Law School Secret: Bad Job Market

Lawyer Pay

Posted Sep 24, 2007, 05:04 am CST

By Debra Cassens Weiss

The job market is tough for many recent law grads, who are pointing their fingers at law schools for failing to warn them about their dim prospects.

Top pay for new associates at the big law firms is $160,000, but most beginning lawyers make far less at the same time they are paying off tuition loans as high as $100,000 or more, the Wall Street Journal reports (sub. req.). Some newly minted lawyers are taking temporary attorney jobs that pay only $20 an hour.

Law professor Richard Sander of the University of California at Los Angeles told the newspaper that incoming law students are "mesmerized by what's happening in big firms, but clueless about what's going on in the bottom half of the profession."

Critics argue that law school job surveys are misleading. Tulane University, for example, found in a survey that its graduates entering the job market in 2005 took home median pay of $135,000. But the number is based only on the 24 percent of its grads who completed the survey—likely to be the top students, Tulane says.

Tulane's latest survey shows average new pay for its grads to be of $96,356, but the school's Web site does not reveal what percentage filled out the questionnaire.

Salaries are depressed because of a big influx of lawyers into a slowly growing legal market, which is expanding less than half as fast as the general economy. Almost 44,000 students graduated from law schools in 2005-06, an increase of nearly 6,000 since 2001-02.

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Posted by Nancy - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 39 minutes ago

Legal education has become big business in the truest sense of the term “big business”. The more students lured into the door, the bigger the “cash cow” that monetarily nourishes the growing legal educational industry. Surveys are highly misleading. Six months after graduating from law school, I received a call asking if I had any employment—part time and even non-legal employment. Clearly, had I been working as a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, I would have been added to the survey column: “students securing employment within 9 months of graduation”.

Law school reform is long overdue. One possible answer is to reduce law school to two years and require a one-year PAID apprenticeship. Another caveat: never rely on the fox for information regarding the hen house.

Prospective students also have a duty to investigate the job market prior to leaping into the $100,000+ abyss of law student debt.
Posted by SK - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 37 minutes ago

This article is very true and accurate, especially for an individual living in a major city where the job market should be more flexible. As a 2007 graduate, not only are there very few jobs to apply to, but the jobs that are being offered usually consist of a salary range between $30-40,000. I am insulted with the salaries offered to first year associates, especially knowing I could be a paralegal for $50,000. I have had to resort to taking a legal secretary temp position which offers me $20 an hour, which is more than I was offered for a contract attorney position for $17. I certainly was not prepared when I graduated to be at such a loss for a job, the low pay I was expected to recieve, and the arrogance of the hiring attorneys who know that I am too desperate to perhaps pass up such a low offer.
Posted by Norm - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 29 minutes ago

Be prepared to go where the jobs are. In my state, New Mexico, very few entry positions are going to pay $100,000 but if you are willing to locate away from Albuquerque or Santa Fe, there’s plenty of work in the $50,000 range and our cost of living is low enough to make that work.
Posted by Elizabeth Royal - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 17 minutes ago

One remedy could be for the states to put a limit on the number of attorney licenses they are willing to grant to applicants each year. This could be accomplished by increasing the bar exam difficulty or by lottery. In any case, the level of desperation among unemployed and underemployed attorneys deserves strong intervention.

Blaming the victim, who was deceived into a $100,000 government guarantied loan, will be of little service. We believed in the American promise that if you go to school and study hard, you will be able to provide well for yourself.
Posted by A Lawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 13 minutes ago

From jdunderground:

The ABA has representatives for each district. Kind of like a congressman. Contact your representative and say this article alerted you to a problem that needs to be dealt with

—————-

Do this. Do this now. Strike while the iron is hot.

Remember, we used to make fun of L4L, telling him that his b*tching and whining would get him nowhere, that he didn’t have the balls to leave the law, etc. Now he’s broken the story to the WSJ, and the ABA has picked it up.

ALL OF YOU. WRITE YOUR ABA REPRESENTATIVE NOW. NOW!!!
Posted by DC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 11 minutes ago

Suck it up, kids. Nobody owes you anything.
Posted by Old Associate - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 6 minutes ago

Or, take the $40K job and get experience. Just because the first couple years are tough doesn’t mean it gets easier and the pay incrementally higher. It gets easier.
Posted by A Lawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 4 minutes ago

If any ABA representatives are reading, the situation is dire, and morale is very low among graduates in most law schools. Please look beyond the inflated numbers being reported for the largest law firms. 90% of law graduates will never see the insides of those firms. That is a fact.

The truth is… most law school graduates will be lucky to find a job - any job - legal or non-legal. The lucky ones get temporary discovery work for a living hourly wage, but even those are being offshored to India.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aBo8DnfekWZQ&refer=news

The WSJ article about the abysmal attorney job market and the article in Bloomberg about offshoring discovery work overseas is only the tip of the iceberg.
Posted by A Lawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 7 hours, 2 minutes ago

Dear “Old Associate”:

Pray tell, how can one take a $40,000 job if his loan payments are $1500 a month? Ah, this is why you’re a lawyer and not an accountant.
Posted by G - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 58 minutes ago

Unless you are absolutely passionate about practicing law (and how many of us are?), just don’t go to law school if you can’t get into a top-50 or so school. Go to b-school, start a business or do something else with your three years and $100,000+.
Posted by Some more desperation - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 57 minutes ago

It looks really bad…

In this thread, people are contemplating getting retail jobs and waiter jobs.

http://jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=4578
Posted by at the other end in NYC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 51 minutes ago

I agree with A Lawyer… Try being at the other end, 40 plus and looking for a job. Some of us are expected to support those kids going to college and law school and are making less than the starting salaries iat big firms and can’t find anything better.
Posted by Phil - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 45 minutes ago

Ms. Royal’s suggestion is about what I expected to find here: “One remedy could be for the states to put a limit on the number of attorney licenses they are willing to grant to applicants each year.“

Tough times for the cartel? Just make the cartel smaller!
Posted by MTC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 41 minutes ago

I’m not sure why this is just now making the news I graduated from law school in 1998. The surveys concerning how much attorneys make have always been highly misleading. I have no idea what they are based on. I know many attorneys who graduated with me that still don’t make anything like $135,000.

Most of the jobs that were offered to me out of law school came in two flavors government work (DA and PD work) at modest state salaries and sink or vaguely entrepreneurial positions that basically offered me a free office, and possible a small stipend of some sort, in someone’s firm if I could bring in billable hours.

I still don’t make as much as the surveys suggested I should but my law degree has served me well. I just wish someone could do a really reliable study on what attorneys’ incomes are so that I could quite hearing from my family about why I don’t make more money.
Posted by Bill - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 40 minutes ago

The party is over - even first and second years make $150k+ know that they are constantly at risk of getting the ax, as there are thousands more ready to fill their shoes. Firm Managements know this, which gives rise to the 80-hour work week, with a 2000 hour minimum (yeah right), which is more like hit 2200+ or don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Welcome to LAW2007. Better off taking the $90k job and put off by a condo and a nice car for 5 or 6 years. Better yet, skip law schoo, become a sales rep and hear $100k+ with benefits and very little student loans. After 3 years you’ll be so ahead of the game that it’ll make law school look like an exercise in financial irresponsibility.
Posted by TriLawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 39 minutes ago

My experience with law students today and law schools - this article is DEAD ON. As for the uncaring jackal who posted “Suck it up kids. Nobody owes you anything” - forget about that person. No where did I read in this article or have I experienced in my numerous contacts, people are clamoring for what is “owed” them. They don’t want to be intentionally misled for profit by others. Wow - what a HUGE expectation! Imagine…honesty. You see “DC” - something IS owed - honesty, forthrightness and a sense of ethics. I am sure you understand.

I also think it is interesting to look at the OTHER side of this story. So - let’s say you all GET the $160,000/yr job. Sure, it pays the bills (but less than you may think) - but do you really WANT that job? I have HAD that job. Although I could go on for a long while about the fraudulent and sham work/life at major law firms, I will just say this: The answer to this article’s question and the one I posed - think thoroughly before you leap.
Posted by SO - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 38 minutes ago

Nancy wrote “Prospective students also have a duty to investigate the job market prior to leaping into the $100,000+ abyss of law student debt.“

A good part of that research is looking at law school employment statistics. When these statistics are inflated and fraudulent it’s hard to make an accurate opinion about the market.
Posted by Brian - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 36 minutes ago

Let the marketplace take care of itself. Leave this one alone. People are already catching on to the fact that non tier 1 private law schools are a huge scam. If you can not get into a public law school in your state then you probably should not be going to law school in the first place. That lack of ability to get into a good law school is the same trait that leads one to take out $100k in loans to go to a private school where your job prospects are very bad. These poor souls are just unintelligent people doing what unintellgent people do (making bad decisions).
Posted by TriLawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 35 minutes ago

PS: Great posts by Bill and SO. Also dead on.
Posted by Ronnie - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 34 minutes ago

Actually, I agree with Old Associate. I have 200k in law debt on a $65k job. It’s called “talk to your lenders.“ They have programs to help work things out. You can often get a hardship forbearance, income-sensitive option, etc. Some lenders, such as the one I use, will give a forbearance if your loans equal more than 20% of your gross pay. I make more than 40k with a payment of less than $1500 and it was more than 20% of my pay, so I know arrangements can be made. It may not be the favorite solution, but it is a solution. Oh, and make a budget people! I know of very few people who can’t make ends meet on $20/hour, even with loans and a high cost of living (DC Metro). Stop complaining and do something for yourself. As DC says, no one owes you anything, especially if you’re not taking proactive steps to accommodate your own situation.
Posted by Anonymous - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 33 minutes ago

Should law schools curb their enthusiasm to rake in more profits by being completely truthful about the reality of the post-law school job market? Absolutely. I think only the best lawyers tell the truth, so it would be surprising to learn that prestigious schools like Tulane would feel that in the interest of making money, com[promising this value by being less than fully transparent is embarrassing at best, actionable at worst. However, should more advance research be done by prospective law school students—who these days are somewhat of a “brain drain” and bright enough to know better? You bet. Shame on them for blind faith in “American promise” when these days things have changed. Where there once was loyalty between employers and employees, today this seems gone. Kudos for recognizing that a strong work ethic is important, but being a success in law these days just takes more.
Posted by Dayslaw - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 29 minutes ago

Before starting my 7 years of school, in 1994, at age 40, I asked finanical aid to just give me the $100,000 loan and I would return it at the end of the year, with interest, and double it each year thereafter, as I always found a way to double my money playing around with cars and trucks. In 1993, the year before I started college, I made $54,000. In 2003, after finally getting through school and the bar, I made less than I did in 1994, and 2006 was the first year that I made a little bit more than 1994. Too bad they wouldn’t just loan me the $100,000!
Posted by DC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 27 minutes ago

Well, sir or ma’am, perhaps your “contacts” need to get a little wider. All I hear on boards such as this, and in the real world, is whining and bitterness from people who have been raised to believe that everything will be handed to them.

I have never heard any law school guarantee that everyone who graduates will get a high-paying job. If a law school made such a promise, you should have had them reduce it to writing. I understand that the unemployed and under-employed graduates aren’t entirely at fault - they were raised by their feel-good baby-boom parents to think that the entire world existed to cater to them.

Well, kids, you’re going to have to make your own way out there. It stinks you had to wait until you’re 26 to figure it out, but figure it out you will. Best of luck.
Posted by Gen Yer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes ago

Clearly there is an abyss between the experienced attorneys and the new graduates. I understand the value of taking a low paying job to earn your stripes and then move up. This type of approach was effective 10, 20, 30 years ago. However, the economics of law schoool graduates today does not allow an associate to earn his or her stripes while avoiding bankruptcy.

The comment by DC raises one question: How much student loan debt did you graduate with? With your use of the word kids, I can only assume that you are an established member of the law community. Therefore, I inherently value your opinion. However, your attitude as reflected in your comment makes me wonder if you seek to help nurture and train a new generation of attorneys or if you hope that the profession will fade into the sunset as you do.

There needs to be an open dialogue within the legal community so that all attorneys, no matter what age, may be able to understand the reason for the abyss and seek to build a bridge. If we fail to do this, then the wisdom of established attorneys will be lost.
Posted by Matt - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes ago

Right on Ronnie. It is what it is. So is life, deal with it.
Posted by Unemployed - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes ago

I agree! This market sucks! I graduated in May and I am thinking about changing professions already…and haven’t practiced a day in my life! The first person that offers me a job from ANY industry has me…
Posted by Old News - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes ago

There’s nothing new here. I graduated law school in 1996 and it took me almost a year to find full-time employment. When I got it, I had to remain in my small one bedroom and rely on public transportation to get anywhere. I ate granola bars for dinner and had the social life of a hermit - not because I was working so many hours but because I couldn’t afford four or five drinks at the local tavern. It was terrible, and those were some dark days. But I stuck it out, managed to make my loan payments every month, paid off those loans and have since worked hard enough that my current salary is six times what it was at my first full-time job.

If you want $160K per year as a first year, more power to you, but you better prepared to work hard not simply to get that job, but to keep it. The summer associate perks end as soon as you take possession of that law license. Think about the economics of it. If they’re paying you $160K, and if they’re charging in the neighborhood of $100K in overhead to you, you need to bill at least $260K per year before you are profitable to them. If as a first year you’re billing out at $200/hr, they’re going to expect at least 2000 hours out of you. It adds up to a work/no-life balance.

You can blame law school’s for beiing profit-driven (and probably also for not really preparing you to be an actual lawyer). You can blame Hollywood for glamorizing a profession that is really not that glamorous - no matter how much you might enjoy it. But there is an element of contributory negligence (I couldn’t let that pass) in all of this: there are plenty of resources out there (blogs, to name one) that paint the actual picture of earning potential for first-year grads and those entering law school ought to balance the reality of salaries against how much they take out in loans. Those who fail to make those determinations need to shoulder some of the blame for the predicament they now find themselves in.
Posted by Lee - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 7 minutes ago

Thirty years ago it was pretty much the same deal. Each law grad cannot have the preferred job in the preferred location at the preferred salary. Much like the “no student left behind” program advanced by certain politicians, it is statistically impossible to have everyone above the average.

We believe what we want to believe and the natural and predictable consequences may teach us otherwise.
Posted by Sheila B. - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 7 minutes ago

I wonder if, knowing the reality of the legal profession in all of its stressors piled on to the expense, how many attorneys would do it over again? How many would do it, but do it differently? Friends in the profession warned me before law school and I didn’t listen. Now I have a six-figure loan, three kids and a mortgage to support, and am earning a small fraction over my pre law school income. Yes, I believed my law school statistics on salary. I should have done more research, but I earnestly believed that lawyers who worked hard woul d live comfortably. So to answer my own question, I would not do it again because of the career options limited by law school debt, the commute, and the stress, which is not justified by the moderate pay.
Posted by The John Bungsolaphagus - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes ago

You only briefly and with little detail, touch upon the most important article on the state of the so-called legal “profession” to come out in years, if not ever? Short shrift to the “shot heard round the world” or the “atom bomb” of an article that accurately depicts the state of affairs for the MAJORITY of non-top 14 law school graduates who graduated from the beginning of the end in 2001 through the present?

If you folks, who are allegedly the stewards of the “profession” of the “law” truly care about the MAJORITY of those who make up said god awful “profession” then you need to make it your business to read the non-legal koolaid drinker’s postings, threads, blogs and comments on sites like JDunderground.com, temporaryattorney.blogspot.com, slumberingdogmatist.blogspot.com (which seems to have been taken down), barelylegalblog.blogspot.com, stateofbeasley.blogspot.com and others.
Be certain to read the posts of the patron saint for loser lawyers Scott Bullock a.k.a. “Law Is 4 Losers” and “L4L” which often describe work in lawland as being mostly paper pushing “make work”. Make work? Hmmm. What does that mean? Are we talking “fake” work? Work that really needn’t be done or, more importantly, shouldn’t be billed to the client but most obviously and most often is? Think about that one, will you? That is a major scandal in as of itself.

Why is there often and deliberately no training in lawland? Does sending out a newly minted, inexperienced attorney to do a task with absolutely no instruction, training or guidance make for efficient time management and accurate billing? Purposely withholding key nuggets of information from a deer in the headlights associate so that a 2 hour task becomes an 8 hour task that gets billed to the client as at least 6 hours billable time? Why is it that there very rarely is any training in lawland? Especially in mid sized or small law firms? Why is it that the associate ends up getting blamed for mishaps in such scenarios?

Go read the post on the “Demented Santa” on Tom The Temp’s temporaryattorney.blogspot.com which gives you insight into the behavior and contempt that most lawfirm partners show and have for recent graduate associates.

If you want to see what most of us non-top 14 law school grads are going through in this rapidly eroding “profession” then see the mountains of threads, postings and comments of those associates and young attorneys who are treated by the powers that be (law firms, partners, staffing agencies…) as though they are peons under the feudal system, untouchables in the caste system in India (speaking of India, what are you, over at the A.B.A. doing to prevent the outsourcing of doc review jobs, the only jobs available to many of us, to India?), and with the utter contempt that was shown to African American plantation slaves in the old south and to African Americans in American Society today.

A serious groundswell that could lead to a damn near rebellion or exodus from and collapse of the so-called “profession” of the “law” is occurring here and you only briefly comment on the WSJ article? For god’s sake, it’s so bad that a young lawyer, who happened to be a Rabbi, jumped out of a law firm’s window in the Empire State Building in New York this summer! A Rabbi, in New York, who had such bad experiences as a young lawyer at a law firm that he took the plunge to his death.

What is it going to take for you to starting looking at getting us recent law grad associates some decent treatment and fairness? Hostage takings? With the amount of misled and disillusioned recent law school grad attorneys being trampled upon by this profession on a daily basis, hostage takings, or worse, can very well occur at a law firm near you in the near future. These kids have been promised the world, by society in general and their law school admissions and career office’s post grad employment statistics in particular, only to find PEONAGE after admission to the bar. They often have to endure god awful and oft times ILLEGAL treatment or face unemployment and then default on mountainous law school loan debt.

It only takes one recent grad to flip out. You, the A.B.A., need to get these firms, staffing agencies and partners in check. Get them to treat us with some decency or sooner or later you better keep an eye out for your local news. And expect the worst if you don’t negate the oncoming outsourcing of the remaining crumbs of document review jobs to India.

God bless the patron saint for loser lawyers, Scott Bullock (a.k.a. Law is 4 Losers) and the author of the ground breaking Wall Street Journal article, Amir Efrati.
Posted by Anonymous - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes ago

I would never take a lawyer job for $30K; I worked for $25K in a law firm before I had a day of law school classes!!! I also have 7 years of retail & worked in a job not requiring weekends so anything like waitressing or retail i.e. a grunt job where weekends are not optional is out of the question at this point. I also got enough positions in my field to get rid of all retail references on my resume. I could make more money in adult entertainment & demean myself just as much. Plus my husband’s a librarian & when an entry-level librarian is making more than a lawyer, that’s a bad sign.

I’m actually doing entertainment internships right now since I want to be an entertainment lawyer. I get to see all sides of the legal aspects and get connections with people in the field. Soon, however, I will need money (and I don’t need $100K+; $75K will be fine). I saved a lot ahead of time to cover moving, taking the bar & finding work. One internship has the chance for me to get it & the person I’m working w/is aware that I have $350K in loans to repay. I’d like working for the company so long as I can pay off the loans since I refuse to still pay them in my 50s.

If some of these firms want to engender loyalty in new employees, they need to increase the pay so they don’t leave in 2 or 3 years for much higher pay. Not everyone is in law review, has parents who are lawyers or was born to money (which has a strong impact on grades anyway since who can afford all the study aides you MUST have). Comments like “go to the top law schools” prove to me that this profession is still based on money & a smart person from lower means might as well just become a criminal since he’ll never make it.

And DC, I wasn’t born to money so I certainly do not have an entitlement attitude—I wouldn’t know what to do with $100K a year so most of it would end up in loan payments & savings/investments; I just refuse to do the same thing my parents are doing when I’ve got twice the education. Common sense also dictates that more education = more money; how many times do you hear people telling others to go to school???? A college degree would get me far less pay than I can get as a J.D.

For the record, these folks trying to do retail & waiting tables are not going to get those jobs w/J.D.s (if they have a day of experience, forget it); you can’t even get paralegal work unless you’ve not taken the bar or say you don’t plan to become licensed. When I was in law school, people kept telling me to work in retail again like someone would hire a law student with 7 years of experience—are we familiar with the phrase “overqualified”????

Such jobs are a huge step down, DC so get off your ivory tower and take a look at how things really are. A law graduate should not be considering a job that college students take (I actually did retail in high school so you can see why I object to doing it).
Posted by New Lawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 57 minutes ago

One should not leverage oneself more than can be repaid, for education, or opening a business. If you do, you’ll fail. There is money and an enjoyable life to be found in the law, but its not worth $100k of debt, because at that amount a law student wont find it.

I went to a state school incurred $30k of debt while working through summers in lawschool and now I am making $50k, own a home, can take off early on Friday, and I’m building my practice. I would not be able to do that if I had leveraged my self to the hilt. Know what your getting into, and let those who don’t deal with their lack of foresight.
Posted by Southern Belle - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 55 minutes ago

This is a sad reality. I deal with this dilemma everyday. My mostly middle class family does not understand why I never seem to have any money and why I am always complaining about my expenses. They see me in this profession and think that I must have some other problem - other than low wages. What a misnomer. Between paying back my law loans and trying to live each day, there is nothing left to save for the future. I can’t say that I wasn’t warned by older lawyers before I entered law school. However, I was also misled by a slick law school recruiter who painted a very deceptive portrait of how my law degree from that high cost/prestigious law school was going to positively impact my and my family’s financial future.
Posted by Gen Yer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 55 minutes ago

I hate to use a cliche term of my generation, but those attorneys who dismiss the realities of today’s new attorneys are raging against the machine. We are slowly becoming the majority in this profession. This is reality is a small beam of light at the end of the tunnel for those of us who are waiting for change. Patience fellow assoiates, our time is drawing near.
Posted by DC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 53 minutes ago

Got that tin-foil screwed on pretty tight there, don’t you, John Bungsolaphagus?
I’ve been to India and comparing yourself to a member of India’s “untouchable” caste or to slaves held on plantations (!) is a ridiculous insult. If you believed that graduating from law school would immediately equal a porsche and a big house, that’s your problem. People who get their world view from TV, and feel they have been promised things by (ahem) “society in general” usually get exactly what they deserve.
Posted by STL Atty - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 30 minutes ago

I’m a partner in a top St. Louis, MO law firm. I graduated law school 15 years ago but didn’t get my first job as an attorney until 10 months after I passed the bar exam. Had the student loan debt, very few interviews, and regret that I made the wrong career choice.. Made ends meet doing odd jobs, some legal, some not, during the 15 mos following law school graduation. This was a very humbling experience but when I finally got that first job allowing me to practice law, I vowed never to be unemployed or underemployed again and busted my butt in every way imaginable to learn how to be a trial attorney. Today I have a very successful practice (and client base) but I don’t know if I ever would’ve made it this far had I not developed a fire in my gut during the lean times following law school. Moral of the story for those of you struggling to get that first job: work like hell to get it regardless of the pay and then work twice as hard to master whatever area of law you are lucky enough to practice in. The money and hopefully cllients will come but don’t expect a six figure salary until you can bring something more than “potential” to the table. I was able to write my own ticket after developing a portable book of business. Took some time and a little luck, but that was the key to getting me where I am now.
Posted by Jesse - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes ago

I completely agree with the article. I graduated from a “third tier” school and looked to stay in Ohio - a depressed economy. While my school inflated the median salary to over $40,000 - still modest, the career placement office gave students the expectation that making $50 -$75k in Cleveland was entirely possible in private practice. That turned out to be a complete lie. I now have my own practice (four years out of law school) and last year grossed about $55k - not counting expenses. What the law schools don’t tell you is that if you don’t make it in the top 10% or top 25% of your class you will be clawing your way out of a pit just trying to find a job, with no chance of making 80-100k your first year out.
Posted by Now retired at 52 - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes ago

Congratulations! You’ve now discovered the dirty little secret of the legal profession. In 1997, I received my JD and passed the bar. I was unemployed for 1-1/2 years and didn’t get a PDs job until I interned with them for 6 months. When I got the job, it was at the princely sum of $28,000 per annum. This was in spite of my extensive real estate and mortgage lending experience as a former CEO.

Unless you are in the top 10% of the class or you have strings to pull or favors to cash in, your stuck fighting for the crumbs at the bottom. Yes, you can still make it, but you’ve got to be good. Just remember: 90% of all law school graduates did not graduate in the top 10% of their class. Fortunately for me, when the job became too burdensome and dangerous, I was able to retire. I did so 1 week before I turned 50 because of my investment portfolio, not because of my earnings as an attorney. And, yes, I am much happier now. Good luck to you all – you are participating in the fight of your life!!
Posted by Snobby in the City - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 5 hours, 4 minutes ago

So this is what befalls the tens of thousands of graduates from low-ranked (read: tier 2, 3, and 4) law schools.

So many people end up going to law school simply because they don’t know what else to do. Really, I can’t blame them. I mean, what else can you actually do with a poli sci or history degree?

My advice: major in something USEFUL in college and get a job based on that skill. Alternatively, if you’re dead-set on being a lawyer, study your butt off, nail the LSAT and get into a top 20 school. Otherwise, don’t complain about having to take the $20/hr temp job (which, btw, is less than I make now as a second-year law student working part-time; hard work pays off; oh yeah, and being smart can help too).

Believe it or not, I actually agree with the article and the many folks who have said that schools need to be a bit more honest in their reporting of salaries. However, the responsibility ultimately falls on the individual to do her own research in order to make an informed decision. I couldn’t agree more with the “look before you leap” philosophy.
Posted by The John Bungsolaphagus - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 52 minutes ago

The post numbered 38 made by Now retired is one of the most on point postings on the nature of the law profession for 90% of the grads out there that I have ever seen. Now retired is not some sniveling gen “Yer” with major self entitlement issue, rather he is grown ass man who has done well in the real word of business and all of you lemmings out there should take heed to the iron in his words of wisdom. The lemmings and the ABA should know that his words are the truth about this god awful profession.
Posted by Gina - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 49 minutes ago

As a lawyer and a former law school Legal Career Professional, I, like many others, am distressed by the deceptively high salary “medians” and “averages” reported in surveys and reports. Unfortunately, as with the Tulane survey, many law graduates do not report their salaries to their schools. While they will happily inform us of their employment, they respectfully decline to share their salary information. These same individuals later ask us why we are “deceiving” law students what’s the real deal in the real world. My response is to tell those individuals that they contribute to the problem by not sharing salary information with us. When detailed is information received, then detailed information may be reported. So while it might not help increase the salaries, this detailed information will aid law students and those contemplating law school in knowing in advance what their financial future will be.
Posted by Ronnie - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 45 minutes ago

I rarely comment twice, but here it is. I went to one of the top 14 schools!! I graduated in the top 40% of my class. I still didn’t have a job when I graduated, and I promise you it wasn’t because I didn’t look. Those in the lower tiers assume that we in the uppers have life handed to us—it’s just not true. Did it ever occur to you that the reason so many jobs have low start ranges is because people have to actually BILL and GET PAID from the clients to cover their bills? I have to make sure I bill enough each month to cover what I cost, plus a share of overhead, receptionists, and our secretary. Not easy when there are only 3 attorneys in the office. Large firms have hundreds of attorneys all contributing to this, and that significantly helps reduce the per-person cost. Look, I’m not saying the law schools don’t bear some responsibility here. I’m just saying that a lot of students do have entitlement issues, and feel certain jobs are beneath them. My closest friends are a prosecutor, judicial clerk, victim’s rights advocate, and public defender. I know at least three of them have loans like I do, but sometimes you do break the pedestal you’re on to get to the one you deserve to have.
Posted by A Dual Professional - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 34 minutes ago

Everyone here is talking about practicing law, but there is a segment of students that do not intend to do so. I went to law school to use the education as an adjunct to my profession as an engineer. I have moved to the senior level in my organization because of extra skills and insight the law degree provided in managing large projects. The degree was worth every penny I paid.
Posted by MadProfessor - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 31 minutes ago

I am employed by a law school. Law schools are in the business of making money. To get that money, law schools will make things look as rosy as possible for the incoming students. I feel horrible every time I see an incoming class, most of whom will be over $100,000 in debt in three years, looking so optimistic - as though there is nothing but bright sun, blue skies, and a fat paycheck waiting for them. Do I blame the students for this unrealistic outlook? Absolutely not. I blame the institutions that gave these students skewed data that would make anyone want to earn a J.D. Someone needs to hold law schools accountable for their deceptive misrepresentations about post-law school legal employment. I have said many, many good things about the law school from which I graduated in 1992 - one of which is that the school NEVER mis-represented the fact that the legal employment market in its geographic area was in a major downturn with 2-5 year associates being laid off, etc. So I went in with my eyes open, thanks to having true information to evaluate.
Posted by Johnson - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes ago

Im declaring bankruptcy and moving to Mexico.
Posted by Gen Yer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes ago

An assumption has been made that I am sniveling and that I have self entitlement issues.

That assumption is unfortunate. I am making $40,000 a year and I also have a very large debt, a family and mortgage payments. I do not want to become rich and, considering the western, low population state I live in, I have no grand ideas of earning a 6 figure salary. I merely want to provide for myself and my family which is difficult on my current salary.

It is clear that this particular issue is of great importance to some and dismissed by others. I suggest open communication and an attempt to understand the situation of the new associates. The more we throw mud and lose our tempers when trying to make a point, the less we will be heard. Take a deep breath John Bungsolaphogus.
Posted by lionvt - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes ago

There are lots of professions with lousy starting salaries. There are lots of professions with a huge gap between the entry level positions and the highest echelons. So I don’t think us lawyers can pretend to be a special case or need special treatment. But I don’t think most people and most law students understand the law is like that.

And, in my experience, most established lawyers make a decent, if not spectacular, living.

However, where I think the disconnect is an incorrect perception of the types of salaries that your average attorney makes by both the populace and law students (often promoted by gushy articles including those in the ABA journal (http://www.abajournal.com/news/3100_a_week_for_summer_associates/)) and the extreme expense of going to some law schools. Imagine you want to go into the music industry. You are probably aware that there is a big pay gap between what an intern makes and what Jennifer Lopez makes. You are probably also aware that your average music industry employee makes a decent but not spectacular living. And no one entices you to spend $100K to major in music before you take that job at Geffen Records as an intern.

I’m not sure that is true in the law. Law students look at the John Edwards, Gerry Spence, etc. and think all lawyers make $250,000+ a year. Not true. But most, I would guess, make between $65,000 and $100,000 per year and live in cities or towns where that is a good, if not spectacular, living.

I think the other disconnect is fostered by law schools and not well examined is the price of your investment in your education and your chance for return on that investment. Now if you want to and have the ability to land that $200,000/yr job in a top tier law firm in NYC, DC or LA – then spending $100K on your education might make sense. But what of the rest of us? If you knew you were going to make $45 to $75K/yr for the next 20 years – would you spend $100+K on your education? You might not. There are very few other professions where you are enticed to plunk down $100K for a chance to get a $45K/yr job. I went to a 3rd tier public law school and have never regretted it and was minimally burdened by my law school loan. This allowed me to have jobs that led me to the success that I have now.

I think we all understand that if we wanted guaranteed return on investment, we would have studies computer science or engineering. That was made clear to me in college. But you can chase a bigger salary in the law, but you should know that most lawyers are not paid that way. Your choice.
Posted by Pomp - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 22 minutes ago

Most of these comments reflect major shortcomings in the writer’s clarity of thought. I sure as hell wouldn’t want most of these people representing me in something important. It’s a sad fact, but some people just aren’t smart enough to make good lawyers, so it’s no wonder that they aren’t offered jobs as lawyers simply by virtue of graduating from law school. hth!
Posted by anonymous - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 16 minutes ago

I think most people are missing the point. A law degree is essentially worthless, and the new lawyers have been conned into paying an outrageous amount of money for it. Other professions, such as M.D.s, also graduate with a lot of debt, but they earn higher starting salaries. The difference? Their professional education is real and worthwhile and they pay their dues during it. Prospective lawyers are fooled into believing that going to law school prepares them to practice law effectively. It doesn’t. That’s why they are commodities upon graduation and worth so little.
Posted by Jackson5 - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes ago

Why do we have to pay for our legal education? I think Im owed an education. I think society owes me an education. What do you old farts in the profession have to say about that?
Posted by DC Associate - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 4 hours, 4 minutes ago

STL Atty- Thank you for your insight.
I keep telling myself every day that the harder I work the more it will pay off. Sometimes it is hard to see a payoff for work, like when you are waiting to hear back fromt the board of bar examiners. Occasionally though, I will get glimpses, when a pleading I drafted turns out to be successful in a motions hearing, or a client says ‘thank you,‘ and then I feel like I made the right decision in spite of the 35,000 salary and debt.
I don’t really even need $75,000.00, all I really need is to know that I will be okay, that I can afford to feed myself and pay my bills, that I will be a good attorney, someone you can trust to do the job as good as possible.
Nonetheless, I want to work here in this place and develop as much skill in real property law/litigation as possible and hopefully draft some articles. Reading your post was reassuring for me, and I wanted to say thank you.
Posted by Steve Johnson - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 59 minutes ago

And how many practicing attorneys not in a “big” firm are willing to disclose their real income? Does keeping up appearances make us part of the problem? There a vast range: big firm (good $$ year & no cardiac); small firm, solo, part time, etc. and all incomes are not above average. So: Don’t ask - Don’t tell.
Posted by baby boomer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 54 minutes ago

With 20 years in, I am startled by the starting salaries quoted annually in the papers. My starting salary was $35,000 in 1987. Thankfully, my income has increased substantially in advance of inflation over these last two decades, but I will never be wealthy. That’s okay with me. I work hard and am loyal to my clients, have a great staff and a good reputation among my colleagues, and I have time for my family and my volunteer commitments. For me there is no other profession that could provide me with the freedom, income, and personal satisfaction that I get from practicing law. There will always be work for good lawyers. Have faith, work hard, and don’t treat any opportunity with disdain. Make something of it, and of yourself in the process.
Posted by Jacob - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes ago

To the person above who called non-tier one private law schools a scam -

Perhaps you should consider the fact that the law school ranking system in and of itself is a joke. It is that type of “tiered” thinking that leads to part of the larger problem, because firms then begin to only hire from those “fantastic” law schools at the top. The reality is that law school education is essentially the same no matter what school you go too, but the school with the highest alumni contributions and largest collection of old books are somehow considered a tier above the rest. Give me a break.
Posted by Frankie - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 35 minutes ago

What job doesn’t suck? For 99% of all of us, the answer is none! Hollywood makes every job look glamorous. I was a teacher for several years before coming back to law school. Talk about overworked and underpaid, and utterly an utterly futile endeavor to boot. I may not make the six figure average that most schools profess, but at least I won;t qualify for food stamps when I graduate!

So, if you are angry because you spent a bunch of money on an education and don’t feel you are getting the return you were promised, you have a right to be jaded. But just keep two things in mind

1. You job will probably always suck, no matter what you do for a living. You boss will be an jerk, you will have to work way too hard, and you will never earn what you are worth.

2. If you had to struggle as a lawyer or as a cashier at Wal Mart which would you rather do? Okay, you aside, what do you think most people would rather do?
Posted by J - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes ago

Here’s another perspective. Everyone here is throwing around numbers - percentages for student loans, salaries, average hours worked, numbers quoted by law schools regarding “success” of its graduates, tiers of law schools, etc. Here is another number for you: if everyone that went to law school for the wrong reasons (money, prestige, family expectations, etc.) suddenly evaporated from the lawyer labor market, we would not have this problem, at least not on the present scale. Just as important as researching your potential pay upon graduation is the research a prospective law student should do on whether a career in the law is really something that they will find rewarding.
I am not a 20-something just coming to terms with having made the leap into a legal career and questioning my decision. I am a third year law student, a single mother, and 40-something. I don’t anticipate having a really difficult job finding a job, partly because of my experience as a paralegal (i.e., I understand how the real world works) and also because my expectations for salary are not through the roof. I want a job that is challenging, a way to help people, to make a decent living, and am passionate about the area in which I want to practice. My advice is this: whether you are a first year student, an unemployed lawyer, a lawyer making bank at a big firm, or a new graduate still looking for a job after a couple of years—if that voice in your head is telling you that you are not happy and cannot imagine how you ever will be as a lawyer, then get the hell out! Now. While the only loss to you is tremendous debt. Because that is nothing compared to decades spent doing a job that leaves you feeling rotten. I have worked for some bitter old a-holes those who didn’t have the wisdom to realize their mistake, learn from it, and get on with their lives by finding a more rewarding career. Think long and hard, gather advice, and talk to as many practicing attorneys as you can before making the decision to pursue a legal education. And even if you’ve already racked up the debt and don’t want to “waste” the money spent on long school, think about the fact that there are much bigger “wastes.“
Posted by Lindsay Nixon - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 27 minutes ago

School is a “big business” in this country. I was lucky to have job lined up when I graduated this May. I work for the state government and have learned two things. Plumbers and Electricians make far more money than I do and they didn’t even go to college! Plus, they actually seem happy - and content - with their jobs. If I could do it all over again? I’d have been a personal trainer. If you don’t think education is a big business—calculate tuiton x the number of students. Even if janitors were paid $200k a year, the schools “net profits” for the year are still in the millions—any school. pick one.
Posted by SO - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 27 minutes ago

STL Attorney - That’s a nice thought but how do I pay my student loans in the meantime while working a 35K a year job????
Posted by Another Bitter Lawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 26 minutes ago

There is an easy way to rescue the profession before it collapses…STOP OPENING NEW LAW SCHOOLS (maybe even close a fee), limit class sizes, limit the ridiculously increasing tuition costs, and demand honest and realitstic disclosure from schools on the value of their education (i.e. job prospects)!!! If the DOJ settlement is the basis for the dramatic increase in new toilet law schools, then the ABA needs to take action. The ABA is made up of a bunch of lawyers for gods sake. How does the AMA have better lobbyists than the ABA? 196 law schools and over 6000 new graduates a year is killing all of us. As one poster above suggested…once the doc review jobs go overseas the entire legal profession will collapse. The only thing other than that available for those not in the top 10% of their class is either PI or ID work for literally $30k to $50k. and have $150k+ in loans. Once doc review leaves those job will pay like $20k to $30k and you’ll have a ton of banrupt lawyers. WIll the ABA be embarassed at that point? What is wrong with the ABA wehen they take no steps to protect the interests of its young lawyers? Is BIGLAW all that the ABA concerns itself with? The ABA should call for an emergency panel to figure out what to do before an Attorney General gets involved or massive lawsuits against the ABA and individual law suits commence. DO SOMETHING!!! HELP US!!!!
Posted by Just Graduated - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 24 minutes ago

I graduated from a top-tier law school, but I was no where near the top of the class…and I was saying to a friend just yesterday how much of a big business law school is—its the biggest pyramid scheme in America…The law schools make so much money churning graduates out that they have no concern that they might be flooding the market with more lawyers than the actual job market can bear…It costs a student roughly $45,000 per year for school and my school has about 1,300 students—thats an income of $58, 500,000 per year! Such an income gives absolutely no incentive to limit the number of graduates they pump out…it isnt just up to the Bar to limit who passes—the passing percentage in CA is already at 51% so the odds are against you anyway—it is the law schools that need reform to not flood the market with more lawyers than the market can handle….
Posted by anonymous - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 22 minutes ago

I was a paralegal before law school, so I knew how snobby law firms are - that lower tier folks can’t get the time of day. I only applied to top, respected law schools—because I wasn’t going to go and make that $100k debt if I didn’t get into a top school. I’m thinking there is little/bad research going on . . .

Further, after working at one of those “big firm” jobs for several years as an associate, we knew what we were in for . . . weirdly enough, todays graduates are so much more “soft” and won’t work as hard, or insist on more “interesting work” only. Definite disconnect between the folks being hired out of law school these days and the billable/salary situation.
Posted by Melissa - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 5 minutes ago

Are any of you exploring loan repayment assistance programs in your areas? I landed a fantastic job 3 months before graduating doing exactly what I wanted to- public interest environmental law. I’ve got over 100K of debt and I only bring in 40K per year, but because of the public interest character of my work, I qualify for all kinds of outside funds. I got $12K worth of assistance this year alone, and I’ve been guaranteed 18K from my state over the next 3 years so long as I remain in the public interest. I love my job, so I’m not going anywhere, and thanks to these programs, I can swing repayment without having to compromise my passion.

And one last word of advice- do something you love. If you cannot find peace in the legal realm, then do something else. Life’s too short to hate your job…or your life.
Posted by Bklyn Law Grad in NYC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 3 hours, 3 minutes ago

I graduated from Bkjlyn Law several years ago and have been workin in the area of insurance defense and civil litigation for about 2 1/2 years now as an attorney. Fortunately for me, I did get a job right out of LS but it paid horribly low wages (under 45K). Even with experience, my salary right now hovers in the low to high 60s, which isn’t horrendous but considering I have been practicing for a while, its not that wonderful. The only thing I am grateful is having listened to my parents who told me not to take out massive loans for college and law school. My combined student loan debt right now is a manageable $ 55K which on a 30 year repayment plan is only $300/month. However, my biggest worry right now is saving for retirement/401K (because my small firm is cheap and doesn’t offer any of these programs and deducts $ 200/mo for my health coverage with a shitty HMO) and being able to make my $1,600/mo mortgage payments.
Posted by terri - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 56 minutes ago

If you think it’s bad, try being a black lawyer coming out of law school. Not only will you not get an interview at a large firm, you may not get any interviews at all. In my city, many of the firms have no minority associates. But the one thing many people overlook is, you don’t have to work for anyone. You have a profession not a job. Take what you have, start your own practice, and you will prosper. I know that with God all things are possible.
Posted by STL Atty - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 48 minutes ago

SO—Work w/ your lender to forebear or refinance your loans at lowest interest rate possible. Buy your own home as soon as possible and consolidate loans/cash out equity at the earliest opportunity to apply to your student loan balance. Take advantage of all tax deductions. Pay $1000 or more toward your student loan balance at the end of each year. Pay ‘til it hurts. Sign up and refer plaintiff cases to your friends/classmates who are plaintiff’s attorneys. Follow your jurisdication’s law of fee splitting. The power of a referral fee may surprise you. Better yet, take on plaintiff’s cases yourself. If time and your firm permits, take on less glamorous work like traffic or misdemeanor cases, none of which is rocket science—every additional fee you earn is that much more in your pocket. Do all this religously for 5 to 10 years and you’ll be astonished at the results.
Posted by Patrick Keeley - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes ago

It’ simportant that new graduates learn about the relaities, for the majority it is a struggle to make it. But it clearly can be done and that dream will keep the flow coming. Nobody sees themselves as being in the bottomhalf,irrespective of law school place.
Posted by David H - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes ago

I feel sorry for those students who have attended 3rd and 4th tier law schools, only to find that their employment prospects are less than rosy; however, who assumes that attending a low-tierschool of any kind will result in a high-paying job?
Posted by Lenny - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 41 minutes ago

Ya man try being a Pakistani Attorney in post 9-11 NYC. Its crazy trying to make some pay with my law license. They always want to keep a brother down. Solidarity!
Posted by STL Atty - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 30 minutes ago

DC-You’re welcome. Rome wasn’t builit in a day. Stay focused on the big picture. Sounds like you enjoy what you’re doing. Never be afraid of criticism by partners and try to welcome all forms of feedback. Learn from your mistakes. The best lessons I learned were when I got my butt kicked by an opponent or the senior partner I worked for. Always strive to improve your work product. Become indispensable to your firm by taking on projects that no one else wants and/or become the firm expert on certain types of “undesirable” tasks. My forte was jury instructions. When a client calls and says “jump”, always say “how high” w/ enthusiasm. Same for partners you work with. Good luck and hang in there.
Posted by Vulture - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes ago

I dont understand how Ms Royal’s suggestion, of limiting the number of attorney licenses, will help the recent graduate. The whole discussion is that recent law school graduates, have a large loan to pay off and very little job opportunities.

Perhaps the ONLY upside to going to law school is that law graduates can have a license to practice law. So if things go really bad, they can represent someone at court, draft a will, file a pleading and start up a solo practice. The only thing that limiting the number of attorney licenses will do is furthur diminish the opportunities that are available.

I do however agree that legal education has become big business and reform is overdue. A really good suggestion was to limit law school to two years with one year apprenticeship, this will lower the debt, provide a real life taste of what to expect and generally produce a better quality of lawyers in the market.
Posted by SO - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 24 minutes ago

STL - You are living in a fantasy world. Buy my own home, are you freakin kidding me??? Where do you think I’m going to get a down payment or even afford to pay a mortgage? I’ve worked with my lenders and you can only forbear for so long.
Posted by Jason - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes ago

No one is talking about the elephant in the room. The ABA is accrediting law school after law school in areas that already have a saturation of lawyers. In Florida, FAMU literally has a law school directly across from FSU’s. The AMA doesn’t accredit medical schools willy-nilly, purposefully to keep admission to the medical profession restricted to the most qualified and to keep salaries high. The ABA needs to do the same, not to mention state legislatures.
Posted by STL Atty - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 18 minutes ago

SO-Actually, I was living with my parents 15 years ago, for about 2 and 1/2 years after law school. No one is going to hand anything to you. Go out and earn it. Student loans suck, believe me, I know from experience. See my above post to DC about how to do something about it.
Posted by SM - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes ago

Secret? How is this a secret? Didn’t anyone read “Law School Confidential” before they enrolled?
Posted by SO - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 5 minutes ago

STL you are not realistic, lets just leave it at that.
Posted by Bklyn Law Grad NYC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 1 hour, 58 minutes ago

I don’t think limiting the # of licenses helps. If anything, it just makes the state bar offices richer..since it makes financial sense for them to fail a third of the July bar takers in order to secure additional fees for retaking the exam the following February (and a high percentage of failures in July WILL fork over a lot of $$$ to retake).

The ABA needs to stop opening new law schools, simple as that. The law schools also need to limit the # of new students. If I wasn’t accepted to BLS or the other Tier 2s at the time I applied, I seriously would not have bothered getting my JD at all. The problem is law schools who care about taking anyone w/ a pulse and pumping them out into a glutted market. Its not like the medical schools do the same thing. If you bomb the MCAT, your option is vet school or a med school in the Caribbean, or not even going to any med school at all. Why cant law schools follow this model?

Secondly, I was lucky in that my loans were low because I lived at home until I bought my own place. Those first 5 years really sucked, but if it weren’t for the financial sacrifice, I wouldn’t be a homeowner today..I seriously feel bad for the folks with 6 figure debt. Personally, I couldn’t stomach the idea of undertaking that much debt for a JD from a TTT (which we all know that anything below the top 10 schools or so is a gamble re: post-grad salaries).
Posted by STL Atty - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 1 hour, 50 minutes ago

Doesn’t matter to me whether you perceive my experiences as being realistic or not SO. I started in the whole and managed to dig out and gave some examples of what worked for me. Not saying go buy a house tomorrow but at least start with some type of plan or goal to work toward. Granted, I don’t know evey detail of your situation, but as a lawyer you’re paid to solve problems for others. You better figure out a way to solve your own or your prospects for builiding a practice and making a living in this business are bleak, that’s how I’ll leave it.
Posted by NC - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 1 hour, 46 minutes ago

this information was a secret? A
Posted by Get Real - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 1 hour, 38 minutes ago

Hard work is the key. If you are lucky enough to have a legal job with bad pay, you are doing really well. Learn everything you can. There should not be too much work that is beneath you. When you find out that you have passed the bar sign up for some pro bono projects where you get trained OJT. Keep looking for something that pays more.

If your full time legal job does not pay the bills get a part time job as well. Live within your means. Use credit wisely.

If this does not begin to pay off within a time frame you are comfortable with, quit and do something you think is easier.
Posted by Professor - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 1 hour, 17 minutes ago

OK boys and girls, sounds to me like some of you truly feel deceived and defrauded by certain 2nd or 3rd tier law schools making illusory promises of pots of gold at the end of the law school rainbow. You guys paid top dollar and now have nothing to show for it. Time to dust off your Torts textbook. Remember the term “class action”? Someone make an argument. I bet this has gone through the mind of one you plaintiff’s lawyers out there by now.
Posted by Ashwin - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 1 hour, 14 minutes ago

Everybody has a few good points. I knew about the legal job market before I entered law school as a result of doing some database work for huge law firms. To start of with, if you are not in a Top 100 law school, a majority of the legal job market is automatically closed to you. If you want to make $100+ starting, you probably have to graduate in the top 20-25% of your class. I think a lot of people dont know why exactly they are in law school. I only went b/c I had an undergraduate engineering degree & the job market in the IP/Patent sector is good. But if you are not in the top of the class & on law review etc., you will probably never see the inside of a big 160+ law firm.

Unfortunately, the typical profile of a law grad today is this: B.A, Poli Sci or Social Sciences, J.D., some forgettable law school. There are a million clone copy resumes of the above profile. There is no way to differentiate these law grads. So I think having some interesting experience before you enter law school help a whole lot.

There are a lot of ignorant people in law school. The other day, this girl in my class blurts out, “Oh…I thought DA’s start off at $100k a year.“ I think understanding world economics, globalization etc is going to help you. The legal market will never be the same. I am Indian & I know tons of people in India who want a big bite out of the US law empire treasury. Like people mentioned, document outsourcing is already happening. Just type in “LPO” - Legal Process Outsourcing in Google & see how many hits you get. So mindful of this, I think an international perspective is absolutely necessary these days. There is money to made across the world & if you want to limit yourself to 50 miles from your geographical area, then your future of the world will be grim indeed. This is just the modern reality of globalization & there is nothing any of us can do about it, other than embrace it & prepare for it.

Finally, I would urge the ABA to make it standards a lot tougher. There are a lot of ABA-approved law schools that are just shit. All the non-ABA law schools should just be shut down (CA especially - we have too many of these). Most end up going into shitty PI work & clogging our court system up. They flood the legal market with incompetency & trash. Do you know the majority of legal malpractice & disciplinary actions are against grads of non-ABA approved law school. Heck, in CA you can open up your own law school in your mom’s basement & charge somebody $5000 a year to prepare them to take the California bar.

But in the end, you should be passionate about law school. I see so many students in my school who just dont have the passion. They are not really interested in anything. They dont want to change anything. I dont understand that at all. You are paying a lot of money for your JD, so make sure it is a smart decision.

Good luck to everybody.
Posted by TX - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 54 minutes ago

Too many fox go to law school because they think that it is an easy way to make a lot of money. It isn’t. We should not forget why lawyers are around- to achieve justice and help others. Everybody complains about the market, but look around and see how many fox are in need of legal representation.
Posted by Kurt Elkins - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 43 minutes ago

Post 81 above made some good points. most of my classmates at the non ABA school i called home for 4 years have not yet passed the california bar. I took it several times before passing. I started as a solo from day 1 after admission, never sent a resume for any legal job. Why would i want to make 40-50K? i made more before law school. This is a business for me. My advice to the 2t 3t grads is to learn how to run a legal shop as a businees. I made 300k+ my first year and ytd am over 500K this year doing transaction work. 2500$ and up for a will and i average 6 a week. i could pay off my 70k student loans in under 5 weeks but the smart thing to do is let them ride at 3.41% apr. Best of luck to all of you and do not let “the system” get you down. it is wonderful at the top!
Posted by Biruk - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 25 minutes ago

Could anyone comment on the future prospect of a a lwyer graduated from top 10 schools in the top ten and black?
Posted by ok - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 21 minutes ago

Biruk - is he or she can’t spell “lawyer,“ I would characterize the prospects as “not too good.“
Posted by baby boomer - 1 year, 2 months, 4 days, 21 minutes ago

Responding to Biruk: The future of the candidate described is so bright he/she will “have to wear shades.“
Posted by Ronnie - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes ago

Just remember Biruk: you are (sadly) the exact person people will point to and say “Hey! She/He got where he is because of affirmative action!“ Not trying to start a debate here, just letting you know so you can watch out for it. Congratulations though! You will be A-OK!!
Posted by Andrea - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes ago

Kurt Elkins, Congrats! I would follow in your footsteps if I had any startup money at all, maybe in a few years. I could work out of my house and cut back expenses but I would still need to pay my own personal bills. Sigh, one of these days.
Posted by linck - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 22 hours, 58 minutes ago

I went to architecture school prior to law school. At the end of 3 years at $27,000/year in tuition, I had $60,000+ in loans. I felt lucky to have a starting salary of $37,000; I worked really hard, freelanced during evening and weekends, and managed to pay back my loans in four years. At the end of my 3 years in law school, I will have slightly more loans than I did after earning my M.Arch, but I am likely to earn more, even in the current market.

To all the recent JD graduates who are dismayed at earning $50,000/year, you are still doing much better than your colleagues in architecture. In fact you are doing better than the average American family.
Posted by Charlotte Marie 20 yr lawyer - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 19 hours, 53 minutes ago

My advice: Work hard at $20,000 or $200,00. Pay yourself first,every paycheck. Get a good job as a prosecutor or as counsel in a state, municipal or fed agy. Invest wisely and retire at 45,50 and start a new career in something that ignites passion within you. There are a lot of unhappy lawyers out there. Just as many as there are unhappy professionals in any area. You can make it work to your advantage. But don’t frown on those public jobs and pine away for life in the law firm fast lane. There is more to life than that. Do what ignites your soul. Money will come, no matter what.
Posted by Wanda - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 19 hours, 44 minutes ago

Brian and David’s posts about their 1st and 2nd tier schools are prime examples of the snobbery that exists in the legal field. My school is a 4th tier school but their bar pass rate is the highest in the state. Yes, higher than the 2nd tier schools. I think that should be more important than how old your school is.
Posted by bg - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes ago

I graduated in 1998 and even then the job market was bad. I was in the top quarter of my class, was a paralegal for a number of years before going to law school, and it still took a me a year to find a job. Given the prevalence of the internet, there is no excuse for anyone’s ignorance as to the real state of the legal job market or starting salaries. And I would be willing to bet that most students would still go even if they knew the reality about their future prospects. Let’s face it. Everyone thinks they will be the exception and get the high paying job.

When I was in law school, my school was actually in the process of cutting back its class size in order to reduce the number of graduates. The dean believed that the school had a duty to the students and profession not to simply churn out graduates if there were not enough jobs. Unfortuantely, the current dean does not share his belief and class sizes have increased and are larger ever since she took over.

And for the record, it is possible to pay your student loans on an “insulting” salary. I had over $130k in student loans when I graduated and took a job in the low $30s. Because I was already six years into repayment on my undergrad loans, they were subject to full repayment, no reductions, no forebearances except unemployment. Law school loans, however, are subject to consolidation, repayment plans, and forebearance. I used them all. I still don’t make the starting salary for my class at the big firms in town, but my salary is considerably more than when I started, allows me to pay my loans, have an expensive hobby, and buy a house. One other thing to consider before thumbing your nose at the low paying job. My firm also provides me with a life! and I actually enjoy my job and the people I work with. When I saw law school friends a few years after graduation at a wedding, while they all made more money than me, not to many of them could say the same.
Posted by NM - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 18 hours, 6 minutes ago

Law school is the best education I’ve ever had, I would do it all over again. Job markets are always tight such is nature of supply and demand.
Posted by hero - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 17 hours, 2 minutes ago

Job? Hell, I graduated from a TTT and would be happy to just know enough to pass the fucking bar. I can’t believe the shit I had to learn from Bar Bri that my school did not teach me. And I STILL failed!!! Can I get a refund? Does the school have to answer for what they did or failed to do?? HA! No, fuck this - I’m going to open up another TTT and do the same thing - milk unsuspecting kiddies of federal student loans for worthless fucking degrees that can’t even get you in the door of a doc review job. FUCK THIS SHIT AND FUCK ALL OF YOU TTTs!!!!!!!
Posted by scuffy - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 10 hours, 47 minutes ago

I think Law School is GREAT. I am in a 4T school with just above average grades, doing clinic (Federal and State court experience) and working my but off literally and figuratively (went from size 16 to an 8). I’m not a smoker and rarely drink. I was not a kid going into law school so I have not been playing at it. Will I be employed above $30K? Who knows but then I did not take out loans, received no scholarships and NEVER wore shower shoes to get my education. Moaners - go work at legal aid and get some experience and get paid for helping out while you gain experience!
Posted by patatt - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 7 hours, 11 minutes ago

Like anything else, students should research and perform due diligence before starting law school. Law school is an investment in yourself. Would you invest $100,000 without first determining the return on investment?

What law school you go to, your rank, and the type of work you select all affect your salary out of law school. So do the research BEFORE starting law school. After graduating, the most important thing is to get experience. Once you get experience in one or two specialties, start job hopping to bigger and better paying firms.
Posted by patatt - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes ago

I graduated in the top 25% from a 4T school. I picked a field of law which maximized my previous work experience, and I got some work experience in that field prior to law school. The work experience prior to law school paid very little, but I had work product to show as examples of my work and helped me in getting a clerkship which resulted in a job offer early in my final year of law school. I am making very good money.
Posted by CA - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 6 hours, 4 minutes ago

Get real. Who would incur $100,000 in debt without looking seriously at their ability to repay? The job market isn’t that bad out here. I know from experience. Just don’t expect to have a cushy job just because you have a JD. The degree is a prerequisite to practicing law, but it doesn’t guarantee a high income any more than an advanced engineering degree, an MBA, etc.
Posted by CD - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 5 hours, 54 minutes ago

I think the “best value” rankings are more important indicators than the USNWR. I went to a “third tier” school (Texas Tech) but it is also a top 10 value (based on cost, employment after graduation, and bar passage rates). I was in the top 1/2 of the class and had no trouble finding an 85k job in the area of law I wanted to practice in. Some of my friends are making well over 100k their 1st year and some of the people in the lower half of the class had to work a lot harder than me to get the 70-80k jobs. I’m personally very glad I choose not to go to a top tier school and will only have 13k in debt instead of 100k+.
Posted by looking for honesty - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 4 hours, 35 minutes ago

The main problem I have is the way law schools operate. While in law school, at a 3t school, I had a G.A. that thankfully paid for my tuition, but working there exposed me to all the deception they create. The only alumni that is brought in to speak to students are the rich ones, when other alumni want to talk to the students about HONESTLY about how hard it is to get a job that one can live off of they get shut up and never invited back. There are also too many “career opportunities offices” who do absolutely nothing for students who are not in the top 10% and then complain when the other students can’t find jobs…they are there to help us, they get paid 6 figures to help all of us, not just the ones who they think will make the best alumni and donors!! I am an adult and I made the decision to go to law school, all I’m asking for is the honesty to understand what that decision entails.
Posted by Mark, Esq. - 1 year, 2 months, 3 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes ago

I find it interesting that the ABA feels compelled to acknowledge the waning market for new lawyers only after the WSJ publishes a front-page article on the topic. Perhaps the ABA should find the courage to address the issue in an honest, proactive way, rather than simply responding to critical news articles to give the impression that it is doing its job.
Posted by Extended Warranty - 1 year, 2 months, 2 days, 21 hours, 46 minutes ago

The problem here is how smart college students are yet they’re so stupid. Too many think they will start at insanely high salaries no matter what the profession. The only profession that you will start off this high is medical. Although I see big pressures for those to come down over time. With political debate over lower healthcare costs and people going to other countries for surgeries.

Bottom line everyone. Why does any business want to pay you near the $100,000 mark? The job market is tight, and there are thousands of other people just like you with the same education who will do your job for cheaper. And I wasn’t even talking about India, who magnifies what I just said times 1000.

Don’t waste your money on racking up $100,000 in student loans. There I said it, expensive education is a waste. Go to a local college. Get some kind of job related to your field (build yourself up, get experience, make money). Get out of college with experience, a degree, and money. I’d really like to see someone prove to me that going to a really expensive school (bar extreme cases like being in the top of your harvard class) will DEFINITELY prove more useful.

Business degree major here. While the market is tight I have not limited myself to work only in one type of building. I can work anywhere. Instead of $100,000 of loans collecting interest just like my house, the loans will not exist and I will have a HUGE down payment for my house. In a few years I will be making $55,000. I win.
Posted by Thomas Sundermeier - 1 year, 2 months, 2 days, 2 hours, 35 minutes ago

This is ridiculous. Those of you who went to law school should have known what you were getting yourself into. Putting a limit on licensing lawyers? Lets limit the number of Political Science and History majors too? The average income for those majors I am sure are low as well. They worked really hard to get their degrees, they should earn at least 100k a year, and lawyers should earn at least 200k a year.

Get off your horses, and stop whining. Who the hell do you think you are?
Posted by Akron Grad - 1 year, 2 months, 2 days, 2 hours, 16 minutes ago

It’s very gratifying to read this article. Instead of whining and waiting for someone to hand me a job, I worked by tuchus off looking for a job. I also worked my tuchus off during school to make myself more valuable. I went to law school while supporting a wife, 3 kids, owning a house, paying for two cars, and being a Chassidic Jew (very time consuming) all on a $20 per hour job. I worked like a dog for two years (getting to work at 6:00 AM and getting home at night at 10:00 PM after class).

Once I decided upon a community to move to, I skipped class for 2 days and drove halfway across the country for a 1 hour meeting to network and handout resumes. From that day, I got 5 interviews. One of those interviews led to a job offer shortly thereafter.

In other words, people who know how to work are doing fine.

I guess my years of experience and my hard work through law school was worth more than living in the library to graduate in the top 20% instead of the top 35%.
Posted by Mark P - 1 year, 2 months, 1 day, 23 hours, 19 minutes ago

I have a couple of points that I have not seen discussed. First, the law school’s inaccurate reporting has an additional cause. I am a May 2007 cum laude graduate of a low 1T law school. I finally have found a decent contract job that pays about the same as what I made as a computer engineer three years ago. I am reluctant to report my job and income back to my law school because my honesty might make my school’s statistics look worse. If my school’s stats go down, its reputation could suffer, and my ability to find my next job might be impaired.

My second point relates to the clients perception of the high associate salaries. At some point, the clients are going to rebel against paying $260k (as explained in post 27) for an untrained neophyte to review documents to determine if they are privileged or other typical starting associate tasks. The clients should eventually realize that they can hire competent experienced for less than this and that many of the tasks that they overpay starting associates for can be done more cheaply elsewhere. The glut of lawyers should inevitably lead to a correction both to associate salaries and to client costs. The main barrier seems to be brand name snobbery that eventually should be overcome by loyalty to the shareholder.
Posted by Jacob - 1 year, 2 months, 1 day, 17 hours, 22 minutes ago

The job search is tough. I cannot be hard on the people that are bitter because I understand where they are coming from. I’ve been out of law school for a few months and the job search has been tough. I’ve received the countless rejection letters from all types of legal employers. Legal Aid and other so-called locks are not sure fired back up plans because they’re just as selective as anyone else.

It’s hard to be optimistic during job interviews when you’ve faced so much rejection. I just try to shake it off and move on to the next interview. I don’t wish this stress on anyone. It’s tough when you go to professional school to seek better job prospects only to learn very few barriers have been removed. It hurts when make a life decision to pursue law feeling that it interests you and you can do some good in the process but no one is willing to give you an opportunity. It’s not all about money. It’s about being given a chance to fulfill all those dreams that motivated you to apply to law school. The dream to help people, the dream to have more than a mere job and the dream to use your mind to solve complex problems. It hurts when it feels like those dreams are slipping away.

Family and friends don’t help by pressuring you about finding a job. I hope I pass the bar and that doors open up after those results. I have absolutely no sense of entitlement. I did my homework before attending law school but some things you just cannot anticipate. I don’t think many people truly understand how difficult it is to find that first job. There is much more information on the web now than a few years ago that gives a more realistic picture than the law school employment statisitics presented to students from all types of sources from the actual schools, ABA and US News. It’s tough. I hope the determination pays off at some point.
Posted by david friedlander - 1 year, 2 months, 1 day, 15 hours, 25 minutes ago

Post 100 hits the nail on the head. If the ABA is publishing this article and verifying/not-contradicting the substance than the why has this issue not been tackled before hand? Does the ABA care more about young grads with 6 grand debt ( which as we can see is in part due to the lure of blatantly wrong enron-style employment statistics) or about creating obstacles and filtering mechanisms
Posted by NLD - 1 year, 2 months, 1 day, 1 hour, 40 minutes ago

This issue clearly evokes strong thoughts, opinions, concerns and praise for the institution of legal education. All have merit. And as we all hopefully learned in law school, issues rarely fall neatly and squarely into “black” or “white” answers.

I entered law school when I was in my fifties. Was this a wise decision? Probably not. Was it a realistic and practical decision? Probably not. Age alone should have caused me great pause.

Nonetheless, would I have made the same decision irrespective of the bleak employment prospects and a student debt that will follow me to my grave? Yes!

As noted by another commentator, law school was and remains the most exciting and most intellectually stimulating experience of my life.

This is not to say law school reform is not in order. It is. The price tag is horrendous, which in turn, plays a key role in the placing legal services out of reach for even middle class families who cannot afford the obscene hourly fees charged by attorneys – charged in part to recoup and repay the equally obscene cost of a legal education.

The other half of the equation is prospective students’ duty to thoroughly research and analyze his or her decision before going to law school. True, law schools engage in misleading practices. They need to cease manipulating data regarding employment statistics and be honest and forthright in admission interviews and their prospective student publications.

After all, many states have home-seller disclosure laws so buyers can make informed decisions regarding one of the biggest purchases of their life – buying a home. Today, legal education also is a huge-dollar purchase and deserves no less than full disclosure from the sellers – law schools.

Prospective student self-examination must be equally candid. Why do you want to go to law school? To avoid the “real world” for another three years? To make a fast fortune, drive a Mercedes, shop at the finest clothiers, and dine at five-star restaurants?

Even with law school reform, the self-duty to research, and candid self examination, obtaining a Juris Doctor will continue to yield mixed results. For some, it will open a door to a rewarding legal career. For some, it will lead to an exciting non-legal career. For some, it will prove to be a disappointment that did not fulfill their expectations.

My expectations were not realistic. I accept that. My decision to go to law school at this stage in life was not a very practical decision. I accept that. My decision may never lead to a career in the legal profession. I accept that as well. Still, it was MY decision. And despite its need for reform, and despite 18 months since graduation and no success in securing legal employment, law school was indeed my best life experience.
Posted by Tom - 1 year, 2 months, 1 day, 1 hour, 12 minutes ago

If you really want to make it to the promised land and you don’t fall into the top 1/2 of 1 percent with the best grades from the best schools going to the best firms right out of school, become proficient in an up and coming foreign language (typically a 3rd world language), move abroad and work at a highly respected firm with an international practice in a country where that language is spoken, be treated very well because your native language is English, make money, have low living expenses, and situate yourself to get recruited by one of the big boys after you’ve made a name for yourself. That big firm will move you back to the U.S. (or another one of their offices) and you will have gotten where you wanted to be. I say all of this from firsthand experience. We are a global economy. If your desired practice area lends itself to deals/transactions in foreign languages, take the plunge as I suggested and you might just make it.
Posted by Lolita McLean - 1 year, 2 months, 23 hours, 51 minutes ago

I too am a non working attorney unable to find a job with a law firm or state agency for over a year. So, I am keeping my current 61K job supervising a state district office working with children with special healthcare needs. Maybe, just maybe, I will be blessed with a job in the legal field which could help to pay off my 50K loan. I am putting myself out there and hopefully a good paying job will come up. If not, I will continue to work hard at my present job which should put me at 100K in 6-8 years.
Posted by Andrew Sonpon - 1 year, 2 months, 1 hour, 1 minute ago

Something interesting to read while you have nothing to read.
Posted by David - 1 year, 2 months, 24 minutes ago

It’s like any job market. It’s ridiculous to think you can make 100,000 right out of school, most with no real world experience. Get your experience and it will pay off after 5 - 10 years like every other job. Don’t expect to buy a JAG at 27 years old. Be practical.
Posted by Bill H. - 1 year, 1 month, 4 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 37 minutes ago

I left law school just yesterday, based in no small part on the rantings of disgruntled lawyers everywhere, jdunderground, and the WSJ article.

I couldn’t be happier. I hope that more follow in my footsteps. That is the only way the ABA will EVER get the message.
Posted by nonpracticingattorney - 1 year, 1 month, 3 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 20 minutes ago

Long story short, my husband and I were also misled by the salaries and promises of employment told to us by our school. We are now over $200K in debt between us and have left the legal profession for other careers. We are simply following the money in order to pay back our massive debt. We are both licensed attorneys (both passed the bar first time around) and would both like to work in the legal field, but it is simply financially irresponsible for us to do so with a mortgage and a small child. My husband and I both graduated from a private third tier law school in Iowa, and frankly we would like our money back. It took my husband seven months to find a job after graduation and he was offered a position at $43K (after rejecting an offer to work for $22K). I myself was unemployed for nine months until I took a temporary position in a purchasing department.

I deeply regret going to law school and would never have gone to my school if I would have known how miserable life would be with such a massive debt. It is probably true that I did not have the foresight before I chose my path; however, based on the information I received from my school I truly believed the debt would not be a huge issue due to the high salaries and good opportunities that would await me.

For all of you out there who are being insulting to those of us who made these choices – it is easy to throw mud. But believe me – we are all “paying for it” under our crushing debt. I agree with the advice given in other posts. Unless you can get into a top law school or a reputable public law school do not waste your time in the second and third tier (or lower) private law schools. You will waste a great deal of your time and money. They are simply there for profit, not for your best interests or even a good education.
Posted by ariel T - 1 year, 1 month, 3 weeks, 5 days, 14 hours, 1 minute ago

I have a doctoral grad degree and am going to a 3rd tier night school law school. The reason is that the J.D. is a way to advance in business, government, public sector. When you get that J.D., you are a new person that can fit into administration, policy making. So, yeah, it sucks to work so hard. However, the knowledge and prestige outweigh the money cost in the long run.
Posted by Asher - 1 year, 1 month, 3 weeks, 5 days, 45 minutes ago

Its simple: Do your research BEFORE you go to law school. Our school was very open that the AVERAGE salary of first year grads was about $42,000. Tuition alone was $75,000
It is a choice you make. law students are not Victims, as one poster above put it. Many merely believe the lies they tell themselves.
If statistics show that the high paying jobs go to the top %5 of law students, that means there are 95% NOT in the top.
Anyone who goes into law for the money is an idiot.
And why should the ABA “acknowedge” it.
Any new law student can open up their own firm, charge reasonable rates, and market to get clients. They now have a job.
Posted by Sean - 1 year, 1 month, 3 weeks, 4 days, 7 hours, 52 minutes ago

The job market is horrible. I have been on 21 interviews through Fall OCI and not one call back. It is very depressing knowing I spent so much money for absolutely nothing. I am in the top 10% of my class and can’t find anything.

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