ABA Journal - Law News Now

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1. Posted by T - 4 months, 1 week, 4 days, 16 hours, 38 minutes ago

   There are too many lawyers already, and too many people straight out of undergraduate school end up in law school because it’s such a obvious target.  It’s incredibly unethical for these schools to capitalize on 20-year-olds’ confusion and ignorance.

2. Posted by Caroline - 4 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 15 minutes ago

   I think it’s about time SUNY planned for a law school.  Too many private schools, with no public university having a law school is a bigger problem than simply having too many law schools.  It points towards a larger issue of who is able to get a law degree, and opening it up to a different socioeconomic bracket would be great.

3. Posted by Caroline - 4 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 12 minutes ago

   (I recognize there’s SUNY Buffalo and CUNY, but New York is quite large.  It makes sense to have a state school on Long Island as well as another one in the greater New York region.)

4. Posted by David - 4 months, 1 week, 4 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes ago

   Hopefully the new ABA requirement which endangers law schools which are unable to acheive a 75% bar passage rate after 5 years will deter some schools from going through with this.

5. Posted by JD - 4 months, 1 week, 4 days, 5 hours, 33 minutes ago

   David - I share the sentiment but I doubt that’s likely. The 75% requirement isn’t an absolute barrier to entry, especially if prospective deans are confident (as I’m sure they all are) in their schools’ abilities to meet it. Nor is it a barrier to provisional accreditation, which is available after 3 years (I believe the only case of the ABA cutting a school a break is Drexel, at a little over 2 years.) And if the penalty for falling below 75% is probation, that still won’t be an effective deterrent to initial market entry. Worst case scenario: a school loses accreditation. But if the students are primarily in-state, it’s possible for the school to become state accredited (like many of the non-ABA California schools) so that they can continue to take the home state bar exam.

   Caroline - Given that CUNY and St. John’s are both in eastern Queens, I would argue that Long Island effectively has 4 law schools, so I don’t see the need for Stony Brook. As for upstate, I can see how Binghamton and Rochester lack options for local legal education. But my opposition is based more on the expressed motives of the promoters in the legislature. Is there a shortage of lawyers in those areas? Even though they’re farther away, are students in those areas unable to access existing schools? No, everything I’ve read about the new upstate schools shows the promoters have premised them on the belief that law schools are simply cash cows without any regard for actual pedagogy.

   Your point about affordability is a separate issue and affects higher education across the board. I think part of the solution is taking all the millions the state is willing to spend to subsidize the new schools and put them toward grants, scholarships, and LRAP for current students.

6. Posted by Marc J. Randazza - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 38 minutes ago

   Why not just solve the problem by having a “class size limit” for ABA accreditation?  If a law school’s graduating class can be no larger than 200 for its first 10 years, and it can increase by 50 for every 10 years thereafter… or something like that… wouldn’t that help?

7. Posted by Richard - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 9 minutes ago

   SUNY is already underfunded in providing programs that the state really does need.  this is a pork barrel project by some state legislators who use the university system for their pet projects rather than allocating funds for the state as a whole for really necessary eucational projects.

8. Posted by Retired Attorney - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes ago

   I find that this is always a fascinating debate.  Ultimately, I come down on the side that if a school can do what it needs to to obtain ABA accreditation, then let it go forward and see if the market will bear it.  Students are becoming savvier about school selection and undergrad advisors are as well.

9. Posted by Overlaw - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 20 hours, 58 minutes ago

   We are so past having way too many law schools.  In fact, exixtsing law schools should limit access to folks with undergrad and master degrees.  Way too many young, useless guppies in the overcrowded pond already.

10. Posted by Joe - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes ago

    Add my vote to those saying there are already too many lawyers and too many law schools.

    If the law schools were putting out lots of good public-spirited lawyers, I wouldn’t have a complaint; perhaps some of these lawyers would drive down the cost of services for the poor and other underserved groups.

    But what we get instead are lots of bad lawyers who lack any real aptitude for the law and seem to have learned nothing from law school.  They’re just trying to make a quick buck rather than serving the poor, etc.  These lawyers simply gum up the legal system with their substandard lawyering and drive up costs for everyone.

11. Posted by Greg Wilson - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 19 hours, 39 minutes ago

    I agree their is a glut of lawyers and law schools.  What is needed is better/accurate info for those considering going to law school.  The data contained in U.S. News (which everyone seems to use) with regard to placement rates and starting salaries is flat out wrong.  If students knew the truth, many would not go to law school.

12. Posted by Doneil - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 18 hours, 22 minutes ago

    Yes - Waaaaaaaaay too many lawyers and law schools. I also believe that before anyone is admitted to law shool they should spend one year living on the streets of a major city, one year working in a hospital, and one year as a police officer. With that as a background the few people going to law shcool would ultimately make great lawyers.

13. Posted by BR - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 17 hours, 39 minutes ago

    Get rid of ABA accreditation, get rid of state bar exams, and allow anyone who desires to practice law.  Let Consumer Reports start rating lawyers.  Caveat emptor.  I seriously doubt that things could possibly get much worse than they are now.  I trust the free market to sort things out far more effectively than the leadership of either the ABA or our current law schools.  And God help us if the legislatures get any more involved in regulating the profession.

14. Posted by JFC - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 16 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Lots of people who would make phenomenol lawyers graduate from law school, pass the bar and are unable to secure a legal job but limiting the number of law schools will not solve this problem: law schools already graduate more future bar admittees then their are legal jobs for.  Law schools and state bars just need to do a better job of educating prospective law students about what they are getting themselves into-- that picture is not currently being painted very clearly.

15. Posted by John - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 16 hours, 25 minutes ago

    Law school is one of the most profitable area in any given university.  The tuition is high and there is very low overhead - especially as compared to medical school, business school, etc.  Although I wholeheartedly agree that there are way too many schools and lawyers, these universities are just trying to make money.  Hopefully, with better information available for undergraduates as to what most lawyers make, the market will correct itself and law admissions will decrease.

16. Posted by Dave - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 16 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Interesting that the legal profession can’t figure out what the medical profession somehow seems to perpetuate—just enough schools and foreign entrance to the market to keep a relatively adequate supply of professionals while protecting their income potential.  Doesn’t say much for those who are supposed to be good at maneuvering through laws and regulations, does it?

17. Posted by ChicagoGuy - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 15 hours, 53 minutes ago

    It’s all money.  The law schools make money, the ABA makes money, the Feds make money on all that delicious non-dischargeable debt.  Why would people voluntarily give up all this free money, until, like everything else of this nature (e.g. sub-prime mortgage loans) it collapses under its own weight?

    And that will happen, we’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg now.  Law school is sold to potential students as a fat ticket to wealth.  Hell, even if you don’t land that 150k/year big firm associate job right out of law school (and what the law schools *aren’t* saying is that hardly anyone does), the common knowledge is “you can do anything with a law degree” right?

    Right.  In the same way that you can do anything with an MBA, a BA in English Lit, or a friggin’ certificate from Clown College. 

    The solution is stricter requirements on honesty in law school advertising and recruiting including elimination or reworking of the “mean salary of graduates” reporting that is going on (which is intellectually dishonest in extremely clever ways; of course your mean salary is 85k per year, the 20 students you graduated making 160k and the rest making 40 balance everything out!), quicker processes for eliminating the accreditation of continually underperforming schools, etc.

    But the number one reason that this is becoming such a problem is that the ABA, the main body that should be charged with controlling the flow of lawyers into the profession is doing nothing to stop it, and is, in fact encouraging another spray at an already oversaturated market.

    Why?

    Because, quite simply, ABA leadership is comprised largely of those who have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and the ABA’s lobbying efforts and accreditation of sub-standard school will be directed thusly.

18. Posted by Brian - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes ago

    All second tier and third tier law schools are money making schemes. They are taking advantage of their students and the US government.  If the US would stop backing these ridiculous loans being made for a law school education this whole house of cards would come crumbling down. What’s the first office to be organized in every new school?  Financial aid.  If you can not get into a USNAWR top 50 law school, skip it.  If you go to one of these law schools you will end up with a $40k/year job with a shiny new $1000/month bill.  Good luck.

19. Posted by cdf - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 15 hours, 38 minutes ago

    A legal education is a fine thing and I think almost anyone could benefit from one.  The thing that appalls me is that passing the bar isn’t more difficult.  I think we have all probably suffered lawyers that we cannot believe are allowed to practice law.  Tougher bar examinations would narrow the field.  This would not act as a bar to the new JDs from finding work; it just would mean that they would have to work under the supervision of a real attorney, creating a tiered employment structure. 

    I also think that state bar associations ought to certify lawyers in the practice of certain areas of the law.  Many newly minted attorneys cannot find jobs and are just tossing up their shingles without any concept of what they are doing and both their clients and the profession as a whole are suffering as a result.  Certification in specific practice areas would ensure that the people practicing in those areas are qualified and not just winging it.

20. Posted by southern lawyer - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 15 hours, 21 minutes ago

    The problem with the legal profession is the glut of aimless 22 year olds who go there because it’s a chance to live off your daddy for more years/find a husband.  Most of these people end up at lower tier schools and are lower tier lawyers.

    Of course, some young people fresh out of undergrad are great, motivated, bright, energetic individuals- and they’ll probably go to a top tier school (or a lower-tier school for free). 

    BUT, a lot of the ‘new’ lower-tier schools that open up actually tend to cater to later-in-life grads that become excellent lawyers...for example, I know a few cops that became lawyers through night school, and they’re great. 

    It’s really an ambition issue- people who don’t REALLY want to become lawyers shouldn’t go to law school because it’s an ‘easy’ thing to do.  The solution is to refocus on law as a profession, instead of a business.  Make it clear that law is not a money-making machine, but a service profession, and you should see a lot of the vultures fly away.

21. Posted by junk mail man - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 14 hours, 14 minutes ago

    Well, a glut there may be, but the incipient closing of Ave Maria School of Law should help. See www.avewatch.com

22. Posted by John Smith - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 12 hours, 48 minutes ago

    The legal profession is like the Army: It’s a nice enough life if you’re a colonel or a general, but most remain in the ranks. Just like few city kids shooting hoops will make it to the NBA, most new lawyers will not be well off as a result of their earnings from practicing law. That’s a fact, and does not reflect on the ability of those concerned.
    We need more law schools like a diabetic needs a pail full of pralines!  Why does the ABA suborn this madness? Most law students will wind up with mountains of debt, and very modest incomes, not a formula for a good quality of life.

23. Posted by disgruntled young lawyer - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 11 hours, 36 minutes ago

    I couldn’t agree more with the vast majority of the commenters.  There is a glut of law schools producing a glut of lawyers and “free money” to attend only compounds the problem.  I am a year out of school and am forced to live at home while I clerk for a local judge and search for a way to pay off my six figure debt.  I know many people who have only a high school diploma (maybe less) that make more money than I do.  For the vast majority law school is a trap.  There are so many lawyers and so few jobs that it is becoming increasingly difficult to break in to the profession let alone become a “colonel or a general”.  Everyone I meet who tells me they are thinking about law school I tell them what an older lawyer told me when I decided to go “Don’t do it”.

24. Posted by Recent Graduate Who Can't Find a Job - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 10 hours, 35 minutes ago

    I agree with many of the above comments.  I recently graduated from a third-tier law school, I finished in the top-twenty percent of my class, was on law journal, and captained a strong moot court team.  Unfortunately, all this has given me is a fancy degree, over $100,000 in debt, and no job in the foreseeable future.

    So moral of the story… we should really go ahead and open ten more schools so that we can churn out 2000 more attorneys that can’t find jobs.

25. Posted by Mary Barez - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 9 hours, 49 minutes ago

    Luck #13!  I agree with BR in that the marketplace should dictate.  If lawyers cannot find jobs, fewer will enter the profession.  Public Law schools are definitely needed at SUNY Binghamton and in Boise.  I live outside Boise and the UI law school is effectively inaccessible to most of the state.  My husband is a graduate of SUNY B and I went there for several years w/o graduating.  NYS is a populous state and a public law school is seriously needed in central NYS.  Finally to the poster who advocated making the bar exam more difficult:  how would you find anyone who could make the test harder (and still know the answers)? and w/o precluding their own kids from passing?  The glorified typing tests should be abolished (definitely sour grapes here) and the MBE restructured to actually test the black letter law, not stupid nuances in areas of law where maybe 1% of all atorneys practice.  Bless you, Chicago Guy!  My Tier 1 law degree v Clown College certificate:  ah, the road not taken!

26. Posted by John Paul Jones - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes ago

    Assuming arguendo that there are too many law schools because there are too many grads for the market to absorb [this begs the question of graduation rates], why is it that so many Americans still cannot afford a lawyer? Once upon a time, I supposed that supplying more lawyers would make legal representation affordable for the middile class, but it hasn’t turned out that way.

27. Posted by none please - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 8 hours, 49 minutes ago

    People need to take a year or two off before entering law school to weight their options.

    I do not care if they work, sit at the beach, run a non-profit, or preach.

    More law schools exacerbate this problem.

28. Posted by XYZ - 4 months, 1 week, 2 days, 2 minutes ago

    Way too many law schools and way too many lawyers.

29. Posted by Irwin Eisenstein 4L - 4 months, 1 week, 1 day, 13 hours, 17 minutes ago

    Any time I see State law schools, I believe it is O.K.  In order to allow graduating lawyers to practice without selling their souls it is necessary to reduce tuition. 
    For a long time, the ABA controlled the salaries of law professors.  That is not happening now, but the ABA still controls many aspects of law school. 
    I would like to see the ABA start to review some of the online schools that offer degrees that cost much less than the currently accredited schools. 
    Who cares what the passage rate is when people are allowed to take the bar.  California has a baby bar that requires those who go to unaccredited schools to take the bar when they graduate.  This is a better approach than most states. 
    why is it that even with a glut of lawyers the cost of private representation is still beyond the capability of most middle class people.

    We should also see if the same public schools can be opened for medical schools!  That would reduce the cost of medical care.  Many countries allow students to go to school for free if they agree to either pay back the costs, or if they practice in the public sector for a period of time. 
    Recently, I believe, Harvard started to grant scholarships to many who could not afford to go to school?  I wonder how Barack Obama and Michelle got through Harvard?  Was it with scholarships? 
    Realize that president Clinton came from a background where he could not afford much.  What types of scholarships did he receive?

30. Posted by UB2L JDPhD - 4 months, 1 week, 1 day, 11 hours, 28 minutes ago

    Caroline:
    No, no, no, no, no.

    And no.

    The last thing NY needs is another law school.  There are, at last count, 15 law schools in NY State.  UB Law is Tier II, CUNY is Tier IV.  If SUNY were to fund more separate schools, rather than focusing its energies on the schools it has, it would result in many less-than-mediocre law schools rather than a few good ones.  IF there really is a need for more law schools (and my argument is no) do we want those to be Tier IV, or worse, so bad that they’re unaccredited?  No one graduating from low-ranked schools has any hope of getting a job, and unless you’re taking the California bar no one from an unaccredited school can even be admitted as a lawyer. (Don’t ask me why people actually go to unaccrediteds, because law school is expensive enough without hope of a six-figure salary to pay your loans back eventually.) SUNY needs to focus on the schools it has, to bring CUNY out of the dregs of law-school-society that it currently occupies, and to turn UB into a world-class institution.

31. Posted by Cynthia - 4 months, 1 week, 13 hours, 11 minutes ago

    Dear Brian (Post #17),

    I find it appalling that you say ALL 2nd & 3rd tier law schools are money making schemes.  I currently go to a lower tier school that happens to be one of the cheapest law schools in the country!  (Northern Illinois University College of Law). 

    Personally, I will graduate from my low-tiered school with less than $50,000 in debt.  Although we’re no Harvard, I’ll still be able to make a decent living.

    Ultimately, if you want an ABA-approved legal education, you can find it for the right price.  I got into a tier one school but passed on it because I realized I’d be over $100,000 in debt by the time I graduated (in tuition loans alone!).

    I think every law school applicant should speak to a several recent law school graduates and see what they have to say about choosing a law school.  That’s what I did and I’m happy with my decision.

    FYI:  The lawyer I spoke to before I chose a law school, graduated from a Tier One school and indicated that she was on a 20-year loan repayment plan.  Gah.

32. Posted by Cynthia - 4 months, 1 week, 13 hours, 7 minutes ago

    One more thing:  I think most people who responded to this story overlooked one huge issue:

    NOT EVERYBODY WHO GOES TO LAW SCHOOL WANTS TO BE A LAWYER.

    While there’s big pond, not every fish wants to be caught.

    Nowadays, there’s a lot more to do with a law degree than just be a lawyer. C’mon folks!

33. Posted by kyle - 4 months, 1 week, 9 hours, 30 minutes ago

    I chose to go to lower tier law school b/c the scholarship was better. I also did the same with undergrad. I paid 9k cash for my undergrad at a ST school and sit next to people who are well over 100k in debt for their undergrad. As far as more law schools. Thats fine. At the end of the day a law school grad still needs to be able to sell him/her self to get a job. I also think law schools would be better served to take more students that have spend a little more time working in the real world. Doing so would cut down on many of kids in class that their just b/c their dad is a lawyer.

34. Posted by BC - 4 months, 6 days, 21 hours, 54 minutes ago

    I came out of undergrad, went to a 3rd Tier law school, and now I am over $150K in debt.  I did well, was on moot court, published, and on a law journal, and I was able to find a federal clerkship.  However, the vast majority of my classmates are still without a job.  One individual recently took a job at the local grocery store and happened to ring up my groceries that day.  When I questioned why he was working there, the response I got was what I would suggest is a typical answer: “I have to pay back my student loans, and I had to take this job to help myself out.” To be fair, he is working 2 jobs - one as docket reviewer for a litigation firm, and the cashier at the grocery store.  What is the moral of this story - Opening Up 10 More Law Schools in a failing economy is unethical, and raises serious questions about the moral judgment of the individuals running the institutions and what they really are concerned about (it certainly is not the students at this point).

35. Posted by 3rd-tier shark - 4 months, 6 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes ago

    I had to laugh at Brian’s comment. You seem to be either: (1) an elitist from a top-tier school, or (2) a disgruntled 2nd/3rd tier’er who feels they’ve been ripped off.

    As a 3rd tier alum who is doing just fine, thank you, I can tell you that I received excellent instruction, that many other alumni from my law school work for large, respected firms or hold important positions in gov’t, (Columbus, Ohio), and I’m paying dues but making progress and growing my career.

    If (1) is the case, I look forward to sitting across from you at table or in the courtroom. There are few greater pleasures than putting an elitist in their place. If (2) is the case, then my best advise is to grow some backbone and quit blaming the system for your own poor decisions.

    Only a fool would believe they would be handed $160K out of law school and a 22 year old should be adult enough to make an informed decision about their future. If their are too many lawyers to compete with in the marketplace, then the system will weed them out. If their are too many lawyers for you, then you might want to consider a less competitive profession.

36. Posted by associate - 4 months, 5 days, 21 hours, 22 minutes ago

    To the people who say, “Why can’t middle class people afford legal representation?”

    I must say, it has nothing to do with the prices attorneys charge.  We have our debts, expenses, and a family to take care of.  That determines a minimum price for a portion of my time/life.  If I can make more as a welder for that portion of my life, then I will.

    The problem today is not that people don’t work for free exclusively; it’s that there is no more middle class.  When CEO’s, CFO’s, and board members average out at 200x what the average worker makes, that eliminates the existance of a middle class.  You used to be able to make money in the stock market.  That doesn’t happen now that all of the money a company makes goes to the 10-12 employees running the company.  We really need to reform corporate boards so that they stop giving each other the company and start returning value to the shareholders.  Cutting expenses by 50% or so will also also the company to actually pay for “middle class” jobs like engineers and supervisors.  This is just one example.  The problem isn’t that legal services aren’t cheap enough, it’s that everything else doesn’t pay anymore (not to mention the fact that ~50% of your money goes to local, state and federal govn’t in one form or another).