ABA Journal - Law News Now

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1. Posted by winthrop - 2 months, 4 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 39 minutes ago

   The sooner law schools openly acknowledge — indeed, proudly announce — that they are at heart vocational training institutions, the sooner they will move away from their current model, which is designed to develope future law teachers rather thanfuture providers of legal services to the lay public. Lawyers shoyuld be trained oto think of hemsleves more as plumbers or electricians and less as clergy or intellectuals.

2. Posted by KJS - 2 months, 4 weeks, 20 hours, 11 minutes ago

   Every law student should be required to do two year-long clinicals, one as a 2L and one as a 3L.  One would be a clinical doing transactional work: helping set up small businesses, work up contracts, etc.  The other would be a clinical doing trial litigation (civil or criminal, or a semester of each).  That, more than just about anything else, would help students become more prepared for the actual practice of law.

3. Posted by kate - 2 months, 4 weeks, 19 hours, 52 minutes ago

   Legal education produces intellectuals who often do not possess the practical legal knowledge that new lawyers need. 
   Law schools emphasize the importance of academic legal writing - such as journal articles and legal thesis papers.  This does not prepare students for the world of practice.
   Instead, or in addition, law schools should have mandatory advanced practice credit requirements.  Students should be required to participate in, as a prerequisite to graduation, clinics, practice-intensive seminars and writing workshops, and professor-supervised legal internships. 
   Students must learn to draft motions and briefs that are correct in form and have appropriate contents and to operate on strict deadlines.

   Students need a class that gives them tips for actual lawyering.  One example: it would be a good thing to do to teach students that they, as new lawyers, should make nice with the paralegals and secretaries in their workplaces.  Humility is a hard lesson to learn.  I have known people I graduated with in 2005 who made the mistake of thinking that they were more more knowledgeable or valuable to the firm than the legal secretary with 30 years experience.  Alienating competent staff is the worst mistake any newbie can make.  At worst, it can get you fired.  However, if you develop a relationship with your legal staff, they will do your work promptly and they will alert you to your stupid mistakes before your boss sees them.

4. Posted by Jack Phillips - 2 months, 4 weeks, 19 hours, 52 minutes ago

   The law school courses are valuable.  But I would say one or two years of law school and a five year internship in that person’s chosen profession.  This was a good model for many years.  It assured competancy plus experience.

5. Posted by JAF - 2 months, 4 weeks, 19 hours, 47 minutes ago

   I absolutely agree KJS in Post #2.  In fact, he or she practically took the words right out of my mouth.  As a transactional attorney, I was ill-prepared for the practice of law once I graduated.  Sure, I could analyze, issue-spot, and develop arguments, but I couldn’t draft a contract to save my life!  Luckily I started out with a patient yet masterful attorney that could custom draft contracts on the fly with a dictaphone.  I was always amazed at how he would just lean back in his chair, put the microphone to his mouth and then dictate a complex lengthy, multi-page contract seemingly out of thin air.  No cutting and pasting of previous work.  No canned provisions from form books.  It was genius.  I asked him how he did it and he said that since he had been in the practice for nearly 50 years (at that time) he came up in the world before personal libraries, internet research, computers, etc. and would have to dictate to his secretary on wax records.  To make a mistake would mean the dire wrath of his assistant and the likelihood of having to re-type on an old manual typewriter the entire document lest it look unprofessional.  I admire that man - not only because he is a brilliant draftsman, but because he’s my dad.  He taught me to throw away form books, look at templates as merely guides at what the main issues to address and learn to feel confident about my abilities.  For years I questioned whether I was a good drafter and once I left the practice with my father and went in-house, I called my dad immediately when I had my first review with my bastard of a boss who (begrudingly) told me that he was impressed with my writing skills and that I was a solid drafter with clear and concise language.  Despite teaching me a myriad of things such as driving a car, changing a flat tire, preparing BBQ’d steaks like nobody’s business, this is the best thing that my dad could ever have taught me.

6. Posted by Steve Bosses - 2 months, 4 weeks, 19 hours, 39 minutes ago

   I would e;iminate all CLE requirements.  I have spoken with many lawyers and to a person they all agree that these requirements benefit ONLY the providers of CLE classes.  Lawyers, especially experienced lawyers, as a rule do not benefit one wit.  Many read or do office work while at the classes and I know of no lawyer who believes he learned anything from a CLE program that he or she would not have taken were there no CLE requirement.

7. Posted by AC - 2 months, 4 weeks, 18 hours, 56 minutes ago

   Law school training should include motions practice tied to procedure (criminal and civil), a practical course on practice management and how it relates to ethics—returning phone calls, managing trust attorney trust accounts, keeping good records, etc., An apprentice period would also be useful as a condition of licensing.  I believe that there is a disconnect between much of the theoretical rehtoric dished out by law school professors.  Many of my professors never tried a case, dealt with clients, the courts or practice management issues.  Finally, I think two years is plenty of instructional time for law students.  Cutting out the thrid year would help a lot of students who are dealing with spiraling law school debt.  I have 6-7 legal interns in my office ever summer.  Most have never seen or thought about a real contract, developed interpersonal skills to deal with clients or colliquial skills to explain complex terms to law people.  Many have reported back to me over the years that learing these types of skills early made it easier for them to fit in, contribute to the profession and to avoid bar complaints.

8. Posted by RR - 2 months, 4 weeks, 18 hours, 33 minutes ago

   Oh, for heavens sake!  I would not make ANY changes.  Grow up people!  When you go to college to be a biologist they don’t help you with managing your debt, or learn what a biologist really does!  The schools give you the knowledge you need to get started.  They shouldn’t have to “set you up” in a practice and tell you what to do!  Have some common sense people!  I didn’t need someone to tell me that my $100,000.00 dollar debt had to be paid back!  I knew that.  I didn’t need someone to show me how to PAY it back, I figured it out myself, like working.  Even though I am an attorney, I say that most are spoiled brats.  They go to law school thinking that they will become rich and when they don’t they cry, “oh, poor me, i haven’t the sense to figure out what to do even though I am a lawyer”...  Well, boo hoo for them.  I say, drive a Chevy instead of a Lexus, live in a less expensive apartment, eat at McDonald’s instead of those fancy expensive restaurants.  Most attorneys want the STATUS that comes with the attorney career and alot of the times they just can afford it.  If you can’t manage your debt, get a debt counselor!  Also, no one is prepare for a new job.  It doesn’t matter what law firm you get in with becuase they will do things differently than the law firm down the street.  If you open your own practice, it will be different from your buddies law practice.  What can prepare you for that?  Judges and other attorney know a new attorney doesn’t know everything, they were new attorneys once too!  They will help you along, all you have to do is ask!  Don’t be a tensed up person who thinks “I am an attorney, I shouldn’t have to ask anyone anything..“ because you do.  I have been practicing for 8 year and I STILL have to ask questions.  Law school taught me exactly what I needed to know.  Common sense helped me figure out the rest.  So I say to those people who don’t think they are prepared coming out of lawschool…. QUIT WHINNING!

9. Posted by rr - 2 months, 4 weeks, 18 hours, 28 minutes ago

   Please exuse all the typos in the comment above.  I generally check for those, but I was overcome with disgust at some people and my fingers were just flying. :)

10. Posted by Eric - 2 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 42 minutes ago

    I would mandate required courses in basic legal education, i.e., Constitutional Law, Evidence, etc., for the first two years of law school.  The third year would be a full-time clinical program that would involve rotating through several areas of practice. 

    I can’t speak for other lawyers, but my first two years of law school prepared me for appellate practice and very little else.  Had I not elected to participate in clinical programs my third year, i would have left law school without having gained any practical experience save what I picked up during the summers clerking.

11. Posted by Eric - 2 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 34 minutes ago

    “When you go to college to be a biologist they don’t help you with managing your debt, or learn what a biologist really does! “

    I studied economics, not biology, but nevertheless, my undergraduate institution taught theory and practice.  In fact, my undergrad had externships with the fed bank, banking institutions, consulting firms, and the like. 

    Moreover, a person coming out of undergrad with a degree in biology, economics, or whatever, isn’t going to be handed someone’s liberty on their first day at the office, and told that if they make a mistake, that person will spend large amounts of time in prison.

    The problem, rr, isn’t that people are greedy, status-obsessed, or whiny, it is that many lawyers, myself included, don’t want clients to subsidize our practical education with their money and lives. 

    Biologists, as best as I can tell, don’t have clients that will suffer from beginner’s jitters. 

    Lawyers, on the other hand, have other peoples’ lives in their hands, and mistakes can harm others, not to mention the fact that a baby lawyer can lose his entire career if that mistake is big enough.

    At any rate, I think I’ll descend from my high horse now.

12. Posted by Hmmm - 2 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 24 minutes ago

    Practicum hours like other professions.

13. Posted by LCB - 2 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 12 minutes ago

    Teach students how to draft discovery in legal writing and teach students how to take depositions in trial advocacy.

14. Posted by John Gear - 2 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 10 minutes ago

    I would require that all law school exams be open book, in the library, with no time limit—with the proviso that the exam start and stop times will be recorded, and that, after the exams are graded, a table of deductions would be applied to the initial grading.  So a nominal three-hour exam would have no deduction if turned in within six hours, and minus 5% for every hour thereafter.  The point is that exams currently promote malpractice skills—answering questions without benefit of research.  What exams should do is condition students to NOT answer questions off the top of their head but to quickly formulate a plan for researching and finding a good answer quickly and writing that answer up efficiently.  Give students as much time as they need to develop the right answer; use the time-based deductions to demonstrate that, in law, there’s a real benefit to coming up with a fast, good answer rather than polishing the cannonball forever to attempt to create the perfect answer.

15. Posted by Andy the Lawyer - 2 months, 4 weeks, 17 hours, 1 minute ago

    Trial practicums by combat, in cage arenas, with chainsaws.  Two law students enter—one law student leaves.

16. Posted by Doug Echols - 2 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 56 minutes ago

    I was woefully unprepared to deal with real poeple and real problems. A minimum of 6 months working for a pr bona clinci under supervision after the second year would help. I had a liscense, a diploma, and an Order of the Coif plaque but I had never drafter a pleading, written a contract, explained options to a client , taken a deposition, or done anything else real world except for przctice court and moot court. Happily I went to wrk for a firm that helped teach me those skills rather than hanging out a shingle. Law school teaches the theory but ignores the practical. We need some practical training if young lawyers are going to succeed in all but the biggest of firms.

17. Posted by David Heinemann - 2 months, 4 weeks, 15 hours, 30 minutes ago

    When I started law school over 20 years ago, I naively believed that most of my professors would be people who had significant experience practicing law.  Instead, I was taught primarily by people who are primarily academics.

    While I came to appreciate the need for academic experts to teach academic subjects, I have always felt that the balance was tipped too far toward the academic side of things, as opposed to the practice of law.  I agree with Doug Echols and others that more education in how to deal with real people and real legal problems, and more education about the practice of law, is needed.  After all, only a small percentage of law school graduates go on to become law professors or appellate judges.

18. Posted by Molly - 2 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 51 minutes ago

    As a CPA who works in a law school and paid my dues in a big 6 (back then)....The accounting profession is no different.  In school you learn the conceptual framework and in your first two years in a firm you work 80 hours a week to get your practical and application skills up so you can keep your job.  It is grueling but you learn alot and earn your rewards.  Later as a competent manager resolving complex issues you find you go beyon you practical skills and often rely on that conceptual framework they tought you in school.

19. Posted by Slingshot Willy - 2 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 22 minutes ago

    All law school applicants should be required to take an entrance exam to ensure that they understand: (1) their likely compensation followiung graduation, (2) the projected all-in cost of a legal education at the school, net of scholarships and grants but including the opportunity cost of foregone salary for three years, (3) the true cost of student loans, and (4) the bar exam pass rate for the school’s graduates.  Choosing to attend law school is a major financial decision, and students should understand the economics of pursuing a legal education before they enroll.

20. Posted by valerie - 2 months, 4 weeks, 13 hours, 4 minutes ago

    One thing that is interesting about many of these comments is the current about providing practical experience.  I have been out 19 years and all of the practice classes/practical clinic work WAS available at my school and I took part in only a little of it.  While I regret that I didn’t take advantage of more clinical-type classes, there are many conflicting requirements in the 2d and 3d year.  First, in order to be prepared for the BAR EXAM, it is suggested that students take certain classes that may interfere with the time to do clinical work.  So my first comment is:  reform the bar exam.  Second, law school is not a “happy place” for 90% of the students - it is a cut throat, competitive, intimidating environment fueled by the Socratic method which can and does make students feel terrible about their achievement/abilities.  Grading, while currently inflated (I know, I am a law school professor) is often harsh, subjective and unforgiving. The job market for law firms focuses on the top 3-5% of a class, hence the vicious circle about making good grades.  When you throw yourself into clinical work for the experience, your core classes suffer and you may get lower grades.  While , In my experience, many of the most successful attorneys DID NOT get good grades in law school . . .they also had a hard time getting a JOB to begin with because of lower grades!! There is an inequity between grades and experience . Third, writing is one of the most if not the most important part of being a practicing attorney. Yet, in some law schools, writing classes are put down as the “ugly stepchild” of the “substantive classes,“ and students are so stressed out about the balance, that they can’t focus on developing their writing skills. 
    As for issues after law school, I agree with the person who suggested eliminating CLE requirements.  They are merely a money maker and a true annoyance.  Any attorney in practice wants to keep up with the law to better serve his/her clients and to force the issue and make us pay is unnecessary.

21. Posted by public interest lawyer - 2 months, 4 weeks, 9 hours, 5 minutes ago

    I think that law school should be set up more like medical school:  first, a year or so of foundation/theory, then another year of work in a law school based clinical program (mix of theory and practice), then 3-5 years of work in the public interest, supervised by experienced attorneys but doing most of the work independently.  The bar exam should be replaced by skill evaluations for your years of “residency.“
    This would kill two birds with one stone - there would always be plenty of representation for low income folks AND lawyers would actually be LAWYERS when finished with training.

22. Posted by William - 2 months, 4 weeks, 2 hours, 56 minutes ago

    I would require law professors to act like human beings and treat their students with respect.  Now, there’s a novel idea.

23. Posted by Ruth - 2 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, 9 hours, 57 minutes ago

    I have been out of an ABA law school for 16 years and in solo practice the whole time.  Very little of what I learned in school has been relevant on a day to day basis, however what I did learn was to budget my time and energy, since I worked during the day and went to school nights,

    If I were the Legal Ed Czar, I would mandate that each incoming student state in one paragraph why they were attending law school, how much they thought it would cost in hard dollars to achieve this education and how they planned on giving back to the community in the future,  If you can state those goals in one paragraph, then you are prepared for what law school has to offer.

    I work in the tax and bankruptcy arena, have prepared bankruptcies or worked out tax problems for far too many attorneys who had no clue how expensive graduate school was or how to transact the business end of running a law firm.  If they had been clear from the beginning as to their goals and how much it would cost, they would have been in far better shape today.

24. Posted by Mommy Esq. - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 19 hours, 4 minutes ago

    There needs to be more of a focus on the skills classes and required internships.  I completely agree with the idea of making the third year all skills classes, externships or clinics.  3L is a throwaway year where you sit there, bored, just waiting to graduate, unless you actively choose to engage yourself in something worthwhile.

    I made a conscious decision in my third year to take several skills courses (such as negotiations, client interview & counseling, and legal drafting) while my classmates were taking “substantive” legal theory classes.  Those skills classes are the ones from which I learned the most and use the most today, yet they were thought of as “soft” or “easy” classes and therefore disregarded by many of my classmates. 

    As for internships, even my undergrad required an internship for my major as a prereq for graduation.  Law school required nothing more than my tuition check.  Fortunately, I worked as a law clerk for a local firm for the last two years of school and learned quite a bit from them about the actual practice of law.  That experience enabled me to get a good job out of law school with relatively little effort, and to be able to actually practice law without tons of oversight fairly quicly thereafter.

25. Posted by Chris - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 12 minutes ago

    Clinical classes, clinical classes and more clinical classes working with REAL clients and solving real legal issues.  I would also have law schools focus more on helping their students find jobs outside of biglaw.

26. Posted by Paul - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 27 minutes ago

    First, law schools should buck the conventional wisdom and add another year of law school.  Most lawyers have no idea how we got to where we are in the development of the law.  Instead of taking for granted that law students have an understanding of the history of jurisprudence in our culture, law schools should teach it.  Students are dropped into law school without this knowledge and many never get it.  They become technicians.  That is why lawyers are, by and large, not moving society forward in any sense.

    Second, students should be required to learn to draft practical pleadings and briefs and participate in practical clinics.  As was said above: “Students need a class that gives them tips for actual lawyering.“

    Maybe a semester of each of these.

27. Posted by JBo - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes ago

    1. My first priority as law czar would be to bring law schools in line with modern educational philosophy.  Too many law schools still operate on the same principles as medieval institutions, that attempt to squeeze the joy out of learning and transform it into a dreaded but necessary chore.  Tyranical professors who browbeat and intimidate students would be summarily dismissed,

    2. Law schools should maintain a balance between theoretical/philosophical knowledge and understanding of the law and the practical aspects of actual practice.  Law schools should not become vocational training institutions, however.  Artists study art, not marketing their work.

    3. I would introduce required courses in civility and cooperation with all parties involved in a legal dispute.  Younger attorneys, especially, have become barracudas in their practices and are completely lacking in humility and honest, open, cordial relations with opposing counsel.  I would like to see law schools stress that the legal process and courtrooms are not battle grounds, where victory goes not to the aggrieved party, but to the side with the most ruthless lawyers and the biggest guns.

28. Posted by Irwin Ironstone - 2 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 28 minutes ago

    Law school can be fun, but it can be taught using modern technology.  The costs of online schools would reduce the costs and open the field to more people without large debts.  Most law students take bar preparation courses because law school does not prepare one for the bar.  And the bar does not prepare one for practice. Another issue is that most law schools and students have access to Westlaw, or Lexis, but these services are expensive and new lawyers cannot afford them.  Many are required to go back to books, or alternative services.  There is not sufficient room to indicate all the ways that Law Schools should be changed.
      As for CLE classes, I would agree that they are not reasonable, but are required.  An alternative would be to require lawyers to do pro bono work -without allowing them to buy out of it!

29. Posted by Linda Seay Robertson - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 16 minutes ago

    I would implement 2 year apprenticeships after graduation in lieu of state bar examinations.

    CLEs in your field of practice should still be required.

30. Posted by William Hollis - 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 7 minutes ago

    1. I would make it as in England; solicitors and barristers. I do have many lawyer friends. It appears maybe half shouldn’t be. Not because they are incompetent but because they are feeders on the public.
    2. In my subdivision, the HOA foreclosed on an elderly couple for being a couple of hundred dollars behind in their dues. He was proud he could represent his client the HOA in this event. He has made the news in his heartless escapades, yet he continues his tactics.  A couple, uniformed and in Iraq, although they keep sending money to keep their home, he keeps sending them late charges. Of course, one doesn’t hear about the good events lawyers perform on the news.

    As you know, lawyers in general do not have a good reputation. This is the source of lawyers jokes. Lawyers are their own worst enemy.  There are good ones and I’m fortunate, some of these are my friends.

    3. I would make a law degree accessible for each state on the Internet. I can hear the guffaws now. There are some on line degrees now, but don’t quite reach the performance level they should, do they? 

    We have veterans coming back with limbs missing that have the courage, commitment and smarts to accomplish a law degree on line. They have the discipline, integrity and are not afraid to speak before the public

    I took an accelerated LLM using Gilbert’s Law Summaries and enjoyed it.  As a world class jet-Captain. a member of MENSA, retired Military commander, an ability to assimilate knowledge and address the troops, it seems there are those that could accomplish this but unavailable. But hear this, all before us have spent three years on campus in law school, so everybody that follows must do their time.  Very Limited thinking in these advanced times.

    Sincerely,

    wrh

31. Posted by John Gear - 2 months, 3 weeks, 17 hours, 36 minutes ago

    As legal ed czar, in addition to reforming the method of exams as noted above, I would also eliminate the ABA’s stranglehold on access to the bar exam—that is, I would remove the requirement that applicants for the bar exam must have attended an ABA accredited school.  Much of the emphasis on practical lawyering that people are calling for above is already in place in the “fourth tier” law schools—the ones who are constantly pummeled by ABA accreditation visits unless they seek to replicate the prestige schools.  Legal education will never improve as long as the ABA controls access to the final reward (ability to sit the bar exam) because these standards, by definition, prevent innovation.