Law Schools Won’t Covet Place on This Ranking

Law Schools

Law Schools Won’t Covet Place on This Ranking

Posted Nov 27, 2007, 12:12 pm CDT
By Debra Cassens Weiss

Some people just don’t achieve the successes of their parents. The same can be said of law schools.

TaxProf Blog has created a new ranking of law schools that are ranked significantly lower than their parent universities.

At the top of the list is Tulsa, whose ranking has the greatest negative variance from that of its parent university. Blog author Paul Caron of the University of Cincinnati College of Law crunched the numbers based on percentile rankings from U.S. News & World Report.

Next on the list are Dayton, Syracuse, Michigan State, and Penn State-Dickinson.

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Posted by Teresa McGuire - 10 months, 2 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 25 minutes ago

Suddenly I feel the need to come to the aid of my alma maters - both of them: MSU and MSU College of Law (formerly the Detroit College of Law). There is not doubt that the main cause of the discrepancy is the recent merger of a private law school with a public university. The integration is incomplete, so the jury should still be out. It is too soon for an announcement of the verdict. With the accoutrements of a Big Ten School, the law school, in due time, will come into its own and make us all real proud. The prof who created this nebulous ranking needs to write a law review article or something useful.
Posted by Leonard - 10 months, 2 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 3 minutes ago

I am also a graduate of MSU College of Law. Because the taxprof averages assigned schools in Tier 3 and Tier 4 the percentile ranking of the midpoint of those tiers (because, as he notes, the U.S. News does not disclose the rank of those schools), it does not take into account that MSU Law sits on the border between Tier 2 and Tier 3. McGeorge School of Law, which is ranked #100 by the US News has a peer assessment score of 2.0, assessment score by lawyers/judges at 2.2, and average GPA/LSAT score at 3.15-3.59 and 155-160. MSU Law, in contrast, has a peer assessment score of 2.2, assessment score by lawyers/judges at 3.0, an average GPA that is .01 lower than McGeorge and the same LSAT score 25th/75th percentile (155-160). Other variables that the US News Rankings take into consideration are comparable to those in the 2nd tier.
Posted by David - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 10 hours, 32 minutes ago

Any lawyer who has worked with students and grads from both so called “Tier 4” schools and so called “Tier 1” schools can tell you that the ranking of one’s law school has NOTHING to do with ability to practice law. The “ranking” system serves to preserve exactly the type of prejudice lawyers should be trying to eliminate. The ABA’s continued adherence to the ranking system is merely an attempt to maintain its (inevitably shrinking) control over legal education. Worse, “ranking” undergraduate schools over their accompanying law schools just plain absurd in terms of stats, because the former vastly outnumber the latter. Statistics are useful up to a point, but TaxProfBlog is really hurting its credibility by publishing this type of stuff. The ABA Journal should stop focusing on news releases calculated merely to make headlines in the mainstream media (e.g. “rankings” and “perks") and instead provide its readers with REAL news about the profession.
Posted by Steve Perkins - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 9 hours, 37 minutes ago

Amen to that, David. This website is a broken record, that only plays about four sounds repeatedly:

1) Stories about crazy perks thrown at students graduating in the top 10% of a top 10 school.
2) Stories about grueling job searches and temp work for the rest of us.
3) The rankings, rankings, RANKINGS! that drive categories #1 and #2 above.
4) An article bemoaning how white and male the profession is (sometimes tied in with rankings).

If you’ve read one week’s ABA Journal email, you’ve read them all.
Posted by Georgianne - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 8 hours, 32 minutes ago

I am just happy that my law school AND its parent university are considered by the world to be mediocre---keeps my fantastic law school off the list and under the radar.
Posted by Matt - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 8 hours, 16 minutes ago

As a recent alum of MSU, I have to agree with others that this article is pretty useless. If anything, the students I met at MSU Law School were actually quite a bit more dedicated and “accomplished” during their undergraduate years than the MSU body at large, and that trend has only continued. I think all this article proves is that the schools at the very top (Ivys, etc.) are both elite for undergraduate and graduate work, and maybe those at the bottom are consistently mediocre. Beyond that, not much to take away from this list. Typical ABA journal marketing, though. As someone said earlier, I can always count on this e-mail merely recycling the same topics every month, just annoying a different segment of the population.
Posted by Harvey - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 7 hours, 49 minutes ago

Sure, but that’s the LawProfs poll. If you look at the Law Writers poll or USA today or LSCS (Law School Championship Series) you’ll see quite a different ranking. What about strength of conference? MSU competes against Michigan, Illinois and Northwestern.

When Harvard goes against Michigan and Michigan loses a close decision, why should Michigan drop 10 places in the polls?

There, I think I’ve expended all the intellectual energy this poll deserves.
Posted by Fred Hait - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 7 hours, 37 minutes ago

I graduated from Dickinson long before Penn State absorbed the school. Very few of my clients even ask where I went to law school, much less inquire about its so-called ranking.
Posted by Per - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 7 hours, 20 minutes ago

I really don’t know what the U.S. News rankings have to do with getting a good legal education anyway. I really wonder just what use they are. If they don’t provide any indication of the quality of the school, just what is the purpose? Obviously to sell magazines. That’s pretty much the way they write their “news” too. Too bad they have the undivided attention of the ABA. I see no sense in kissing the backside of the U.S. News. It’s not even a legal publication.What’s that all about? I would think an organization like the ABA would have a higher purpose, and I am a little disappointed.
Posted by John Rooney - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 7 hours ago

My bachelor’s is from Illinois and my JD from Harvard. I’ve noticed that Illinois’ has a better ranking in engineering and Harvard has a better ranking than Illinois’ law school. What am I going to do with the info?
Posted by Kathy - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 6 hours, 59 minutes ago

I agree with Fred. The only people that are hung up on were a school is rank, is the administration and Board of Directors of the school...it helps draw new students....The client only cares about your ability to handle their case and do it well for a reasonable fee.
Posted by Dan - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes ago

Glad my law school, at the guidance of our long-serving Dean, decided long ago to say #@*^ you to the rankings and just focus on provided a high quality education within the school’s mission of serving our community.
Posted by Joe Hood - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 4 hours, 52 minutes ago

Who cares.
Posted by Roy - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 2 hours, 5 minutes ago

I guess there is a corollary report in a publication aimed at undergraduate colleges or programs telling them which schools and programs ranked significantly lower than their affiliated law schools. Pity those poor schools! Also, I’m twice as good as my brother at basketball but half as good as him at squash, but my relative ranking on squash is relatively higher so if you divide one by the other I’m . . . Oh, forget it!
Posted by anon - 10 months, 1 week, 6 days, 1 hour, 45 minutes ago

The Rutgers situation is unique. There are two fully separate law schools affiliated with the major state university located at the local commuter schools. The only university system that is close would be the Cal system (although UCLA and Cal are both major research institutions). Rutgers should really do an assessment of both institutions and start forcing them to collaborate or stop under funding the law schools. They both place well in Jersey. RUL-N places well in NYC and Philly. RUL-C places well in Philly. Why not aggregate their career services and other services? They probably compete more than they should.
Posted by eag - 10 months, 1 week, 5 days, 21 hours, 35 minutes ago

About ten years ago someone did a study to see how reliable the law school rankings really were as to reputation. The same groups of people were surveyed. One of the results of this study was that most of the well respected univerisities had well respected law schools. The only problem was that not all of them actually had law schools.

While in law school, a friend spent a year visiting at a top 5 law school. He said that the classes there were much easier than at our 3rd tier school. Once you get into the top ranked school, guess they can’t really be too tough on you since high failure and dropout rates reflect poorly on their rankings. My school dropped to the 4th tier when the rankings were restructured. It is also on the TaxProf Blog list.
Posted by H branca - 10 months, 1 week, 5 days, 9 hours, 56 minutes ago

I have just graduated from a lower tier school (although on the rise). I was able to take a few classes at the end ofmy 1st year at a much higher rated law school. The classes were taught by a prof. from a top-rated school and had a pre-requisite which I had not yet taken but the prof. allowed me in anyway. Since my credits transferred on a pass/fail basis, I must admit to using little effort. Imagine my disappointment when I scored A’s (I worked too hard). My point is that the higher ranking schools seem to hand out the grades like candy while my home school made it a struggle. So much for rankings being a fair measure of anything…
Posted by Chris - 10 months, 1 week, 4 days, 20 hours, 55 minutes ago

This kind of ranking is absolutely absurd. Outside of the normal arguments against ranking things, it first assumes that law schools are ranked on the same criteria as undergrad school, and further assumes that a disparity between the rankings mean anything.

I think the ranking we *really* need to see is the law school’s ranking compared to the ranking of the parent university’s football team. Because, if there’s one thing that indicates how good a school is, it’s the football team.
Posted by Jackie - 10 months, 1 week, 3 days, 22 hours ago

I agree with Chris part of the reason I chose to persue my undergrad and law education at the University of Nebraska was because of the reputation our football team had… I emphasize had. I only hope we can get another national championship before I graduate so I can get a job at that top firm I’ve been eyeing.

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