral.

  64. Posted by Professor Ann Maryann - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes ago

    Diversity is right.  Nothing was handed to me.  I went to law school ten years ago, and I thought when I got out that I had made a terrible mistake because I had a lot of debt and I did not do very well at a second tier school.  I hated the initial jobs that I found, but gradually I gained experience and moved up and found a niche where I am now very happy, making very decent money and do not have to put in too many hours.  It took time and patience, but eventually I found that I am probably doing a lot better, and am happier, than if I had not gone to law school.

  65. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes ago

    By the way, when I said “last comment” I meant the one posted before HT’s comment ...

    I was not referring to anyone’s chances at attaining job as a stripper.

  66. Posted by 20 years in practice - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 34 minutes ago

    Remember, big firms are in big cities.  Don’t forget the rules for big firms don’t apply to the rest of the country.

    I worked in big cities at big firms for 10 years before moving away from all that crap. Now I’m on my own in a small town and loving it.

  67. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 27 minutes ago

    I think it’s worth noting the difference between Cravath and other large firms (even very good large firms).

    Even if you went to a top ten law school, you still typically have to make law review or be in the top of your class for Cravath to seriously consider you. You can’t expect to get an offer from Cravath if you’re in the bottom 50% from UVA, for instance.

    This matters because there’s a difference between a few (and I do literally mean a few) firms at the top of the pyramid and all the others in terms of partnership potential and per-partner earnings. There are only a few firms in the country that can compete with Cravath in either area.

    So, even if you get your degree from a top law school and get a job at a top firm, it’s likely that you won’t get a position at one of the few elite firms like Cravath. Moreover, it’s likely that this means your chances at ever making as much as the partners at the elite firms do (working as an attorney in a traditional wall-street-type firm, that is) are not great. And it’s likely that even though you’ll start out making $165,000, you’ll not make partner and have to move laterally to a smaller firm.

    My point is that while it may seem that there are “haves” and “have-nots,“ the truth is that even among the haves there’s a certain hierarchy. So you can either work with what you’ve got wherever you are in the great pyramid of the legal profession, or you can forever lament that you’re not on top. It’s too bad that I think most of us are so competitive that we’ll choose the latter.  It’s not a wise choice for mental health.

  68. Posted by steve - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 26 minutes ago

    I agree there isn’t too much difference between the tiers in the quality of lawyer.  I went to a T4 school first year and a top ten my last two years.  I graduated magna cum laude.  I know there are a lot of better attorneys than me.  Some people really understand the working aspect of being a lawyer that I just don’t seem to get even though I did really well in law school.  I also know that legal reasoning-wise, the top students at T4 schools are just as good as the students in the top 50% at top ten schools.  There is a huge drop off after that point though and as an employer I would avoid students from some schools so I didn’t get one with lower reasoning skills.  I would be willing to pay more for a student from a top ten school just because I know they have been rooted out for their reasoning skills.

  69. Posted by Trevor - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 21 minutes ago

    To say that the name of your school is much less important that your ability is, to use a legal term, “hog wash” (look it up in Black’s). Just ask a transfer student about the importance of a name. After 1L year, a good buddy of mine tranfered to a top 10 school. I, despite having similar grades and much better incoming credentials decided to stay at our T2 school. He had big firm jobs thrown at him. I on the other hand managed to secure 3 interviews, one because I met a partner at a party and he thought I was funny. I’m not complaining- I eventually obtained my 2nd choice. However, had I known that people would bend over backwards because of the name on my degree and not my ability, I would have joined my buddy and transfered.

  70. Posted by john - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 16 minutes ago

    RES-
    Did you consider that that maybe ALL of your Michigan Law classmates weren’t there?  Turnout for such things, especially for a national law school like MLS is usually low.  Also, did you consider that people who aren’t so successful don’t usually show up to these things either…  I don’t think your little case study holds up.

  71. Posted by john - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 5 minutes ago

    Mat:
    Porp,
    “How is it racist for Justin to point out that he was displaced by minority students with lower numbers?  Please explain.“
    Mat,
    Let ME explain.  Schools don’t share individual students’ qualifications, so how would Justin KNOW that he got displaced by less qualified minority students, unless he’s making a general assertion that any minority student that got in was less qualified than him.  The only other way would be that the school is 100% minority, in which case, chances would be that someone would have gotten in with lower credentials than him AND he or she would be a minority.  And if somehow, Justin does KNOW that a minority with lower numbers got in and not him, perhaps that person was just more interesting.  By insinuating that a minority MUST have worse credentials than him to have gotten into the school or got in simply because he was a minority, Justin is being racist.

  72. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes ago

    Trevor—

    Who is saying that your school is much less important than your ability? I don’t think anyone’s saying that. At least to the extent that it matters to get your first job. It seems like we’re all in agreement that what school you go to is critical in getting your first job. And the article seems to agree with that, as well.

    Where we might disagree is to what extent your school will itself determine the course of your career —maybe 10 or 20 years down the line.

  73. Posted by strawman - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes ago

    The entire article sets up the classic strawman, designed to produce reactions like the one’s in the commentary section.  The “Cravath Model” is relevant to so few that it cannot possible be considered significant. 

    It is like saying the “private jet” model of transportation is in danger.  Really?  It is?  My God, something must be done!  It has no effect on 99% of the flying population, much like the “Cravath Model” has no effect on 99% of the population.  So who cares?

  74. Posted by RES - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 51 minutes ago

    John- In response to your question about my Michigan Law School Reunion, I was also on the fundraising committee and we contacted virtually everyone in the class. With few exceptions-one classmate inherited more money than God and quit the practice years ago- they were almost uniformly successful in their chosen fields-including those who failed to return for the reuinion. In my experience, the top tier law schools often suffer from admitting frustrated Academics- who frequently become Liberal Arts professors. However, on the whole,  those who want to practice or teach law-regardless of their class rank- tend to do very well by any standard.

  75. Posted by steve - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Where Cravath system goes wrong:

    The biggest problem I see with the system is the emphasis on the 2L summer.  That means your hiring is based on your 1L grades.  I transferred to Michigan and was shocked at how lazy the students were.  I expected a lot of competition, but found it easy to do well because no one seemed to care anymore.  They already were set just based on their first year.

    My experience was different - As a transfer student I was able to do the early interview week.  I had one interview, with Lane Powell in Seattle (not a Cravath by any stretch of the imagination) especially that I escaped my foot in the mouth disease.  I didn’t gear back from them for a call back interview.  I called and asked what I could do in the future to be more employable.  They told me they just didn’t know how to guage the grades from the T4 school from which I transferred, so they chose to to not call me back.  After getting a 3.9 my first semester at Michigan, I nearly sent my resume with a big F You on it to them, but figured I shouldn’t burn bridges.  I then tried interviewing with them the next year.  They told me they don’t hire 3L’s.  I suggested I would be willing to just work during the summer like a 2L, but they wouldn’t go for it.  That firm missed out on me (which in retrospect was probably a good call by them) because they couldn’t get past that I went to a 4T school.  Credential wise I could have ended up at any of the big firms and Lane Powell chose to not take me just based on that.

  76. Posted by Have Not - Became a Have - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 37 minutes ago

    I was accepted to the best T1 law schools in the 1970’s, but chose to go to a less expensive T2 state school.  The first reason was value.  I came from a working class family, and had to pay every dime of my own college and law.  The second reason is that I didn’t fit in to the socio-economic and ethnic mix of a 1970’s Big Law firm.  The third is that I was interested in public interest law.

    After law school, I couldn’t get a job at a big law firm, although I was on law review and top 15% of my class, despite working part-time and volunteering.  I didn’t make much money for 10 years, and took that long to pay off debt.  I could have whined about Big Law’s senseless prejudice against T2 schools.  (But I had the choice of working for a few years to save the money to go a T1 school, or borrowing more.)

    I developed a niche specialty. Ironically, I now work at Big Law, and am sought after by others, and make great money.

    One has choices.  When I graduated 30 years ago, upward mobility was more limited than today, by anti-competitive practices (e.g. bar advertising limits), and bigotry (sexism, racism, ethnocentrism), but even then there were many paths.

    The market place is taking care of the “Cravath” model.  Clients hire different firms for different purposes, which is the point the article makes, although inartfully.  There are at least three different sub-species of of Big Law now, and they pay new associates on somewhat different scales.

    You don’t have to go to a T1 law school or work in Big Law to make great money.  And making great money isn’t the ultimate goal anyway.  In retrospect I am glad I skipped the associate grind at Big Law, allowing me to be a more active parent and to build the foundation for a successful marriage of over 30 years.

  77. Posted by Michigan Law Grad - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 31 minutes ago

    Steve and Mark,

    You are both right about several things.  Steve, I truly sympathize with your situation and it is very unfortunate.  I landed a “first year” summer associate position at one of Chicago’s largest law firms at the end of the first semester of my first year (during winter break) and before grades had even come out!  Then during interview season in my second year, and after my first year’s grades had come out (under 3.0), I got six offers at other BigLaw firms for the second summer.  It was a crazy time of flying all over the place interviewing and I remember racking up thousands in frequent flyer miles—all at the firms’ expense.  I think part of the reason I got several job offers was due to my school’s name alone, but other factors too, including my ability to socialize well (I took a few years off after undergrad), I stay in good physical shape and basically fit in and “looked the part.“  Mark, I did notice that until the grades came out, many of the more nerdy 1Ls had difficulty landing a first year summer associate position.  After grades came out, however, and since mine weren’t that stellar, I had to settle for 2nd tier BigLaw firms (still paid market), but not Cravath or other “top tier” firms, as you are correct that those firms still want top quarter of the class, regardless of school.

  78. Posted by john - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 2 minutes ago

    RES-
    Fair enough. Can’t argue with that.  And I think you’re right, I should’ve been a liberal arts professor!  Oh well…

  79. Posted by Mark - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 5 hours, 40 minutes ago

    Michigan Law Grad—

    It’s interesting that you mention the “nerdy” 1Ls having difficulty w/ first-year positions b/c that underscores the difficulty of getting a position at a place like Cravath, and demonstrates how many variables go into such a hiring decision.

    When I was at the University of Michigan as an undergrad, I had a good friend who was an actuarial mathematics major. He had much, much better grades than me—something like a 3.9 GPA. Needless to say, he was offered a lot of interviews at consulting firms, actuaries being in fairily high demand. He flew all around the country, and alas, one offer. Now, you’d think you could afford (even expect) an actuary to be a little bit nerdy. And my friend wasn’t all that nerdy, but he was no man’s-man type either. In any case, the same lesson applies to most careers. To be at the top, you need more than great paper credentials.

    On the other hand, when I was at U of M, I also had a housemate who was a law student who was hired by Cravath. But he was extrememly well rounded. He was on law review, and so I assume he had good grades. He had a undergraduate degree from Stanford in Engineering. And he had incredibly good social skills. He always knew the right thing to say at the right time. The point is that a place like Cravath only hires the best. And it takes more than just grades.

  80. Posted by Mat - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes ago

    Hi John,

    I appreciate your thoughts.  But what if Justin knows several minority students that were accepted w/ worse numbers than he has?  I understand your argument that what set those kids apart was actually diverse life experience.  But at what point does diverse life experience become simply a proxy for racial/ethnic considerations?  Since race and ethnicity are permitted as a factor in the admissions process, at least some URM students with lower numbers are accepted in place of non-URM students with higher numbers.  How is it racist to point that out?  I could understand his bitterness if he had, let’s say a 170 and a 3.8, and several URMs there told him they were admitted with 165s and 3.5s.  I think anybody could.

  81. Posted by Michigan Law Grad - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 22 minutes ago

    Hi Mark,

    Your points are well taken.  Before the first semester grades came out, I overheard one of my classmates complaining that he noticed how the “attractive people” were landing more jobs at the firms and how it was not fair because grades were not yet posted.  But what he failed to disclose, after getting high marks and making law review, was that his daddy was a name partner at a law firm in NY, and that he basically was raised hearing his pop routinely explicate various legal theories while at the dinner table and otherwise give lessons on how to be a lawyer years before he took the LSAT.  In fact, several of the top law students had prior legal training either as paralegals, or, more often, parents who were successful attorneys.  That is commonplace at several of the top tier schools.  I also had a friend who had a 3.8 after his second year and, despite having gone to Chicago as an undergrad and being on law review, landed only one job and not at a BigLaw; do you know why? Because the idiot refused to wear a suit and tie at his on-campus interviews, and had a beard.  Your point is well taken that the best attorneys are those who are smart and also reflect their clients.  After all, whom would you want to represent you in court, some nerdy guy with poor social skills, or a more well-rounded person who can connect to a judge and jury and still knows how to Shepardize cases?

  82. Posted by J Edwards - 3 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours, 25 minutes ago

    Dang, life is rough!  I applied to the law school I wanted, and got in.  It was a Tier 4, I think, I don’t care.  I graduated, and am establishing MY OWN law firm in a town that is sorely underrepresented by attorneys (3000 pop, no attorney!)  You make of it what you will, and whining is merely entertainment for the rest of us (just as bragging about graduating from a top school is - like it matters to anyone but you!)

  83. Posted by kay sieverding - 3 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 14 minutes ago

    Professor Henderson, if I understand the article correctly, found that the best pay for lawyers at law firms doing “white-collar crime, securities enforcement, mergers and acquisitions, private equity, emerging markets and intellectual property”.
    A lawyer engaged in “regulatory compliance” may be addressing the exact facts, issues and laws but making less if he works for the SEC for instance instead of an underwriter or investment banker.
    There are potential reasons for the income discrepancy that have absolutely nothing to do with skills and knowledge. These reasons might also be correlated with the profile of potential whistle blowers. If a lawyer seems to be motivated by sincerity, he or she might be less willing to engage in some sort of cover-up of financial fraud. Recent economic events have shown that cover-up of financial fraud is profitable in the short term. Then the law of “Fraudodynamics” as coined by Barry Minkow, comes into play. For instance, in the WSJ and financial news today was coverage of lawsuits against municipal bond underwriters alleging that they took turns filing the lowest high bid and used illegal price setting.  According to Minkov, the longer the fraud goes on the harder it is to keep all the balls in the air. So the profitability model of hiring “non whistle blowers” who are compliant for bigger $, will hopefully be flawed in the long term.

  84. Posted by Melissa - 3 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 20 hours, 24 minutes ago

    Kay: the article didn’t say those practice areas pay the best. It said they were “the marquee practice areas.“ That is, they are areas where a lot of the non-elite large firms are losing partners to other better large firms. Basically, meaning those areas are the most in demand at the really top firms like Cravath. The selection of those practice areas really had nothing much to do with pay.

  85. Posted by Kay Sieverding - 3 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 19 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Melisssa

    When I used Google advanced search for “marquee practice area” no legal definition came up. There weren’t many references to the term at all except in auto racing.

    What areas of law in the last decade paid better than “doing “white-collar crime, securities enforcement, mergers and acquisitions, private equity, emerging markets and intellectual property”? 

    The large firms would have a huge demand if they offered discount quality criminal defense or probably discount quality contract law.  I don’t believe that the large firms pick their “marquee practice areas” for any other reason than pay. 
    My personal opinion is that money is all that matters to many of the partners of large law firms such as Faegre & Benson.

  86. Posted by kay sieverding - 3 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 40 minutes ago

    What does “implode” mean? what does it mean when I am declared a second class citizen?  What does it mean when without any rule 11 c. 6 orders, without a single finding that I misquoted a single case or law or wrote even a single sentence that is incorrect, I have no right to defend my property or may name and I can be thrown in jail without the involvement of a U.S. attorney?  I feel like imploding all right. I feel like exploding.  I am suppose to be protected by the 14th amendment which are suppose to be rights of the individuals. No one is supposed to have to tolerate the crimes that have been inflicted on me. If I had died in jail when i was sent there without a finding that I committed a crime or disrupted a hearing, Faegre & Benson partner Christopher Beall could have got the death penalty under U.S.C. Title 18 section 241

    Lawyers who are low paid I guess are low level nobility under the current judicial system. Someone like myself with an MIT masters degree and no criminal record never found to have defrauded a court has the lowest rights. To take my rights away no Rule 12 motion is needed. Judge Nottingham took my rights away and he won’t say why. What happened to the concept of absolute rights?

  87. Posted by kay sieveding - 3 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 54 minutes ago

    I am unbelievably angry at Faegre & Benson for taking my statutory rights from me. I would appreciate any advice on how to hold them accountable for their witness intimidation and witness retaliation.  The 8th Circuit emailed to me that their unwritten court policy is to deny their government funded mediation services to individuals even when they pay the $450.  Then, F&B filed a motion saying that the 8th Circuit should ignore my brief and dismiss on the sole basis that I am a second class person who doesn’t have statutory rights. And the 8th Circuit panel did that without finding a single flaw in what I filed or when I filed it.  No wonder people hate and despise judges and lawyers. They use the law just to feather their nests and don’t care if they violate other people’s rights or how much they hurt another person. The meanest of them are promoted to partner. No wonder the financial markets are failing, the criminals run the system.

  88. Posted by bewbz - 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 19 minutes ago

    lol @ all the TTT’s crying about how they are just as smart as t14 grads despite their 155 lsats and jobs at legal aid. PWNED!!

  89. Posted by anonymous - 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 54 minutes ago

    I read the WSJ every day and see where many attorneys are being charged related to various financial frauds.  Many of them are t14 grads.  Do you think that just because you went to one of those schools you have impunity?

    In order to get into t14 or t10, not only do you need the to have high LSAT’s but you also need to get almost straight A’s every single semester of college and to go to a college that requires you get almost straight A’s every single semester of high school.  People like that are brown nosers as teens as will do whatever they are paid for 10 years later. Independent thinkers don’t make straight A’s for 7 years no matter how smart they are.

  90. Posted by Dan - 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 28 minutes ago

    Nice comment bewbz… Hopefully biglaw hiring partners will read that and think about what kind of attitude they’re getting from t14 grads. 

    I went to a T2 despite having an LSAT in the 98th percentile and I did work in public interest during school, because it gave me real world experience (as opposed to getting coffee for some surly partner in biglaw) and the clients genuinely appreciated my help.

    I pride myself on working hard enough to always be smarter and better prepared than the person sitting across the table, and I don’t care where they went to law school.

  91. Posted by Susannah Sprague - 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes ago

    Law school was the first place I ever went where everybody was as smart as me!  Up until then, I thought I was pretty sharp stuff. Law school was a very leveling experience in that regard.  Naturally, things went easier for people who had money and connections.  Why wouldn’t they? The Ritalin made up for some of it, though.

  92. Posted by kay sieverding - 3 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 28 minutes ago

    Dear # 91

    What do you consider “smart”?  Ability to read fast, write in a polished manner, and debate based on a limited fact set?

  93. Posted by Kevin - 3 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago

    Law school is ultimately what you make of it.  I’m bummed at how expensive it’s turned out to be, and how grim my current job prospects are, but in the end, I made the decision to go and I probably could have studied harder.  I wouldn’t have lasted at a big firm anyway.  Though the money would have been nice, I kind of enjoy being home with my family in the evenings and I have interests other than work.  Which is also probably why I am in the middle of the pack grade-wise at law school…  oh well.  I can’t stand yuppies anyway.

    Cheers!

  94. Posted by Kevin - 3 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 56 minutes ago

    “I also had a friend who had a 3.8 after his second year and, despite having gone to Chicago as an undergrad and being on law review, landed only one job and not at a BigLaw; do you know why? Because the idiot refused to wear a suit and tie at his on-campus interviews, and had a beard”

    I missed this the first time around.  AWESOME.

  95. Posted by Retired Partner - 3 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 22 minutes ago

    Last fall, my son applied to 8 law schools, each of which was in the top 10 of the US News rankings.  When I asked him what his “safety” school was, he said he had none—if he didn’t get into a school of his choice, he would not pursue a legal career.  Is that elitist?  Or realistic?

  96. Posted by havenot-have2 - 3 months, 3 weeks, 1 day, 2 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Dear Retired Partner:
    Elitist.  He evidently does not want to practice law but to MAKE MONEY.

    The rest of you: I went to a Tier 2 school, worked my way into a BigLaw after 13 years by being the best opposing counsel I could be, who was offered a partnership by BigLaw on the other side of the deal after the small firm I was with cratered. I never would have made it right out of law school based on grades (worked days, law school night, battering ex-husband all deterred me from A grades) -  a point I tried to make when I was on the recruiting committee.  I’m now a general counsel for a publicly traded company. Took longer, but I am successful anyway.

  97. Posted by Debbie Lou - 3 months, 3 weeks, 17 hours, 54 minutes ago

    HAHAHAHAHA!  You all (well, the VAST Majority) sound just like a bunch of Money Grubbing Lawyers!  As with any profession, if you are there JUST to make money you will eventually be disappointed, if you are there because you love it and would do it for free anyway you will eventually be successful.
    I’m a 1L and do not plan on even interviewing with BigLaw as they sound positively stodgy, my lips refuse to “pucker up”, and I KNOW I want to captain my own ship…after the next two years all I’ll have to say is “BigLaw beware!“

  98. Posted by Angry Grad - 3 months, 3 weeks, 9 hours, 18 minutes ago

    I graduated 3.0+ in a top 40 school in May 07.  I have yet to find full time employment.  I’m contracting to gain experience.  Career services is no help.  The market blows.  The hierarchical BS of our profession blows.  The ABA accrediting marginal schools blows.  The numbers in terms of diveresity blow (TS on the UT blowoff, if you’re white you’ll have a job as an associate, the rest of us are destined for staff attorneys)...

    The profession HAS to change.  Our legal and political systems HAVE to change.  Our society IS about to change.

  99. Posted by J - 3 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours ago

    People either save and work hard to pay cash for law school, or they go into debt. Your choice. I owe $70K. not too unreasonable. I could have taken less, but that was my choice. I don’t whine about it daily. My school waffles between tier 2 and 3 yearly. I have a decent job, $60K with bonuses and annual raises based on hours billed. That’s in Michigan. Each person chooses their own paths. Had I worked harder and gotten above a 3.1, which is what I got in law school, I would make more money. But I had an active social life so I got a 3.1 and a pretty good job. I don’t get why people whine about their own choices not turning out the way they dreamed.

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