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Just Say No? Associates Dish on When They Did … and Didn’t

Posted Mar 25, 2008, 11:45 am CDT
By Martha Neil

Plumbers get paid at a significantly higher rate for after-hours jobs. But law firm associates are often asked—no, expected—to accept last-minute after-hours work assignments, not only for no additional pay but even when the work interferes with significant family and social obligations.

When should an associate just say no to such "requests," even at the potential cost of being derailed from the law firm's partnership track? That question, posed in a recent Wall Street Journal Law Blog post, and discussed as well as in another post today in the newspaper's The Juggle blog, apparently hit a hot button with a number of readers both inside and outside the legal profession.

Even when the request would seem to be over the top, however, and the need for emergency associate time at least a bit dubious (one WSJ Law Blog commenter talks about a Sunday phone call to his home requesting that he miss his child's first birthday party in order to put in time at the photocopy machine on a big deal), it takes courage to just say no, readers agree. At the same time, though, it is, at least sometimes, the right and necessary thing to do.

Working as a law firm associate, "you’re a fungible unit, so why not reap the benefit of that and say no sometimes?" asks one anonymous poster in today's thread. "As for ruining one’s chances for partnership, partnership is far from a guarantee. How much would you kick yourself for blowing off major life events only to be told 'Sorry' in eight years?"

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Title: Just Say No? Associates Dish on When They Did … and Didn’t


Comments

  1. Posted by Jonathan Edwards - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes ago

    it is nice to be a solo.

  2. Posted by Oh snap, you go girl! Talk to the hand! - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 14 minutes ago

    What’s up with ABA Journal using the term “dish” in at least one title for the past several issues running?  Sounds a bit too “Oprah"… it makes it hard to take an article seriously.

  3. Posted by trumptower - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 8 minutes ago

    I was a coward when I was at biglaw.  In the beginning, I never said no out of fear for losing my job (which, in hindsight, is exactly what they wanted).  As time moved on, I started saying no only to the partners who I felt I could get awaywith it.  Unfortunately, that usually meant the nicer, more humane partners because I knew they wouldn’t hang me for it.  Again in hindsight, that was very backwards: I should have said yes to those I liked and admired and no to the a--holes.  Regardless, I’m in-house now and while I still can’t really give an outright ‘no’, I’ve learned to deftly sidestep certain work at certain times for certain people.  I’ve also finally gotten down the concept of prioritization.  Finally, because in-house (or at least my employer) is more political than a law firm, I always can come back with something like, “I’d love to get that done for you right away but SVP Muckitymuck wants this done immediately.” It’s also nice to have a GC that understands the game and has told me on many occasion “this job shouldn’t be so busy that it kills you.” Have I gone off topic?

  4. Posted by Scott - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 59 minutes ago

    It has long been false that the practice of law, in large firms, is a “profession” in which senior partners feel a responsibility and personal commitment to bringing their associates up through the ranks into status as a full-fledged member of the firm.

    If you work for such a large firm, you are, in sum and substance, a profit unit.  The owners of the firm invariably and universally see you as a generator of revenues and not as a valued colleague to whom they owe some duty of professional loyalty.  If it is a choice between telling their wives or husbands that they can’t go to Bermuda this year and firing you, you will be the one to go.  In short, large law firms have ceased to be professional organizations and have become corporations (even if not in name) who’s only loyalty is to the corporate bottom line.  You have more chance of winning the lottery than you do of becoming an equity shareholder/partner, and the thought that ‘if I work hard enough and smart enough and bring in some business, they’ll do the right thing and take care of me’ is about as rational as wishing upon a star.

    Large law firms, now, are organized.for the sole purpose of making their equity owners obscene amounts of money, and they will eat you up and spit you out without a moment’s thought.  If you let your life be eaten up by their demands that you work to serve THEIR financial avarice, it is your own responsibility.  You are responsible for your life and if you are unwise enough to work your finger to the bone for someone who would cut you loose if it meant the difference between 2 Starbucks lattes a day and 1, then, well ... you will have gotten exactly what you knew you would get.

  5. Posted by Stop crying - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 30 minutes ago

    If you didn’t do your homework as to what you were getting into before accepting that big firm associate position - after all that higher education - then it’s your own fault.  Stop complaining and leave if you don’t like the system.  There are plenty of small to mid size firms that pay decent and who pay great if you are motivated and want to generate business.  If you don’t have that motivation and are “stuck” making the bucks at the big firms, maybe you should stop and realize just how lucky you are to be where you are.

  6. Posted by Enjoy your two lattes "Stop crying"... - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago

    Wow.  Pretty obvious where Stop crying works.  Although Stop has a point.  You get yourself into it, you better be prepared for the whole deal.  This article gets at a problem that bothers me daily.  Why have we as a profession, or on a greater scale, a society, become so beholden to the $$$ and success?  Isn’t there more to life?  I understand that you can’t just float through life, but why not enjoy it a little in the process.  There is something inherently wrong with a firm or individual who thinks its OK to work instead of attending their child’s first birthday.  A**hole partners come and go, your kids first birthday happens only once.

  7. Posted by DJ - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 8 minutes ago

    I work at a biglaw firm.  I took the job after law school for the experience in my practice area - venture financing and corporate securities.  I’ve been at the firm for four years and it’s been a great experience.  Like many junior associates, I found it hard to say no, not because I was fearful of losing my job, but because I didn’t know enough about the job to know what was truly an emergency and what was someone else’s procrastination.

    Now, I routinely say no when I’m being asked to make personal life sacrifices so a partner who forgot to respond to some client request needs someone to come in on a Sunday or give up a Friday evening with friends. My personal life is more important to me than his/hers.

    There are, of course, partners I love to work with and will join their teams when I can, even if it means putting in a bit of time over the weekend (time which in general I consider “off limits").  My line in the sand is drawn with a-hole partners.  I feel it is my duty and obligation for the good of the firm and my fellow associates, to say no to the a-hole partners (and they are men and women) whenever they have a project.  I’ve found working with such people to be horrible experiences with the bad heavily outweighing the good.  This approach has worked well for me.  I’m hopeful that my example will encourage other associates to say no the the a-hole partners because if the partnershp can’t train them to be better managers and people, it’s up to us to do so by shutting them off from our valuable support.

  8. Posted by Jonathan Edwards - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes ago

    Gee guys, do the math.  If, as a solo, I bill 20 hours per week, at $150 per hour, I will earn $144,000 per year.  If 50% of my income is out as business expenses, that is still $72,000 in my pocket.  You are going to work how many hours for BigLaw, and make what kind of salary?  And my figures include 2 weeks vacation and no work on weekends or holidays.  $90,000 student loans.

  9. Posted by Bob - 1 month, 2 weeks, 5 days, 7 hours, 59 minutes ago

    It’s not conscience, but law school that “makes cowards of us all.” The ruthless pursuit of the buck is only part of the story. Another important aspect is the role of bullying in the legal profession. Much of our practice depends on priorities’ being set by the unyielding demands of judges and partners. To a significant degree, ths is necessary in order to avoid constant renegotiating of, well, everything. But add to that necessity the arrogance and bullying of many who have clawed their way to positions of power, and also add the natural mean-spirited desire for payback, and it is no surprise that people get mistreated far more than would seem to be necessary. Some posters rightly point out that the big-law model of craven submission is well known to any applicant smart enough to get in. In addition, the massive indebtedness of many law graduates complicates the picture in ways that it did not so much in the past.  It ain’t a pretty picture.

  10. Posted by MP - 1 month, 2 weeks, 4 days, 22 hours, 5 minutes ago

    I have not done well academically in law school.  However, instead, I have worked as a law clerk for a solo for 3 semesters plus a summer full time, had a good internship the first summer, and another internship while working and going to school during one of those 3 semesters.  I still have not gotten any permanent job offers, despite having a strong resume of experience and applying mostly to jobs that do not require a look at my transcript.  But, despite not having a job yet and being towards the bottom of my class, I still consider myself LUCKY to be in the position I am in, because I cannot, even if I wanted to, work in a biglaw firm.  I consider that fact a blessing and a silver lining.  People are not meant to be slaves or robots.  Also, and this is even more important and relevant, it is well known and proven that productivity goes down precipitously when people are at work for too long at a time, with no breaks and little sleep.  Even MORE important still, the billable hour system is an inherent conflict of interest between the lawyer’s desire to make more money (the only way to do so being billing more hours) and the client’s desire to have their legal work done effectively and EFFICIENTLY.  That cannot produce anything but a terrible and perverse outcome, to use the judges’ favorite words.  I for one am glad I don’t have the opportunity to work in biglaw.  It may just save my sanity, if not my life.


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