Fewer Law Firm Options for New Grads?

Careers

Posted Feb 4, 2008, 03:25 pm CDT
By Martha Neil

Some say they couldn't find law firm jobs. Others say they didn't want to.

But the bottom line for a small fraction of the nation's newly minted law school graduates is a nontraditional business job that has only a peripheral connection, at best, to practicing law, reports the Recorder (sub. req.) in an article reprinted by New York Lawyer (reg.req.).

Some 15 percent of all graduates accept a business job, according to NALP statistics, although this includes those who take in-house counsel positions as well as those who do something entirely different.

One who pursued this nontraditional career path out of necessity is Jason Luros, a 2007 graduate of Golden Gate University School of Law. Although he was in the top 20 percent of his class and had several legal internships on his resumé, he discovered what the legal publication describes as a "feeble job market" awaiting him. Small law firms of five to 30 attorneys interviewed him, but had no openings, he recounts. "All the opportunities that I heard about required active bar membership and a lot of experience."

Luros is now working as a financial planner, and says he hopes eventually to make a salary equivalent to what a big-firm lawyer gets.

Some experts disagree, but Jeffrey Brand, dean of the University of San Francisco School of Law, says Luros' experience may be the start of a bigger trend—at least for students graduating from law schools that aren't among the nation's most elite. Because of economic factors, he says, a number of law firms are scaling back job offers to new graduates.

Alumni report that even large national firms increasingly are looking to hire experienced attorneys, rather than new graduates, either as lateral associates or on a contract basis, Brand says.

For those who can command a big-firm job paying up to $160,000 or even a bit more, though, pursuing a nontraditional career can be a choice rather than a necessity.

Rachel Knight, for instance, says money wasn't what motivated her to accept a job as a fellow at a local legal aid society working to set up legal-medical partnerships, after she graduated in 2005 from Boalt Hall School of Law at the University of California at Berkeley.

Knight advises: "Work in a firm for three years, pay all your debts, then go do what you want. ... We're our own biggest obstacles."

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Posted by MSG - 7 months, 1 day, 23 hours, 34 minutes ago

Welcome to the real world.
Posted by Recent Grad - 7 months, 1 day, 21 hours, 50 minutes ago

Knight said. “Work in a firm for three years, pay all your debts, then go do what you want. ... We’re our own biggest obstacles.”

I’m glad that Ms. Knight had the money to come out of law school with little to no debt and work for legal services. It is absurd of her, however, to suggest that law school grads can just “choose” to work for a large firm right out of school, pull in $160k a year, and pay off their debts.

Unless you’re coming out of the top tier schools (debatable where that line stops), you’ll have to be in the top 5% of your class to nab a large firm job. Basically that leaves 95% of new attorneys graduating from schools ranked under #10 on USN&WR to fend for themselves.

And we do fend, us bottom feeders, but it takes a sheltered person to suggest that the majority of new law school grads are “choosing” not to go to large firms, get our debts paid off through what we accept is indentured servitude, and then leave. Most of us never had that option.

So congratulations to Ms. Knight, grads of schools in the top 10%, and recent grads who had their tuition paid for by wealthy parents. You have a lot of options. Just don’t speak for the rest of us.
Posted by Big Bill - 7 months, 1 day, 5 hours, 29 minutes ago

The story of the guy who left the law because he could not find work is commonplace nowadays. I was admitted to practice more than a year ago and still cannot find a legal job. Many of the my classmates are in the same boat. We are doing document review work, contract work, and working non-legal jobs all in the hopes that we may still land a job as a lawyer. We all finished in the top third of our classes at Tier 2 and Tier 3 schools. But, just as the man described in the article explained, class rank and clerking experience during law school mean very little for most law graduates of non-elite law schools (or those who finish in the top 10% at their school). Because of the glut of new attorneys (in part due to the ABA’s fixation on accrediting more and more law schools and allowing many law schools to admit, enroll, and graduate enormous classes of students) fewer law firms hire “entry-level” associates anymore. What was once deemed “entry-level” now requires 2-3 years of relevant legal experience. Moreover, with so many new lawyers fighting to find work, new lawyers are willing to do anything to get their foot in the door--including accepting low-ball offers that barely cover the bills. This is complicated by the fact that law school tuition has skyrocketed in recent years and leaves each graduate with crushing debt. The employers know this. Consequently, new attorney salaries for most new associates (not the rare, inflated salaries that the few Ms. Knights of the world will receive) are very low--barely enough to cover debt repayment and rent. Most new lawyers survive on $40-55k annually before taxes and debts are paid. Add to this the fact that most lawyers at smaller and midsize firms (where most lawyers actually work—not the firm where Ms. Knight is working) have salaries that do not keep up with inflation, and you realize that law school and the legal profession is a scam that rewards and protects the elite and makes indentured servants out of the remaining lot.
Posted by Tired - 7 months, 1 day, 5 hours, 22 minutes ago

THIS HAS GOT TO STOP. SORRY FOR TYPING IN ALL CAPS, BUT I DON’T KNOW HOW ELSE TO GET THE ABA’S ATTENTION.

ABA: DO YOUR JOB. PROTECT OUR JOBS. PROTECT THE PROFESSION, LIKE THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION DOES FOR DOCTORS. STOP ACCREDITING NEW LAW SCHOOLS, AND START SHUTTING DOWN POORLY-PERFORMING DIPLOMA MILLS.

THIS IS DEPLORABLE.
Posted by Sherry - 7 months, 1 day, 2 hours, 12 minutes ago

There goes my dream of going to law school and becoming a Family Law Attorney. I’m in my late 30’s and willing to take on law school because of my own personal beliefs and ethics. I’m not doing to it because of the money. I’ve spent over 7 years in human services, which doesn’t pay. I want to practice law for the greater good; perhaps more people should examine their desires about becoming lawyers before entering these prestigious law schools and ending up with huge amounts of debt. It really does stink being out in the real world, doesn’t it?? Welcome to IT!!
Posted by kevin99 - 7 months, 1 day, 1 hour, 49 minutes ago

Sherry:

I hope you are planning to go to a T14 school, or have a business plan and savings in place to hang a shingle, because you likely will not get a job upon graduation. Whether or not anyone enters law school according to his/her own personal beliefs and ethics is irrelevant to this conversation. What IS relevant is the fact that many law students graduate with enormous debt and zero job prospects. Thus, their dreams for becoming a lawyer (whatever those may be) are dashed. Instead, they are saddled with debt and no way to pay it off. If you want to join THIS real world, be my guest. But be forewarned. Many new lawyers would rather return to your “real world,” the one where we did not give up 3-4 years of our lives passing through the hell of law school and the bar, in addition to giving up three years of income and benefits, in order to come away with over $100k in debts, no job, and the sad hope that if we do secure a legal position, it won’t even pay enough to cover our debts.
Posted by Jay - 7 months, 22 hours ago

Could not agree more with these comments!! Outside of the Top 10 schools—forget it—i went to a Tier 4 school finished in the middle of the pack interned with the Fed Court in California, and US Attorney—and did document review for two years untill I took a position as a broke associate at a small firm !! Don’t do it!
Posted by Big V - 7 months, 6 hours, 26 minutes ago

I graduated from a T1 school. I can’t find anything. It’s been two years since I graduated.

I’ve encountered a lot of age discrimination, and I think, a lot of race discrimination in the hiring preferences.

It’s an embarrassment to have that expensive law license on my wall, yet have to lower my head when people ask where I work.
Posted by Bittersweet - 6 months, 4 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 52 minutes ago

This is news?

I got my JD in 1997. I have 3 state licenses, and a folder a foot thick of rejection letters from those places that have been kind enough to bother responding. I’m doing doc review in DC because that’s the only thing that lets me pay rent, and it took years to get doing that. I had more responsibility in the job I left to go to law school than in the ten years since then. The JD makes me “overqualified,” yet I can’t get a job other than reading other peoples email.
Posted by Sherry - 6 months, 4 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 27 minutes ago

Kevin99~
I’ve been in the Real World for a very long time; I know what debt is like. I also know what hell is like, as well; whether it is law school or life. Don’t judge people based on mere words, but their actions.
Posted by BBB 333 - 6 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 57 minutes ago

It’s not enough to be smart anymore. You have to have connections and a great resume to get a good job. I was lucky. I came out 25 years ago from a pretty good school near the top of my class and got a good job. Not sure that would happen now with so many people pounding the same pavement looking for work. My sympathies to all the young lions out there thinking they too will be lucky...maybe things will change, but I doubt it as long as there is such a glut of lawyers.
Posted by Houston Lawyer - 6 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 7 minutes ago

The point of the article is that there aren’t as many law jobs out there as there used to be. Quit whining about the “hell” of law school and the bar. Please! Law School was easier than high school, and the bar exam is just a stupid test. People who really go through “hell” are people who are struggling to get by working at Walmart or whatever. Stop whining about your $40K and $50K per year jobs. If you don’t have the ability to be in the top 5% of your tier 2, 3 or 4 law school then go find some other profession to get into and quit whining about this one. If you can’t get good enough grades in law school to be in the “elite,” maybe you should revise your dream and not become a lawyer for heaven’s sake! Talk about being sick of hearing it. Sheesh!
Posted by BIGLAW 1ST YEAR - 6 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 7 minutes ago

I agree with Big V (#8). It is outrageous that the legal profession is so racist. How can a so-called progressive group still practice affirmative action in this day and age?

Being white, I had to fight tooth and nail to get where I am today while the grossly unqualified got handed jobs on a silver platter. I am not joking, a black girl in my summer associate class flunked out of her tier 4 law school (and later got back in) and somehow got a job at the most prestigious and highest paying firm in the city.
Posted by #13 - You are Ridiculous - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 58 minutes ago

"Being white, I had to fight tooth and nail to get where I am today while the grossly unqualified got handed jobs on a silver platter” - GIVE ME A BREAK. Its really easy to blame the “Black girl”. I’m sure she fought tooth and nail as well. That resilience is probably what got her into the highest paying firm in the city.
Posted by Ronnie - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 55 minutes ago

I graduated from law school #14 in the top-third and couldn’t find a job. And, oh yeah, I’m black, and female, so get over the racist thing. Connections, for any race, are far more beneficial. One of my best friends, also black, and female, graduated in the bottom half and got a clerkship for the appellate court and then a job with the UN because of her family’s connections. And I’m not mad at her, because I’d do the same thing if I could. I have a great job at a family law firm, which I got through the strength of my resume. Really, the whining has got to stop. Doesn’t it get old to lay blame to everyone else all the time?
Posted by MommyEsq - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 52 minutes ago

It is true that it is much, much harder to get a job with a law firm than it seems to have been in years past. However, I do not agree with the implication in the article that working in the business sector is somehow a step down. I chose to work in-house straight out of law school and it was a fantastic choice. I knew I wanted a family and a work-life balance, and that’s what working 8:30-5:30 gives you. No billable hours, no huge pressures to impress the partners...or to make partner! I don’t make as much money as I would if I worked for a law firm, but I graduated less than 3 years ago, and my salary is in the low six figures...which even in uber-expensive DC is still a good living. To me, even doubling my income would not be worth the trade-off of not seeing my children grow up.

I have to agree with Tired that the ABA needs to stop focusing its articles on the 5% of attorneys who are fortunate (or unfortunate?) enough to work at a BIGLAW firm and start out making $160k. It is not an accurate depiction of life as a lawyer, even if it does make for an eye-catching headline.
Posted by SnobbyInDC - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 51 minutes ago

It seems to me that this is a case of people failing to do their homework before rushing into law school. Honestly, did you really expect to go to a Tier 3 school, graduate in the top half of the class, and get a job that pays more than $50k a year?

Let this be a lesson to all would-be law students. Do your homework first. You’ve got no one to blame but yourselves.
Posted by Matt - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 28 minutes ago

Houston Lawyer-
Because of course the smartest people in a profession always go to the top schools, obtain great grades, and are the only ones “smart enough” to truly be effective lawyers. I get it - you are an intelligent lawyer who must deal with simpletons all day. Rest assure, though, that your hyper-intelligent brethren in the top 10% were not always the hardest workers, geniuses, and the only ones who could handle the rigors of law school. They were, of course, frauds, lucky stiffs who passed by smoke and mirrors while you, the tireless, consummate law student and lawyer, slaved away to become the paradigm of legal virtue you are today. So much so, in fact, that you had the time to belittle cattle like me who were simply not intelligent enough to make it in law, whose lives should forever be altered because we did badly on a Torts exam. Thanks for the pick-me-up, and I look forward to attending your every beck and call in the future.
And since you probably were to busy being a genius to give my response more than a cursory glance, note my end tag.
/sarcasm
Posted by also in DC - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 8 minutes ago

Agree with #17. Two big problems here are: (1) people who don’t know what to do coming out of college and then hear that law pays well, so they blindly go to law school and (2) either too many law schools, or law schools admitting too many people because, frankly, running a law school is cost effective.
Posted by Randall - 6 months, 4 weeks, 16 hours, 3 minutes ago

If you want to know how bad the job market is right now, just look at how much competition there is among new attorneys for jobs that only pay $35,000/year. I worked hard in law school, graduated in the top 1/4 of my class, was on law review, had a great clerkship while in law school, etc. Yet, when I graduated, I had to fight harder than I ever had before for a job that pays a measly $35,000/year. I’m happy with my job, and it’s setting me up for what may be an incredible career, but paying off $50,000 in student loans on $35,000 year while still being able to pay the rent is tough.
Posted by Hope Springs Eternal - 6 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 44 minutes ago

Be resilent, drive on, have confidence that you are the exception, the one that will rise above the masses, and make it happen. Whining accomplishes nothing.
Posted by Little Bill - 6 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 33 minutes ago

Hey #4, the ABA sent this article in their e-mail newsletter (with a question mark in the headline, as if it were debatable, and hidden underneath two other articles talking about $100k entry-level salaries/bonus). What more do you want them to do????
Posted by 05 Grad - 6 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 32 minutes ago

Instead of whining, we need to be SHOUTING! Recent law grads need to get this message out that law school is a scam and there are NO jobs out there. If you do get a job you will have to work for some jerk-off like Houston Lawyer or Snobby in DC.
Posted by BottomofaniceBarrel - 6 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 19 minutes ago

What scares me is that even at a top 25 school, it can be hard to find jobs when you’re not in the top. Admittedly, my grades are poor and certainly can blame no one but myself for that. However, skills competitions (mock trial, moot court, etc.) and employment history just don’t seem to mean anything. Like others, I have the stack of rejection letters and emails (yay, “hiring freezes") and find myself wondering if I would’ve been better off sticking with consulting. Each day, I wonder if I should call my friends working at BearingPoint so I’ll have some way of paying off this debt. However, I went to law school to be a lawyer, not just to make money. Hopefully there’s a firm or govt. agency who’s interested at getting in on the ground floor of my career!
Posted by nn - 6 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 2 minutes ago

Hey, it’s not just the Tier 2s and below who have problems. I graduated in the top half of my class at a top ten law school, and I still struggled to find my $45K/year starting salary law firm job. And if you think making loan repayments for a Tier 2 school is tough on a $40K-$50K/year salary, just imagine the price tag for a top ten school.

For those who say this is what we get for not doing our research ahead of time - well, it’s a little hard when your research shows that the average starting salary of grads from your school is over $100K/year, but no one bothers to mention that that figure is based on the self reports of a mere handful of grads (and the ‘expose’ on that bit of info hadn’t yet occurred when I was applying to law schools). But yeah, SnobbyinDC, I guess I’m to blame for thinking I’d be able to go to a top ten school and be able to pay my bills (on my very modest lifestyle) after graduation without having to take a second job. What was I thinking??
Posted by Jonathan Edwards - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 59 minutes ago

Can’t find a job? Make your own! small towns, communities, rural areas across the nation need district attorneys, public defenders, just plain family law attorneys to be part of that community and help the local people. I will graduate this spring at age 53, a school debt of $100K, and even though I accept I will never be out of debt, I have found a niche, a community that is under-represented, where I will build my own law firm. Again, if you can’t find a job, make your own. Nothing says you have to stay in the big city! Get out and see America, and find your niche!
Posted by Patrick Donnelly - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 47 minutes ago

An interesting idea might be to prohibit law students from taking internships. I think much of the legal world is abusing the internship process and should be encouraged to hire lawyers instead of paying very little, or nothing even, to new interns year after year.
Posted by the rat - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 47 minutes ago

Whatever, Ms. Knight graduated from Berkley. Let them eat cake…
Posted by CBG - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 45 minutes ago

HEY… STOP WHINING. I just am graduating in May from a top 50 L.S. and (though I’m not in the top 50% even!!!) had no problem finding a job at a midsize firm (no family connections) that I found by doing a mass mailing… I simply DON’T believe anyone who says the market for L.S. grads is FEEBLE!!! I believe it is the GRADS themselves that are doing a feeble job looking for one… GROW UP, JOIN THE REAL WORLD
Posted by nn - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 18 minutes ago

Oh! A mass mailing! Why didn’t I think of that??? Please. When I say I struggled to find my job, what did you think I meant? That I had to attend more than one interview? That law firms weren’t initiating contact with *me*? Or maybe I wasn’t thinking “mass” enough when I sent out 400 resumes.

Just because things worked out nicely for you doesn’t mean that things are easy or that the reason others didn’t succeed as quickly as you did is that they just didn’t try hard enough. Maybe once *you* enter the real world in May you’ll realize that hard work doesn’t always protect you from hard times.
Posted by My 2 Cents - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 8 minutes ago

All law schools should require previous professional experience prior to matriculation. This would weed out the “had nothing better to do” crowd that steals top spots from people who actually want to be lawyer, but are poor students. Granted, it takes an elevated level of intelligence to be successful as a lawyer. Every year, however, persons who actually have a native intelligence for practicing law that get shut out because they don’t fit the “profile.” The profile should be changed. Stop admitting folks based upon only the LSAT and undergrad GPA. A 4.0 in basketweaving (ie. history or journalism) at Ivy U. is not an indicator of how that person will progress in this profession. Real world experience should not be discounted, but rather emphasized. This would immediately reduce the number of graduates who “drift” through the profession, taking the high paying jobs away from persons who actually want to be lawyers. In short, requiring real world experience as a prerequisite to law school admission would have a powerful and cascading impression on the amount of jobs, amount of law school graduates, and the balancing of merit-based compensation.
Posted by Kim in Spokane - 6 months, 4 weeks, 14 hours, 5 minutes ago

Jonathan (post #25) is right on target. I find it strange to hear people complaining that they can’t find a job, or that there are no jobs, when I see so many postings on my law school’s career services website. I suspect that a lot of people who claim they can’t find a job are simply rejecting the thought of accepting a job at less that $50,000 a year, or refuse to move outside of big urban areas.

I started law school at 40 and will graduate with debt that is twice what my first home cost. I do not expect to find a job until after the bar exam results are posted, which will leave me unemployed for six months after graduation. In the lull between the bar exam and the results being released, I plan to spend my time doing legal volunteer work, such as serving as a lay advocate for claimants in administrative hearings. This will get me out into the legal community and perhaps I will catch someone’s eye.
Posted by Living Proof - 6 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 57 minutes ago

#28—the market is indeed feeble, and right now, I feel like living proof. I am a clerk at a state appellate court, a graduate of a l.s. ranked in top 35 (finished in top 1/2 of class), was editor-in-chief of a journal, and graduated with honors from an undergrad in my state...none of this has helped in securing post-clerkship employment. I consider myself fortunate to be employed, but that employment will end in ~ 1/2 year. I have done the mass mailings to no avail (receive daily responses from firms indicating that they do not have any available positions). I have done substantial networking, but have learned from many of those contacts their firms just aren’t hiring. I’m really starting to run out of ideas…
Posted by kara - 6 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 39 minutes ago

I tend to agree with 31. I graduated from a T3 school with significant debt and took a job at a small firm paying 45K right out of law school. Yes, the debt is tough. I didn’t eat out, I didn’t shop, and I budgeted like mad for a year or two. I’m three years out and am now making 60K but am only required to bill 100 hours per month, so to me, the trade off is worth it.

Are there REALLY “no jobs” or are there just no jobs landing in your lap? What I see in my fellow recent graduates is a) an insistence on making more than 50K right out of school, b) an unwillingness to follow up on leads, i.e. “make their luck.” Volunteer! Pound the pavement to drop off your resumes - actually put some face time in! Make connections! Go to business networking events in your state! In other words, bust your a$$ until you find something, don’t wait for it to come to you, and finally c) consider moving. If I hear one more person say “I can’t find an attorney job” who isn’t willing to commute or move to a different town I will scream. It would be great if someone would hand us a job right out of law school that pays $100K/year and is near where we already live, but that’s not reality.

I just can’t believe there’s not a single law firm in the entire country that has a position open right now. I think it’s more that there are no positions that YOU want right now.
Posted by Little Bill - 6 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 18 minutes ago

I love the posts by people like #31. You “suspect” and “expect” because you’re still in law school, and therefore don’t really even know what the rest of us are talking about, and clearly are still buying into your school’s CS employment myths. Wait until you’ve been out of school for a 12 months, sent out 400 resumes, not gotten a single interview, can’t pay your rent and are no longer elligible for bar loans, and then get back to us all.

As for #33, you’re right, there are a ton of entry-level law openings across the nation. There are also about three times as many recent law school graduates.
Posted by Unlawfool181 - 6 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 9 minutes ago

I myself went to a 2nd tier law school, graduated in the lower part of my class, and now am saddled with over $100K of law school debt. I struggled for over a year to find a job, but I kept my head up and kept persisting and finally found something at a small law firm. I’m making very little money, but I’m getting that experience that so many firms are looking for.... because as you recall.... we learned NOTHING practical in law school. In my year long job search, I sent out hundreds of resumes, worked with a ton of recruiters and called all the lawyers I knew and all the other people I knew who knew lawyers. The only way to do it is to keep persisting and something will come up. Even though I am struggling, working long hours, and making very little money, I am hoping to stay here for a year and move on to the next thing. So you people who are having trouble finding jobs.... try to get in where you can, join the bar association, go to court and meet attorneys, offer to write briefs and memos (for a small fee) for attorneys in your spare time just to get SOMETHING on your resume ... and check all those job posting websites (you know all the big ones). Also, check out the jobs who are recruiting for compliance associates, paralegals, and legal secretaries… send your resume to ALL those places letting them know you are looking for entry level attorney work… mass mailings are ok, but mass mailings to people who are ACTUALLY looking to hire (for any position) will get you further than sending a mass mailing to every big, (small, or medium) firm in Washington, DC or New York City. If you weren’t in the top of your class, like I wasn’t, you have to be creative. Sometimes you have to suffer for a little while to get to where you want to be. The people at my law school who were in the library late nights while I was at the bar suffered for those three years and are now making the $160k… very close to paying off their loans while it will take me 30 years… they suffered then, I’m suffering now.

And to MommyEsq, you are EXTREMELY lucky to have gotten that inhouse position right out of law school… People with tons of law firm experience who are sick of law firm life are chomping at the bits to get those jobs because of the quality of life issue....

Good luck… and remember, all it takes is one person to offer you a job. Stay optimistic.
Posted by Ronnie - 6 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 3 minutes ago

I stopped believing in CS a long time before I graduated. I temped for a year, with significant time off in between, sent off over 500 resumes (512 in one sitting), worked a non-legal job to pay my bills, and then found a job. Maybe you’re right. Maybe I am special because I never got discouraged, never felt down about myself, and knew that I had the skills to be an effective attorney and WOULD make that known to a potential employer. I feel bad for posts like #32, because I know a lot of clerks in that position, and working a clerk’s hours while trying to find a job is not an easy task. My sympathy level lessens for others, because I think people really do get tired of hearing the constant complaining, the “it’s all their fault” stories. I guess I must be cynical, because I’m one of those tired of the complaining too.
Posted by Robert H. Glotzer - 6 months, 4 weeks, 12 hours, 9 minutes ago

I attended school at night when I was almost fifty. I was a subway conductor, and upon passing the bar in 2000, I passed out business cards to many of my 4500 union brothers. In my first year I did appeals, probation surrenders, divorces, and a homicide. I would go so far as to say that were it not for this source of business from my 24 years on the transit authority and as a union activist, I would not have attended law school at all. Some of the brightest people in my class are just temping, doing contract work, or have never practiced at all. The firms will fire an associate in a heartbeat for almost any reason, even an associate with many years of service. The fact is that there are too many lawyers, and too many law schools, especially new ones who admit anybody with a pulse. We could use a few decades of AMA style protectionism!
On the other hand, if you really want to be a lawyer, and you are prepared to dedicate yourself to the law, and you are willing to make any sacrifice to meet this goal, don’t let anybody talk you out of it!
Posted by Young, Gifted, and Black - 6 months, 4 weeks, 11 hours, 48 minutes ago

I’m an African-American woman, graduated from a top 30 state school in ‘96. I was in the middle of my class in law school, and I wrote on to one of the 2 law reviews at the school. I externed for a federal judge while in law school, and then I clerked for a federal appellate judge after graduation. I started work in a “second tier market” at a mid-sized (100 attorney) firm doing great, but varied work in a specialty that is in high-demand. Then, I transitioned to a tier 1 market after a few years. Now, I’m doing the high level specialty work that I was doing before, and I am doing corporate M&A. I went to a “public ivy” school for undergrad, and did quite well there. I made 51K at my first job. I kept in touch with professors, I worked my behind off (and continued to do so), always sought out CLE opportunities, and networked like crazy. I still do that today.
What is the point of my telling you this? First, given my experiences, it is going to be much more difficult for minorities (and especially a “two-fer") to get a job in the legal profession, particularly in today’s crowded and competitive market. Any angle you can use, use it. However, I want to dispel any belief that minorities are inherently unqualified and don’t deserve the jobs that they get. When you are a minority, you have to work 1000X harder to get what a majority person gets, and you still won’t get paid what you should get. In addition, you ALWAYS have to strive for excellence and be excellent, because there will always be the racists (some may be on this board) who will question whether you should be working alongside them. I always could tell law firms that had some “diversity issues” because the whites would be from some Tier 2 school and all the blacks would be from HYS. LOL. SMH.
Anyway, it’s a tough market out there for everybody. You are entitled to absolutely nothing, unfortunately, whether you are T14, Tier 1 or Tier 4. I graduated with 60K in debt and I had the option of living at home for the first 4 years at reduced rent. I drove a beat up compact car, and I shopped the sales to get my clothes. That lifestyle allowed me to pay my loans off.
The crime now is that these universities are treating law schools like cash cows, much like business schools have been treated. I totally agree with #4 above. The ABA has to stop accrediting these law schools. They are mostly private and they aren’t even there for the public good (the purported mission of most public law schools back in the day). In addition, the bar exam standards (passage standards) need to get tighter and so do the character and fitness standards and CLE standards. There’s just not a need for all of these law schools.

Finally, the law schools need to come clean on placement rates and job prospects. MOST LAWYERS WILL NOT COME OUT OF SCHOOL TODAY MAKING 160-180K. That’s just unrealistic for 99% of graduates. The law schools need to come out and say that. Of course, if they did, many of them would not be able to continue to stay open because they wouldn’t have the students.
Posted by Young, Gifted, and White - 6 months, 4 weeks, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago

If poster 38 didn’t get her appellate clerkship because of affirmative action, then she pulled a Monica Lewinsky on the judge.

I was 9th in my class from a top 12 school and on law review. I applied to 50 circuit courts, received ONLY 2 interviews, and luckily 1 job offer. 2 of the other clerks were minorities who were middle of the pack at schools ranked roughly 25 and 32. When we were “screening” out resumes come interview time, we were told to get rid of people not in the top 10% of the top 25 schools, with lax standards for the really high ranked schools.

BUT, we were told, look out for members of minority groups (NBLSA, etc.) and pass all of their resumes onto the judge because “many times their grades don’t reflect their ability.” Let me tell you, although I’m not saying the other two clerks were worthless, if they were white they wouldn’t even get a district court clerkship, and maybe not even a state supreme court.
Posted by Young, Gifted, and Black - 6 months, 4 weeks, 11 hours, 19 minutes ago

It is obvious that poster 39 has some issues with those of us who are diverse. I guess it doesn’t matter that the judge thought, and I demonstrated, excellence in writing.

I also guess that it doesn’t matter that my judge was white either. And no, I don’t roll like Monica. SMH. LOL.

There you go again with the racism...get a life, really. It is 2008…
Posted by Not Owed Anything - 6 months, 4 weeks, 10 hours, 59 minutes ago

I think people, for some reason, tend to lose perspective when they head off to law school. In other academic fields, individuals with advanced degrees sometimes struggle to find work. (Ask someone with a Ph.D. in political science what their job market is like.)

For whatever reason--I’m guessing the expense--law school breeds a belief that just because one works hard one deserves a great paying job. The simple truth is that is not (and has never been) the case.

I’m not pulling the old “Stop whining” line. What I am saying is that the law school performance is only half the battle. The other half is recognizing what is is about yourself that sets you apart from the other law drones. In talking with those who can’t seem to find work, I’m often struck by their inability to tell me any reason why they are a great candidate for employment, other than the fact that they’ve “worked very hard.”

The other hard reality is that your degree does need to come from somewhere that can speak to your ability. Rant all you wish about the rankings and whatnot, but the prestige of the school is an indication of all the work you did before law school. I’m not surprised that employers give weight to that. As an employer, I certainly do.

A place can be found for those who really understand where they belong and why the belong there. Entitlement, however, no longer gets you anywhere.
Posted by Vic - 6 months, 4 weeks, 10 hours, 41 minutes ago

I don’t know if it is hard for some to understand. If you flood a supermarket with 3 billion bushels of apples, is there any doubt the majority of them will not be sold. Why should we expect any different result if we fllod the market with lawyers?

Well, despite all the evidence, the ABA approves another school to be opened, i.e., at UC Irvine. I guess 30 law schools in California are not enough. And 200,000 practicing lawyers in the state are not enough, either. We need more.

Great job, the ABA! Way to go, I hope you are proud of themselves.
Posted by H.V. Baxendale - 6 months, 4 weeks, 9 hours, 13 minutes ago

So how do the students and recent grads feel about this character: attends a top school, gets top grades, gets the clerkship and/or good job at the good firm; quits after 4 years to work at the family business (likely a client), get the EZ hours job at a bank, or raise a family? Is there something wrong with his taking the spots in school and the job market, so the next person gets cut, or is he entitled to do whatever he wants b/c he earned it? What if he always knew he’d bolt after a couple of years? I have no answer; I see both sides.
Posted by Socal law - 6 months, 4 weeks, 8 hours, 19 minutes ago

Unfortunately that’s the reality. It comes down to simple economics of supply and demand. If you really, really want to practice law, no matter what and can find a way to pay of the loans, then more power to you. On one side, I can see people having noble goals of “fighting for rights of people” and they don’t care if the pay is low. I say, more power to them, if they can find a way to pay off the loans. On the otherside, there are those who would love to do something like public interest law, but they can’t afford to pay off loans and pay their bills with such low pay. As for me, I was fortunately able to find a job and have been working at the same small law firm for 5 years now. The pay is not the greatest, but enough for me to make ends meet and the practice area was never an area I intended to go into. I do plan to leave this area if I get the chance. But, one plus side is that I don’t work killer hours like people in biglaw.
Posted by Ding Dong - 6 months, 3 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 36 minutes ago

I agree with the statement that there are simply too many law schools- and new graduates. However, these law schools have a demand (I guess from people who can’t get into the schools in place already) and the ABA gets sued by the school when it denies accredidation. The ABA can’t make up standards that have nothing to do with the practice of law or delivering a quality education. Also, If someone can pass the bar, I suppose they at least deserve the shot to become an attorney. Theoretically, this should all work itself out as a supply/demand issue- those who are considering law school will hopefullly get good data (probabaly not from a law school) and decide it is more lucrative to do something else. It is catastrophic to have spent 3 yrs of rigorous study and the 100k it takes to do this, only to find no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Stats show that 50% of attorneys are no longer practicing after 5yrs of bar pass. This all indicates that there is just too much demand to go to law school, but who are we to tell someone they can’t pursue a dream?
Posted by Eleanor - 6 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 39 minutes ago

Dear 37,

Passing out business cards is unethical and prohibited conduct, and I’m pretty sure they cover that at night school as well as in day school.

That eyesore of a comment aside, I am really saddened to read these posts: saddened about the market conditions, about realizing that people competing for entry-level jobs lose all sense of dignity and tolerance, about the fact that shady law schools that lure people in with false information about employment prospects still pass the ABA’s muster. It absolutely is the job of the ABA to undercut these horrible trends and redeem the reputation of our profession - at least from the inside.

To this end, 45 pointed out that that the ABA gets sued if it does not accredit schools. Oh well, that settles it then, forget it. Except, oh, wait a minute… I thought the ABA consisted of lawyers who could defend themselves in court, whose firms could take on these cases on a pro bono basis. I guess when you’re desperate - your critical thinking goes too, which, I imagine, makes it ever harder to get a job and retain it for longer than 5 years. Good luck 45.

And as for Ms. Knight who thinks that one can pay off law school debt by working at a large firm for 3 years - I really wish she’d let me know at which firm exactly I can make $210,000 in after-tax income in three years (that’ s cost of law school with 3 years of interest) AND still be able to buy suits to wear to work AND still be able to eat AND pay rent in an urban area where large firms are located. Please, please do tell. 27 said it earlier: let them eat cake.

How sad and obnoxious all this is. In closing, I say to every hater on this post who can’t land a legal job and blames his or her black/white/younger/older/more or less experienced competition (equally unemployed competition): given that you’ve lost your ability to be a human being, you shouldn’t be practicing law anyway. Give up the search. Go into business.

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