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1. Posted by doc - 2 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 41 minutes ago

   Should have gone to medical school.

2. Posted by Mark - 2 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes ago

   Thanks, ABA. Your foresight and hard work are greatly appreciated by all recent law grads.  We’re very happy, for instance, that you’ve:

   * Helped increase the costs of legal education;
   * Failed to require schools to provide a realistic view of the job market for potential students;
   * Not warned the ignorant about the importance of the rankings when selecting schools;
   * Actively approved numerous unnecessary schools;
   * Ignored efforts at requiring adequate practical education;
   * Pushed “diversity” at the cost of those who are rejected and those you claim to help; and
   * Approved the outsourcing of lower-end, entry-level work to unlicensed foreigners.

   I’m looking forward to see what you do with changes to the conflicts rules and other fun topics in the years to come.

3. Posted by Andre - 2 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes ago

   I have a paralegal certificate, and after reading this article I’m glad I didn’t go to law school.

4. Posted by Ellen Barshevsky - 2 months, 2 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 29 minutes ago

   YES, I will admit things look BAD, but my dad did NOT originelly want me to go to LAW school.  He said that I was to outspoken, and that was NOT good.

   But Dr. Serle, my advisor said No, you must do what you are good at.  And I agreed to apply to law school, and my Dad helped me out.

   Thank you Dr. Serle, I hope you know I am suceeding as an attorney and member of the Bar.  There should be hope for all the young ones watching lawyers on TV, like I did when I learned ALL about law in high school watching LA law.

   THAT is why I became a lawyer and that is why young people today should follow MY e xample, even if their is a CREDIT CRISIS.  We will get baled out and things will be good soon, says my boyfriend, and I agree.

5. Posted by Casey - 2 months, 2 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 33 minutes ago

   Perhaps if law schools were more selective in their admissions process I would not be reading a comment posted by an attorney with multiple spelling and grammatical errors…..just a thought.

6. Posted by Louise - 2 months, 2 weeks, 18 hours, 22 minutes ago

   I agree with Casey, Ellen’s comment is extremely embarrassing.  Just think, she is the one who is succeeding as an attorney with so many other new graduates (that are probably amazing legal writers) struggling.

7. Posted by Pierre - 2 months, 2 weeks, 17 hours, 3 minutes ago

   Seeking a govenment job instead of a Big-Law one is not a backup plan, its a career choice.  Contract work, law clerk jobs, and working at Starbucks are backup plans.  Lots of those government jobs can be as competitive as trying to work at Skadden.

8. Posted by Brad - 2 months, 2 weeks, 17 hours, 2 minutes ago

   Ellen is proof positive that a good LSAT score doesnt equate to intelligence.  Not assuming that she had one though, but I am sure her BOYFRIEND has something to say about that.

9. Posted by Brad - 2 months, 2 weeks, 17 hours ago

   Pierre,

   Couldnt agree more.  Government, especially fed jobs, are next to impossible to get, even with experience.  No experience, I am sorry, you aint getting the job save for law review top 10, etc.  For lower level government jobs around here, those pretty much required a focus in law school on trial work and crim law to get.  Have a general focus in your JD, good luck getting those too.

10. Posted by why Ellen, why? - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 43 minutes ago

    Why does everyone of Ellen’s posts include a mention of her boyfriend?  Why???

11. Posted by A - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 42 minutes ago

    Mark:

    Excellent comment! The real issue with lawyer pay is simple economics, the laws of supply and demand apply to all professions. Simply put, there are too many lawyers and not enough clients. That basic economic principle has eroded lawyer pay for the past 30 years. Combine that with the fact that law schools and the ABA actively try to hide and distort the truth about lawyer pay (whichfor most new grads will be in the low 40’s doing tort work) and you have a generation of young lawyers in a crisis of low pay and excessively high student loans.

    As Doc remarked, perhaps we should have gone to medical school.

12. Posted by why Ellen, why? (oops) - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 40 minutes ago

    That should be “every one”

13. Posted by BC - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 39 minutes ago

    I have two comments…

    1) Is Ellen a REAL lawyer, or is it a joke someone plays every week on the rest of the readers?  To have that many spelling, gramatical, and flat out illogical comments in a post every week can’t be by a competent attorney.

    2) I enjoy how law schools are now telling students to have back up plans.  Does anyone else think this is, oh, I don’t know, a little unethical.  Here are the universities accepting more and more law students each year in addition to raising tuition.  Then when the students who think they bettered themselves by getting a JD at the end of three years are told “Yeah…you may have to look outside of the legal field to get a job.  Good luck.  Thanks for the cash.”  Unbelievable.

    I can personally say that the job market is horrible.  Not just for new grads, but for everyone.  I’m finishing up my federal clerkship and looking for a job, and I can’t even get an interview.  Apparently I should start looking elsewhere.  Perhaps I’ll be the beerman at the Steelers home games or a waiter at the local Olive Garden.  How are those for back up plans?  Thanks law school!  I’m glad I paid you all that money to have a back up plan of waiting tables and screaming “Beer Here”.

14. Posted by TD - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 39 minutes ago

    I AGREE with Casey, but I’m DISAPPOINTED that he FORGOT to point out the EXCESSIVE use of ALL CAPS.

15. Posted by Hylas - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 32 minutes ago

    Mark, you blame everyone but the most important person responsible for your predicament:  yourself.  Who made you go to law school?  Whose duty is it to guarantee you a job?  Go out and get one like the rest of us have to do.  You miss the point about education.  Its purpose is to educate you, not entitle you to a job.  This is not the first generation to deal with a distressed market.  It sounds like you are saying, the schools and the ABA should collaborate, and limit the number of schools so as to assure that the graduates could find jobs at salaries high enough to satisfy them upon graduation. [the American Medical Association also made exactly this argument about medical schools several years ago.]  Did you happen to take antitrust while you were in school, or is that another thing you would like to blame the ABA, foreigners, or diversity programs for?

16. Posted by Hylas - 2 months, 2 weeks, 16 hours, 21 minutes ago

    I also have trouble with the notion that lawyer pay has gone down.  I find first year associates’ pay at big firms shockingly high, & all out of proportion to the value they bring.  As even the oil cartels have learned, no one is immune from the laws of supply & demand.  It’s a lesson that some, like the large firms, take longer to learn than others.  As we can see from this Board, there is plenty of talent that would work for a lot less.  But they are all such status-mad sheep that none of them yet dare to offer something closer to a market rate.

17. Posted by Brian - 2 months, 2 weeks, 15 hours, 36 minutes ago

    I think we’d be fine if the people who have no business being in law school didn’t go (the folks who go because daddy wants them to, or go because they didn’t know what to do after undergrad.)  To others wanting to go, I suggest they work to keep the debt low.  We in Texas have a few schools that do evening P/T programs.  We work all day, and go to class at night.  It takes more like four years, but it helps to keep the debt low.  I feel sorry for people who think that they’re guaranteed a great salary upon passing the bar.

18. Posted by Paul Hobbs - 2 months, 2 weeks, 15 hours ago

    Wow, nothing like the fine art of living precariously with a wife, a newborn and $150,000 in law school debt. With news like this, a loan default are the least of my worries.

19. Posted by TDB - 2 months, 2 weeks, 14 hours, 58 minutes ago

    Mark & BC—Completely agree!

20. Posted by Philo - 2 months, 2 weeks, 13 hours, 46 minutes ago

    Again, I am ever so glad that when I went to law school I was already a working nurse during the day.  After several years of school, keeping the loans at or below $55,000 (by already working), doing a tour with a trial judge as his law clerk, then sending out over a thousand resumes (blanketed most of the east coast firms), even tried JAG a couple times (a very competitive process BTW, hundreds and hundreds apply, then they take 75)...no luck…I’m working as a nurse for an insurance company!
    I honestly thank my undergraduate school advisor for NOT laughing (but encouraging) when I told him I was considering nursing as a second degree all those years ago for the travel possibilities and job security.
    Oh yeah - and thanks ABA for the wonderful job you do. ;)~

21. Posted by JME - 2 months, 2 weeks, 13 hours, 38 minutes ago

    Oh heck, I just figured I’d do it for the privilege of reading Ellen’s posts.  What’s $100K in debt?  Besides, I’ve got survival skills, so if it trully crashes, and I can’t make it as a lawyer (I own my own firm in a small town, fresh out of school) I can always take my family and live in the mountains, just like Robin Hood, right?

22. Posted by CJT - 2 months, 2 weeks, 13 hours, 19 minutes ago

    To #15

    Hylas, you’re dead wrong if you think this is a case of supply and demand.  Most professions have standards for admission.  Law schools used to be this way.  However our profession’s desire for increased diversity has led to the opening of schools with virturally no standards who are nothing short of diploma mills.  This is where the ABA has sold us out.  They’ve opened the flood gates to supply with easy standards and lies about starting salary and only after one invests does one realize that the demand isn’t there.

    Now I truly believe that the job market will get better, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t things the organization that speaks for the profession should be doing.

23. Posted by TomA - 2 months, 2 weeks, 13 hours, 7 minutes ago

    When does a JD behind someone’s name hurt them?  When they’re looking for a “backup plan!”  I get infuriated when people suggest that someone with a law degree could be flipping burgers or waiting tables.  That does nothing to advance your career and impresses on people that you’ve failed as a lawyer, when the truth is most have never been given a real chance.  I went to law school as a 2nd career.  I’ve been practicing for about 2 1/2 years and am now making less than 2/3 what I did before I entered law school, and I am carrying massive debt.  I know from past experience that the first few years of a career it’s “pay your dues,” although I think most of us figured that all the work and expense of law school should factor into that, but I honestly don’t see how I’m going to go from point A to point B (as in a dramatic increase in my pay).  Having a skill that you can (theoretically) charge $100+/hour for sounds great, but as a solo, you’re limited by market constraints and your own time.  Not to mention start up funding during a credit crisis when you already having tons o’ debt.  The bottom line is that if (big IF) I wanted to get a job in IT again, I don’t know if I could because it’s been awhile and the JD would almost be an embarassment because it would be such a waste that people wouldn’t see it as an achievement, but as failing as an attorney.

24. Posted by Mark V. - 2 months, 2 weeks, 12 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Hylas, you are wrong.  In comment #2, Mark identified one of the reasons so many law grads in are the predicament they are in: law schools and the legal profession mislead prospective students.  How?  First, by providing incomplete information regarding employment prospects.  Most schools boast that “97% of our grads are employed within 9 months of graduation.”  What they don’t tell you is how many of them are in retail, JD-preferred jobs where an actual license to practice law is not required, or dead-end temp jobs.  I know of career service offices that have counted their grads who bartend, serve tables, etc., as being employed.  When prospective students look at schools, they couldn’t possibly contemplate that those after-graduation employment statistics would include non-legal jobs.

    Second, the salary statistics often cited by ABA and others are hardly indicative of the actual salaries of law most law grads.  These statistics are typically based on the NALP surveys given to all 3Ls.  Those who are employed as 3Ls are more likely to have the higher paying law firm jobs and if most of the respondents are within that category, the numbers are going to disproportionately reflect those higher salaries.  NALP also fails to diclose how many people actually fill out those surveys.  Will the unemployed 3L whose salary will be $0.00 fill out such a survey about the job she doesn’t have?  Doubtful.  We have no idea on what percentage of law grads the $83,000 median salary (or whatever it is these days) is based.  Is it 80%, 60%, 20%? 

    You questioned whether Mark took Antitrust in law school, but if you knew anything about how free markets work, you would know that market participants need perfect information for the market to work efficiently.  Distorted employment and salary statistics prevent law school applicants from getting perfect information, thus resulting in an over-supply of attorneys and resulting inefficient legal job market.

25. Posted by Ellen Barshevsky's BOYFRIEND - 2 months, 2 weeks, 12 hours, 41 minutes ago

    Comment removed by moderator.

26. Posted by Bill - 2 months, 2 weeks, 12 hours, 8 minutes ago

    Unfortunately, I think the ABA is actively destroying the legal profession.

27. Posted by Ellen Barshevsky Mother - 2 months, 2 weeks, 11 hours, 33 minutes ago

    Ellen I hope your boyfriend is feeling better.  I am so proud of you!  You are just an amazing lawyer not only do you have time to do all your legal work but time to post all your very valuable comments on this and many other blogs.

28. Posted by Dr. Serle - 2 months, 2 weeks, 11 hours, 27 minutes ago

    Ellen I am so proud of you and hope that your example will be followed by hundreds if not thousands of other young ladys and gentlemen.  Oh and BTW I hope your Boyfriend is feeling better.

29. Posted by Steve Stoop - 2 months, 2 weeks, 11 hours, 20 minutes ago

    I think this need repeating.

    “Thanks, ABA. Your foresight and hard work are greatly appreciated by all recent law grads.  We’re very happy, for instance, that you’ve:

    * Helped increase the costs of legal education;
    * Failed to require schools to provide a realistic view of the job market for potential students;
    * Not warned the ignorant about the importance of the rankings when selecting schools;
    * Actively approved numerous unnecessary schools;
    * Ignored efforts at requiring adequate practical education;
    * Pushed “diversity” at the cost of those who are rejected and those you claim to help; and
    * Approved the outsourcing of lower-end, entry-level work to unlicensed foreigners.

    I’m looking forward to see what you do with changes to the conflicts rules and other fun topics in the years to come. “

30. Posted by SD Law Student - 2 months, 2 weeks, 10 hours, 37 minutes ago

    There is no way “Ellen” is a real person!  I am nearly certain “Ellen” is a bored 3L with no hope of a job (see article supra).  I’m sure “Ellen” gets a big laugh at people responding to “her” posts.  Haha!  Kudos.

31. Posted by GH - 2 months, 2 weeks, 10 hours, 28 minutes ago

    Wow..the ABA is sooo insightful. The warning is way too late. The ABA has always had blinders on when it came to post-law school employment. They do nothing to make their accredited law school report true employment numbers. The ABA is just too busy accrediting a record number of new law schools as money makers for those universities. Long before the economy today, most law grads had to have backup plans for jobs. Truly, how many grads get law jobs versus those who have to take other jobs like document reviewers to barristas? Some law schools, like mine, tout 100% of their law grad as employed within a year after graduation…but not all are practicing law…they take other jobs in retail, as barristas, drive cabs or do document review. I spent a year looking for a job and went back to doing what I did before law school and making what I did before law school but with tons of debt but was able to work myself into in-house no thanks to the ABA, my law school, or the legal community. So thanks ABA for such great and insightful career advice, albeit a little too late.

32. Posted by Chris - 2 months, 2 weeks, 10 hours, 22 minutes ago

    There are 44,000 law students graduating this year - that’s a huge number.  Is it that high every year?

33. Posted by Michelle - 2 months, 2 weeks, 9 hours, 38 minutes ago

    The numbers are over inflated, to keep fair market value high; in the business/corporate realm salaries are based on fair market statistics.  The corporate world would start paying less if they thought they could replace a $100K+ In house Attorney for a $40K tier 2 Mediocre Newbie, many corporations wouldn’t be able to tell the difference anyway.  In my own experience working in house, I basically issue spot, keep the CEO/CFO out of jail and refer the hot stuff to outside counsel a.k.a the Big Guns.

    In my opinion ABA Honesty would exacerbate our problems by lowering salaries even further. 

    Basically, your undergraduate major is more important than you think.  A B.A. in Basket Weaving will get you into some Law Schools, but good luck marketing that.  My friends who have physical science, engineering, or medical type degrees coupled with a J.D. are having absolutely no problems, matter of fact they are being head hunted.  Further, we have done it to ourselves, if no attorney will work for peanuts than they would have to pay more than peanuts, but their is always the desperados with the Basket weaving degrees to drive the prices down.  If you make more with your BA or BS you would go back to that, but for many they can’t make crap with thier BA so they get low balled on thier J.D.  Outside of “Law Firm World” most people and many corporations could care less about what law school you went to, your grades, LSAT score etc, they basically think of you as the annoying doomsday person they need to out manuever to make business deals work, trust me you need to understand thier industry, example basket weaver turned lawyer, is going to fumble giving advice regarding pharmaceutical company compliance, now pharmacy tech turned J.D. better equipped.

    Bottom line, anyone whom decided to be an attorney, and didn’t have the personality trait to do their due diligence, shouldn’t be an attorney…..these people keep our malpractice premiums high.

34. Posted by PW - 2 months, 2 weeks, 9 hours, 14 minutes ago

    Mark, Steve Stoop, etc…

    I always find it interesting when a person blames “diversity” when he/she feels inadequate, because of the lower rated law school he/she attended, or because they weren’t able to land a big firm job.

    The reality is that the low number of minority law students, and subsequently the very limited number of persons of color entering the legal profession have/had very little impact, if any, on your life.  The overwhelming majority of law students and lawyers are white. 

    With that said, there are a good number of white students that get in because of their “legacy” status; not their merit.

    Regardless of legacies or minorities, you would likely still be sitting on the sidelines whining about your pathetic life, because evidently you didn’t do well enough in undergrad to get into a “top” school, and wherever you did go, you obviously didn’t stand out academically or have the personality to wow the right people.  Shocking?  I think not considering your rediculous whining.

    Sometimes you just have to face the facts: you’re not as brilliant or charming as you think you are.

    Stop whining and make whatever necessary changes to your life, so that you take accountability for your future If you’re as powerless as your comments indicate, “diversity” outreach is the least of your worries.

35. Posted by Hero_of_a_thousand_faces - 2 months, 2 weeks, 9 hours, 5 minutes ago

    I graduated law school at 38 years old a couple of years ago and have very little debt after paying cash for most of the tuition. Though I originally did it to get a second career in law in my former industry, since graduation I’ve found much better paying work where - incredibly - they see the JD as somewhat of an asset (though of course, it’s not a necessity).

    I agree with the posters above who said the JD is a final nail in the coffin for most people, though, especially those straight from undergrad.  It only works positively for me because of my prior experience in a completely unrelated field. Those who do not have anything else should NOT go to law school, period.

    Oh, BTW,  I’ve also taken three bar exams and failed every one of them. And in case you’re wondering, I got a 3.0 and was never in academic jeopardy. I guess I’m just an idiot that law school moved through the system for the right price.

    So I got lucky; my backup plan is now my original plan. Law was an overpriced, near-total waste of three years and over a hundred grand.

    Though that’s bad enough, it sickens me to think where I’d be with no bar admission, no alternate career and mountains of debt staring me in the face. Warning to kids:

36. Posted by Hero_of_a_thousand_face - 2 months, 2 weeks, 9 hours, 3 minutes ago

    oops - warning, continued:

    **DON’T GO TO LAW SCHOOL**

37. Posted by Starving Lawyer - 2 months, 2 weeks, 8 hours, 38 minutes ago

    Post No. 7 quoted for friggin’ truth.  I’m a lit attorney with three years of BigLaw experience and numerous successful trials and appeals under my belt.  Several months ago I was offered a position as a State Deputy Attorney General, but told that I had to wait for official placement due to budgetary concerns.  Last week I received a recission letter in the mail, citing those same “concerns.”  Government as a backup, indeed.

38. Posted by Doey Eyed - 2 months, 2 weeks, 8 hours, 8 minutes ago

    When I was looking for a law school in the late 80s, I was told over and over again: “The J.D. is the M.B.A. of the 90s.”  I was told that there were numerous options to practicing law and that the J.D. provided skill sets that are widely applicable.  Yes, I took the bait hook, line, and sinker only to find out that the M.B.A. is the M.B.A. of the 90s.  Similar to #35, I failed the bar exam twice and never looked back.  I didn’t want to be one of those people who took it numerous times and was hitting the talk show circuit based on this unwanted “claim to fame.”

    After graduation, I clerked for a judge for a year.  However, he was a “one clerk, one year” type and was not prepared to make me a permanent member of his staff; so, after a year, I had to move on.  Despite rather valiant efforts, I tried to look for “alternative” employment that would appreciate a J.D., but not require bar admission.  This was no easy task.  I had quite a few missteps and nightmares between now and then.  Perhaps I should write a book about those experiences.  I was finally able to find a “career” that satisfies my needs and helps me make ends meet, but I always wonder what “could have been.” 

    The best things that came out of law school for me are the relationships that I maintain to this day.  It’s almost like when you survive a horror and that experience forever ties you together.  Although I do not overtly dissuade people that ask me about law school from going, I underscore what my experience was and encourage them to do more research than I did before making a final decision.

39. Posted by billy bob - 2 months, 2 weeks, 8 hours, 5 minutes ago

    Why do law students somehow see themselves as different from any other major?  This happens all across the board with other degrees as far as I can tell.  I know people who received engineering, teaching and business degrees who never got jobs in their respective areas.  Theoretically attorneys can start their own shop right out of law school, but I can’t see that creating very good attorneys.  I don’t know what I would have done without someone mentoring (a/k/a telling me what to do) my first 2-3 years of practice….probably commit malpractice several times.

    I do agree though with all the comments on cost/benefit ratio of law school, and the law schools over-stating first year salaries- mainly by just reporting the mean, rather than median, salaries of 1st year’s.  The law schools are way too expensive ($1,000 a credit hour- are you serious), but their classes are full!  So how does the ABA tell schools that meet the criteria- you can’t have an accredited law school, how do these schools tell students with grades and LSATs- you can’t come here, how do state bars tell qualified applicants -you can’t practice in this state?  The answer simply can’t be there are too many lawyers already!  They build them and they keep coming!  For whatever reason the market supply and demand continually stay out of whack as to attorneys, which seems to suggest an information gap or an overestimation by law students of their ability to overcome the forces of averages in school and in getting a job.  There’s always the peace corps-! but seriously it is shame for someone to slap down $100k to end up with squat, but price is obviously not a deterrent to the hopefuls.

40. Posted by Bill - 2 months, 2 weeks, 7 hours, 58 minutes ago

    I applied to an entry-level state legislative attorney position. The only requirement was that you be licensed, and the starting salary was $35,000. I received a rejection letter that said based on my qualifications, I was ranked #65 in the list of candidates. The top five got interviews. Who knows how many applicants were ranked below me. “Government jobs as a backup plan” is as much as joke as most second and third tier JD degrees are these days.

41. Posted by JRA - 2 months, 2 weeks, 5 hours, 29 minutes ago

    After reading these coments I must admit I was quite surprised by the number of comments from people regretting their decision to go to law school and then subsequently blaming the schools or the ABA or some esoteric other force which somehow forced them into their decision to enter this profession.  The real lesson that should be learned from this is, if you are planning on attending a graduate school, any graduate school solely because you think it will land you a good job making lots of money and not because you truly want to practice in that profession then you are making a huge mistake.  Prior to Law School I was an accountant, I had a good job and made decent money but was miserable, and I worked with other accounting majors who were also miserable.  The point is neither they nor myself ever wanted to be accountants but we majored in it because we thought it would land us a job.  And it did but the work was miserable.  The happy accountants were the ones who wanted to be accountants.  After passing the bar and struggling through nearly six months of unemployment I was fortunate to land a job after law school working as a Prosecutor, which is exactly why I went to law school in the first place.  While I’m not raking in the dough, I’m extremely happy with my work.  My point is get a degree because you want to excel in a field you like, not because someone tells you “you’ll get a great job” or “you’ll make a ton of money.”  Because more than likely even if you are one of those lucky few who land that “big job” and you only got into it for the money you’re probably going to hate it anyway and all the money won’t make up for hating a place you spend most of your waking hours in.  Do what you love not what you think will get you paid.

42. Posted by LA - 2 months, 2 weeks, 5 hours, 29 minutes ago

    PW, post 34: Right on. Absolutely right on.

43. Posted by Anonymous Coward - 2 months, 2 weeks, 4 hours, 46 minutes ago

    Mark, right on.  Hylas, I’m sorry but you have no clue.

    Sure, nobody owes me a job.  But if I work hard, do well in law school, and pass the bar, then yes, somebody bloody well owes me a job.

    The only reason I went to law school was because all the engineering jobs are being outsourced.  Now guess what, all the legal jobs are being outsourced.  Thanks ABA for allowing me to charge monopoly prices, not.  Thanks law school, for taking my money then telling me to ask myself do I really want to practice law.

44. Posted by ashley - 2 months, 2 weeks, 3 hours, 48 minutes ago

    The legal profession, to be a litigator, can be exciting and exhausting.  It can be rewarding and thankless, on any given day I have no idea how I will emerge from my office when reflecting on my life choices. 

    In this profession, I’ve met some very impressive and intelligent individuals where I felt ill suited and out classed at the table.  I’ve met other opposing counsel where the only real question at the end of the day is whether my supervisor really wants to go through with the referral to bar counsel. 
    I’ve seen both parties walk away from a mediation happy, and I’ve seen a family essentially bankrupted by a pro se litigant on a fishing expedition. 

    I’m so far in debt that it is suffocating, and yet I’m a gun slinger for hire. 
    I’m a paper pusher some of the time. 
    Opposition on thursday, deposition on tuesday, motions to compel all around. 

    I went to law school for the education, and because of the respect that I hold for one of our nations oldest professions. 

    I’m not all together that jaded by the system, let down by my job, or angry about the education I received. 
    What really bothers me is, if I had it all to do over again, that I would never have picked this job.

45. Posted by r - 2 months, 2 weeks, 2 hours, 12 minutes ago

    These people get no sympathy from me!!  I guess they watched Boston Legal too much and thought it would be easy-going. I taught law school for 5 years and saw the sickening, arrogant, haughty, expectant look on their faces as they talked on their cell phones during class.  I hear they’re hiring greeters at Wal-Mart.  But people with smirks on their faces need not apply!  Too bad suckers.  My first job as a lawyer in 1976 paid $10,500—-per year!  If Wal-Mart won’t hire you, try Big Lots or the Dollar Store!!  You have gotten what you deserve.  Now maybe you’ll learn a little humility.

46. Posted by anonymous - 2 months, 1 week, 6 days, 23 hours, 47 minutes ago

    $37852.47$37852.47Well, funny you mention it, but $10,500 in 1976 is about $37852.47 of todays dollars. So you can see that the salary picture hasn’t changed all that much for a lot of law grads.

    What has changed is the price, which even adjusted for inflation is way out of control. Furthermore, since you graduated,  the number of admitted attorneys is at least double, making older folks like yourself crank up the bar exam difficulty level in a transparent effort to keep out new attorneys as much as you’re legally able to get away with.

    And as for humility, what exactly do you call the torture of the bar exam?

    And based on your attitude and comments,I don’t believe for a minute that you ever taught law anywhere respectable.

47. Posted by Hates law - 2 months, 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes ago

    I got a full tuition scholarship to Washington and Lee and graduated in 2007 with no idea what lawyers do.  I passed the Bar the first time but I couldn’t get a job so I’m back in school (undergrad) to complete the pre-reqs for medical school (which most lawyers aren’t bright enough to go to). 

    What a terrible, terrible choice it was to go to law school.  I gained all the “skills” law school teaches in the first semester, the rest was a waste.  Also, since “elite” schools pride themselves on not teaching anything practical, I had to take BarBri to learn the law that was tested on the Bar. 

    I wish someone could have told me that the practice of law is actually easy (except maybe litigation, which requires good acting).  My wife is a third year resident neurologist and she had to take different exams that actually provide a score so resident programs can objectively compare job applicants.  What an amazing concept!  An objective test with a real score and everything!  I wish someone could have told me that the difficult part of becoming a lawyer is finding someone or some firm willing to teach you what lawyers do.

48. Posted by Older, perhaps wiser - 2 months, 1 week, 6 days, 11 hours, 59 minutes ago

    I am a second career lawyer.  I enjoyed my first career.  I was good at what I did.  But now, I am a lawyer, bound by professional ethics and proud of it.  I defend and assert the interests of my clients, not myself, as I am bound to. I love what I’m doing so much, I’m working on an LL.M. in my area of practice.  I want to practice law, and, if I’m diligent, I will be successful.  Please note, I haven’t planned to make lots of money.  But, I will eventually because I love what I do.  Clients notice these things and tend to reward it.  I know from my first career experience.

    A dream is a dream because it hasn’t happened yet. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen eventually.  If you can’t wait for your dream,  perhaps “planning” would be more useful.  From my first career, I know that the failure to plan is planning to fail, and if you don’t have a “Plan B,” you haven’t planned at all. 

    Graduate school should never be “Plan B.”  It has always been a good idea to have practical experience at doing something other than pursue academic degrees.  (I am particularly qualified here as I have a non-law related Masters degree). 

    Stop moaning!  As a wise judge reminded me, “You’re a member of the bar,” an implicit direction to remember that our behavior reflects on our colleagues as well.

    Times are challenging.  So what?!  There is a lot of injustice that requires our expertise.  There are victims in need of representation.  There are entrepreneurs, even now, seeking to start business.  There is work out there, if you want it.  You can do good.  Who knows, you may even do well.

49. Posted by Bridges01 - 2 months, 1 week, 6 days, 8 hours, 30 minutes ago

    At least once a day a parent says to me I would sue the school district because of their failure to provide an education for my child with autism. One parent told me her child’s doctor said he would testify because the infection caused by the school’s failure to change her daughter’s diapers was so bad he was required to report the case for child abuse. The result of all these complaint’s was no legal action attempted. All the parent’s decided that they could not afford to take legal action. Parents of children in the autistic spectrum are estimated to spend millions of dollars to educate and raising them. Perhaps if the same parents had reason to believe the legal profession could assist in making their children’s lives better, there would be more work for the legal profession. Certainly the school districts and private schools have easy access to legal representation.

50. Posted by Soothsayer - 2 months, 1 week, 6 days, 7 hours, 41 minutes ago

    Those of you blaming the current law school debt/oversupply issues on diversity programs are too dumb to hired by a reputable firm.  Look at the numbers.  Most US lawyers are white.  Moreover, 95%+ of lawyers in big firms are white.  Please tell me how diversity programs have caused a large number of idiots to incur 6 figures in debt to pursue a comparatively minute number of jobs paying enough to service that debt?

51. Posted by Not the sharpest Crayon - 2 months, 1 week, 6 days, 7 hours, 20 minutes ago

    Dear Ellen Barshevsky,

    Are you retarded?

52. Posted by Dr. D. - 2 months, 1 week, 5 days, 14 hours, 31 minutes ago

    I’m considering law school as a second career to be used in conjunction with my medical education. I’m in my mid-40’s, single, no kids. 
    I have spent the last hour reading all of the current postings about attending law school (or not) and criticism against ABA. I’m licensed in my state to practice medicine(not M.D., but close to it) and Registered Nurse.  In my area of the United States, though my credentials are unique and well qualify me, I can’t get a medical job because I don’t speak Spanish. (I’m a native of this city, but now an Anglo alien)
    I’m currently enrolled in an LL.M. program at a local ABA law school. (yes, this program allows non-J.D. graduates, if we have a current professional degree). To date, I’m passing all my classes. (The credits fully transfer to the J.D. for Year Three). By the way, they teach the classes in English.
    I was told, compared to the younger student, I would have a better chance of finding a position with a law firm and/or government after graduation,  because of my advanced medical background. She even supposed I would be recruited during my 2nd year. Worst case, I would most likely be recruited by the same law school to teach after graduation. This is a private law school, tuition and expenses will run up to $100K, and the person advising me was an admissions counselor. Due to personal obligations I’m not able to relocate at this time to find wok in my current medical profession. So I thought going to law school would also be a constructive use of my free time. By the way, I would probably have to finance a good part of the law school tuition.
    I have a meeting next week with a member of the admissions committee. I have to make a decision soon. This school offers a January ‘09 start. I did read a previous posting that stated someone with a technical background like mine would have a better chance being recruited out of law school. However, I still welcome anyone’s point of view. Oh yea, forgot to mention, I’m already enrolled thru correspondence with a California Bar recognized distance law school. I successfully passed Year One. They award Bar(California) and non-Bar degrees. I’m enrolled in the non-Bar track so I could get a feel for the study of law and for “personal enrichment” . Cost for the entire program is only $6000.

    Wishing all of you prosperity in your legal ventures.

53. Posted by Ellen's BF - 2 months, 1 week, 5 days, 9 hours, 5 minutes ago

    It definitely helps to have a something to fall back on.  I quit a good professional job to attend law school when I was 33.  Luckily, I had enough savings and paid my own way through school, with some family assistance during my last year.  Although I was disappointed by law school, I have no regrets.

    Here are some reasons why I was disappointed.  First, I expected law school to have a more mature crowd.  Having successfully finished undergrad and spending one year touring the world may make one interesting but does not prepare one for what comes after law school. 

    Second, those classes required for 1L are a joke.  Except for legal writing, nothing is practical.  Most of the professors have never had a real job or had only clerked for some judge years ago.  These are the people researching principles of law that never happen in the real world, and there they were, preparing me for a career in law.  2/3L were better because I could choose classes taught by real lawyers.

    Lastly, law school AND employers care too much about grades than what one brings in terms of life experience.  Being a good lawyer is not about having good grades but about being food at analyzing ANY information and understanding other’s needs.  But, nope, if you’re not top 20, your chances of getting a decent job begins to dimminish because of the blind spots employers have.  I advise every student to try to find a legal summer job to gain some experience.  Sadly, this too, may become more scarce if the job market continues to spiral downwards.

    Turns out even before I graduated, my former boss asked me to consider returning.  I hesitated because I did want to try out law to see if I would enjoy it.  Not too long ago, I turned down a good law job offer and took on another offer working for a large company in a different country.  It was a hard decision because I still wonder whether I’d enjoy practicing law, not just as a summer law clerk.

    But it is nice to have choices.  I think it’s probably more difficult to return to school for a different major after law school simply because of the debts most students incur during law school.  Also, my professors used to joke that we were in law school because we hated math.  I guess he didn’t know I am an engineer.  Another blind spot.

    So, Dr. D - I think you need to consider what areas of law you want to practice.  With your background, you could focus on intellectual property law.  There are quite a few jobs still in that area.  I’m not so sure medical malpractice is a good thing - I see lots of MDs/JDs advertising their services.  It’s of course best if you can finance law school without taking out a loan.  Private tuition is really, quite ridiculous.  As if they think all students who graduate will get a six figure salary immediately after law school.  I’m not so sure having a technical background is a sure bet on being recruited.  What really matters to most is a high GPA.  A few of my classmates with a technical background still found it hard to find decent jobs or the job of their choice.  Good luck on your decision!  Tips on the CA bar - do lots of practice essays.

    Ellen, if you don’t stopping referring to me in your posts, I will stop cooking “sammon"for you.

54. Posted by Amy K - 2 months, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes ago

    Law hiring is definitely cyclical, and those unfortuante enough to graduate during a down turn in the market can ultimately benefit from a furture upturn.  I’m speaking from experience—got my JD from a good school in ‘93, during a definite downturn.  I had substantial law school debt upon graduation.  After a great deal of searching, found a decent first job and worked very hard at it, knowing that many other new lawyers would love to have that job.  Within five years, the attorney hiring cycle had greatly improved and I had good work experience under my belt, so the headhunters came looking for me.  I like what I’m doing and believe that enduring the tough times early in my career (also the motivation of paying off law school) benefited me in the long run.  I’m now GC at a great company and don’t regret law school one bit, although in hind sight I wish I would have picked a school with more affordable tuition.  For those graduating in ‘09, hang in there and realize that the market will turn around one day.  Work your butt off in the meantime, and you will be in a position to take advantage of opportunities that develop in a few years.

55. Posted by CJT - 2 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 59 minutes ago

    To #54

    Amen.

56. Posted by luxmentis - 2 months, 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 42 minutes ago

    Most people think I’m crazy for going to law school and not wanting to be a practicing attorney.  For me, I’ve chosen the JD/MBA route - I’m in my 2nd year.  I’ve had a great career already, and fully intend to continue in my same career field (banking/finance), but at a different level once I receive the degrees.  There are a lot of higher-level finance positions that are JD-preferred, even in this messy market.  Drowning in debt is awful and it’s exhausting trying to balance the full time school load with a full time job, but I know it will be worth it in the long run.  You have to stick with your dreams and goals even when the going gets tough.

57. Posted by san diego lawyer - 2 months, 1 week, 4 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes ago

    Dr. D, If you are already a medical professional with some sort of license, and the only thing truly holding you back from finding a job in your area is the fact that you don’t speak Spanish ... why not consider learning Spanish?  Taking language classes at a community college or buying audio tapes is a lot cheaper than law school.  I’m not trying to be flip.  As the general tenor of these comments shows, you really shouldn’t go to law school because you’re not sure what to do or because you think it might make you more marketable—particularly, if your views on marketability are based primarily on the advice of a law school admissions counselor.  If there’s some specific career you’d like to pursue and you know it’s one where a J.D. is a benefit or required (and you know because you’ve researched the field, talked to employers in the field, etc.), then, by all means, get the J.D.  But if you’re just hoping a J.D. will land you a good job and your only information about career prospects is coming from a law school admissions counselor, you may not be making the wisest decision.  And I’m serious about learning Spanish.  (I don’t speak it myself and wish I did, although it’s not necessary for my job.)  It wouldn’t cost much, and it would be a great investment in the field you’re already in.  Anyway, best of luck.

58. Posted by Serp - 2 months, 1 week, 4 days, 8 hours ago

    I wish I had just gone to medical school.  The bar exam is far easier than the mcat and the boards, but the reward and ability to get a job are much greater through the medical field.  The pay isn’t great there either and it’s a lot of hours, but security and the actual job function are for most people better.

    I am taking the patent bar next month, but I doubt I’ll get a patent job either.  I don’t want to be a lawyer, I want to just work for the government in some capacity, but even those jobs are very difficult to obtain.  I’d gladly volunteer somewhere for experience but even that is hard to do.  That tells you the value of a law degree, even free labor is competitive.

    A law degree does not open doors or give you greater opportunities.  What I should have done was just worked my way up those 3 years in some capacity instead.  Without student loans you’ve got many options, with them things become a bit more complex and you get restricted in your opportunities.

    I don’t know whether I should go to medical school now, I’m already 26 and I am having trouble forcing myself to study even for the patent bar.

59. Posted by indylawyer - 2 months, 1 week, 4 days, 5 hours, 12 minutes ago

    I think that what has consistently shocked me over the years is the irrationality of the vetting process—- situated squarely in a profession that prides itself on rationality.  The process begins with law review selection—- which is based on the grades from the first year.  Moreover, these grades are set somewhat arbitrarily as well, and wholly contingent on final examinations.  So, regardless of your intelligence or legal acumen, if you get the yips during your first year exams, you are finished.  Then, when looking for a job, your grades, particularly your first year ones, are the sole determinant for whether you get a prestigious job or are shunted off to small firm, government work, or solo practice.  Then, in an incestuous process, big law firm associates are in the running for prestigious government jobs (the US Attorney or the SEC) while other attorneys are largely mired in second tiered status.  Over the years, the gulf continues to widen between the haves and the havenots, with no one at any point questioning if the have’s are in any meaningful sense better lawyers or thinkers than the have-nots.  This irrational system thwarts ambition, and puts a premium on conformity. It is anything but a meritocracy.  To my colleagues out there who feel as I do, I can only say that the key thing is to continue to be creative in coming up with solutions that, if they do not take you out of the legal field entirely, at least can allow you to use your degree in a novel way.  So, I am studying Spanish abroad in the hopes of opening a community law office, or perhaps working with other Spanish speaking attorneys.  A friend of mine is looking into creating a company that will coordinate the outsourcing legal work to India.  You may or may not agree with these ideas, but I think the overall point is that it is incumbent on use to be creative, and ultimately to steer yourself into areas that you enjoy.  Having said that, I do not think that enough scorn and contempt can be poured on the system of legal education.  For my part, I went to a relatively prestigious school (the University of Illinois), and at every juncture, I was confronted with pompous mediocrities who had not the slightest inkling of what it took to be a practicing lawyer.  Moreover, they were not even particularly bright, knowing only the intricacies of their own discipline, but little else.  Although, to be sure, these buffoons were well-versed in the varieties of humiliation and sarcasm.  And for this abuse, I incurred over $80,000 worth of debt.

60. Posted by Dr. D., NP-C - 2 months, 1 week, 3 days, 23 hours, 30 minutes ago

    Hello to everyone who responded to my inquiry about attending law school as a second career in conjunction with my medical profession. Thank you!. No doubt all of you have given me a more realistic insight to the legal academic environment. Yes, in the short time I’ve attended the LL.M. program I have wondered what justifies a $850-$950 per credit tuition rate. Even the average starting salaries of new grads is less than I would make just working part-time as an R.N.! Ironically today, I had the “opportunity” to interview with one of the admission board members. Yes, he was more concerned about LSAT scores and GPA than my professional accomplishments and life experience. Of course, my medical expertise came in handy when he tried to recruit me for Pro Bono at a medical clinic. But of course, I still have to retake the LSAT. Guess this helps answer my question…it will be cheaper and more effective to learn Spanish to enhance my medical career and marketability rather than the greater expense of attending an ABA law school.

    However, for personal enrichment and because of it’s minimal cost, I’ll probably go ahead and complete my last two years of law school with the California Bar correspondence program that I already started.  This would be the “Executive non-Bar J.D.”. I figure it won’t hurt to enhance my academic credentials.

    To all of my colleagues..Happy Holidays, to you and yours,

    Dr. D., NP-C

61. Posted by Michael Huerta - 2 months, 1 week, 1 day, 16 hours, 36 minutes ago

    Most of what I think on the subject has been said, but I will state that the profession of law is not for everyone. I am sorry if you feel you have wasted your money and time in law school, I doubt there is anything I or anyone else could say to make you feel better. Life is short, so take what you have and move along to a place you can be happy. Good luck!

62. Posted by r - 2 months, 1 week, 13 hours, 36 minutes ago

    Take your lumps and move on, you spoiled brats