Sect Protests Ranch Raid; Texas Wonders What to Do With 416 Kids

Constitutional Law

Sect Protests Ranch Raid; Texas Wonders What to Do With 416 Kids

Posted Apr 9, 2008, 05:25 pm CDT
By Martha Neil

As additional details were revealed about the child abuse concerns that led to an unprecedented raid by Texas authorities of a ranch run by followers of a fringe Mormon leader who advocates polygamy, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints contended that its constitutional rights had been violated by the search. The state has reportedly taken 416 children living there into its own custody, and officials say a number of teens are pregnant and may have been sexually abused.

Counsel for the sect complained in state court today that the search was at least in part unconstitutional, and sought to have evidence obtained there thrown out, reports the Associated Press.

Evidence from the multi-day search is being sealed, and a special master has been appointed to determine whether it was properly seized, according to the Houston Chronicle. The newspaper says District Judge Barbara Walther, who granted an initial search warrant, urged both sides to try to reach an agreement on how search issues will be handled by the special master.

Meanwhile, the Washington Post provides a detailed account of the whispered cell phone call from the not-yet-located complainant that led to the raid. Just 16 years old and already pregnant for the second time by her husband, the unnamed teen "spoke of teenage girls, some as young as 13, being forced to have sex with older men for the purpose of bearing their children. She said she was the seventh 'spiritual' wife of a 49-year-old man. She described beatings by him as so vicious that one time several of her ribs had been broken," the newspaper recounts.

Further details are discussed in an earlier ABAJournal.com post.

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Posted by Send Them Home - 6 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 2 minutes ago

There are some perfectly fine houses back at the YFZ ranch...There has be NO PROOF of abuse, only speculation. Just because they don’t live like other religions or cultures, doesn’t mean they don’t have rights. Give them back their rights and stop tearing families apart.
Posted by msg - 6 months, 3 days, 19 hours, 54 minutes ago

Are you serious?! Pregnant teens that have never seen the outside? How do you think they got that way? This is abuse pro se! How outragious to even think of sending them back to that abusive cult!
Posted by msg - 6 months, 3 days, 18 hours, 23 minutes ago

Re: above comment - I meant per se not pro se. Sorry.
Posted by Danny Haszard - 6 months, 3 days, 16 hours, 4 minutes ago

The Jehovah’s Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies protected men who sexually abused children for many years.
Frederick McLean is one of the most-wanted fugitives in the United States
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/
Posted by Stone - 6 months, 2 days, 23 hours, 42 minutes ago

It is not abusive to keep your kids away from influences you view as hurtful or dangerous. I have no problem with a family that does not want their children being exposed to the sex, drugs and rock’n’roll of the outside world before adulthood. Obviously its not okay to force girls into marriage or to commit acts of violence against women, but one man is accused of doing that to one teenage girl. At some point in time, those 400+ kids are going to need to be allowed back home to their strange but not illegal lifestyle (no rule against adults having multiple sexual partners, no rule against having kids). If that doesn’t happen, the government better have a good reason why all of them (not just one or even ten) are in danger, especially since that abusive man has left Texas. This country should not be in the business of busting up rogue religious sects without hard evidence of wide-spread abuse.
Posted by Alt2ning - 6 months, 2 days, 22 hours, 59 minutes ago

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” (Can’t lay my mouse on the author of that line.) These are extraordinary claims - of widespread statutory rape, rape, polygamy, and child abuse. On top of that, there appear to be allegations of obstruction of justice by the individuals encountered. Each one of those claims deserves a thorough investigation, and resolution. Each claim requires proof, which may be difficult to find in a community where it is difficult to identify who is who. The line between religious freedom and protection of children from coercion is a hazy one. How far does the state have the right (or duty) to intervene when the “religious” sect practices a policy of preventing their children from knowing about, or being exposed to, the “outside” world? Isn’t it all of our responsibility to ensure that ALL our citizens are educated sufficiently to equip them to be functional adults? And how do we define and enforce that?
Posted by You gotta be kidding! - 6 months, 2 days, 22 hours, 45 minutes ago

Unbelievable! Last time I ckeck, in most states, it is stutory rape for a person aged 18 and up to engage in sexual relations with a person aged between 14 and and less than 17. If that 49 year old prick has been marrying and having sex with girls under 17 years, he ought to go to prison, and the parents of those girls ought to be prosecuted and convicted for failure to protect. They all should be registered sex offenders, sickos!
What kind of world do we live in where someone can use religion to engage in illegal activities and hurt hundreds of people in the process? Why is it that there should be a public outcry when a woman gets stoned for not being a virgin in a muslim country, but we are allowing things just as sickening to take place in our own backyard! Charge all the adults, they do not deserve to have children. Give me a break!!!
Posted by Fourth Amendment - 6 months, 2 days, 22 hours, 20 minutes ago

The ratio of response to complaint is impressive. A telephoned complaint from an unlocatable someone who claims to be an abused teen is the reasonable basis for searching numerous homes & dislocating 400 plus kids? I think this is unparalleled. If a teen claims he was sexually abused by a priest/preacher and that he knows of other teens who have been abused by other priest/preachers in the church, how many homes do we have a reasonable basis to search and how many kids do we take into state custody? Apparently hundreds. Maybe it depends on the religion of the priests/preachers in questions.
Posted by You should know better - 6 months, 2 days, 21 hours, 3 minutes ago

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not part of the Mormon church. The FLDS church split from the Mormon church in the 1930s over the issue of polygamy. Igornace such as that displayed in the first sentence of this article continues to breed prejudice against the Mormon church.
Posted by David C. LaPlante - 6 months, 2 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes ago

The government has no right to separate children from their families by taking 400+ children into state custody based upon one unsubstantiated allegation of sexual abuse. The only reason the govt is getting away with this is that no one wants to stand up and support polygamists. Don’t any of you so-called liberals care about constitutional protections? Was this a proper search and seizure? Should children be separated from their familes withour due process when there is no probable cause or allegation of abuse? Religious-homeschooling familes both Catholic and Protestant (and other religious traditions as well) should be very concerned. Our children are purposefully shelterted from our materialistic popular culture-what pretext will the govt. use to raid our homes?
Posted by JS - 6 months, 2 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes ago

Remember that we have the freedom of religious BELIEF in this country, not necessarily religious EXPRESSION. For example, some people have deeply held religious beliefs that they should be permitted to sacrifice a member of their community for religious holidays. Clearly, the expression of that belief is not permitted in this country. Similarly, the people who believe they are required to commune with their god (or gods?) by ingesting peyote were prohibited from doing so.

The people who were involved in this search can BELIEVE all they want that they are supposed to marry and have sex with girls aged 13-17, but the government has the right and the duty to stop them from EXPRESSING this belief because it’s child abuse.
Posted by Todd Rainer - 6 months, 2 days, 20 hours, 31 minutes ago

"stop tearing families apart”??? “strange but not illegal lifestyle”? “Protection from the outside world”??? Are you guys reading the same stuff I am???

A 16 year old pregnant with her second child who is the 7th (SEVENTH) “Spritual wife” of a 49 year old man? Did you read that?

This case is NOT about “lifestyle” and it’s not really even about polygamy… I don’t even have any major issues with polygamy… In fact, I support the concept but only BETWEEN CONSENTING ADULTS.

It’s called child abuse people. Sexual conduct with a child, at least in Texas, is a crime. Apparently that’s not an issue where a few of you are from… (please tell me where...I don’t want my kids living in that state.)

And to those who say this is a religious freedom issue just aren’t paying attention. This is CHILD ABUSE under the COLOR of religion and that is all it is.

This is about under aged girls being forced into sexual relationships under the guise of religion for the purpose of having children to further build the cult. (Some say they also finance the cult by having this under aged children mothers go on welfare, though I’ve never actually seen anything like that mentioned in the news).

Warren Jeffs is a scumbag who got what he had coming to him and has a second (third and fourth) helping on the way. If he’s not in prison for the rest of his life then there is no justice.

As to the response… I don’t think it depends on the religion per say, but it does depend on the actions and policies of the religion’s leaders. First, before I say this, I will say that I’m not catholic, I’m not even Christian, so there is no bias for the church in any way. BUT and this is a BIG BUT… the Catholic church doesn’t have a POLICY or history of marrying off under aged children to old men. The Catholic church doesn’t operate ARMED and PATROLLED compounds that are secretive in the extreme. Their “prophet” has already been convicted and sentenced for facilitating the rape of an under aged girl. And Texas has already had one major tragedy involving a secretive, well-armed cult...everybody remember Waco? I think the response was appropriate. The fact that no one has DIED during all this mess further supports that belief.

I have to stop now… class is about to start. Let’s look at the right issues people. This is NOT about Religion, no about proper searches, not about the response to a call. It is about the abuse of children under the color of religion. And THAT should not be tolerated by anyone.
Posted by Bill - 6 months, 2 days, 20 hours, 13 minutes ago

For all of the (Amish?) posters complaining about the government interfering with religious folks’ right to keep their children away from the evil influence of the outside world, I wonder what their feelings would be if the story was identical, except occuring in a housing project. If a 16-year-old girl reported that all of her neighbors were raping young children, keeping them locked inside, and held captive against their will in a Detroit or DC ghetto. I wonder how upset all the “so-called conservatives”, to paraphrase, would be when W. was likely given credit for sending in the cavalry to protect those poor, innocent children.
Posted by Rick - 6 months, 2 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes ago

"Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer is an excellent book that explores splinter Mormon sects such as this.
Posted by sb - 6 months, 2 days, 20 hours, 1 minute ago

To Send Them Home: Comments like yours lend support to requiring readers to pass a written test on the issue and the article before posting. This issue has been front-page news for several days now; in the future, you may want to educate yourself before posting conclusory comments that ignore the vast weight of the facts and the evidence.

Speaking of ignorance, thank you, “You should know better,” for being the first to speak out against the media’s apparent implication that these wackos have anything to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). Allow me to be the second. “Fringe Mormon leader”?? No, no, no, no, no. That statement is offensive, false, misleading, inflammatory, ignorant, and just plain mean-spirited. Please redact that wording, Ms. Neil.
Posted by duh - 6 months, 2 days, 19 hours, 12 minutes ago

why can’t the kids stay with mom in the house until they figure out which men are the statutory rapists, then make those dudes pay child support and/or serve jail time? why in the world do we want the state to further screw up those kids’ lives?
Posted by This is sad. - 6 months, 2 days, 16 hours, 54 minutes ago

CNN reported that many moms at these places are on welfare as single parents because their marriages to already married men are illegal. Your tax dollars at work.

I also totally agree with Todd. This has nothing to do with religion, religious belief, religious expression, whatever you want to call it – all of that is a huge red herring. Rape is a crime, and child rape is one of the most despicable. If a bunch of thirty year-old women want to marry the same sixty year-old man, I could really care less, but very different standards apply to children. I have mixed feelings about the raid because I am not sure that all 400 kids were abused. That said, the legality of police action will be taken up in court, and truthfully, I am having a hard time mustering sympathy for any of these parents, although I don’t think any of us can generalize about whether the raid will ultimately be “good” or “bad” for each child, as if it were that simple.
Posted by to David C. LaPlante-Paranoid - 6 months, 2 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes ago

Nobody is advocating the removal of your children from you, Mr. David C. LaPlante, simply because you are home-schooling them. (Thanks, however, for sharing your paranoid conspiracy theories, you’ve done a great job persuading me that you are a superior source of knowledge and education for them.) Yet, I do hope that the authorities take your kids, as is their right, if they suspect that you are systematically raping them. Mr. LaPlante, your call upon the “so-called liberals to be outraged by the constitutional violations” is ridiculous. Since when and in what universe is child rape protected by the 4th amendment? Rape and child abuse are not “pretexts,” Mr. LaPlante, and your criticism of the government’s actions based on your paranoid and self-centered evaluation of the facts is contemptible. This was not a raid on good Christians who shy away from the glories of modernity; this was a raid on a cult of child abusers.
Posted by R - 6 months, 2 days, 16 hours, 21 minutes ago

I’m writing about Warren Jeffs being described as a “fringe Mormon leader.” On the one hand, the description is understandably offensive to modern-day Mormons: the church hasn’t practiced polygamy in generations. It’d be as if someone who practiced burning of eccentric women as witches were described as a “fringe Presbyterian leader.” On the other hand, Jeffs and his followers do purport to follow the Book of Mormon and the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so an argument can also be made that the reference is akin to referring to breakaway groups who insist on the Latin Mass as “fringe Catholics.” Fortunately, the Mormon Church has developed such a strong reputation over the years that no one with half a brain nowadays believes that modern-day Mormons practice polygamy let alone the outright child abuse Jeffs promoted.
Posted by Jim - 6 months, 2 days, 16 hours, 13 minutes ago

To Stone: It is most certainly illegal for adults to have sex with someone under the statutory age for consent. Don’t bother telling me that there is an exception if the adult and minor are married, because a man cannot legally be married to more than one spouse at any point in time. Therefore, any marriage, excluding the one to the first spouse, would not be recognized in any state, even Utah had to renounce polygamy in order to join the Union. Therefore, it is all but certain that we are dealing with numerous counts of rape and other felonious sexual offenses
Posted by eLLe - 5 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 17 hours, 6 minutes ago

Isn’t this an ABA site?

Are these really attorney’s writing these comments?

I hope not.
Posted by MissT - 5 months, 3 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes ago

What is going on with the world i wish what all came out on tv was in this story for one it was also stste that there husband’s decided weather or not they got into heaven, and that it was a sin to cut there hair and they had to wash there husband’s feet with there hair what is the world coming too really? i mean that’s not even where it ends they also stated the youngest marriage was two 8 year old’s ok that’s enough and the parent’s arent even really parent’s i say shut it down and prosecute!!!!!!!!

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