Law Grad, 32: Don’t Do What I Did

Careers

Posted Jan 16, 2008, 05:39 pm CDT
By Martha Neil

A 32-year-old Boston University law graduate is on a one-woman crusade to save others from making the same mistakes she made.

High on Kirsten Wolf's list of don'ts is spending the time—and especially the money—she did to get a law degree. Now saddled with $87,000 in educational debt that she expects to be paying off until she retires because of her relatively low-salaried job she otherwise loves in the publishing industry, she says she went to law school with unrealistic ideas about what the degree would be worth to her, reports the Wall Street Journal Law Blog.

A B+ student at BU, she thought she could expect a starting salary of around $85,000 if she went into private practice—which is, she says, what BU and other such law schools listed as the average for their graduates on their admission materials. But, as detailed in an earlier ABAJournal.com post, such averages can be comprised of stratospheric starting salaries paid to a lucky few stellar students at the top of their class—for first-years at top-paying firms in major cities, annual pay can now exceed $160,000—and much, much lower salaries paid to the rank-and-file of ordinary law graduates.

While a legal education does have value in the job market, even for those who don't practice, it's not worth what many pay for it, Wolf contends.

"I’m on a one-woman mission to talk people out of law school," she tells Law Blog. "Lots of people go to law school as a default. They don’t know what else to do, like I did. It seems like a good idea. People say a law degree will always be worth something even if you don’t practice. But they don’t consider what that debt is going to look like after law school.

"It affects my life in every way. And the jobs that you think are going to be there won’t necessarily be there at all. Most people I know that are practicing attorneys don’t make the kind of money they think lawyers make. They’re making $40,000 a year, not $160,000."

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Posted by DM - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 16 hours, 24 minutes ago

I only wish I had read this before I, at the age of 32, and roughly an top 15% student, entered law school. In addition, despite the line you get about having a prior career making you a more interesting candidate, I have found it to count against me again and again in interviews.
Posted by LDS - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 11 minutes ago

I don’t think that this only applies to non-traditional students who will deal with the debt later in life and face age-related disadvantages in their job search. I am nearly ten years younger and saddled with similar debt but do not have a prior career to fall back on. I am not finding much success looking for an attorney job, am “over-qualified” for paralegal positions, and have no education or experience to apply in non-legal jobs. I loved law school and even enjoyed studying for the bar, but my time and (less) money would have been better spent in a community college nursing program or preparing for the CPA exam.
Posted by Jonathan Bracewell - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes ago

This article is only helpful for those who lack direction in their life. What was said above shouldn’t be news to anyone. Let’s face it, it’s never a good idea to ‘default’ to going into any profession simply because you have nothing better to do. People need to learn to chase their own dreams, not the visions of others. I’m honestly not surprised, there are way too many students coming into law schools who simply don’t have the drive (or talent) to do well, and it’s because they don’t consider their options and think about what they’re doing in their life before jumping into a doctoral program. Too many people take the idea of law school too lightly.
Posted by mike hunt - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes ago

This dame had 3 years to land a good job, or hook a successful law student at BU, but she didn’t get neither. What would she have done if not go to law school with those 3 years? I don’t understand why she’s mad? Would she be sitting home watching OPRAH eating bon-bons? Now she’s mad? BU is a good school. Certainly there were some success stories she can, if not have otherwise “hitched her own wagon” to. She needs a guy, and It sounds like sour grapes from someone who couldn’t get out of the batters box, let alone score. I feel sorry for the poor woman, but I didn’t hit it big either, and you don’t see me complaining. So keep your chin up. Something (or someone) will come through for you!
Posted by AA - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 7 minutes ago

I only think law school is worth it if you are in the top 10% of the class. Otherwise it’s just too difficult to find a good paying job that willt pay off the student loans - especially for students paying out of state tuition. Law schools need to be more realistic about average starting salaries and the job market.
Posted by EV - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 3 minutes ago

I understand what is being said here, but I’ve had a different experience. I was coming from a deadend govt job as a land use planner making $50,000 with no chance for advancement in salary or position. I started law school at age 36 and accepted an offer at a great local firm to do land use and zoning work for a starting salary of $60,000. This is above average for my area of the country. Plus, the firm’s practice is to give percentage raises. Hopefully I’ll be far above $60K after a few years.

I am not discounting what is being said here. I just wanted to say that I found my age and prior experience to be the determining factor in my offer.
Posted by Jason - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes ago

I graduated in the top 10% of my law school, a prominent state law school. I make $45,000, and I have a debt of $150k. I was unable to find a job until 6 months after graduating. I only took the job because I was about to have to move back in with my parents. I’m still unsuccessfully looking for a job I will enjoy. I definitely feel that the degree has been a burden.
Posted by TL - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 42 minutes ago

I have said to numerous people who asked me about law school that they should only go if they REALLY want to practice law in some fashion and not because of the money/prestige/nothing better to do issues that people raise all the time. I think what some people forget is that practicing law—for better or for worse—really is nowhere near the best or easiest way to become “rich.” If you want to make lots of money, get an MBA and get into investment banking...or become an entrepreneur. For those folks who don’t make the megabucks at the megafirms right out of law school, work at a firm which will give you hands-on experience in the practice area that interests you and use the “graduated” loan repayment plan. Refinance the loans too—that can help lower payments as well in those early years.

After you have that experience, if you’re still interested in BigLaw, you’re now a much better candidate than you were in law school because BigLaw doesn’t have to train you!

If people had more patience in life and took the time to understand both that your first job out of law school does not make your career and that law school and the law is not meant to make people wealthy—comfortable, yes, but not filthy rich—perhaps we wouldn’t have to read the complaints we see here today and our new law school graduates wouldn’t have unrealistic expectations about what to expect after graduation.
Posted by Chris - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 42 minutes ago

I don’t think that my law degree is worthless, but it isn’t anywhere near worth what I paid for it. Coming out of a smaller private law school allowed me to run up nearly $150,000 of student loan debt. I make decent money, but with a loan payment of over a thousand dollars a month, about 60% of my take home income is going to pay my student loans. Had I known what I now know about the realities of the legal market and the realistic starting salaries, I may have opted for a different route.

My law school advertised an average starting salary of close to $100,000 a year with most law students going to Morgan Lewis, McGuireWoods, KL&Gates, and ReedSmith, all with starting salaries well into the six figure range. Out of my graduating class, 5 people landed jobs with those firms; the rest of us landed jobs paying as little as $25,000 a year and most around the $40,000-$50,000 range.

I commend Ms. Wolf for her taking the initiative to educate others on the reality of what a legal education is worth. The schools clearly don’t as indicated by the statistics they publish (just pick up any book of America’s Law Schools). They inflate their statistics, or at the very least publish statistics that they know give an unrealistic perspective of the value of a legal education. If our institutions won’t give individuals a full disclosure of what to expect when they get out, I’m glad that someone is. It’s never a good idea to go into something with unrealistic expectations based on false information.
Posted by Carlos C. Alsina-Batista - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 38 minutes ago

I am an attorney in Puerto Rico and have a 12-14-hour-a-day job at a mid-sized law firm here. I make $65,000 a year, and I’m not on a partnership track. However, even if I earned $40,000 or even $30,000 (as many comparably qualified Puertorican lawyers earn) a year, and even with the stress, this would still be the greatest profession a human being could acquire and that’s not even counting the unmeasurable value of knowing the legal principles that rule virtually every aspect of our existence.
In contrast with Mrs. Neil’s practise of discouraging potential law students, I actually tell anyone and every one who asks me about the possibility of studying law that it is the best education any person could ever have, a priceless training affecting each and every other discipline. I would actually study law, just for the sake of knowledge itself, regardless of the price tag.
Posted by Kate - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes ago

I went to law school in my 30’s as well - but I took the basic, low paying, contract attorney posiition for a big litigation firm doing document review - stuck with it and then used connections to move to a full-time position and started working on developing my own client based and niche - now am happy and comfortable with my own firm. You just have to be willing to work for it - only a very small percentage of people have life just handed to them on a silver platter. BTW - Mike (above) - you’re not seriously still in the dark ages thinking a woman goes for a higher education simply to find a husband are you?
Posted by Dave - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 34 minutes ago

Kristen, let me know the lectures you have scheduled in my part of the country, I’ll cover them for you. Going to law school was a dumb move for me too. The debt is effecting me and my family in a number of ways.

I started law school at 43 using some of the tuition benefits at the fortune 100 firm I was working at to better myself. I graduated cum laude and was licensed first time. I have 40K in tuition bills. I was drawn to it by the school’s representation that recent grads were starting at what I was making. Boy were they distorting the truth.

When cost cutting measures were applied across the board at my place of employment, it was explained to me, as I was being pink slipped, that I had something to fall back on, others didn’t. There were no performance issues, it was purely a financial thing.

There were no other positions for the type of engineering I did in the area. To continue, I would’ve had to pack up family and move yet another time.

Now, I work at a legal job for 1/2 what I was making, hoping that in a few years, I can recover a certain portion. What a dumb mistake going to school was. I’d be employed at a higher salary had I not wanted to better myself.

As it has been noted, the monies paid for the degree are grossly out of line with the market rates.

By the way, “non-traditional” is the dumbest term I’ve ever heard. With the business and technical experience I have, I’m more valuable to any law practice than a fresh grad. Grads with no experience take 3-5 years to learn what I already know about the business world, and client handling. But the law firms don’t think like that. They say non-traditional because they’re concerned about your age, race, sex, and the money you’re looking for, not how you’ll benefit them. All the things that the law is supposed to protect…
Posted by Melissa - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes ago

The debt burden of a law degree can be truly life altering in a negative way. I completely agree with Kirsten on this point. I think the general perception is, get a law degree and you can’t help but make decent money. This perception is certainly perpetuated by ALL of the law schools in this country, includnig the new ones popping up every year. That perception really needs to be changed by honest talk from lawyers like Kirsten, and from the law schools themselves. Not that they care, they get their ridiculous tuition money whether or not their degree helps you.

My husband and I met in law school, swapped ranks every semester, and one of us ended up (through a series of lucky circumstances) with a great job, and the other desperately looking for a job for 9 months, when we were functionally the same candidate. The debt we have from law school effects every decision we make. It is our responsibility, but if we could do it again knowing what we know now, we’d make different choices, and I’m not sure we’d have any law degrees, or any law school debt between us.
Posted by Carlos C. Alsina-Batista - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes ago

I wish to clarify my previous mistake of attributing Mrs. Wolf’s practise of discouraging potential law students to the author of the article, Mrs. Neil. Thank you.
Posted by Ware Cornell - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 32 minutes ago

My mother used to tell me that the world didn’t owe me a living. Well neither does BU. The practice of law can be and it has been for me for 32 years a most satisfying endeavor.

I was told as a young lawyer, that if my goal was to make money, that there were easier ways to make it. But if my goal was to practice law, the money would find me. That advice remains true today.
Posted by Jennifer W. - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 26 minutes ago

I whole-heartedly agree with this assessment. I was lucky enough to find one of those high paying jobs after law school, and was MISERABLE and unhealthy for several years. However, I did not feel like I could leave, because I needed to pay off my debt.

I would not trade my law school experience for the world, but I also actively discourage young people who don’t know what they want to do with their life from going to law school. There are many better ways to spend your time and money!
Posted by J.N.M. - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes ago

The practice of law is a long-term investment, not a get-rich-quick scheme. What’s the alternative… medical school? Residents coming right out make around the same low salaries initially. Dental school? I know someone who graduated and was making $35,000/year right out of dental school. The point is this… if you’re not tops in your class, it’s a higher risk for an employer to hire you. They’re obviously going to pay you less, initially. But look around-- there’s state and federal attorney positions paying $100,000/year or more for people with 5 years experience or so. It takes a few years right after law school, but the potential is definitely there. I know it’s tough with the debt, believe me, I know! But if you hang in there and get through those first few years, you’re much more marketable. And lastly, I can’t help but notice that no one here has mentioned the idea of going into business for yourself. You need a good solid business plan and some good old American ingenuity and, like any other profession, that’s how you’ll make the most money. Keep counting on salaries to get rich and you’ll be hurting for a very long time. Someone in this blog mentioned investment banking… but notice what that entails-- developing a book of business and referrals… it’s the same as starting a law firm, really, or at least in principle. No matter what profession you’re in, you make the most money in business for yourself if you’re industrious and hard-working.
Posted by Jeffrey S Forrester - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 20 minutes ago

I have what I call “Forrester’s Law” - for all education choices. It goes like this… “Educate and idiot and you have an educated idiot.” I’m not calling anyone in this blog or anywhere else an idiot, but the point, I think, makes a lot of sense. I believe that if you can’t make it “without” an education, the education isn’t going to magically transform you into a money maker. Many of the folks I went to law school with - that hopped into the super jobs had mothers and fathers that were attorneys and judges or owned an already successful practice - but even that was a small percentage. That didn’t discourage me - the degree helped me land a much better job in my company - that I left recently - and while I lack the job security I once had, I’m making more than I have previously - but I don’t look back, and I don’t let grass grow under my feet. Network, network, network. Find that work that you like. Then I think you may just rediscover the value of that law degree. I just love mine, but it’s not all roses.
Posted by Arturo - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 18 minutes ago

Sounds like a load of bull to me.

If you’d done your research before law school you would have found out it’s not a way to become wealthy but a way of becoming awesome, or increasing your already existing awesome-ness.

If you wanted wealth you should have gone into finance.

That being said, there’s no reason anyone should be making $40K out of law school unless they’re the legal services martyr type. There’s plenty of great government jobs out there that start at $80K and increase that salary every year by law.

Granted, that’s not $160,000 a year out of law school, but if you’d done your research before law school and not blindly believed everything you read in the law school pamphlets (they are, after all, trying to sell you something) then you’d understand that only a fraction of extremely lucky graduates get those positions.
Posted by Chris Price - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes ago

This article, and Ms. Wolf’s “crusade” to keep people from going to law school, assumes that the only reason anyone would want to go to law school is to make a lot of money. While it is true for a lot of people, it wasn’t true for people like me, who really love this profession for other reasons. I am actually making far below average for a graduate of my law school, but I am practicing in the area in which I most wanted to practice, and (so far, anyway) I love my job. To me, that’s a lot more important than money.
Posted by W - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 4 minutes ago

Amen to the author of this article. I was an even older student (I passed the bar at age 41). I worked full-time in a professional position during the day and attended law school part-time in the evenings. I had wanted to go become a lawyer my whole life but until I was in my late 30’s, there were no evening programs available in my state. Coming from an impoverished background, quitting my day job to attend during the day was impossible. Between work, the 80 minute commute each way to school, class time, and the ridiculous amount of homework, there was absolutely no time to look for a position at a firm during law school. The only people I know that actually landed jobs in good firms were 100% supported financially by their parents during law school and lived on or near campus. Though I have 23 years experience in the insurance industry, not one insurance firm would give me the time of day when they found out that I wasn’t in my 20’s. Of course, no good lawyer will ask your age during an employment interview. Instead they ask what year you graduated from high school and then do the math. The only jobs I have been able to get are low paying quasi-inhouse counsel positions. All the hype about getting a $100K + job after law school is just a carrot on a string leading students into debt. At my age, my debt will never be paid off because I am likely to die before it’s satisfied. The only thing good that came out of my law school nightmare is that now I can practice pro bono family law at a free legal clinic after work during the day. For the privilege of working for free, I will eventually pay about $200K (this includes interest) in law school loans if I don’t die first. I would never tell anyone not to go to law school however, I would tell them not to believe the hype. Those glamorous law firms jobs go to well-pampered students that attended the top law schools because they had connections to get in in the first place. The practice of law is a wonderful thing. It is just too bad that nepotism, cronism and ageism are so rampant in the profession.
Posted by George Aucoin - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 1 minute ago

I don’t find the nearly $100,000 in law school loans a burden -even after graduating ten years ago. The mistake I made was to stay at a Defense firm for 5 years as an Associate. The real joy of practising is litigating in a field you enjoy and managing your own clients, firm expenses and wins. A billing practise at a “firm” seems like a dead-ender to me now from the start. Go out and eat what you kill. Thats where a law degree and a whole lotta drive should take you. You have a life...and a law degree...go design what works best for you.
Posted by Rahul Chakravartty - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 1 minute ago

I am two and a half years out of law school and do not make very much money, but that is not why I went to law school. I wanted to work for justice and equality, as unattainable as they may seem (really- and I still do!). I have $90,000 in debt, mostly low interest federal loans. I have been on my own since graduation (just started a new partnership), and this is the first year I am not entirely broke. I know that over time I will earn a lot and serve the causes I believe in, but first I WILL PAY MY DUES. If you decided to go to law school and didn’t really want to be a lawyer or an academic, well then who is to blame for you malcontent (duh)? Law firms will not hire you if you just want to cash in your degree- it isn’t worth their time to train you. Don’t discourage people from going to law school- scrutinize them to make sure they want to be a lawyer, and then honestly advise them. As for those who are whining like spoiled children, suck it up and get back to work!
Posted by Nancy - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 49 minutes ago

I started law school at age 49 - I had been out of the active work force for many years and wanted a job that paid more than $25K per year. I worked full-time & went to school at night. I used primarily divorce settlement money to pay tuition, so I graduated with little debt.

I now work for State government (for more than $25K) doing work that is interesting and lets me feel I am making a difference in the world.

I think I got a good deal from my legal education. I know I’m not going to get rich, but I make a good wage, I get interesting work, and am able to work reasonable hours.

I do see a lot of younger attorneys who are as disillusioned as the author of this article, but from my “advanced years” perspective, I am pleased with my choice.

Would I do it over? In a heartbeat.
Posted by Petula Clark - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 46 minutes ago

Don’t you remember my singing---"I beg your pardon.....I never promised you a rose garden!....

Why in the devil is there so much whining? This indian guy (#22) has it right. Law school is for learning. What you do with it is up to you. There was no contract promising you the big bucks. If you watched LA Law, you should recognize that it’s more like “the Practice”. The women are more realistic on the Practice. One pretty one and one fat ugly one. The fat black guy also was more like my first boyfriend. Get a life, or just get back to work, like the indian guy says.
Posted by Kathy - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 38 minutes ago

There need to be more articles like this one. I am 45 just graduated from law school, worked full time and went to school part-time. I have been told my many hiring managers that I have more experience in my area of expertise than most partners.....so guess what between my age and my experience, the law firms don’t want me. In my own career field, the law degree scares employers. Its hard for non legal employers to understand that I will have to take a pay cut to work as an attorney...Industry and recruiters hear the same hype the law students do about the big inflated salaries. More articles like the one last week, about what a graduate from each law school can expect to make on average is needed. I know that I sent it to a few recruiters that have kids in law school.

I don’t believe the people taking the writers side are whinning, I just think they want law students and potential law students as well as employers to be more informed on what it costs to go to law school.

I
Posted by Mike Gunn - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 34 minutes ago

Law school is too expensive. The concept that its present cost is relative to the cost when I graduated (1968) is absolute nonsense. I could actually work during law school and earn enough to have no debt when I graduated. Almost all law school graduates these days have lives that are debt driven - and often little help to meet that debt. How did this get so out of hand?
Posted by Liz - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 29 minutes ago

People forget that lawyers work in a service industry. People should never go to law school simply because they think they will make a lot of money. People should go because they love learning and/or love people. There are all kinds of legal jobs out there, some pay megabucks and some don’t. But the reward is there, one way or the other. I am a government servant, emphasis on servant. I started as an active duty JAG officer and continued on as a civilian government attorney. I have never regretted it. In fact, joining the Army was the smartest thing I’ve ever done for myself. And I feel I"ve contributed to serving my country and serving people in the best way I can.
Posted by HowardH - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes ago

It is interesting that so many people responded to this blog so negatively. It seems that there are an increasing number of attorneys – some new and some old – who are disgruntled at the results of their choices. I too am a non-traditional law graduate. I left a job paying a six figure income to attend law school. I was 34 years old when I began law school and 38 when I passed the bar exam. My debt was/is in excess of $145k for law school and I have a job that, for now, pays $65k. I am not angry about MY EXPECTATIONS or anything that was provided to me by the schools I applied to about the expected income.

Each person with a negative comment on this blog should truly evaluate what they expected when they entered law school. Did you properly research the profession? Did you speak to practicing attorneys, judges, firms, or recruiters before you engaged in the dream of being a lawyer? I read the pamphlets, spoke to practicing attorneys, judges, and I also talked to recruiters BEFORE I applied to law schools. That does not mean I am a smart guy; it means that I thought before I leaped.

There are many ways to network to a better salary. Use your negotiation skills that you learned in school to get you the salary you feel you need. Just be realistic. If you graduated in the top 25% of your class you must understand how to study your opponent – the debt. As stated by an earlier poster – refinance the existing debt to a manageable payment. Keep learning of the practice of law and firms will either see your worth and increase your pay or you can market yourself to another firm. However, if you fail to LEARN of the practice of the law because you allow negative thoughts about debt to control your growth, it will be a long journey to financial freedom.

My advice is to remind yourself of what the practice of law means to you. For me the very idea that my legal talents help people each day is enough to drive me to success. You have to find the ‘magic’ that makes it worthwhile to you. If you cannot find the magic in your own way – leave the profession and do something else. You are of no benefit to your clients or the firm if you do not truly apply yourself to your cases/assignments.

Contact a financial planner and discuss the options you have for your debt management. It will take you ten years or more to pay your loans. If in ten years you are not earning enough to pay your loans, you may have made either poor choices in employment or you have not proven yourself of value in the practice of law and should find another career.

I still believe in the practice of law. I still believe in the honor, prestige, and satisfaction that practicing brings to me each day. I will have debt for many years, but I don’t care. I am doing what I dreamed of doing for years. If the dream is big enough, the costs do not matter! What is your dream? If the costs have become too high, maybe the dream was not big enough for you…
Posted by TB - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes ago

I have been talking people out of attending law school ever since I graduated 5 years ago. I always ask - what is your career goal? can you think of ways to accomplish that goal without attending law school? 9 times out of 10 the answer is yes. I agree that it is not worth the time or money if you’re going to law school “by default” or you don’t intend to practice.
Posted by Kathy 2 - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 22 minutes ago

Wow, what an interesting discussion. I lucked out going to law school 20 years ago at a reasonably priced midwest state law school. Got an excellent education, but had the lowest paying job in my class (legal services). Based on what I learned from my clients and fellow lawyers, I’m now one of the more highly paid graduates from the school, working as a legal consultant. You’ve got to pay your dues, but a legal degree can be helpful. However, it’s shameful that in a country as great as this we have people paying this much for an education. Whatever happened to waiving loans in exchange for doing poverty law or helping families, like one of the other writers? Let’s focus on education for all and lowering these ridiculous costs.
And for the sexist and racist comments—this is not the place brothers and sisters.
Posted by Ms. DC Esq. - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 22 minutes ago

I admire Wolf’s dedication in her “quest”. However, I strongly disagree with trying to talk people out of law school. The key is to make an informed, intelligent decision. Hearing experiences, such as Wolf’s, is part of that decision-making process, but only a PART of it.

I too went to law school later in life. I graduated in the middle of the pack from a 2nd tier law school when I was 41. Somehow, a year later, with my contacts and industry experience, I landed a great job with great pay at a large firm. I know my experience is out of the ordinary, but that’s the point. Each person’s story is going to be different. We each bring very different skills, life experiences, work ethics, personalities, contacts, etc. into the law school/job seeking process. Therefore, there are going to be VERY DIFFERENT RESULTS for people who went to the same law school or those that graduated in the top 10%, etc.

Like one of the posters above, my husband and I graduated from law school together with very similiar academic and professional/industry credentials. He is still looking for a permanent job. Believe me, I am not working because I am a better law school student or interviewer than he is, it’s just the way life happened. He is still actively searching for that permanent job, and he knows he will find it.

So, please don’t dissuade others from joining our profession, because it is such a rewarding one, but be honest with them about your experiences. Let them make an informed decision.
Posted by A - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 19 minutes ago

I realize that a lot of people graduate from law school and don’t find their dream job, but I also have to agree with people who say stop the whining. Yes, law school’s publish statistics that may be misleading, but this is not exactly new news. I started law school in 2000 and was certainly aware that there was no guarantee I was going to make 6 figures. I no longer recall my exact class ranking or %. It was respectable but I don’t think it was in the top 10, however I worked almost from day 1 of lawschool and made good contacts - that is what got me a good job with a salary I can live comfortably on. Stop looking for things to be just handed to you.
Posted by beth pocker - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 19 minutes ago

These are some of the saddest comments that I have ever read about our profession. They emphasize the problems with law schools that are primarily businesses and students who are attending for all of the wrong reasons. The best and most truthful argument that I can make for my decision to become a lawyer at age 40 was that I wanted an intellectual challenge every day, that I wanted to learn the truth about other’s lives and that I wanted to have a great adventure. As I now prepare for retirement, I can say without reservation that I made the right decision. Yes, I made more money before I became a lawyer but the daily business problems were so easy that I was bored. The only truth I knew about the lives of others were of those who were close to me, not those of people who were from very different backgrounds. The safety net of a predictable paycheck did not interest me as much as the challenge of building my own practice. After the first 6 years, I never advertised and had more clients than I could ever need or want. People continue to need legal help. The clients are there. They may pay in cash or in kind, but you can make friends for life and know that your daily labor has genuine value to others. I do not suggest working for a large law firm any more than I suggest working for a large corporation. I did the latter in my 20s and was a business consultant for more than 10 years before I became a lawyer. I do suggest working in a small law firm and, if you have basic business skills, eventually starting your own firm. I do suggest volunteering within your community to build a practice. It doesn’t take long. Finally, and most importantly, I strongly advise saving as much money as you can for the education before you go to law school so that your debt, if any, is small and manageable. That was a big reason why I went to law school when I did and not 10 years earlier.
Posted by G.William Wiland III, Esq. - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes ago

Kirsten ~ THANK YOU for speaking up! We are not “whining” as noted above, but just making note of a material reality-check that would have been beneficial before subsidizing our grad-degrees with the lovely private-loans that make our home mortgage look immaterial. Now that my wife and I are both finished with grad school (she MSc in Psych from Univ of London, and me JD with a stint studying abroad), although we are following our dreams in our respective fields, the monthly cash-flow has yet to come close to an amount which can service our monthly school debt. 10 KUDOS for being a standard-bearer in the sea-of-confusion with school loans and grad-school! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, and
THANK YOU!
/s/ Billy Wiland ~ Attorney, Tulsa OK, USA
Posted by TL - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 16 minutes ago

I agree to a certain extent with Ms. Wolf’s perspective. I am 32 and went to law school right after college. I practiced for a short time after graduation, and discovered it was not my “passion.” I was only making 45K (circa 2001) with a 85 k loan debt. I was angry that I wasn’t prepared for the reality of law practice. I would see my friends (who didn’t even have their MBA’s) making 65 k plus salaries at 25 and 26 yrs old. and getting out at 12 noon every Fridays in the summer. I decided to get out of the legal practice. I now work in university administration (law school) making 75 k a year. Althought I work hard, I have 5 weeks vacation and never feel bad about being sick or staying home for an emergency. I love my job, and yes I have two mortgages (my house and my law loan). But I decided to strech my loans out over the next 30 years. The compromise to myself is I will always have a basic car(it’s still nice!) and never take on the 500 plus car payment a month. I still don’t regret going to law school. My income potential in my current job is enormous. I wasn’t afraid to leave the practice of law. However, I do feel that law schools have not done an adequate job of preparing students for the loan repayment reality. It never hurt going to law school, when you only had 10 or 15k to pay back, but now, it’s not the same reality with the enormous loan debts student’s take on. Why not have admitted students (before they are matriculated) be required to attend a full day class where they estimate their loans and see in reality the monthly cost of paying them back! S
Posted by BIGLAW 1ST YEAR - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 16 minutes ago

I object to the characterization by many commenters that those of us in megafirms making a little less than $200,000 a year (with bonus) somehow got where we are because our parents supported us financially or we had a connection with judges or lawyers.

I had no help and I worked my butt off to get into a top 20 school, make law review, and end around the top 5% of my class. Please don’t insult those of us for which law school was worthwhile and who knew the only way to realize our dreams was to actually work for it instead of expecting a handout.
Posted by Sally Beth - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 15 minutes ago

Any one who goes to law school without truly wanting to become a lawyer is a fool. I hope more non-serious students are discouraged by foolish people such as Ms. Wolf. We don’t need those kind of people in the profession.
Posted by L.A.D. - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 15 minutes ago

I feel for Ms. Wolf, as many have posted I entered law school at age 35. It was second career choice after my husband retired from the military. I would not recommend it to everyone, it is a tough business to get into. The average starting salary in my area is between $30 and $35 per year. I recently graduated and landed a job, prior to graduation, earning $45 with $120 in debt.

The key to law school is networking. I worked full time at the courthouse, while going to school at night. I was invited to join the Inns of Court - and made sure my schedule allowed me to attend. I joined the woman lawyer’s association and when possible attended Bar events. I was able to take mediation training and volunteered for small cliams courts. While having a family, job, school and homework - making the time to network landed me a job with good pay, benefits and security.

Ms. Wolf I would advise you and all others still seeking the “ultimate job” to put yourself out there. Join the associations in your field, talk to the career services department at your law school, and volunteer - beat the pavement, no one is going to come up to you and say “hey have I got a job for you” if they don’t know you are out there.

As far as the loan payments go - mine are all federal loans and won’t be paid off before I die. I decided to consoldate them for the lowest payment and will pay on it until.... I planned my budget prior to law school so that I knew the minimum salary I would need to make the payments and still enjoy the same quality of life.

To recap - network, network, network and if you are planning to enter law school - have a realistic budget for the future
Posted by David C. LaPlante - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 12 minutes ago

I went to law school at 29 and have now been out for 4 years. I did well in school, but I did not finish in the top 10% of my class. I have had no trouble getting jobs and I am very happy with my firm, my paycheck, and my quality of life. You do need good grades in lawschool and maybe a seat on a journal to get a good job, but you do not need to be in the top 10% of your class. Like me, take a job, get some experience and then move to BIGLAW if that is what you want to do. I love practicing law and have no regrets. The Law is like any other profession, grades are important, but never underestimate the ability to stand up confidently and seek your professional dreams. Despondency, complaint, and regret are never professionally rewarded in any career.
Posted by Lou - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 10 minutes ago

I’ve been on this journey as well, but I’ve moved past it and now have a job I love. Sure, I took a significant pay cut and am still paying loans, but debt is a reality of our generation. Most people I know are still paying off education loans well into their 40s, including non-lawyers. Hardly anyone today can get a job in the legal, financial, or other similar realm without at least a master’s, so debt and disillusionment are not unique to the legal profession! With that said, one should never choose a profession based on financial expectations; it almost always leads to disappointment. If you don’t enjoy practicing law anymore, there are plenty of resources onilne to help you find another position, and I’ve found my law degree to be very advantageous in that regard. I’ll admit, the road was not as smooth as I’d hoped, but I learned a great deal about myself and what my real strengths, and I’ve been lucky enough to finally find something wonderful. Law school was mental bootcamp, but I learned so much don’t regret it at all.
Posted by Beto - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes ago

I think those attacking the crusader are missing the point(and you’re attorneys?!). The point is that many are robbed of the opportunity to make informed decisions by the misrespresentations of starting salaries and career prospects. I see nothing wrong with using the ability to pay back loans as a factor in deciding to attend law school. Career prospects affect that ability and law schools are not giving prospective students the true numbers. These deceptive practices are the problem and it takes people like the author. Lets educate applicants on ALL aspects of a legal education including its values and realistic prospects.
Posted by Mike L - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 4 minutes ago

I just graduated lawschool this past May at 34, was not in the top 20% and landed one of those high paying legal jobs, due to previous work experience. However, I still do not think it is worth it. Within the 3 years that I was in law school, (at night, while working full time) I could have been advancing and making almost double what I am making. I too regret the decision.
Posted by HP - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 3 minutes ago

I think Ms. Wolf made what in DC I call the “American University mistake,” but in Massachussetts would be the “Boston University mistake” or similar. The mistake is attending a private law school other than one of the top 10 or 20, when you could instead attend a state school.

In DC, American University graduates simply are not considered for jobs at the elite firms that pay six figure salaries. (Yes, I can point to a few exceptional graduates who did get such jobs, but you certainly can’t bet on graduating summa cum laude when entering a given school.)

Instead, American University grads who owe $100k+ in student loans are getting jobs that start in the $40-60k range. And at these jobs, they are working alongside University of Maryland grads who owe 1/4 or less in loans.

Do American U grads have an advantage in hiring over U Md. grads? Maybe a slight one, but certainly not one worth the lifetime of crippling debt they incurred to gain that ever-so-slight edge in getting a job that will never pay enough to retire that debt.

Private law school is a great investment if it’s Harvard or Georgetown. But unless you can get a hefty scholarship, schools like American and BU just aren’t worth it when you can go to U Md. or another decent state school for a fraction of the price.
Posted by Marian McGrath - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours, 2 minutes ago

I entered law school at age 43 after years of being a single parent of 3, working menial jobs and sometimes getting government benefits. I had a full scholarship but I had to take out significantly large loans because I had no my kids were still at home. I thought I had a future and that I drastic step like this would propel me out of my nowhere life and that I should do it before I got any older. While I had no illusions about becoming wealthy I wanted to work in a job where I could give back something for all I ahd taken when me kids were young. I thought I had gleaned some wisdom and compassion. I also hoped that I would one day be able to pay all my bills on time instead of always struggling and juggling. Law school was the best 3 years of my life but the 5+ years since have been the worst. (Worse than my life before.) I am very glad that I went to law school and finished in the top 5% of my class. I wish it mattered to someone else. One of the biggest conceits that I bought is that a law degree will help you in an unrelated field by impressing prospective employers with your obvious brilliance. What I have found is that if you are otherwise qualified in another profession, a law degree will not necessarily preclude your getting a job in that profession. For example, if you are qualified as a dentist or a salesclerk or whatever, you may still be able to work in that profession with your law degree if you don’t make too much of a deal about the JD. Often, however, the law degree arouses only suspicion among interviewers outside the law field. All those things I was told would “look good on my resume” probably look okay but not good enough. Still, those 3 best years of my life were worth the pain since.
Posted by Lisa - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 11 hours ago

It seems that a lot of those commenting, and Ms. Wolf, fail to understand the point of law school marketing ... to make you want to go to their school. They use those figures to entice you into apply and attending their school. However, anyone who goes to law school should do so for more than monetary gain. The legal profession is one to help those unable to help themselve and we are paid, sometimes handsomly, for that assistance. We cannot expect to make a certain amount of money and we cannot expect that it will be handed to us. You have to go in to law school with a level head and some common sense. No law firm is going to pay 6 figures for someone who just got by and graduated - you need to work hard for the fruits of your labor. I am in a small private firm making $50,000+ and have just been made a partner 2 and a half years into my practice. I expect that my income will increase and my student loan debt will gradually decrease, but I did not expect to be making 6 figures right off the bat. Common sense is lacking in those that expect that and to blame the law school marketing for that failure to use common sense is asonine. Take responsibilty for your decision and live with the results. Good luck to you all ... student loans are an investment and hopefully we will all see the return at some point.
Posted by b - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 59 minutes ago

I think the problem all stems from how much it costs to attend law school. If entrance was truly based on merit, our country would fund higher education in a way that would allow capable students to obtain these degrees with minimal amounts of debt post-higher education. If this were the case, I doubt we would see the same level of stress and job dissatisfaction at making around $50,000 a year rather than the promised six figures. Those that come from rich backgrounds and graduate from professional schools with little to no debt start out once again with a head start - no debt strapping them down. I love law school (for the most part) and the salary I make after law school is only a concern because of the huge debt I will be carrying with me upon graduation. Why isn’t the discussion focused on changing the way we finance higher education? If we believe ourselves to be a country that believes in meritocracy and equal opportunity the law school system certainly casts a heavy shadow on the light at the end of the upward mobility tunnel.
Posted by Jauna - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes ago

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you… for having the courage to speak up! I come from a family of physicians, but I did not want to be a doctor. I considered law school because I *thought* it would be the financial equivalent. It’s NOT. I am at work, so I don’t have the time to comment at the length that I’d like, but suffice it to say that I agree with you, and I wish you the best of luck in your “one woman crusade”. Sign me up! It’ll at least be a two woman crusade!
Posted by jj - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 52 minutes ago

if you go to a top law school, you don’t have to be “lucky” or top of the class. I know plenty of people from top 15 schools that graduate in the top half who can get jobs paying $85 even in non-major cities. The top 20% can get the $160 jobs. I think the bigger issue is to reconsidering law school based on the rank of the school your going to. If you go to a school out of the top 15 or 20 then you need to work your tail off to get in the top 5-10% or higher.
Posted by Griswald - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes ago

I agree with many of the posters who warn students not to attend law school for the wrong reasons. I was one of those people who went into law school because it seemed like the law degree would allow me to be more effective and more marketable in the area I truly loved (natural resource management). When I finished school, I realized I couldn’t work in the industry I loved because my high student loan payment wouldn’t prevent it. My advice to people is to be sure you truly understand the financial impact of a mammoth student loan payment. You may find it limits your career options because you have to take jobs you’d otherwise ignore simply because they will pay the bills.
Posted by Marc - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 45 minutes ago

The practice of law is not about money, first, and everything else second. It is about practicing law. Sure, there are ridiculously high salaries being paid to rediculously unqualified first year lawyers. But in my over 20 years of experience, the good lawyers generally make the good money, the bad lawyers generally struggle.

Unhappiness in a career choice tends to lead to a downward spiral in the quality of practice. This then leads to poor performance, poor reviews, lower income, etc. There are so many rewarding things about practicing law that I can’t see trading this practice for anything else other than a sailboat captain in the Caribbean.

Ms. Wolf is doing a disservice by talking about how BU misrepresented things (I didn’t attend BU by the way) or that only the top 10% of a class matters. The bottom 90% are doing quite well, thank you.
Posted by joe - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 42 minutes ago

I went to law school after 5 years of another career. But I actually did research on law schools and the market before deciding to go back. I took the LSAT to make sure that I’d have a chance of getting into a top school and was only going to go back to school if I did get into a top school. After getting into the top school I worked hard to stay in the top 1/4 of the class my 1L year so I could get good on campus interview opportunities. I landed a good job that will pay $160 starting.

Not to say how cool I am, just that I understood that there was competition for the jobs and I didn’t decide to go back to school until I knew that I had a good chance of being successful. If you’re going to a school out of say the top 20, you may have your work cut out for you (if you want a $160 starting salary).
Posted by Oldtimer - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 42 minutes ago

I respect what Ms. Wolf’s trying to do. I think that many law students, young and old, are kept in the dark about the true cost of a legal education and likely salaries at graduation.

I’m a late-in-life law student. I was not only the only parent in my summer associate class, but the first grandparent summer associate, ever. I ‘m a B+ student at a top 10 school. While I was valedictorian of my undergraduate class, I care for two children; one is disabled. I have just enough study time to ensure survival at law school.

I borrowed $200,000 to go back to school; I was not eligible for any financial aid because as a night student, I’m presumed to work. However, I’m one of the lucky ones. I secured a job at a medium-sized firm with a starting salary of $145K. It took two years to find that job; it took several failed callbacks to realize that no factory-style, high-turnover Big Law firm was going to hire a grandma to do document review for the next three years. It sure looked good on the “diversity form” to call me back, but inevitably, I wouldn’t get the job. I just didn’t fit in.

To that end, I think the NALP reports on diversity are doing older law students and the firms who hire them a huge disservice. I’d like to see how many of the attorneys, including the summer associates, are parents. I’d like to see how many of the summer associates and attorneys were non-traditional or night students. My firm is smaller and appears to score low on the diversity form because of race. However, diversity is more than just genetic traits. Nothing says “work-life balance” more than a firm full of parents; my firm does not get the credit it deserves.

Similarly, law schools should be more candid about the salaries graduates actually earn compared to their position in the class.
Posted by RP - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes ago

It’s disheartening to learn that even younger law grads than me are being impacted by the law school myth. I graduated from law school in my 50’s, top 25% of the class, passed several bar exams, have solid work experience in other industries, and can’t find any firms that are willing to train me. I think the law firms need to get in touch with the reality that hiring only young people right out of law school and training them is not the most effective way to deliver good results to your clients. One of the biggest complaints by in-house counsel of their outside firms is that the attorneys in the outside firms don’t understand the client’s business. NEWFLASH outside firms - hire people who have worked in your clients’ industries before law school!!! You can cut training time (and costs) in half AND the older, more experienced worker is much more likely to stay with the firm than someone building a resume.

I loved law school, and I’m very glad I did it, but the dirty little secret is that the legal field is about 50 years behind the times in its hiring practices.
Posted by MommyEsq. - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes ago

Arturo – I must respectfully beg to differ. My husband and I are both attorneys, living in the DC area, where there should be the highest concentration of government jobs. He spent three years out of law school looking for just one of the “plenty” of government jobs. The problem is that the entry-level jobs are being filled by non-entry-level attorneys because so many people are looking for work. If the Dept of Energy, for example, can fill an entry-level position with someone who already has experience in the energy field…why would they take a guy fresh out of law school with no experience? He ended up doing contract work (litigation review, naturally) for those two years while he interviewed. By the end of those two years, he stopped even getting interviews because he had fallen into the trap of being pigeon-holed as a career contract attorney…which has somehow become the untouchable caste of the legal profession, at least in this city. Whenever he applied for non-attorney jobs, he was told he was overqualified. He has just started a new job as a police officer, making half of my salary (and I work in-house so my salary is not huge). He almost had trouble getting that job because they were convinced he was going to leave for a better job within a couple of years...again, because they see him as overqualified. I’m 3 years out of school, he’s 4 years out of school, we are heavily in debt ($200k between the two of us just for law school), and just trying to keep ourselves out of the red each month. We will be paying off the loans for the next 25 years. I know that in time that our incomes will increase, mine more so than his now. But the job market out there is brutal for young attorneys. I would not in a million years reverse history and not attend law school. I love my job and I love what I do. But I think my husband would reverse it if he could.

The fundamental problem is that law schools are operating like businesses trying to lure in customers, and not like the non-profit educational institutions they are supposed to be. Saying that kids right out of college should know better is not fair. The law schools materially misrepresent themselves. The last time I checked, that’s NOT what the legal profession is about and it should not be condoned and 22-year-old kids blamed for not realizing ahead of time that it’s going on. There are too many schools, bringing too many people into the field, creating a too-large workforce.

I don’t think that most young attorneys are trying to get rich quickly. I think that most of us just want a stable, comfortable quality of life. By that I don’t mean a big house and BMW. I would just like to be able to stop having to take money from my parents every month to afford childcare, which I need to go to work and make money to pay off my loans.
Posted by 8th Yr, 2nd Career - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 36 minutes ago

One way to avoid debt is to work. I started law school at 34, went to Georgetown at night and worked full time. Money was quite tight for the four years of night school, my living standard was far below my wages, but I graduated without a dime of debt.

As to the second career issue, if having had a second career hurts you in an interview, you are doing a poor job interviewing. I didn’t even try to make law review. In interviews with BigLaw firms I answered questions about the lack of law review wot hthe position, “law review is for kids so they can show they can fulfill real-worl type responsibilities. I think my present job amply demonstrates that about me. I have better things to do with my time than edit other peoples’ articles.” Worked like a charm. There was no shortage of offers for good jobs.

The most important point is that one should NOT invest years of life and substantial money in training for something about which one is not passionate. That is a mistake of judgement that has nothing to do with law school.

My class consisted of about 120 people. More than eighty percent of us worked full time. About three quarters of us showed up for class five nights a week, raring to go and happy to be there. I had a ball in school and have a good carreer now.
Posted by Amber - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 32 minutes ago

Kristen - you no longer are on a one-woman crusade. Everytime I hear people contemplating law school I do my best to convince them otherwise. If you’re a work-aholic, then by all means let the law firms own you but that was not the lifestyle I wanted for myself and had I known an attorney before I went to law school who could be completely honest with me about such a career path, I would’ve chosen a different career path. Going to law school is the one thing I wish I could do over.
Posted by Bob - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 32 minutes ago

This is a valid excercise, but certainly shows that law is a BUSINESS more than a profession now for many if not most grads. Consider going in-house. It’s rewarding and pays reasonably well.
Posted by Charles A. High - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 27 minutes ago

What’s ironic is that the people graduating first in the class don’t have debts from school because they had scholarships. This isn’t about the rewarding nonmonetary benefits this is about money and debt. The salaries for law professors with tenure rise faster than anything but gasoline. Higher education is for the wealthy and the gap is widening. I do not recommend law school to my daughters now in college. This BU graduate has double trouble because of her gender. No, I’m male.
Posted by Joe - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 25 minutes ago

I was fortunate enough to go to law school in the mid 70s when the cost was not so far out of bounds. However, I also worked part time all the way through law school and paid many of my expenses as I went along. I managed to gradutate with high honors, just at the cusp of the top 10%. I also had the help of my wife working. I had been out of undergraduate education for three years and had no savings. I ended up with loans, but modest loans. (Interestingly I got a scholarship offer from one law school which didn’t even admit me.)

I did not go to Cancun for Spring break. I had an old used car. I lived modestly, some would say meagerly. Today’s law students seem to have lots of money (borrowed) for travel, cars, dining out, etc. Of course that’s tnot rue of all, or maybe even the majority, but enough that it contributes significantly to the debt that has to be repaid.

I practice in a University town with a State law school. Our Firm has great difficulty finding students who want to work part time during the academic year, or who find what we ask them to do beneath their dignity. I worked at a local law firm from the end of my 2nd year through graduation. That can be a real resume builder and improve employment prospects, plus putting money in your pocket to pay expenses, plus taking law scholl from purely abstract to real world application.

Law school debt is the common culprit running through may of the comments, not the ultimate level of compensation. At both national and State levels the Bar Associations in this country are trying to address this. Law schools should not only give realistic counseling about job prospects and compensation, but also about the determinative effect of debt on carreer choices.
Posted by 8th Yr, 2nd Career - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 24 minutes ago

Charles A. High is wrong. I graduated in the top 5% of all day and night students combined at a large school. My “scholarship” was my paycheck from day job. WORK is what it takes.
Posted by Anonymous - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 19 minutes ago

This 10%-15% stuff is absolute nonsense.

I worked hard in law school, but did not waste that hard work in the library to impress my law professors.

Instead, I worked hard to get a clerking job the first year. I worked hard to go to school and pay the bills for my family in addition to going to school. I worked hard on researching a decent paper that got published by a law review. I worked hard on improving my writing and presentation skills so I was invited to present to a law association while still in school. Above all else, I worked hard on landing a good job. I put my face, my voice, and my resume in front of every attorney I could meet (with whom I was interested in working).

In the end, my hard work paid off (with G-d’s help, of course).

I came out of school in the top 40% or so, but had a salary in the top 1-2%. Forget the salary, I have a great job, work with wonderful people, and only have to bill around 1500 hours per year.

The difference is, of course, that I knew how to work. Moreso, I knew that hard work needs to be focused on something worthwhile (like learning practical skills and finding a job), not on impressing a law professor by parroting back a bunch of nonsense (especially in those cases where the professors are not as smart as they thing--this happens from “time to time").

I suspect that if you do a study, you’ll find that salaries of the students in the 30-60% range of the class rank average double or triple the salaries of the 1-30% range.
Posted by H.V. Baxendale - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 19 minutes ago

Publications such as this one that run headline stories about Biglaw salaries and lifestyle perpetrate the false impression that it represents a norm, rather than an aberation. The pre-law school public buys the program with baseless expectations.
Posted by jw - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 18 minutes ago

to “44. b” - it’s not all rich kids going to good law schools and getting good jobs. I worked for several years between undergrad and law school and saved up my money (i determined that i really did want to go to law school). I still have some debt but not enough to effect my job choice. Rich kids may have an advantage sometimes ... but maybe you should try some hard work.
Posted by Anonymous - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 18 minutes ago

As they think...maybe I’m not as smart as I think?
Posted by 3rd Year 2nd Career - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes ago

There is a lesson here - law school is for people who WANT to be lawyers. I went to a top tier private school, finished in the middle of the pack and parlayed my previous career experience into a job that (now) pays me a six figure salary. But I did my research, lived in a rat hole during law school, and worked every connection I could. I remember being shocked in an assembly when a quarter of my 1st year class said they weren’t sure they wanted to practice law. It’s just too much work, and there is no guarantee of a comfortable salary. When I speak to students considering law school I tell them I love being a lawyer. But if they don’t have a passion for it, don’t do it. And if they do pursue it, get good grades, get a scholarship, go to a state school, and take a vow of poverty so you’ll have options when you get out. Otherwise they’ll end up like a lot of the people on this post.
Posted by b - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes ago

to jw: I worked all through high school, undergrad, and law school to defray the costs. If you read my post carefully you’d notice the point was not that “it’s all rich kids” going to law school, but rather the fact that salaries are a more poignant issue for those who come from a background where their parents can’t afford to throw them any extra money to help with rent or eliminate the need for high interest private loans to pay living expenses while in school. I work hard and have an associate job that pays market so I’m not complaining about “the rich kids” as you suggest. I simply put out the idea that perhaps charging $50,000 a year to attend a top law school disadvantages those after graduation in a way it doesn’t disadvantage others. Where’s all of your anger coming from?
Posted by Zack A - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes ago

It’s not about making a lot of money. It’s about making just enough to pay off your debts and advance in your career. The jobs I’ve received haven’t been a stepping stone to a better job. They’ve been things I do to get by. In hindsight, if I started a job right out of law school, I’d have 10 years experience by now and making a lot more - while advancing in my career. I don’t regret going to law school, but the debt and stress is slowly killing me.
Posted by KYesq - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes ago

As a 34 year old law grad, I share the author’s frustration with re-entering the workforce with experience that does not seem to matter now that I am an attorney. I too worked during law school, and attended classes at night. I graduated from a mid-level state school, did not participate in law review or mock trial, and graduated right in the middle of the pack.

I never had any delusions of making six figures right out of school, but I also did not expect positions to pay as little as 25K a year. I made more than that before I went to law school, and could not afford to accept positions I was offered clerking for a family court judge or with the public defender’s office, even though they offered a certain amount of loan forgiveness.

After passing the bar, I sent out dozens of resumes, flew solo for a few months, then eventually landed a position doing basically the same thing I did before and during law school, with a new title and a 50K per year salary.

I am not dissatisfied with my choice, however. I am just building my resume and experience as an attorney, and I know that it would have taken me at least 10 more years to earn the same amount I do now had I not gone to law school. I am comfortable in my job, I have time to spend with my family, and my hours can’t be beat.
Posted by Nichole - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 9 minutes ago

I completely agree. And before you ask, I was in the top of my class, on the law review board, and am currently a federal judicial clerk. I have no desire for the miserable life of working at a law firm. I wish someone had talked me out of going to law school.
Posted by Old timer - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 8 minutes ago

I found this article and the comments both interesting and sad. After practicing for almost 45 years, I have had on balance an interesting career and made a decent living. What was more important than the money was the opportunity to help people. In the final analysis if you are in the law just for the money it is not much fun.
Posted by FJF - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 8 minutes ago

I agree with most of what is being sad here. I am a 32 year-old third-year law student who, like some people here, left a dead-end job for law school. I admit, my expectations were influenced by the unrealistic starting salaries that law schools advertise. Frankly, I don’t know what I’m going to do after graduation. But I have a stack of rejection letters thick enough to fill a one-inch binder. Like many others, I’ll graduate in the middle of the class with a debt burden of $120k, and I will likely take a job for $50k or $60k. Yet, I’m glad I came to law school. I’m glad because I really do love the law and I am lucky to say that I’ll get to work in what I have a passion for.
Posted by Recent Law School Grad - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 7 minutes ago

I think only a few people commenting really see the problem here… the cost of going to school has skyrocketed (and not just law school) over the last few years. Kristen is in an untenable position, not because she went to law school but because she incurred so much debt doing so. When some of the posters went to school (before the 1980’s), student loans were not as freely offered. As a result, tuitions had to be significantly lower to allow schools to attract a student body. Although student loans allow more people to attend school, they also have allowed schools to dramatically increase tuition and other costs. Instead of blaming the legal profession, perhaps we should be critiquing the higher educational system. Although there have been efforts to reform the student loan process, most of them involve allowing students access to more money. This won’t solve the debt problem; it just postpones it. I’m not sure what the solution is (capping tuitions isn’t possible with private schools—they charge what the market will bear). As long as people are willing to spend $37,000/year to attend a law school, the schools will charge that amount. The only solution I can foresee is loan forgiveness programs that are more generous than the current ones. Anyway, that’s just my two cents worth!
Posted by Michael - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 5 minutes ago

I guess it’s true that those who go to law school do it because they didn’t like math class, since most of the rest of us could see the fault in looking at an ‘average’ and failing to ask if that’s a mean, modal or median.

I daresay that if BU had published its modal average it would have been well below $40k at the time this student applied to law school--But the mean would have been way higher because of the outliers in Big Law. If those who did this for the money realized that the vast majority of individuals make well below the mean average salary, then maybe they’d reconsider their plans.

All that said, I heartily endorse another comment above—Don’t go to law school unless you “REALLY want to practice law in some fashion and not because of the money.” Good money or not, this is not easy work, and you better love it or you’re going to resent the demands this profession makes on you.
Posted by Anonymous - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 5 minutes ago

My previous career was what got me the job I have (I believe). I work in a small firm and my business experience is great when dealing with businesses (big or small).

Again, only in the top 40%, but WELL into the six figures starting two weeks after graduation.

Hard work is what it takes. No one is going to hand you a job just because some shmuck law professor gave you an “A” on your ConLaw exam.

If you can’t work hard. Don’t waste your time in law school.

On a side note, I remember the arrogant top 10% or so talking down to the rest of us. I used to tell my study partner we’d be making 2-3 times as much as them our first year out because we knew how to work.

I must admit I was wrong. We’re making 4-5 times as much because we worked hard and didn’t expect a free lunch.
Posted by Bill - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 3 minutes ago

All of the comments about law grads “expecting things to be handed to them” bother me. I don’t think that taking the LSAT, going through six semesters of very hard exams, and studying for the bar exam constitute looking for a “handout.” A handout is expecting something for nothing. It’s a disgrace that as hard as it is to get into and through school and then become a licensed attorney, that still doesn’t guarantee at least a livable wage.
Posted by Adam - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 1 minute ago

Many commenters offer their stories of working through school to reduce debt or working hard to earn more pay after graduation. I agree, but I was definitely disappointed to learn that very few graduates earn top salaries and mortified at how limited the job market really is. It is natural for someone outside the field of law to have unrealistic expectations of the job market. This is why I think Law schools should be very upfront about what most graduates will earn and what their job prospects will really be.
Posted by Aaron - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 59 minutes ago

Those here who are defending the legal profession are missing the point; there remains the undeniable problem that lots of otherwise bright college students are being lured into borrowing absurd amounts of money by law schools, when most of them don’t have to. There is lots of financial aid out there, because schools are rolling in tuition money from those who pay the incredibly high full-price tuitions (by borrowing tons of money). There’s also plenty of state-school opportunity.

What’s causing such massive amounts of money to pour into schools is the easy availability of huige student loans, and the lasrge supply of otherwise smart students who have no life experience regarding how hard it is to pay back $100,000.00 or even $200,000.00 over time.

Ms. Wolf appears to be providing a much-needed opposing view to the overly optimistic advertising and recruiting material law schools provide, which make college grads think there is a ton of money out there to be captured in the form of six-figure starting salaries—all for the low downpayment of $30,000-$50,000.00 per year in student loans.

Sure, Ms. Wolf is only representing the risky side borrowing big for a legal education. But the admissions offices where many prospective law students do their research and plan their educational path generally only represent the best-case scenarios.

I remember a phone call with a dean of admissions who was trying to recruit me to his law law school. I said his school sounded expensive, and asked him what more he could find for me in the way of scholarships. He said “you can work as a summer clerk. Law firms pay $2000 a week to their clerks. You’ll be fine.”

It wasn’t a lie (and a few students did make that), but it was very, very bad planning advice. Fortunately, I was suspicious, but he was a schmoozer and I bet he pulls in a lot of less perceptive students, luring them into huge piles of debt.

So Ms. Wolf’s counterposition, when weighed against the misleading optimism of law schools, will create a better balance for prospective students.
Posted by Jim - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 59 minutes ago

To Arturo,

$80K for an entry level government job??? Are you serious? Please share with the rest of us.
Posted by current law student - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 57 minutes ago

As a current student, I understand the problem with the incurring debt and economic set backs. But my question is this: Did Kristen exhaust all of her options while in law school? Many schools have career services departments that will help you network in the legal community. I am finding that the only way to get a good job in this “fantastic” economy is to build and create relationships with others because many of the jobs just are not posted if they are available.
Furthermore, if she wasn’t proactive about te job market, the question is why? You have to have drive to do this type of work. If she just defaulted to the legal profession because she ad nothing better to do with her time, of course she is not going to get paid for it. Her heart wasn’t in it from the start.
Posted by Allison - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 55 minutes ago

Some really excellent points have been made in the comments above. I agree that law school and practice of law isn’t for those who don’t know what else to do. Perhaps it is also time to stop trying to use it as a career booster given the expense in getting a JD. I’ve often thought that America could benefit from the European “gap year” concept where young people take a year off to travel and do public service before furthering their educations. It seems like it might stem a lot of the hysteria we inflict on young adults about their ability (inability) to find meaningful and interesting well-paid work without higher education. It might also help people find their focus so that we don’t have a young Ms. Neil attending law school as a “default” and racking up such a debt.
I can’t help but think that it is also part of this new debtor’s society that lines up our young like so many lemmings willing to throw themselves over the cliff of $100K, $200K debt. Anyone with basic math skills can add up the annual debt over three years (the principal before the interest) and do so before signing the papers. As one astute commentator pointed out the JD from state is as good as the jd from ivy after the first few jobs.
My own expereince was knowing I wanted to go law school as I graduated from undergrad but taking a few years to work in the big wide world while I figured out how to pay for it. It was painful to turn down a top tier school to attend state but I came out with very little debt and by the age of 40 have paid it all off. I feel for those still struggling under that mountain of debt but wonder why they didn’t explore a less expensive alternative. And Arturo - gov’t jobs don’t start at $80K - I wish - nor do legal services at $40K, but they are greatly gratifying and meaningful jobs IF you can afford to work for so little. I’m grateful everyday that I can, just as I am grateful my parents taught me effective debt management.
As long as law school is in demand the prices will remain high and rise. It is only when law schools deflate back down to attendees who truly intend to practice law that the demand may lower and so the prices. Until then young people who are interested in law school should be encouraged to consider why they want to attend and to be better consumers and choose schools they can truly afford.
Posted by 2nd Career & 4th Tier - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 53 minutes ago

Check out Post #3 by Bracewell, then look at Juana’s Post #45. Do you see the difference? Bracewell advocates “living” instead of “defaulting.” Juana is a victim of her own lack of direction. I feel sorry for no one who attends law school because they had “nothing better to do.” Quit crying, pay your bills, and recognize that you are much better off than the poor schmoe who’s spot you’ve taken.
Posted by J - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 48 minutes ago

The author is right on point with her comments. My advice to anyone seeking a law degree: unless you love the law, find another career. I loved law school; love the way it has helped me in my thought process, but financially, I would have been WAY ahead of the game if I became a plumber!
Posted by BigLaw Associate - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 48 minutes ago

All you people defending law school make me laugh. For the vast majority of people, law school is a TERRIBLE investment. Most people pay huge sums for the privilege of making a very, very average wage. The ROI is pitiful.

For those that do make the huge money, that gravy train doesn’t go on forever. Only a very small % of BigLaw associates make partner at their firms, the rest get shown the door and end up in small practices, in-house or leave the profession entirely. On top of that, any job that pays well is likely to be amazingly unrewarding. Do you think they pay you all that money to have fun and save the world? No, they pay you to look through mind-numbing documents for hours on end.

Also, if you think you’re going to “do justice” and “help people” when you get out, good luck with that. I think you’ll find it harder that you think even if you don’t care about the money (which will be next to nothing).

If you want to go to law school and can do it w/o taking on huge debts, fine. I still think it’s a crap profession, but at least you won’t be an indentured servant. Otherwise, you better get into a top 5 or 10 school or be damn sure that you can be at the top of your class in a lower ranked school. Also, who goes to low ranked private schools? Some of these T2 and T3 private schools cost just as much as HYS. Just say no!
Posted by Mark Pitchford - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 48 minutes ago

I think that the negativity comes from being lied to.

The law schools and legal publications (ABA Journal, I’m looking at you) only contribute articles and factoids extolling 200k starting salaries and 500k bonuses. In reality, the median starting salary is probably 30k with a 1k Christmas bonus.

When you lie to people, you should expect them to be upset.

The other day, I was told that new hires make 160k in our area by someone outside the profession. So I asked where to apply, but of course, the commentor didn’t know where. I work for one of the huge firms in STL, and we don’t make anything near that.
Posted by James Luath - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes ago

Mr. High (56): What’s ironic about people graduating first in their class receiving scholarships? It is called a “scholarship,” after all, not a bursary or charity. Any university worth its salt will want to attract the best, which it does by offering “scholarships.” This has been the practice for centuries, so I fail to see the “irony.”

As for Ms. Wolf, she needs to stop blaming the “system” or her law school and take responsibility for her choices. The average salary she was drawn to is just that - an average. Knowing, as she presumably did, that the highest paid graduates made $125,000 (at that time - $160,000 now), and that the average salary was $85,000, some simple math would have told her that quite a few graduates don’t make very much money. It was then up to her to decide whether she thought it she would be one of the higher paid graduates or the lower paid graduates.

Her other options were to (1) attend a top tier school where a high salary is virtually guaranteed to all who want it, (2) attend a public law school, where tuition is significantly lower, (3) work before attending law school so she could defray the cost with her savings, (4) or keep hustling for government and in-house positions that pay more than she is currently making, if still less than the top law firms, and stick with it instead of quitting and discouraging potentially more intelligent or harder working people from applying to law school.

For most of my friends, law school cost about $150,000 (approximately $35,000 plus housing times three years). This was funded by a combination of federal loans (now locked in at around 2%) and private loans. Also, during law school, many worked for law firms in the summer, making between $20,000-$30,000 for at least one, and sometimes two, summers. That alone cut the cost of law school by more than a third.

On graduation, most chose jobs paying $125,000 or more (because they did their research and chose schools where they could be confident of receiving such offers) while some accepted low paying public service positions for which the law schools would repay most (often more than 80%) of their loans for them. This last point is important for potential law students to consider - if you want to work for a non-profit or government agency after graduation, which is some of the most interesting and rewarding legal work, choose a school with a generous loan repayment program. My law school, for one, was extremely generous and encouraged students to pursue these jobs, even though they brought down the “average starting salary” for the graduating class.

Of course no one should attend law school unless they want to be a lawyer, for at least some period of time, but that is true of any qualification. Would you spend two years and tens of thousands of dollars training to be a chef if you didn’t want to cook? Or go to medical school if you didn’t want to be a doctor? Why, then, do so many people (including, apparently, Ms. Wolf) think that they should go to law school if they aren’t sure they want to be a lawyer?

Some common sense, research, hard-work, and persistence is in order for any signficant investment of time and money. Ms. Wolf apparently failed on this front; prospective law students should learn that lesson from Ms. Wolf’s experience, not that law school is a bad career move.
Posted by Bill - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 44 minutes ago

I think there are a lot of interesting perspectives here. Everyone seems to relate to their own experience as what they did (and ask that they be commended) or what they should have done (and ask that you take their word for it). With that being said, one person points out that the practice of law is not about the money it is about the love of the job, which I think should resonate with us all, if you really think about. I have a six-figure job, which I worked my ass off to get and it was not right out of law school either. I also have a six-figure law school debt, which I have seemingly made a very little dent in over the past 3 years. I don’t think the issue is how much money you are making, but rather, how much a law school eduction costs, which is extremely ridiculous, given that there are schools out there like the University of Georgia (36th with US News) which offers in-state tuition for about $10,000. My father once told me that the key to making money is to find a job/career that you really love and then to find a way for someone to pay you a lot of money to do it. If you are not happy in your current situation, maybe you should ask, whether you are in a career that you really love. If not, to use an overly used cliche, maybe you should think “outside the box” as to what you can do with your law degree or another practice area that you might enjoy. Law school, the practice of law and life in general is about drive and determination. You make your place in this world by working hard and going after what you want. There is no one to blame for making poor choices, but the person that makes them. I would go on about all of the hardship that I endured over the last six years, and my constant struggle to overcome adversity, but why over play it? I am where I am right now, because of the choices that I made. You can’t dwell on the past, but you can learn from it. If I am happy, great . . . . if I am not, then I need to reevaluate what my goals are in life and to start working towards them. Not to be over philosophical, but the key to life is not work or even how much money you make, it is being happy with who you are and what you are. That might seem overly optimistic when you are staring at a mountain of debt and you have bill collectors calling you daily (had that experience too), but at some point you need to pick yourself up and start moving forward. As one great philosopher once said, “Patience is a virtue of only great men (and women).” Like I said, it is all about the drive and determination . . . .
Posted by Bill - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes ago

#74 is right, but I will go further. Law school advertising borders on fraud. How is giving someone $200k in loans at 10% to go to any of the numerous low ranked private law school any different than giving someone a $300k loan to buy a house that sold for $150k 12 months ago w/o any proof of income? In both cases, the underlying value simply does not exists. It is smoke and mirrors and marketing. The market is flooded and defaults are coming on these vastly overvalued legal educations.
Posted by Amy - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes ago

I graduated from a top law school 8 years ago. Perhaps I am out of touch, but my law school debt was only $70K and my monthly payments are very low. I hardly notice that I have a student loan. While I did work at a Big Firm for five years, I opted for a lifestyle move to government which cut my salary in half. It is definitely foolish to spend any amount of money on an education without any goals. However, for those that are interested in practicing law, perhaps they should more carefully consider the price tags and aid packages available at the schools they are considering.
Posted by SB - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 39 minutes ago

Already been said a few times, but ... I went to law school, about 10 years older than most of the other students, with the understanding that a law degree was a LONG-TERM investment. I sit with about $75k in student loan debt, and a small firm, small town job that doesn’t pay much, but I love what I do and I make enough to support my family. I feel sorry for anyone who is “disappointed” or “disillusioned” enough with their choice to go to law school to tell everyone not to do it. I have had other careers and other jobs, some I got to make ends meet while going to school, but most I got because that’s what I wanted to do. I personally would NEVER choose a career or profession based solely on salary expectations, prestige, or “having nothing else better to do,” and those who do deserve the disappointment they find. The moral of this story, which has already been told by posters older and wiser than me, is: Do what you enjoy doing, and the money will find you.
Posted by Math is Fun - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 38 minutes ago

Hey, 82. $20-30k is not 1/3 of $150k. Also, did you not pay taxes on that?
Posted by James Luath - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 34 minutes ago

Hey, 87. $30K x two summers = $60K, which is more than 1/3 of $150,000.

Taxes aren’t much when your annual income is only $30k and you can deduct some fees, loan payments, etc.

Math IS fun. Taxes aren’t!

H
Posted by DM - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 34 minutes ago

I have to say I reject most of the comments about loving being a lawyer, being willing to work hard, etc. This is based on your personal experience, and a general survey shows that your experience is not the norm. I busted it at law school, despite major problems within my family, left a job making 120K, have major industry contacts, and I know how to network. None of this matters. Maybe it worked for you, but for every person out there it worked for, there are 30 it didn’t, and we aren’t dumb, nor are we ignorant. You got a good job, you are lucky. That’s it. As for me, I was an entrepreneur, and even know I have the ability to bring to a firm deals that are worth upwards of $300 million. Hell if they seem to care though. Honesty, I’ll start my own firm, and then they can cry about why they didn’t hire me while I take their clients away.
Posted by SRG - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes ago

If you went into the law for the money then I am sorry for you. Some of us went into the law to help others. I was fully aware of the huge debt I would be saddled with for the rest of my life, and the substantial crimp in my lifestyle due to having little or no extra money. But the last two years have been dedicated to the public interest and I have gotten more trial and legal experience than many of my friends who went into Big Law. They are often amazed at the responsibility and discretion I have, whereas they are still answering to the junior partners for every little move. I had to grow up fast as a lawyer and it was worth it. Going to law school is a big decision, but for some the law is a true calling, especially if you have it in you to serve others. It is not fair to discourage people from the law just because you are bitter. But it is perfectly helpful to offer advice and anecdotes about your experience. The most important thing is to have realistic expectations about what the job market looks like for law grads and full disclosure about the level of debt. If you can handle that and you actually want to practice law, then good luck with your endeavors.
Posted by aj - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes ago

If you want a lot of money -guaranteed- go to med school.

If you love the law- go to law school - your return on investment will be job satisfaction. Unfortunately, you ‘ll most likely be saddled with debt, but you’ll be happy. Give up the pipe dream of a new car, 3000 sq. ft. home, etc.
Posted by Dave - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 24 minutes ago

I started my studies at a mid-tier law school after an 8 year stint in the military. Upon realizing I would not be graduating at the top of my class (this epiphany occurred while perusing the grade board after first semester finals), I concluded I could not count on a respectable starting salary that comes with top performance. So, instead, I followed the second path to success in life (it’s not what you know, but who you know) and took a low-paying internship in the tax department of a large local corporation. The contacts I met there helped me get an internship at one of the Big 4 Accounting firms. Subsequently, one of the ladies I worked for at the first internship offered me an audit defense position in the tax department of a fortune 100 corporation.

My undergrad degree iis not in accounting (or business related at all for that matter). I went through school with a wife and three children. And the entire endeavor was funded purely by us; no help from scholarships or family. All this rambling is leading to this one truth (a truth for me anyway), Success is a matter of perspective. I have about $65k in student loan debt. I am in a position that will never pay me a $160k per year salary. And I have psychotherapy bills from my law school experience that will go on forever (just kidding about that part). And I would not change a thing. Keep your chins up folks. We live in a country where opportunity abounds. Keep plugging.
Posted by Recent Grad Western States - 7 months, 1 week, 4 days, 9 hours, 22 minutes ago

I’m not disgruntled with my choice to go to law school. I’m disgruntled that BIg Law claims there’s a huge demand for lawyers, raises salaries to exorbitant amounts, pays 1L’s $3K a week, and won’t give a shot to someone like me, a former 5 year Congressional Staffer who volunteers with ABA, worked my ass off and finished in the middle of the pack.

I’m 6 months out of law school, have put out over 100 resumes, and have five interviews that went well, but the economy is tanking and they didn’t bring me on. I’ve hit the Hill, Federal, nonprofit, trade associations, gov’t af

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