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1. Posted by CJ - 11 months, 4 days, 19 hours, 15 minutes ago

   But nobody will dare say the truth that being a female minority is acutally a huge plus to getting a high paying associate job. It makes the firm look good to be more diverse and from and HR POV they are getting a double benefit, not just a minority to the rolls, but a female to boot. So, given to equal candidates, the female/minority will get the job.  However, once at the firm serving the purpose of HR, unfortunatly they then tend to be marginalized. Be who cares? Take the money.

2. Posted by arm904 - 11 months, 4 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes ago

   It’s absolutely untrue that given equal candidates the female/minority will get the job. That’s just something we say is true to make ourselves feel better. Second, “take the money”? “Who cares?” Being marginalized is only something you care about if you’re actually marginalized, or if you have more than a limited perspective that considers money to be the answer to all problems. Most of us, however, know the truth. Being marginalized sucks. And money isn’t everything. Right, Britney?

3. Posted by anon - 11 months, 4 days, 17 hours, 22 minutes ago

   I think I know what #1 was trying to say. The point isn’t on whether minority women have the edge or not. It’s that however firms try to recruit us, they only care about us BEING there to reflect well in the numbers, and not how we do once we are in. That is the marginalization. I think #1 was being ironic and sadly, realistic. If female minority attorneys can’t get any mentoring, then at least they can take the money. Which is exactly why they all leave the practice, or at least the big firms.

4. Posted by pd - 11 months, 4 days, 17 hours, 16 minutes ago

   Apparently this survey didn’t take into account any attorneys who don’t work at big firms, and therefore don’t make the money, but still have to bill the same number of hours. Money may not be everything, but it sure helps ease the pain.

5. Posted by Notta - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes ago

   I agree with #2 and #3.  It’s funny how those who don’t have to deal with the issues we put up with, tell us to just get over it.  Unfortunately, this is our reality, and as #3 stated, the reason why we end up leaving the big firms.  Interestingly, many of the problems experienced by minority females in law firms are punctuated by the success (sometimes) of our male counterparts.  Majority attorneys tend to look at the differing success levels between minority men and women, and attribute the lack of success by minority women to a perceived failure to perform.  However, at the end of the day, people forget that minority women attorneys are also mothers and caregivers—and unlike many of the male attorneys, we don’t have wives taking care our families and homes.

6. Posted by midlevel - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 52 minutes ago

   As a mid-level associate at a mid-size firm, this article, like many others on here, is just ridiculous.  Its only in this modern ultra-sensitive society we live where some groups are coddled by the mainstream that people think they are entitled to work on certain cases and entitled to get feedback.  I rarely, if ever, get feedback.  I’m not saying that its the correct way to go, but its how the partners were brought through the system, and its how they are bringing us through as well.  I also find this article amusing because some of these associates are experiencing the real world.  They may have got preferential treatment with scholarships and opportunities through undergrad and law school, but the real world differentiates those who can and cannot do the work.  I’m sure there will be tons of replies about how that is “backwards” thinking, but that would be typical because if you do not agree with the mainstream views on certain sensitive topics you are labeled an idiot, etc and not allowed to speak your viewpoint.  I have some terribly boring cases and some large, engaging cases, and that is just how it is.  Perhaps the reason these associates don’t have better work is because they, for whatever reason, underperformed on the lesser work.  However, the rest of us, do our work and don’t complain despite the fact that we have over 100K in debt from law school because we did not get a scholarship that was given to several other people with lower GPA and LSAT scores (I know this for a fact) because they had traditionally been discriminated against.  Again, I’m sure there will be arguments about how minorities deserve this and that, but the bottom line is, I didn’t discriminate against them and neither did my parents, so is it fair for my kids to have to go to a cheaper school and have less things because I didn’t get a scholarship and had to pay over 100K, and didn’t land a top job based on some credentials not attributed to GPA and LSAT scores.  Again, you can say what you want, but many schools have on campus recruiting policies where the firms have to interview a certain number of minority associates and cannot ask about grades.

7. Posted by confused - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 42 minutes ago

   I’m a minority female midlevel associate and usually it’s only when articles like these come out that I wonder if in fact I’m being marginalized.  My experience is more of being perceived as the “model minority,” in that partners see me as the reliable, trustworthy, go the distance one so I always get the “tougher” assignments and am trusted with much more responsibility, which really just equates to alot more work and expectations from others than some of my male slacker counterparts.  It’s hard to win, either way.  I wouldn’t mind so much just slacking my way up the partnership ladder if I could.  As a parting thought, let’s keep in mind that it’s a two way relationship.  If a minority female associate is constantly asking for more challenging assignments and following up with (we all know we have to hound those partners) mentors and even then getting rebuffed, that’s when we know we have a serious problem.  If a partner asks an associate to handle a difficult issue and gets some resistence the first time around, that partner is less likely to seek that associate out again, regardless of what sex or color that person is.

8. Posted by Wayne Isaacks - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 40 minutes ago

   Frankly, I suspect many firms may be overlooking talent and drive in minority women associates who have it. That is a waste of a valuable talent and performance resource if these capable and highly motivated poeple are not developed with good work and focused mentoring. One of the biggest associate problems overall seems to be a deficiency of drive and taking resposibility for excellence. Look or those who have it. Certainly many minority women do.  As for feedback - the current PC hyopocracy in our society and legal world imposes egregious penalties for frankness in coaching and evaluation. Effective feedback is blunted by the justified fear of retribution. Read the news.

9. Posted by Sue - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 40 minutes ago

   As a minority woman myself, I am confused by #5’s last sentence:  By saying that minority women attys are mothers & caregivers as well, are you saying that as an excuse for lower performance, or as an example of why minority female attys might have lower job satisfaction?  I ask b/c if it is meant as an excuse for poor performance, it certainly doesn’t help us.  I don’t want a hiring atty to look at me and assume I would be a frazzled mess b/c I have a family to take care of.

   While a law firm might want to have a few minority attys to show their “diversity,” the reality is that large law firms do not reflect the highly diverse student bodies of law schools today.  Most law firms are still largely white & male.

10. Posted by Rob - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 37 minutes ago

    I wil elaborate more but CJ no no no. I have been doing considerable research in the area of minority female emplyment and the numbers say the exact opposite of what your stating

11. Posted by jrpartner - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 28 minutes ago

    The “good work” or quality assignments are the important ones, and partners only give those assignments to the smartest and most competent associates.  While there are certainly some female minorities who are the smartest of the associate bunch, on the whole they are actually near the bottom of the associate cohort, because of the strong preference they receive in hiring. I’ve seen this first hand in both instances--I recently interviewed a black female and gave her a weak eval b/c she didnt seem nearly as bright as the average candidate I interview-but she got hired. I also recently worked on a case with a black associate and his work was very mediocre. When I mentioned it to a partner I do a lot of work with he just said “yes I’ve noticed that, I just avoid bringing him in on stuff.” Firms are under a ton of pressure to hit the numbers they need to satisfy the elites at Stanford etc, in order to not get blacklisted. Who suffers the most: the talented minority
    http://www.abajournal.com/news/top_students_hold_law_firm_trump_cards/associates who don’t get the “good assignments” b/c the majority of their peers are weak and thus partners shy away from the group as a whole.

12. Posted by Notta - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 25 minutes ago

    Sue, you misinterpreted my statement.  My statement goes to the effect that as a mother/caregiver, I can’t spend nights upon nights in the office (although I can work from home), while my male counterparts can spend every night in the office if they so choose.  My inability to constantly have a presence in the office outside of typical working hours leads to a perception by male attorneys that I don’t (or don’t want to) work as hard as others.  It has nothing to do with an “excuse for lower performance.”

    MIdlevel’s comments are indicative of the exact problems this article addresses.  Not only are they presumptuous and elitist, but they are borderline racist.  The tone of his comments reeks of bigotry and ignorance.

13. Posted by Monica M. - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 25 minutes ago

    Yawn. We’ve all heard this story before. I am a minority woman and spent 4+ years in Big Law before getting the h*ll out. Being an associate at a large law firm nowdays sucks, whether you are white, black, green or an albino. Seriously, clients moaning about the bills, partners scared sh*tless about losing them, unending pressure to bill ever more hours. The smart ones are leaving.

14. Posted by Jrs - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 19 minutes ago

    You know, I wonder if the supposed ‘surveyors’ actually do any surveying at all.  The outcomes seem to be foregone conclusions at this point.  More ultra-liberal distortions to paint the picture that every minority or woman (or, as here, the perfect storm of both) is a victim at the hands of the every oppressive white male.  I don’t buy it anymore.  If minority women are actually marginalized at this point, they do it to themselves.  We have created a culture of expectation and entitlement, and have allowed too many to hide their ineptitude and poor attitude behind the cloak of false discrimination and victimization for too long.  I can’t help the way I was born (race, gender) any more than anyone else can.  Yet, simply because I have a certain skin tone and a certain gender, I get blamed for being the one doing the marginalizing.  The backlash against this type of liberal tripe is coming, and it will be those who actually work and do their jobs, regardless of color or gender, who come out ok on the other side.  The rest of you, with the chips of entitlement on your shoulders; I hope you continue to marginalize yourselves right out of the profession.

15. Posted by BigW - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 14 minutes ago

    Firms really don’t focus on the development of any of their associates much any more.  It’s becoming a bottom line business.  If you can produce, great - we’ll work you hard and chances are we won’t make you partner, but whatever, we really don’t care about you that much one way or the other.

    Despite all the talk on this board, my guess is that many minority women think they are being marginalized because they are minorities, when the truth is they are being treated like galley slaves because all associates are treated that way.  That’s why they are less happy with their plights than those who don’t have first-hand experience with discrimination.

    For the highly skilled, utterly driven and ambitious minority associates who want more, their status as minorities is probably, on balance, helpful because of the diversity issues.

16. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 16 hours, 1 minute ago

    I have to respond to Midlevel. I too am a midlevel associate in a big law firm and I am minority female. My LSAT and SAT scores were quite high (good test taker)- much higher than my white husband’s actually. 

    I find the most appalling is the fact that you assume that all minority female got into law school and were hired as associates because of affirmative action. It is that grouping of a sect of people based on biased perceptions that is the very root of racism and bigotry.

    Most minority people will tell you that with being a minority comes a certain “Tax.” That is we have to perform way beyond you (white males) in order to be perceived as competent. And whereas a midocre white male can find success the same is not true with minorities. Your mistakes are met with a certain amount of forgiveness while our mistakes are considered disastrous and met with certain amount of “Gotcha.”

    I dont have any children and at times it scares me to have any because of people like you. It frightens me that the world still harbors negative perceptions as yours. Racism is not white sheets and racial slurs its you. Its perceived inferiority on a whole sect of people based on a few. 

    By the way, I have worked with several mediocre and incompetent white male attorneys and I have never from that experience assumed that they all are the same.

17. Posted by Big W - 11 months, 4 days, 15 hours, 57 minutes ago

    Notta - go hire a nanny if you want to make partner.  Why are you entitled to leave because you have kids?  Because you are a women?  Because you are black?  Do you think the men in your office don’t love their children and that therefore staying to the office until 10pm is no sacrifice to them?  Why are their sacrifices less valuable than yours?  I love how you embrace a complete double-standard here and then charge others with racism and ignorance.

    Equality means you have the same rights to make unpleasant, difficult choices between your career and your family.  If you want to make different choices, fine.  But don’t assume that you can put your family ahead of your career and not pay a price for it.  Being a lawyer at a big firm and billing 2,400 a year doesn’t leave a lot of room for anything else, and that’s the way it is for everybody who signs up for this.

18. Posted by jrpartner - 11 months, 4 days, 15 hours, 48 minutes ago

    Anon-
    if affirmative action and racial preferences werent part of law school admissions and law firm hiring, the problems you speak of and are disappointed about would go away. no one would assume anything about the minority group as a whole in the law firm, except that they got where they are b/c they are as smart and talented as everyone else there....so the stereotypes and racism would end. Take professional sports...I’ve never heard ppl gripe about racism in MLB/NBA/NFL in the last decade or so, even though there’s diversity there...its b/c every single person who is there DESERVES to be there and is only there b/c theyve got the talent. That’s just not the case at law schools and firms when it comes to minorities. Some are there b/c they are very talented (maybe you!) but a good chunk of them lack the top scores/gpa, which causes the group as a whole-talented ones too-to suffer.

19. Posted by Old Bald White Guy - 11 months, 4 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes ago

    Having lost a full ride academic scholarship because I was white in the 70’s and having sat next to classmates of color who were getting tutoring in English but were nonetheless accepted at a top law school in this country while I had to have a 3.8 and top 1% LSAT score to get in, I find all of this tragically amusing. In addition, I am second generation Irish and if you don’t know how the Irish were treated look it up, it’s historical fact.

    I started at what is now one of the largest international law firms based in the US, working until 2 or 3 in the morning, going home for a shower (until they put one in the office) and getting back by 7 am was not unusual.  Billing over 2400 hours a year was the norm.  You guys get paid a heck of a lot more than we did.  As for motherhood, make your choice don’t whine about it.

    Being an attorney is stressful, demanding exhausting and exhilirating.  Either succumb to the seduction of it or get out.  It must be a vocation or it will be depressing.  Finally, I find the in it for the money comment revealing.  I did not become an attorney to make money (although I own my own firm and do ok), and the reason there are so many unhappy attorneys is they don’t love what they do and they think it’s about the money.  Love and work and the money comes.  Like a marriage, if you get in for the wrong reasons you will be miserable.

20. Posted by Notta - 11 months, 4 days, 15 hours, 46 minutes ago

    Big W - Your ignorance is blatant.  It’s not about entitlement, it’s about responsibility.  Its also not about sacrifice, but again, its about responsibility.  I’m not entitled to leave, nor do I ignore the sacrifices that men make; however, as a MOTHER, I have a responsibility to care for my child.  If you choose to have a nanny raise your child, that’s on you, but I shouldn’t be punished for doing what I’m supposed to do as a parent.  I’m sad for your family that you put your career before them.

21. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 15 hours, 29 minutes ago

    JRPartner- Just like mediocre minority associates get hired so does mediocre white male associates get hired.  Then why is it that a mediocre white male does not castigate white male associates as a whole. 

    Its not just Affirmative Action that is creating the inferred inferiority of all minority associates. Its the fact that people think that a few represent the whole.  And it is overwhelmingly done with minorities. 

    Getting rid of what you perceive as affirmative action hires is not going to cure the Tax minority associates have to pay to be successful. Its not equal. In my firm of 400, I am one of the few in a very specialized area of finance. I responded to an email from a partner and was put on a conference call with a client. His response was “Wow” you actually do know a lot. Its that kind of surprise that I am competent whereas another white male jr partner I work with is also on the deal and he can barely tell his elbow from his hind parts. But not once was there any question of his competency.  I recently moved from one state to another and had to take another bar. I took and passed one of the hardest bars in the country on the first try and there was actually some apprehension about whether I would pass this other bar which a trained monkey could pass in my opinion. While not only did I work all day and study for this new bar at night. I passed and a white male counterpart in the same position failed. He, of course, was awarded an opportunity to try again.  When I was hired, it was built into my contract that I would not have a job if I failed to pass.  Sorry my friend affirmative action is not at fault for that kind of biased treatment.

    My husbad who is white gets it too. There is always an awe when he jokes around that his wife is smarter than him an almost disbelief that he actually finds insulting. (Intelligence has different measures and not all of it should be based on test scores by the way. This being said by someone who tests very well.)

22. Posted by midlevel - 11 months, 4 days, 15 hours, 8 minutes ago

    Anon, I find your response typical, because I do not agree with the prevailing opinion by the liberal media, I am a racist, bigot etc.  In fact, I am 50% Lebanese, and I have never used my “minority” status as a crutch.  I hear jokes, and gasp, from black people at my firm, about middle eastern people, but do I complain?  No.  What if it were the other way around and someone was making a joke about them?  You responsive is just as racist as any alleged (by you) racist response made on here, its just not frowned upon by society for you to degrade white people given your minority status.

23. Posted by midlevel - 11 months, 4 days, 14 hours, 57 minutes ago

    I apologize, I was typing while doing work - it should be “Your response is”.

    At any rate, Anon, I think that all jobs, schlarships, etc should be based only on merit.  If someone gets a scholarship or a job because they are smarter or well qualified, people can accept that, regardless of race, sex, etc.  Its only certain groups, i.e. not white men, that feel that jobs and scholarships should be based on something other than merit.  Again, I reiterate, why should someone less qualified get a scholarship or job just because of their status as a minority?  The only response to that is traditional discrimination.  Again, I reiterate, I nor the majority of associates younger than 50 discriminated against anyone.  Yet, we are all “grouped” as racist white males by people like you, which using your standards, isn’t your doing that actually racist.

24. Posted by Old Bald White Guy - 11 months, 4 days, 14 hours, 47 minutes ago

    Notta, I was going to let it go, but your comments a truly insulting and bear out the saying that when you have no defense-attack.  If I had not sacrificed my time with my family (not putting career ahead of family) I would not be able to give my children the opportunities they have today.  We pledged to our grandfather to keep moving the family up, that requires a sacrifice.  I laud your desire to be be a great mother, do not, however, expect everyone else in the firm to pick up the slack while you are out parenting.  If you want to be a good mother, go for it.  Do not blame the profession and your colleagues for lagging behind in advancement because of the manner in which you choose to divide your time between motherhood and the profession.  The firm is not there to subsidize your choices.  No one put a gun to your head to go to college, then law school, then take a job at a big firm.  Any more than some one forced you into motherhood.  Find a firm that has a policy of making it work for mothers.  Then take a pay cut or is that putting your career before your family to go to a firm where they accept flexible hours so you can advance but pay less.  Wow, maybe we should think before we make decisions.  Or is it more convenient to make decisions then blame people for the inconveniences those decisions visit upon us?

25. Posted by RHa - 11 months, 4 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes ago

    It’s unfortunate, but apparent that race matters. Racial minorities aren’t asking to be mollycoddled, they are asking for the same treatment and opportunity given to others. If white counterparts are given one-one feedback or coaching, give the racial minority the same. And to Midlevel, we all need assistance. We’ve all had someone we’ve benefitted from. Whether parents, friends, or Affirmative Action. It all works the same way. It’s amazing the level of racial division still in the country and how it is also reflected in the profession. We’re suppose to be the educated ones.

26. Posted by Anne - 11 months, 4 days, 14 hours, 32 minutes ago

    I am a minority female working as a senior associate in a mid-level law firm.  I am thoroughly offended by No. 11’s comment that “on the whole they [minority females] are actually near the bottom of the associate cohort, because of the strong preference they receive in hiring.” This is very short sighted.  I don’t know who you work for, but where I work, we do not lower our hiring standards for minority females.  With people like you in the legal profession, we will never achieve a level playing field that we seek.  For your information, minority females only ask to be treated as well as others.

27. Posted by ACA - 11 months, 4 days, 14 hours, 26 minutes ago

    Bravo #24!  I am and have been a working mother, student, employee and ran all w/ determination & w/o requesting a “break”.  We all have choices, obstacles, dreams and desires so live how you want but don’t you dare expect others to pull extra weight.

28. Posted by Future - 11 months, 4 days, 14 hours ago

    Just a reminder that your job is not, nor should ever be, your main source of happiness.  Pay can never make up for being treated unfairly.  With that said, law is no different from any other career in this country.  As long as you are minority and/or female, there are certain ways you will be perceived.  Once you understand that, do the best you can and press on.  I have been threatened physically and verbally for being a minority female--both in the U.S. and abroad.  This world is not kind to minorities, nor is it kind to females generally.  However, I refuse to let that stop me and you all should do the same.  I am still in school, but to read your comments, I shouldn’t even bother to enter into the profession unless I can put up with a certain amount of racism and sexism.  Well, just a note to you, I will not give up on my dreams.  I will be an awesome attorney, whether I am forced to work with bigots or not.  Like it or not, I am the future of the profession and I am watching all of you closely.  If you feel as though you can work with people and treat them fairly, then do so.  If you cannot, then don’t.  No one is forcing you to be a good person.  To other women, be encouraged and know that every time you go to work, you set an example for future attorneys like me.  Do not let these crazy people dissuade you from pursuing your dreams...I certainly am not.

29. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 51 minutes ago

    Midlevel- Instead of having a knee jerk response to my post. Please actually read it.  Your comments are clearly motivated by racism and bitterness towards minority groups who you perceive have gotten a better deal than you. Guess what? You dont have to burn a cross on somebody’s front lawn to be a racist.

    Obviously I dont think ALL white males are racist. I am married to one who is not and one by the way who agrees that your comments are racist. I just think YOU are a racist.  As for people making racist comments about middle easterners. You are right- that is unacceptable. I don’t allow anyone to make comments about other minority groups in front of me. [I just recently had a paralegal chastised for making a racial slur against Asians.]

    I am sorry that you feel the way you do. I am sorry that you are so bitter and angry. I just hope that one day the world will change and people like you will be the minority.

30. Posted by jrs - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes ago

    To # 28:  Crap like that is exactly why females (and perhaps minority females) will “always be perceived” a certain way.  Did you just watch gone with the wind or something???  You don’t even work, you say things like “awesome attorney” to describe yourself, and you prattle on about ‘your dreams’ as if anyone cares.  You help foster the ‘perception’ that others have of you because, much like your post, you have no substance.  All you have is what your watered-down, PC public education has given you: a bunch of touchy-feely nonsense that has no bearing on a world that you are not even in!  Try growing up first. 

    Btw, the ‘world is not kind to minorities???” Umm, what exactly is a minority in the world???  It must be white males, give that there are 1.4 billion in China, 1.2 billion in India, etc etc....Give us all a break and spare us your boring dream speeches.

31. Posted by jrs - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 41 minutes ago

    To # 29:  It’s people like you that actually help (and really want) foster racism and its continual existence.  You want racism to occur so you can blame your failures in life/in the work force on it.  By constantly pulling out ‘the race card,’ you continually remind others of things that they don’t really think about anymore unless someone like you uses it as a shield to hide behind their ineptitude with.  The inability to talk about, joke about, whatever about race with others because of people like you labeling anyone who does a ‘racist’ is exactly why the races in this country are retreating in amongst themselves where it’s comfortable and where some race bating hate-monger such as yourself isn’t standing over shoulders looking for a chance to label another a racist.  It’s you who is the real racist here.  But since you’re a minority, you get a free pass at it.  Keep up the good work.

32. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 29 minutes ago

    Jrs- Umm are you ok? You are very angry and bitter. Did you not get into a good law school or did you not get a good job and perceive that someone like me (minority) did becuase I am a minority and you were passed over?  Sorry- but I was 90% percentile on the LSATS.  And what is wrong with a public education. I grew up in a very affluent majority white area and went to a majority white high school.  I went onto to a top 25 college and a top 10 law school (turned down a higher rank law school bc it was just too cold to live there). I make a lot of money and I do very well at work (I have to in order to compete). I am not the racist here but clearly you are.  Get some sensitivity training- just get help period.

33. Posted by Future - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 23 minutes ago

    To “jrs”, my message wasn’t even directed toward you.  It was to encourage the women whom the article addresses to keep going, despite the fact that they have to go to work everyday and deal with hateful people like you.  You should grow up and realize that a “dream” is what changed the world in the first place, so that women and minorities could work in law firms.  You do not insult me, even though you try awfully hard.

34. Posted by RHa - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 7 minutes ago

    jrs, bro why you so hard on Future? Lashing out like that to a young person for chiming in. That’s wrong. She’s only trying to encourage and be encouraged. What’s your beef? I know you were taught better than that.

35. Posted by Ken - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 5 minutes ago

    "Merit” What a word!  To use it without irony is like thinking that pro-wrestling is real, that Babe Ruth’s homeruns had nothing to do with the Yankees deliberately shortening the left-field porch.  It’s the intellectual equivalent of thinking houses should be decorated with doiles and ceramic cats.  The majority of the people with the highest scores, best interpersonal skills, and most knowledge come from families with a good chunk of income to spend on books, trips, tutors, etcs.  And no, this isn’t because poor people are all stupid.  What a GREAT idea then to give only “merit” scholarships.  I can’t think of a better way to reward the “merit” of people, the vast majority of whom (not all) typically went to the best preschools, the best public schools (or private schools), whose families were able to shell out for Kaplan, whose families were stable.

36. Posted by Jrs - 11 months, 4 days, 13 hours, 2 minutes ago

    Anon, your response amounts to an “I know you are but what am I.” Perhaps your statistic are true, perhaps they are not.  I personally don’t need (though I could) to justify myself or my existence by where I went to school, how much money I make, what percentile I was in on a test a took as essentially as a kid...Do yo want to also compare our high school gpa’s, or maybe even see who was the best finger-painter in preschool??  And I’m not angry or bitter, I only state facts.  Facts that you know the truth about and that you can’t argue with, so you instead label me a racist and use hilarious phrases like “sensitivity training.” That was rich.  The fact is, as many people have eloquently pointed out on this board, that minority women get to hide behind their status as such, the get propelled to positions that they often don’t earn or deserve (bases on merit), then they whine about being ‘marginalized’ when the real world shows them and everyone else that in fact they can’t do the job (in certain cases of course).  And what’s more, when someone points this out to them, well, by gosh, that’s racist and sexist!  In this country, it has come to the point where truth no longer exists.  To tell truths, to have discussions, to talk about sex or race (unless, of course, it’s against a white male), it’s labeled racism by people like you, and in the end, we get nowhere.  Let’s get help together.  I’ll go to sensitivity training, you go to reality training.

37. Posted by Notta - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 43 minutes ago

    #24 and #27 - Clearly you both have missed the point of my comments.  I’m not asking anyone to pick up slack.  What I am saying is that I should have the opportunity to work on substantive and meaningful projects, the same as my counterparts.  My inability to constantly be in the office has no effect on my ability to work.  I can do that, and more.  The point is that because there is a PERCEPTION that I’m not willing to work as hard as others who are constantly in the office, I am left out of those more meaningful opportunities.  Your quickness to jump all over my comments, and assume that they mean I can’t work as hard as others, just confirms the very essence of what I said—and confirms that YOUR perception is that I cannot (or do not want to) work as hard as others.

38. Posted by merit - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 43 minutes ago

    First off, the race card is played out, and people like Anon label you a racist and ignorant if you do not follow her notions.  Guess what, all people are to some extent exclusive of others and racist, its just the white male that takes all of the flack for it.  Second off, as to Ken, someone else should not have to make up for your poor family life, your family’s poor choices, and your upbringing.  Personal responsibility, among all groups, is at an all time low in this country.  The best part of it is that every program, such as those referenced by Ken, are geared to help minorities, but when minorities don’t succeed its the system, the white man’s fault, or that someone’s parents have more money.

39. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 41 minutes ago

    Jrs- Did I hit a nerve? Are you upset that a minority female is doing better than you. Based on merit at that. I don’t hide behind racism. In actuality that is a virtual imposibility.

    Your comments are clearly about minorities getting it better than you for the wrong reasons. And obviously the better as you perceive it is better job and better schools. So no- success is not alone based on GPA and salary but that is obviously what has you sooo upset.

    I forwarded your response to my husband he laughed for five minutes. He said that thank god this is anonymous bc you are so angry and bitter you might try to find our house and key my car.  Or worse.

    And dont think we missed your disbelief re my LSAT scores. You obviously dont beleive it bc you are a racist and you beleive it is an impossibility that a minority woman can achieve that. My mother still has them framed in the house that I grew up in. Maybe I will get her to mail you a copy.

    I am the only minority female in my office, I have a white husband, and I live in a majority white neighborhood.  I have to live in the reality- I get reminded of certain realities everyday from people just like you.

40. Posted by Jrs - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes ago

    Again....in spite of all of your “accomplishments” (marrying white certainly didn’t hurt!)...in spite of how intelligent you keep touting yourself to be...it’s clear that you really once again have nothing to fall back on other than to accuse me of being “angry” and upset and bitter and unsuccessful.  Boo hoo hoo.  But you see, I’m not falling back, as you are, on laurels that are impossible to prove on this board.  I’m not sitting here telling you that I’m president and CEO of Microsoft.  Wait...I am!!  This is Bill Gates writing!  Actually, it’s the ghost of MLK writing!!  Or Julius Caesar!!  Point is...you (and I) can say anything we want about how much better we are than the other.  But I don’t have to stoop to that childish level.  I don’t have to tell you that my mommy has my diploma on her wall or that she still irons my underwear or whatever point you are trying to make there.  I don’t have to fall back on such a tit for tat because I’m right, and you and your lame husband know it.  I’m making an argument, and you just help prove my point.  You have nothing to say other than “well....I’m smarter than you, ask my mommy....well....you are angry and would key my car.....ummm....well....you are a racist who doesn’t make money.....etc etc.” You only make my point.  You have nothing of value or merit to say, so you tout your own accomplishments and expect that I should believe them?!?!  All the while resorting to very unintelligent and immature arguments and talking to me about your diploma on your mommy’s wall?!?!  The point that you seem to keep missing is that all you have is name calling.  I’m a racist.  I’m a sexist.  I key cars.  But you haven’t (and can’t) honestly defend the fact that minority women such as yourself are all too often (as is clear in your case) handed things on a silver platter that they don’t deserve.  Period.  When did I ever say a minority woman can’t achieve lofty goals??  I didn’t.  But because you know my argument is right, you, again, childishly resort to putting words in my mouth.  Minority woman indeed.  You exemplify everything I and others are talking about.  Thank you.

41. Posted by Please - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 21 minutes ago

    Future and Anon, Please don’t waste your precious energy trying to dissuade ignorant people from clinging onto their ignorance.  We can’t change the values of others through these kinds of dead-end debates.  We don’t have anything to prove to anyone but ourselves - and once we really realize that and stop worrying so much about how others might or might not perceive us, we will be impossible to measure against any of these worldly standards.  Ommmmm.

42. Posted by midlevel - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 21 minutes ago

    Anon, I’m not bitter or angry at all, rather by calling people names and avoiding an intelligent (although I’m sure to you its ignorant) debate on real social issues by using the race card, it would appear as if you are bitter and angry.  I get paid well to do a job I like, and have friends from many diverse backgrounds.  You are using racism as an aid to avoid arguing any of the valid points made in these postings.  I congratulate you for your sucess, and if your gpa, lsat, etc are as good as you say, then I agree you deserve the job you have.  Its those that do not have the credentials for such a job that irritates people.  One would think that someone who is as intelligent as you claim to be would be able to understand what is actually being debated here without going to some sort of crutch/defense mechanism like the race/bigot card.

    Anon, let me ask you point blank.  There were two black women sitting at a table behind me in law school, they were talking about their undergrad gpa’s and lsat scores, all of which were significantly lower than mine.  They also were talking about their scholarships, which I did not get.  One later ended up landing a job in a big firm that could not ask about grades during the interview because of minority interviewing policies.  I know for a fact that this girl’s grades were lower than mine in 6 classes we had together in law school because we talked about it and in fact she borrowed 3 outlines from me.  Do you think she deserved a scholarship and a job at a large firm based on those merits?  If you do, then it is perhaps you who are narrow minded and being racist against the “white man”.  Equal opportunity should be available to all, based on merit, but these minority programs are not equal opportunity for all, its in effect reverse discrimination.  At the point the minority programs put some groups to a disadvantage, aren’t these programs in effect doing what they aim to cure.

43. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Jrs-"marrying white certainly didn’t hurt!” - Wow. And there it goes. The outright racist comment I was waiting on. And to think you actually dont think you are a racist.

44. Posted by midlevel - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 11 minutes ago

    Anon, I agree that Jrs last comment you discussed was inappropriate.  However, you are still missing his point in that you are not debating the actual issue here, just continuing to call people racists.  Maybe some people are, maybe you are racist against people who are half “white” half lebanese like myself because you seem to be attacking me, but the point is you never deal with the issue at hand.  Its clear that the outstanding law school you allegedly attended is head and shoulders above the rest in teaching their students how to debate an issue.

45. Posted by Ken - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes ago

    Merit, nobody had to make up for my family life.  I pulled my way up and went to Yale, with 99.99% grades and scores.  And I’m a white guy, so this isn’t a minority thing for me.  My problem with people like you is you visit the sins of the fathers upon the children.  Let’s play a logic game.  Basically, you are willing to tell today’s kids (set 2) they don’t deserve any help, b/c their parents (set 1) made bad choices, right?  So, set 2 “doesn’t get pulled up”.  Then, when it comes to the kdis (set 3) of these set 2 kids, are you going to tell them they get no help b/c THEIR parents (set 2) made bad choices?  DID set 2 make bad choices, or were they just born to parents (set 1), who made bad chocies?  And maybe, did set 1 even make bad choices?  Isn’t it possible, iinstead, that they were they born to parents who did?  How are we to know where the bad choice was made?  Why do you assume it was a bad choice, and not bad luck?  There is room for acheivement, there is room for a conception of merit.  But there is also room for humility, noblesse oblige, kindness, understanding, and, hopefully, and ability to evaluate people’s circumstances on something longer than a single-generational timescale.

46. Posted by Jrs - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes ago

    I’m glad I gave you what you wanted!  Of course, someone with your impeccable record of achievement and superior intellectual capacity can surely see the irony and sarcasm such a statement was laced with!  You think that just because you married a white guy that you are immune and above ‘being a racist,’ so you can name call and stomp your feet and pitch tantrums and throw the race-card around every time you don’t get your way, whether you deserve it or not.  But, you really haven’t gotten anything else here today...why should I expect it this time. 

    By the way, I never said that I was or was not a racist.  I only said you were, and you make the problem worse.  Marrying a white guy doesn’t change that.

47. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 12 hours, 4 minutes ago

    Midlevel- Quick question- Doyou know for a fact that those girls got scholarships only because they were black? Could it have been based on financial need? I feel you- I got the shaft on the need based scholarships as well.

    Did you compare your grades to your white male counterparts who may have also gotten better jobs than you and who had lower grades?

    If in fact that overall you make a far better associate than any other person who interviewed for that job and you did not get it for whatever reason then it is unfair and sad. Believe me, I want to work with bright smart people. Its the bad associates (and sometimes not so bright partners) who make it hard on all of us.

48. Posted by Old Bald White Guy - 11 months, 4 days, 11 hours, 56 minutes ago

    Notta

    Whether you express it that way or not you are asking people to pick up slack to accomodate your personal decisions.  My comments clearly were not contingent on whether you were the next Sandra Day O’Connor or not.  If you are the next SDO, and you are not there, you’re no help.  In addition, as an associate, the partners want to see you, speak with you about issues, sit and review your work with you and just plain have intellectual conversations and brainstorming about significant cases.  You earn that.  Just like the high school kids I coach.  If they don’t show their mettle in the drudgery of daily practice (being there, showing their work) I don’t trust them with my win loss record.  By the way, my sister chose to be a single mother and nobody let her off work because she made that choice or promoted her or denied a promotion because of it.  It was her work and being there, simple.  I know your only argument is to think I am a stupid insensitive old guy that doesn’t get what you are saying.  But I do, you just don’t want to find a job where they let you have the flexibility to be a Mom-there out there-they may not pay what you want or offer the advancement you want, but they are there and then you cn be the mother you want to be.

49. Posted by Anon - 11 months, 4 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes ago

    Jrs- You dont have to say whether you are a racist. Anybody reading your post can clearly see that you are.

    Midlevel- Thank you for acknowledging Jrs comment is inappropriate. And I apologize if I misinterpreted any of your previous posts. And again, I do think it is unfair for anyone to get something they did not work for. What is so disheartening is when people assume that ALL minorities did not work for what they have or ALL are incompetent and should not have big firm jobs.  If that is not what your posts intended to say then I wholeheartedly apologize for my previous posts directed towards you.  And nobody has a right to make inappropriate racial statements about anybody and I sorry you had to deal with people making inappropriate comments about middle easterners. Nobody (no race and no genger) gets a pass on that type of behavior.  Its just wrong.

50. Posted by jrpartner - 11 months, 4 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Dear Anne (#26),
    I wasnt trying to be offensive when I said the majority of minority females are in the bottom of the associate cohort in terms of intelligence (ie GPA/LSAT-the only measure thats used in this arena)...im just stating fact. The number of minority females at the top 20 schools is small. Quite small. And all the big firms are CLAMORING over this group, b/c as previously noted, they “count twice” when it comes to filling out the diversity boxes. Demand is far outstripping supply. Do you disagree with anything i’ve said so far?Now for the part you might disagree with...but anyone who is familiar with the numbers game these firms must deal with will agree… When supply is so low, firms must lower standards. so its natural that lesser qualified candidates (relative to white male counter parts, which we have a plentiful supply of) will get offers where others dont...its just a numbers game. For the record im at am AMLAW top 10 firm, and of course, its not an official policy to have a lower standard for these candidates, but we have to lower our standards in order to make more than 1 or 2 offers (and we like to make more since we want as many as we can get).

51. Posted by Notta - 11 months, 4 days, 11 hours, 41 minutes ago

    Old Bald White Guy - I hear what you’re saying, I really do.  MY problem is that when I was recruited to my firm, it was on the basis that my having to leave at 5:00 and work from home in the evenings (which I do on a regular basis) would not be a problem.  I went through my entire Iaw school career as a single-parent, so I knew what I could and could not deal with, and I addressed these things early on during my summer associate position with my firm.  I purposely took an opportunity in the Midwest to have a more laid-back approach to practicing law.  I purposely did not stay on the East Coast because I was familiar with the tremendous demands of working for an East Coast firm.  Perhaps you think it was naive of me as a law student to believe the representations my firm made to me during recruiting.  Either way, I feel like I was recruited to my firm under false pretenses, and now that I’m here, the very things they touted as being unique to the firm (strong family values, flexible scheduling, etc.), don’t really exist.  I agree that someone who enters a situation eyes wide open should expect the things they get.  That’s not my situation.  I’m certainly not whining about it, just pointing out the fact that it is problem.

52. Posted by Old Bald White Guy - 11 months, 4 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Notta

    The definition of naive does not include a good faith belief people are telling you the truth.

    My counsel remains the same, no matter how many poster girls show up in ABA Journal feel good stories, the business end of practicing law requires some grueling hours and partners (because I am one) grab the first warm body they see and give them tasks.  If you’re not there, your not seen.

    You should move out west, we are laid back.  I do lots of deals with Midwestern firms, they are not really laid back.  The economics of the big firms will never faclitate what are perceived as part timers rising to the top. Not an insult, just trying to get you inside the head of an old school lawyer who is also white.  I know scary thought.

    Part of what you are complaining about is why my partner and I formed this firm ten years ago.

53. Posted by unbelievable - 11 months, 4 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes ago

    Let me start off by saying that I am a WHIITE to hedge off those who will respond that I am using the race card. Now, if people would wake up and step out of the 19th century we would not need affirmative action. Regardless of how so many people claim that they are not racist we only have to watch the news to see that almost everyday there is a new story about someone who has been “called out”, Imus, Dog the Bounty Hunter, Kramer from Seinfeld, the list goes on. It is tragic that a persons intellect, heart, motivations, and worth are judged on the base of race. But they are.  So my point is this: all of you who are against affirmative action take action to help eliminate the racism that is suffacating (sp) our society. That means not laughing at racial jokes and not accepting racist behavior from friends and family. Until racism is stamped out we HAVE to have affirmative action. If number of minorities are low then there will be less minorities to choose from and inevitably some unqualified minorities will be hired and those who are white will be overlooked. It is the nature of the beast that our forefathers created. Instead of whining about it do something about it. If you want to eliminate affirmative action then eliminate the need for it. Without it our society would not have had the benefit of some of our greatest leaders.

54. Posted by booker - 11 months, 4 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes ago

    Racism is a truly terrible affliction because the racist does not ever even realize that (s)he is sick.  Racists are merely superstitious people who attempt to justify their desire for the continued maltreatment of others with the details about how difficult and unfair life has been for them at some point in the past.

    I say that racism is a superstition because there is an irrational attempt to justify one’s own dissatisfaction with life by blaming another group based upon uninformed assumptions.  Unfortunately racists do not see their lapse in logic because, in reality, they do not want to see truth.  Just as a superstitious person would blame a black cat (pun intentional) for their situation, racists blame minorities. 

    I pity the fool who is blinded by his or her own
    racism.

55. Posted by unbelievable - 11 months, 4 days, 9 hours, 13 minutes ago

    One more thing, for all of those who silently balked when I said without affirmative action we would not have had some of our greatest leaders, the civil rights movement not only benefited those who are black, it benefited your WHITE mother, WHITE daughter, WHITE sister; in essence it benefited YOU.

56. Posted by Old Bald White Guy - 11 months, 4 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes ago

    54-Not even sure what you are talking about except it sounds as though, if we disagree in any respect we are blind, sick illogical-good sophistry, Plato would be proud.

    53-Just a clarification.  Slavery did not start with the white europeans(that was indentured servitude), slavery was a way of life in Africa before the Americas even saw any white guys.  My point, human beings are what they are irrespective of race.  It is just easier to blame white guys becasue no one dares defend them.  There is good in our nature there is bad and quite frankly that is evenly spread across humanity.  If Africans discovered America and needed cheap labor and found the peoples of Europe willing to sell their own, We would need affirmative action for white people.

57. Posted by Stunned in Chicago - 11 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 16 minutes ago

    OK, people let’s get back on message.

    I am stunned to read some of the comments about the barely literate colored women and men populating so many law firms; you would think that firms are camped outside law school doors taking any minority graduate who limps, drooling, out the door.  That myth may be a balm to some bitter whites, but it is just that— myth.  The number of minority associates and partners is still disproportionately low at the vast majority of firms.  So stop whining about the “free ride” that people of color are getting, and the cushy life they lead at your expense. 

    Here’s an exercise for any white male who thinks it is a cakewalk: How much would you pay to wake up tomorrow and be a black woman (Oprah doesn’t count)?

58. Posted by Lefty - 11 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 40 minutes ago

    Wow, these posts have been ridiculous on many levels. I am especially surprised at how little elitist lawyers actually know about Affirmative Action. Yes it helps get the few people of color(minorities) into certain law schools, etc… But it has mainly served to strengthen white families in almost every other area of society, especially in education. It’s no shocker if you look at the higher number of women atty’s. Who do white women tend to marry disproportionately...white men...stronger white families. So get off the non-sense that its a problem.

    Turning back to the real issue at hand. It seems that the problem could be solved by solving the myriad issues that mid-to large firms face. I mean really who in the hell would work till 12am anyways.

59. Posted by Bill - 11 months, 1 day, 18 hours, 19 minutes ago

    The untold story here is that there are barriers to all these disgruntled employees starting their own firm.

    From a strictly economics point of view: if there was such a high percentage of flight risk associates, then there would be a market demand that would be filled by firms which attracted these candidates.  And despite the comments on this board, the law of averages will apply if the applicant pool is large. That is to say, the talent will range from best to worst with the bulk more or less like everyone else.

    But this article is about how female minorities are disgruntled, not how they are flocking to a particular type of firm.  The implication is that the type of firm that attracts female minorities doesn’t exist despite a market demand for such firms.  The logical conclusion is that there are barriers to the creation of such firms.

    These barriers to the creation of firms that can attract qualified but disgruntled lawyers from other firms is the real story.  Why don’t these firms exist?

60. Posted by The Dude Abides - 11 months, 1 day, 10 hours, 33 minutes ago

    what the heck? are you all so bored with the practice of the law you post and post and post...this is my first time on this site and my last.  My God what a waste of time.  A bunch of unknown associates arguing with each other about the dumbest things...what’s everybody’s billable hour goal...1200?

61. Posted by Martha Kim - 11 months, 14 hours, 54 minutes ago

    The Corporate Leavers Survey conducted by the Level Playing Field Institute, a San Francisco based nonprofit, confirms these results. People of color leave at three times the rate of Caucasian heterosexual males due solely to unfairness in the form of stereotyping, mistaken identity and other forms of subtle bias. When we asked these same professionals what could have kept them the number one response, beyond pay and benefits, was a manager who recognized their abilities. Such a response concludes that people of color believe they face some form of discrimination, whether subtle or overt, in the assignment, development and promotion process. Numerous academically rigorous studies have indicated that we all have our own biases (resume studies, CV studies, musicians auditioning behind curtains to hide gender). Only by identifying them can we begin to mitigate them. For more information about the Survey and the Level Playing Field Institute please visit www.lpfi.org