Legal Careers Lose Their Allure, Drop to Dentistry Status

Careers

Legal Careers Lose Their Allure, Drop to Dentistry Status

Posted Jan 7, 2008, 05:52 am CST

By Debra Cassens Weiss

College grads who want wealth and social status are passing up law and medicine for careers in investment banking.

A career at a hedge fund or private equity firm can offer financial rewards that outpace earnings at even the biggest law firms. Partners at the nation’s largest 100 firms made an average of $1.2 million in 2006, but many senior investment bankers will take home an average of $2.25 million to $2.75 million in bonuses and salaries, the New York Times reports.

But even more important than money are the glamour, control and quick path to financial rewards in investment banking, according to the article.

Lawyers no longer enjoy the prestige they once held, and the quest for billable hours has taken away the notion of law as a noble profession. Doctors and lawyers “have slipped a notch in social status, drifting toward the safe-and-staid realm of dentists and accountants,” the story reports.

The change is reflected in the number of students applying to law schools. The number of applicants dropped 5.2 percent in 2005 from the year before, and another 6.7 percent in 2006, when 83,500 applied to law schools.

Richard Florida, who wrote the book The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It’s Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life, says young people consider creativity and flexibility to be hallmarks of a prestigious career. Careers in law and medicine have “lost their allure, their status. And it isn’t about money,” he told the Times.

Temple sociology professor Kevin Delaney told the newspaper that executives who work for hedge funds and private equity firms can make or lose a million dollars based on the trades they make. They “love the idea of being responsible for their own fate.”

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Posted by Anonymous - 10 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes ago

Thank you L2L!
Posted by Cynic - 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 19 hours, 31 minutes ago

Prestige is in the eyes of the beholder - and at the end of the day isn’t warm a tteaspoon full of cold spit anyway. Again, we deal with the disappointments of a very small percentage of all those who get professional degrees. These problems of “fulfillment” are not experienced by the majority who don’t have the privileged backgrounds, didn’t go to the handful of prestigious schools, etc. At the end of the day who gives a rat’s behind whether they are fulfilled or not? ALL of these lines of endeavour have been oversold. The best thing that could happen to society would be a big enough economic collapse so that they’s have to get REAL jobs.
Posted by Anonymous - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Cynic, at no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul..
Posted by Anonymous too - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 52 minutes ago

It is unfortunate that the profession has lost some of its prestige. Hopefully, that will cause the number of applications to continue to drop. After that, maybe only the college grads who want to become lawyers because they want to bring more justice to the world and make a difference in the lives of others, will apply. Once that happens, the legal profession will gain its prestige again. We have too many lawyers for not enough good jobs and too many people apply to law school for the wrong reasons.
Posted by mike hunt - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 52 minutes ago

Pfoooey on this! I am a lawyer, and have quite enough status and lots of good looking women are impressed with me, and have been so ever since I was a law student (and not from a top school either). So not even a dentist can match my “drilling” record. Thank you, Prosser on Torts!
Posted by Albert J. Pucciarelli - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 5 minutes ago

That the legal profession is losing prestige is no wonder; the pressure of billable hours, lawyer arrogance (see Comment #5 above), a court system that grinds even the most worthy plaintiff into early surrender and a sense of entitlement just because you went to law school for three years are some of the factors that I see that are detracting from what should still be a learned and noble endeavor. Law has been and still is (for me) a great career choice, but the perception of the profession on the part of our ‘customers’ and young lawyers is very troubling.
Posted by Fernando Rivero - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 1 minute ago

What a disturbing little article. If people who are interested in making millions want to bypass law school in favor of investment banking, then I say godspeed. This is a glaring reminder that our focus should be on law as a profession. All the talk about loss of prestige is not terribly impressive, coming as it does from a handful of select and unrepresentative sources.
Posted by Corneilus - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 36 minutes ago

What do we, as lawyers, expect when law school admission standards are lowered to the point where anyone with a pulse gets into law school?
Posted by Richard Douglas - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 34 minutes ago

Over a career of thirty years, law gave me all the prestige it ever promised. I often heard the “Oh” when I mentioned I was a lawyer, and earned the prestige one-on-one when I was able to solve the problems believed to be insoluable by the client. The rigorous education, the ability to withstand incredibly stressful confrontations such as trials, to take over the client’s problems, the ability to lead as a lawyer or as a statesman, these add to the prestige that are properly due the legal profession.
Posted by Anonymous - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 20 minutes ago

To #5 ..... exactly what is it that makes you so impressive to members of the opposite sex? Your internet based law degree? The speed at which you chase your ambulances?
Posted by H.V.Baxendale - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 17 minutes ago

Amen, Mr. Douglas. Prestige is earned individually. The public is learning that “lawyer” doesn’t describe what one does any more than “in business.“ Publicity and mere notoriety is not prestige, just look at Britney Hilton.
Posted by HV Baxedale - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 16 minutes ago

Oops—“...are not prestige….“
Posted by Joe - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 12 minutes ago

Hmmm…yeah, I’m sure ibankers are VERY vital to society. First thing you do when you want to take over a country: suspend laws and suppress lawyers. Case in point: Pakistan! We could kill all the damn ibankers in the world and society wouldn’t crumble. NOT true for lawyers.
Posted by Anonymous - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes ago

I read a statistic once that around 2001 / 2002, Law school admissions were the highest ever, the reason given was that the economy was in a slump and most grad. school admissions were up. I think the assumption the article makes that law school admissions are down because, and only because, the profession is less prestigious is just that, an assumption unsupported by any analysis
Posted by mrbb008 - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 6 minutes ago

Good. Less law school students = more jobs for the current lawyers. Let all those mice at Investment Banking squeek the wheel and get their millions. Lawyers work schedule is an 8-5 job compared to the insane hours investment bankers work (generally).
Posted by Anonymous - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes ago

Through twenty years of practice and interviewing law students for positions as summer associates, I’ve noticed two factors driving the ebb and flow in the percentage of college graduates applying to law schools. The first is the economy. Young people perceive, correctly, that while lawyers’ compensation is rarely spectacular it is generally generous and stable. As a result, law school applications tend to rise in periods when the economy is not roaring and tend to decline when it is. Just as the application rate rose on the popping of the dot com bubble in 2001 and on the real estate recession of the early 90s, it will probably do so again when the economy next slips into recession. More than a few young former securitization bankers will be filling seats in law schools in the next two years.

The second factor is popular culture. While network television’s influence has probably waned, programs like “LA Law” have, I suspect, done much in the past to increase application rates by glamourizing the practice of law. That phenomenon will continue, perhaps through mediums other than television.

The practice of law is not like the practice of dentistry. The conversations in the later are always one way.
Posted by Anonymous three - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes ago

We’re assuming here that just because some ABA journalist wrote this that it has some basis in reality or that it is actually an identifyable trend. Even if so, it’s ceratinly not news this week. I’ve heard all of this before. So have you.
Posted by BDT - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 55 minutes ago

I’ve been practicing law for 12 years. It has been a business and not a profession from day one. Some of the commenters here believe that young lawyers are the reason for this. Incorrect. The Baby Boomers now dominate the “profession” . They set the billable hours requirements for young lawyers. It is the Boomers that have made law a business.

To those of you without a sense of humor - Comment #5 is hilarious. Lighten up.
Posted by Happy to be a Lawyer - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 43 minutes ago

Amen, Messrs. Douglas, Rivero and Baxendale;) and to Joe. If the people who were choosing law school for the “money and prestige” are weeded out, then we will be left with folks who become lawyers for the right reasons. Despite all the negative press and lawyer jokes, my personal experience is that the vast majority of lawyers are professional, caring, and even a little idealistic. Most of us are plenty smart enough to have chosen another career just as lucrative or moreso, but we wanted to make a life as well as a living, as the saying goes. Law is a “helping” profession and good lawyers are absolutely vital to a free and civil society. Something to be proud of, and I hope we never forget it.
Posted by anonymous three - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes ago

“And it isn’t about money,” he told the Times”

Yeah, that’s right.

It’s not clear to me what’s new here. There have always been much easier paths to wealth than law or med school. Especially the latter - someone who’s going to med school solely to become rich is too stupid to be a doctor. At least you can finish a law degree and get into practice in a reasonable amount of time, though that’s going to be a grind for several years too. Still, the vast majority of really wealthy people I know got there with a bachelors degree.

And what’s with the defensiveness in the comments? A journalist saying your profession has lost prestige is like a hooker sayiing she won’t respect you in the morning.
Posted by Anonymous four - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 33 minutes ago

As anonymous three comment 17 was evidently posting as I wrote, please change the “posted by” name on comment 20 to “anonymous four”.
Posted by TallDave - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes ago

This is a good thing. Law should be about truth and justice, not getting rich.

Let the people who want to be rich get that way in the capital markets rather than by manipulating the power of the State for profit.

A good lawyer (not to confused with an effective but unscrupulous lawyer) will always have prestige and the respect of society.
Posted by New Lawer - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 58 minutes ago

This is a lot of ridiculousness. A career is what YOU make it. If you’re a sleezy person, you will become a sleezey lawyer/doctor/dentist/investment banker/waste management specialist, ect. If you are a person of integrity, that too will be reflected in your chosen profession. I’m new to the legal profession, but anytime someone finds out I’m a lawyer the response is that of respect, followed by ...... “well you see I have this problem ...... “ No matter what people think of us lawyers, the truth comes out in the end that we are problem solvers that people need. I’ll take defending the weak, setting up an adoption, going after a dead beat dad, helping someone plan for their future, etc over hedge funds any day of the week. People will always need us, long after the fads of other careers pass away.
Posted by Swede - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 56 minutes ago

“We could kill all the damn ibankers in the world and society wouldn’t crumble. NOT true for lawyers.“

So, you’re saying Shakespeare was wrong? Hmmm, there’s a reason why the Bard has been around for so long.
Posted by An attorney for 20 years - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 54 minutes ago

I encourage you to read Parker Palmer’s article, “A New Professional: The Aims of Education,“ published in Change Magazine. It’s relevant to this discussion. Copy and paste this cite into your web browser:

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/change/sub.asp?key=98&subkey=2455
Posted by George O'Leary - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 52 minutes ago

To the person who started their comment by stating, “Less law students = more jobs for current lawyers” and then goes on to say that the legal profession is (generally) and 8 to 5 job. What planet are you from? In virtually all professions, to be successful and 8 to 5 option doesn not exist. I don’t know if you practice law or not by my dad is a Sr. partner at a huge law firm and he nor anyone else he works with work an 8 to 5. Maybe some do but that is beacuase they worked 80+ hour weeks earlier in their careers. Think before you speak.
Posted by inmypajamas - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes ago

The decrease in prestige for MDs is not surprising because the amount of money and time spent in school is not offset for several years of active practice and they rarely have a nice, pat 9-5 schedule. Insurance reimbursement is declining steadily which requires MDs to cram in more patients to keep a steady salary (they have families and bills to pay, too). Many MDs are joining large groups to share cost and hospital coverage because solo or small practice is just not profitable. I can see why the the profession has lost its luster. You can still make a better than average salary, certainly, but I am sure college students are doing the calculation of future salary vs. amount of time invested in education and future work and concluding that the MD route is just not that exciting - too close to middle-class working stiff.
Posted by BDT - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 50 minutes ago

Swede - You take the Shakespeare quote out of context. The context is, if you want society to collapse…then kill all the lawyers.
Posted by Abraham Lincoln - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 49 minutes ago

Abraham Lincoln’s Notes for a Law Lecture
This document fragment was dated July 1, 1850 by Abraham Lincoln’s White House secretaries, John Nicolay and John Hay, who collected many of his manuscripts after his death. The note in the Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln indicates that Lincoln could have written these observations several years later than 1850. It is not known, however, if Lincoln ever delivered this lecture.
In these notes Lincoln provides a glimpse of how he worked and the high standards of diligence and honesty he set. He has sharp words for the dishonest and unscrupulous members of the bar, calling them “fiends” and “knaves.“ He warns prospective lawyers, “if in your own judgment you cannot be an honest lawyer, resolve to be honest without being a lawyer.“

I am not an accomplished lawyer. I find quite as much material for a lecture in those points wherein I have failed, as in those wherein I have been moderately successful. The leading rule for the lawyer, as for the man of every other calling, is diligence. Leave nothing for to-morrow which can be done to-day. Never let your correspondence fall behind. Whatever piece of business you have in hand, before stopping, do all the labor pertaining to it which can then be done. When you bring a common-law suit, if you have the facts for doing so, write the declaration at once. If a law point be involved, examine the books, and note the authority you rely on upon the declaration itself, where you are sure to find it when wanted. The same of defenses and pleas. In business not likely to be litigated,—ordinary collection cases, foreclosures, partitions, and the like,—make all examinations of titles, and note them, and even draft orders and decrees in advance. This course has a triple advantage; it avoids omissions and neglect, saves your labor when once done, performs the labor out of court when you have leisure, rather than in court when you have not. Extemporaneous speaking should be practised and cultivated. It is the lawyer’s avenue to the public. However able and faithful he may be in other respects, people are slow to bring him business if he cannot make a speech. And yet there is not a more fatal error to young lawyers than relying too much on speech-making. If any one, upon his rare powers of speaking, shall claim an exemption from the drudgery of the law, his case is a failure in advance.

Discourage litigation. Persuade your neighbors to compromise whenever you can. Point out to them how the nominal winner is often a real loser—in fees, expenses, and waste of time. As a peacemaker the lawyer has a superior opportunity of being a good man. There will still be business enough.

Never stir up litigation. A worse man can scarcely be found than one who does this. Who can be more nearly a fiend than he who habitually overhauls the register of deeds in search of defects in titles, whereon to stir up strife, and put money in his pocket? A moral tone ought to be infused into the profession which should drive such men out of it.

The matter of fees is important, far beyond the mere question of bread and butter involved. Properly attended to, fuller justice is done to both lawyer and client. An exorbitant fee should never be claimed. As a general rule never take your whole fee in advance, nor any more than a small retainer. When fully paid beforehand, you are more than a common mortal if you can feel the same interest in the case, as if something was still in prospect for you, as well as for your client. And when you lack interest in the case the job will very likely lack skill and diligence in the performance. Settle the amount of fee and take a note in advance. Then you will feel that you are working for something, and you are sure to do your work faithfully and well. Never sell a fee note—at least not before the consideration service is performed. It leads to negligence and dishonesty—negligence by losing interest in the case, and dishonesty in refusing to refund when you have allowed the consideration to fail.

There is a vague popular belief that lawyers are necessarily dishonest. I say vague, because when we consider to what extent confidence and honors are reposed in and conferred upon lawyers by the people, it appears improbable that their impression of dishonesty is very distinct and vivid. Yet the impression is common, almost universal. Let no young man choosing the law for a calling for a moment yield to the popular belief—resolve to be honest at all events; and if in your own judgment you cannot be an honest lawyer, resolve to be honest without being a lawyer. Choose some other occupation, rather than one in the choosing of which you do, in advance, consent to be a knave.
Posted by Abraham Lincoln - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 49 minutes ago

Lincoln’s Advice to Lawyers
Before Abraham Lincoln was elected President, he practiced law for nearly 25 years in Illinois. Occasionally his writings reveal advice he offered lawyers or aspiring lawyers. In this selection of quotations you will notice his emphasis on self-education, the method he used to enter the profession. At the time, studying with an established lawyer was far more common than attending law school. Lincoln could not afford law school, and in his autobiography of 1860 he wrote that he “studied with nobody.“

Letter to Isham Reavis on November 5, 1855
My dear Sir:
I have just reached home, and found your letter of the 23rd. ult. I am from home too much of my time, for a young man to read law with me advantageously. If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already. It is but a small matter whether you read with any body or not. I did not read with any one. Get the books, and read and study them till, you understand them in their principal features; and that is the main thing. It is of no consequence to be in a large town while you are reading. I read at New-Salem, which never had three hundred people living in it. The books, and your capacity for understanding them, are just the same in all places. Mr. Dummer is a very clever man and an excellent lawyer (much better than I, in law-learning); and I have no doubt he will cheerfully tell you what books to read, and also loan you the books.

Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed, is more important than any other one thing. Very truly Your friend
A. Lincoln

Letter to William H. Grigsby on August 3, 1858
My dear Sir:
Yours of the 14th. of July, desiring a situation in my law office, was received several days ago. My partner, Mr. Herndon, controls our office in this respect, and I have known of his declining at least a dozen applications like yours within the last three months.

If you wish to be a lawyer, attach no consequence to the place you are in, or the person you are with; but get books, sit down anywhere, and go to reading for yourself. That will make a lawyer of you quicker than any other way. Yours Respectfully,
A. Lincoln

Letter to James T. Thornton on December 2, 1858
Dear Sir
Yours of the 29th, written in behalf of Mr. John W. Widmer, is received. I am absent altogether too much to be a suitable instructor for a law student. When a man has reached the age that Mr. Widner has, and has already been doing for himself, my judgment is, that he reads the books for himself without an instructor. That is precisely the way I came to the law. Let Mr. Widner read Blackstone’s Commentaries, Chitty’s Pleadings’s—Greenleaf’s Evidence, Story’s Equity, and Story’s Equity Pleading’s, get a license, and go to the practice, and still keep reading. That is my judgment of the cheapest, quickest, and best way for Mr. Widner to make a lawyer of himself. Yours truly
A. Lincoln

NOTE: Lincoln sometimes misspelled Widmer’s name in the above letter.

Letter to John M. Brockman on September 25, 1860
J. M. Brockman, Esq.
Dear Sir: Yours of the 24th. asking “the best mode of obtaining a thorough knowledge of the law” is received. The mode is very simple, though laborious, and tedious. It is only to get the books, and read, and study them carefully. Begin with Blackstone’s Commentaries, and after reading it carefully through, say twice, take up Chitty’s Pleadings, Greenleaf’s Evidence, & Story’s Equity &c. in succession. Work, work, work, is the main thing. Yours very truly
A. Lincoln
Posted by Atty Elizabeth - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 44 minutes ago

Why do they assume that a drop in law school applications means an increase in investment banking? There were other economic factors in play that led to a HUGE jump in law school applications in the mid-90s. It would only make sense that applications would decline and get back to more “normal” pre-event levels.
Posted by StillEatingTopRamen - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 41 minutes ago

What I appreciated about the original Times article was the discussion about overall dissatisfaction within the profession. However, just like the ABA, the article was disappointing because in discussion of earnings it focused on the professions’ top earners (Big Law) and glossed over “Law for The Rest of Us.“ It’s not greed or desire for prestige that takes the wind out of associates’ sails so much as struggle to pay stifling student loan debt on that 60K average starting salary. For me as a single mother, it’s not greed, it’s survival.
Posted by Swede - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes ago

Yes, I’m aware of the context. And I’m also aware that many people quote it out of context. You should probably be asking yourself why people would want to do that and why people feel that it’s worth quoting out of context.
Posted by Bill - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 32 minutes ago

YEAH!!!!
Thankyou U.S. Chamber of Commerce—tort reformers—Talk radio hosts—angry divorce litigants—and large concentrations of wealth everywhere. When Law Schools began to open like Mickey D’s and NO ONE ever flunked out I saw the population climb. Now maybe we can get to a number where we can make a living and maybe just maybe win back some respect.
Posted by Swede - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 30 minutes ago

Also, while many law websites like to use this quote as showing people don’t really understand what they’re saying, another, equally valid interpretation of said quote is that the character is suggesting this is the first thing that must be done in order to establish a utopia, or maybe even a heaven on earth.

Discuss amongst yourselves.
Posted by Bill - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 20 minutes ago

I need a nap.
Posted by WaveRhydr - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 13 minutes ago

Reading the posts makes me once again convinced that The ABA has to be one of the most worthless professional organizations known to man.

I don’t know of many professions that encourage everyone and their dog to submit posts bashing members of that profession. I want to know where the hell the ABA has been when it comes to standing up for our Constitutional rights, and condemning the actions of government/executive branch lawyers who violate same.

Lawyers making money is not the reason for a low public perception of lawyers. Lawyers like Scooter Libby, and Alberto Gonzales violating or flaunting the laws with abandon is. It also does not help that many in the legal community have been silent on such things during the years since 9/11.

As re post #5, I am not too busted up that a lawyer has managed to enjoy his life and life’s work. From the tone of some of the other posts I would suggest others might want to consider doing the same.
Posted by joe mama - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 5 minutes ago

#4 and #16 are dead on. #30, do some work, my God that’s a long posting.

Some of you need to get a sense of humor and a personality, #5 was joking.
Posted by RollingMyEyes - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 3 minutes ago

Twenty years ago, wall street traders were a hot job. Ten years ago software engineers were the hot job. I-bankers are hot now. Who knows what will be hot in 10 more years.

Lawyers are too established to be hot, flashy and more importantly, TRENDY.

Law may never be #1, but it will always be near the top, while the rest rise and fall.
Posted by Abraham Lincoln - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 2 minutes ago

The attorney in #5 would like to meet the referred to hooker in #20.
Posted by svleer - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes ago

ALERT—Rant following:

“And it isn’t about money” ???—when the leader of the article compares lawyer salaries with investment banker salaries? And just what exactly does a person NEED that they can buy with $2.25 million and they can’t buy with $1.2 million? Give me a break!

I’m a line attorney in state government, am well-respected by my colleagues and friends in and out of the government practice, get paid enough money to be very comfortable, and I have a rich and vibrant life outside the law. I guess I should feel dissatisfied with my lot and whine about not making 7 figures in some factory firm. Respect and a balanced life (not money) are why I recommend government service to young lawyers who haven’t been hired and are trying to figure out what to do with their law degrees, other than flip burgers at the local fast food joint.
Posted by JC - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 39 minutes ago

This isn’t really anything new. I heard the same advice at the beginning of law school some twenty years ago.

I can remember my property professor giving a little talk about the law and money. His main points were about practicing law as a learned profession and using our skills to do something useful for society, rather than just trying to make money.

Along the way, he made the point that most lawyers don’t become rich practicing law—they generally make a comfortable living, but since they mostly get paid only for what they themselves do, the financial upside of practicing law is usually fairly limited. His advice was if you wanted to get rich, use your law degree to go into banking, business, or real estate where something other than the time you devote to something can make you money.

According to him—and I think it was pretty true then and now—the only lawyers likely to become “big rich” practicing law were a few lucky and talented contingency fee lawyers.

Anyway, his point was that lawyers should be satisfied with making a comfortable living and being useful to society by helping people successfully navigate the legal system, and should judge themselves by how well they are upholding the ideals of an honorable profession rather than how much money they make.

I thought this was good advice then and I still think it’s good advice.
Posted by lalawoptimist - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 21 minutes ago

Why are there so MANY negative articles on this site regarding the legal profession? Whenever I log onto the site there are articles griping about pay, prestige, or lack thereof. What about being proud of the profession? Why aren’t there headlining stories about HOW MUCH money lawyers are making - because the truth is they can make pretty good money. Be proud fellow colleagues. stop the griping already. geez.
Posted by Dave_Violence - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 15 minutes ago

You think this is bad? How do you think engineers feel…? Prestige can only be granted by other members of a particular profession - and the general public has no idea what makes a great professional. Lawyer aren’t called “ambulance chasers” out of esteem for the profession… Lawyers make GREAT money. A starting salary of $150k (2007 class) is damned good. Especially for some 25-year old punk… Engineers aren’t even trusted to take the PE exam until they’re 26! And passing that doesn’t mean anything as the principals of the engineering firms are the ones making in the $150k range… Doctors? Who wants to spend all those years in school when you could take the investment banker job at age 22 (or even without a college degree!)???
Posted by Anonymous Four - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 5 minutes ago

“Some of you need to get a sense of humor and a personality, #5 was joking”

Maybe so. Nevertheless, people who think being in a profession percieved to generate high incomes isn’t a chick magnet is dead wrong.
Posted by HitNRun - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours ago

I’m no lawyer or investment banker, but it seems to me rather obvious that this “trend” (if that’s even what it is) can’t possibly withstand the next major economic downshift. It’s all well and good to talk about “creativity and flexibility” being the “hallmark” of the “young generation,“ but that’s all predicated on most of these people being able to make money at it. The software engineers mentioned by #39, for example, would probably have been glad to have the skills of “a dentist or an accountant” back in 2000, and most of them certainly haven’t risen back to anything resembling prestige since then.

By the way, “the first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers” from HVI is not a defense of lawyers, but it is wonderfully ironic that it is twisted to read as such by, well, lawyers.
Posted by Amused - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 51 minutes ago

Everybody’s stuck on #5’s comments, but the funniest one was the obscure reference to Billy Madison in #3—duly noted and appreciated.
Posted by Abraham Lincoln - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes ago

Anyone else think there must be at least 47 dentists that care to comment on this article?
Posted by R - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 26 minutes ago

I was thinking of going into dentistry but I didn’t want the two most-used phrases in my professional life to be “open wide” and “spit.“
Posted by Matt - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 17 hours, 28 minutes ago

As an engineer AND a lawyer, I can tell you that the prestige associated with lawyers far exceeds that granted to engineers, even though the latter arguably do more for society. While I do not place much stock in the ABA’s journalistic reports, I will say that my recent experience with college students shows that many of them are like their parents - they want wealth and opportunities, and with the least amount of “boring” or “hard” schooling. Well, engineering, especially fields such as electrical, computer, and chemical/biomed, involve massive amount of work, laborious classes, and a social stigma that has never attached to majors such as pre-med, “pre-law”, and business. Yet, if you look at careers that bring the most to society, engineering ranks incredibly high because society is only becoming more technologically-advanced, not less. Of course, people still see engineers as dorks and “dispensible”, and as a result most pull in salaries dawrfed by first-year associates. So before people on this site start bemoaning their “fall from social grace”, understand that there are segments of the population with similar (or superior) skills and education that would love to be in your social and financial stratosphere.
Posted by Jose Kanusey - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 17 hours, 26 minutes ago

The Bard, Lincoln? Waaay to serious. People are upset at #5, like its real. Look at the Nomme de Plume, people, and say it three times fast—- maybe you’ll figure it out. #38 too. So many of you need to wake up, get a life out of a book and laugh a bit. We are in a cool profession, so enjoy it—- I don’t care what “they” say. What we do does matter. And if what “you” do doesn’t, you’re not working smartly. Yes, it can be a magnet for shallow women, or a turn off for shallow men. So what. Billy Madison was right on, but I’ll run with Bobby Bouchet any day.
Posted by Radarcat - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes ago

Anonymous: with respect to comment 20: I think I’m in love…thank you so much-I went to med school in mid life from a need of vocation and next July, I’m starting a fellowship in addiction psychiatry. Most of my resident colleagues think I’m crazy because I could make far more in clinical practice…..
Posted by Abraham Lincoln - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 15 hours, 15 minutes ago

In closing, many of your posts are about as coherent as the Roger Clemens / Brian McNamee tape ..... “What do you want me to do?“ .... “I .. I don’t ... Just tell ... Mac, the truth .... it hurts you know?“ .... blah, blah, blah.

.... and to all a good night.
Posted by gface - 10 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 10 minutes ago

to all of you. the problem lies with the law schools, selling future students a bill of goods on their websites to induce them to apply. all of us poor slobs quickly find out that their ads are misleading as we wander into the dungeons of document review. why don’t we close some of the law schools. they are only there to make money off of unsuspecting folks. let’s put blame in its proper place. we are all the victims of greedy Americans, which describes investment bankers.
Posted by Chauntel Bland - 10 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 10 hours, 9 minutes ago

What a said article! Not because the growth in lawyer salaries are not keeping pace with those in investment banking. Nor because law school applications are on the decline. This article exposes are cankered values as a society. This is a self-centered society which measures greatness by salary or material possessions.

However, I believe greatness is measured by your willingness to serve society. If this is not your motivation for entering the legal profession, then perhaps you shouldn’t enter law school. Perhaps you should go into investment banking if your only reason for living is to collect a big paycheck.

Perhaps the fact that people are entering professions other than law due to the perception of more lucrative opportunties elsewhere could be a blessing in disguise for the legal profession. As another commenter stated, this trend will filter out the dishonest, integrity-challenged lawyers who currently mar our profession and lead to an increase in lawyers who actually believe in the concept of honesty, integrity, and selfless service.
Posted by Chauntel Bland - 10 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 10 hours, 8 minutes ago

Excuse my folks for my scrivener’s error in comment 54! The word in the first sentence should be “sad” not “said.“
Posted by harry - 10 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 9 hours, 38 minutes ago

As if all investment bankers are “guaranteed” to make millions…give me a break, nothing comes easy…what about the bankers who lose it all?
Posted by Thisson - 10 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes ago

Times are tough for everyone. For young lawyers, $150k/year is actually barely enough to get by, at least in NYC. Do you know what it costs to live here? Investment bankers don’t have it much better. The junior ones make a bit more than lawyers, but they have even longer hours and even less job security.

Take a look around you - where do bigfirm lawyers end up after 6-7 years? Not earning big bucks. The same is true of most bankers. You make good money to start, and then you get weeded out and end up doing mortgage banking (oops, I guess not anymore), insurance sales, or as a stock broker (oops, wealth advisor).

The truth it that our economy for the most part doesn’t MAKE anything - the business of America is in allocating the resources of the world to their most productive use, and then taking a cut of the production.

Nobody has it easy in todays world where people borrow as much money as they can and bid up the price of everything figuring they’ll find a way to pay for it later (or die before the check comes due!).

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