ABA Journal - Law News Now

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1. Posted by fred - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 4 hours, 8 minutes ago

   I love my law firm

2. Posted by CJ - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes ago

   It’s because they can’t make everyone partner, even though they lure people in with that in mind. The whole scheme needs to be rethought, and peoples expectations will adjust.

3. Posted by WG - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes ago

   How many more of these studies have to be done before law firms WAKE UP?

4. Posted by Ted - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 41 minutes ago

   The problem is law school prices.  I need a high salary to pay back the $150,000 in loans.  (Some of my frineds also have unergrad loans as well.)  But if a firm wanted repay the loans, and give me less money coupled with less billables, and a 20 year partnership track (in stead of ten) I’d consider it.  And i’d probably stay.

5. Posted by TJ - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 25 minutes ago

   The problem is two-fold: (1) partners who do not manage their time well, which then punishes the associates with unnecessary panic deadlines and (2) associates who want top pay but only bill 1500 hours.  Neither of these foster loyalty.  I’m sorry to say that the newer associates (especially those from the “top” law schools) do not impress me at all, and often embarrass our profession with their whining.  Being an attorney is a tough job, but people with otherwise useless undergrads see law as the only way to make money.

6. Posted by The Pontificator - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 43 minutes ago

   I agree with TJ.  New associates are awful.  They come from their ivy league schools that daddy bought their way into and then they are horrified that they actually have to work.  Being the understanding type and an ardent believer in “Baptism by Fire”, I am sure to load the work up on them prior to all holiday weekends.  The higher pay is killing it for everyone… law firms still need to make money and, therefore, more hours need to be worked in order to justify the higher pay.  So keep clamoring for higher pay… and I will keep piling on the work (with billing caps… of course).  And Ted needs to learning to proofread (a pet peeve of mine)!

7. Posted by The Corrector - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 38 minutes ago

   The Pontificator needs to learning to proofread as well!

8. Posted by Jealous? - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 37 minutes ago

   Jealousy is a bad thing Pontificator. TTT ?

9. Posted by Ms. Featherbottom - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 34 minutes ago

   Pontificator, you must be a partner.  That sort of straw man argument doesn’t fly when you take a glance at profits per partner charts over the last few years.  Poor baby - you might have to reduce your salary by 5% from 1 million to 950k.

10. Posted by New Associate - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 28 minutes ago

    I am disgusted by some of the comments here. Pontificator would agree “New associates” includes any and all new associates. I am glad you have grouped the “new associates” that have over $100,000 in debt, like me, in with probably 1% of “new associates” running off of daddy’s money. Furthermore, I guess you are saying everyone whose father is helping them pay for law school whines? I am willing to bet you are an old timer, probably jaded by the fact of your old age.  Because of your age and “wisdom” you think throwing money at people who want to work less will solve the problem.  Your age gives you the right to determine what values are correct for our society.  Did you not get a clue from the article? You are not going to have any interest from “new associates” for long if you keep “piling on the work.“ This country has a wretched work-value system because of employers like you and your constant need to be at work.  Life is not living at the office.  The choice to be a lawyer is not for money, it is for running our country and society so that others can live in it.  You must have forgotten…

11. Posted by The Proofreader - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 21 minutes ago

    “The Pontificator” states that “And Ted needs to learning to proofread…“  I’m speechless.

12. Posted by The Student - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 18 minutes ago

    Is there any evidence that this is not what firms want or expect when they take classes of 50+ or 100+ summer associated.  Perhaps this is just the case of firms casting a wide net, and over the years allowing those less desirables to trickle out.

    Maybe, just maybe, this decrease in law firm loyalty is a product of what law firms are looking for when they hire classes 10 times larger than the number of students they expect to be partner track.  And maybe, just maybe, those that are placed on track are treated just a bit better than those that are expected to leave.  Sounds like fraternity hazing to me.

13. Posted by Me - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 12 minutes ago

    Pontificator, you the man/woman.

    Apparently our colleagues do not get sarcasm.  That is alright, they are on their way out anyway.  Though I did not proofread this, it is not important enough.

    Though I think that the point of the artcile is that people are not leaving because of money, they are leaving in spite of money.  Though Pontificator is probably the source of that.  Associates want more, but do not want to work more.  A 3-6% increase is cost of living increase.  A 10-15% increase means you are getting alot better at what you are doing or you are going to do alot more of it.  I can guarantee that second or third year associate is not the former, they then must be the latter.

14. Posted by JIMATHART - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 10 minutes ago

    I thinkthat the problem stems from several sources.The cost of lawschool which necessitates huge debt after graduation; the outlandish starting salaries at the huge “wall Street” firms which in turn require equally outlandish hourly billing rates; the tedium of the usual work done by lawyers which associates know is mostly “churning” ; the conflict built into the billable hours concept ; the lack of reciprocal loyalty by partners; and the greed and selfishness exhibited my most firms and partners; the thought that what is being done is important ; in some cases the fact that nobody in a law firm really cares much about what is right or just but rather what is profitable an expedient; the lack of civility and ethical lapses tha occur on a daily basis.

15. Posted by new associate #2 - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 9 minutes ago

    i agree with new associate.  our generation is different than yours.  it just is.  we’re not baby boomers.  most of us grew up in the 80s and 90s, the most prosperous times this country has ever seen.  we expect to be paid well and treated well.  valued.  perhaps we are naive.  i’m not suggesting we deserve what we want.  i’m saying many of us would sacrifice the money before we’d sacrifice feeling valued,  understood and appreciated.  perhaps i sound like dr. phil to some of your old timers.  fair enough.  but if associate loyalty is your problem, understand that these values foster it far more then extra bonuses.  give your associates feedback.  tell them when they do a good job.  is that so complicated?  treat them as though you want them to stick around and they will.

16. Posted by A Parker - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 5 minutes ago

    Interesting comments and some are still missing the point. I am in law school (3L) and during on campus interviews I was sickened with how many of the “big firms” wined and dined with nothing more to add to their offers than top pay. When I asked how they were responding to the new associate attrition rates, a look a sheer panic crossed most interviewers’ faces. I got several offers, but won’t be taking top pay. Money can be made, loans will be paid off, but enjoying my job, having the respect of my colleagues, enriching my profession, and serving my community means more to me than $160K a year. I agree with New Associate, the old ideas of piling on the work, demanding long hours, and trying to crack the new associates just because you pay them well fosters a terrible work-value system. A came to law school for myself, my family, and my community. I am not interested in sacrificing any of those for “top” pay.

17. Posted by kara - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour ago

    I am 28.  I have $150,000 in debt from a private (though not ivy league) law school.  I started at a small firm that paid like crap but had great flexible hours, low required billables, etc.  Three years later I left that firm because I was treated poorly, the firm was mismanaged, and despite the low required billables, I was slammed with work constantly, causing my marriage/personal life to suffer.  I went to another firm that pays only slightly more but ensures me a much better quality of life and better treatment in the office.  My point is, despite not being BigLaw and despite having massive debt, I have consistently sacrificed money for better treatment and quality of life, and will continue to do so.  Until BigLaw wakes up to this, they are going to continue to have the turnover they are having.  We ARE a different generation and expect respect from our employers.  Pontificator, etc. can whine about that concept all they want, but the truth of the matter is that we will “surf” firms until we find one that fits us.  Unlike Pontificator’s generation, we feel no “obligation” to stay somewhere that doesn’t appreciate us, regardless of pay or other factors.  Get used to it, because we’re not going away!

18. Posted by LawyerMom - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour ago

    It really is no wonder that new associates are not loyal.  Take for example, The Pontificator’s practice of piling on the work prior to all holliday weekends.  What kind of pay can compensate for this kind of treatment? 
    When I decided to become a lawyer I did not expect to be required to give up any semblance of a normal life.  This is a tradeoff that I, and many of my thirtysomething friends, don’t consider to be worth it.  I don’t believe that being a good lawyer requires that we sacrifice everything else in our lives.  Unfortunately, the older generation that currently runs the bigger law firms does seem to expect this kind of sacrifice.  Many of us have decided to forego the big salary in favor of having a family and a fulfilling life.  I only hope that once the older generation finally retires, the ones that take their places keep in mind the realities we all face.  And refuse to buy into the myth that good lawyers live only for the law.  Rather, truly good lawyers live well.  And this includes having a fulfilling life, whatever that means to you.

19. Posted by Sheesh! - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 58 minutes ago

    My family has to work 100 hours per week to enjoy the same standard of living that my father could provide with 50.  We have 3 kids, undergrad loans, law school loans, car loans, mortgage, day care, hospital bills, etc.  I am a 6th year at a big firm and my 3 young children don’t even have health insurance.  It’s disgraceful.

    I work my ass off, and I love it.  But I have a family to support, which means not only do I bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan, but I read books, tuck in, and kiss goodnight. 

    If Pontificator piles the work on at 7pm with an 8am deadline imposed not because of a client’s needs, but simply because he’s an asshole - he’s outta luck.  I’m home kissing my kids.

20. Posted by Old Partner - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 55 minutes ago

    Well put “new associate #2.“ As one of the old-timers in the profession, I have a very difficult time relating to your generation, and insightful posts like yours really help. However, my biggest disconnect continues to be that virtually every new associate I encounter craves positive feedback but is completely incapable of handling negative feedback and, at the first sign of adversity or hardship, simply bales on the firm and seeks out greener (i.e. less demanding) pastures. I relaize that my generation needs to change, but I remain convinced that today’s generation of new associates needs to change as well to survive in this difficult and demanding profession.

21. Posted by tj - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 53 minutes ago

    Yes, big firms wine and dine to get associates, and pay top dollar because it is a business and you need employees to run a business.  It’s unfortunate that that is the game they have to play now.  Sorry to rain on your parade, but law is not a 9-5 job and it is not a hug fest that so many seem to want.  I come from a very blue collar background.  I worked through law school so I didn’t have the huge loans.  I will stand by my original comment that many newer associates do not have that work ethic.  They want the prestige and top pay, but they don’t want to spend the long hours to learn the job or do the grunt work that is necessary to run the law firm business.  Yes, document review sucks.  Get over it.  Not everyone gets to write the next cited federal appeal brief or argue in front of the highest courts, especially in your first 1 to 7 years.  If you want that, go to a small firm and make $60k a year and do everything.  (and for those that are going to accuse me of being a greedy parnter, I am an associate at a large firm)

22. Posted by former big firm associate, now happy solo - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 47 minutes ago

    Easy to understand the problem - firms want too big a slice of the pie.  Associate grosses 2000 hrs * $300/hr. = $600K for firm, firm pays associate $160K salary + $40K benefits, firm nets $400K on the associate anyway you slice it.  Give the associate a life so they bill 1500 hours (what slackers!), then they gross $450K for the firm and the firm only nets $250K on the associate.  Firm needs to increase ratio of partners to associates and also lower their expectation of the percentage of the pie they can reasonably harvest off each associate.

23. Posted by Lady Law - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 45 minutes ago

    I have one retiring partner, one in house counsel, 3 paralegals, 4 staff, 3 companies, 2 adult kids in the business, and 1 thing to say.  Treat everyone as if they were your family, with respect, and don’t keep anyone who poisons the well once you know they won’t change.  Thank people, and understand they have lives.  I still get deadlines accomplished because they will work ‘till midnight in pj’s in order to get the flexibility to have life… and enjoy it!  So, that’s just me, but it does work.  :-)

24. Posted by LawyerMom - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 44 minutes ago

    Refusing to give up our lives for the sake of our firm’s bottom dollar is not the same thing as refusing to work hard.  I worked hard during law school and I continue to work hard for my firm now.  And no, law is not a 9-5 job.  It is also not a 12-12 job.  It is a job.  Not a life.

25. Posted by Sheesh! - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 43 minutes ago

    $160,000 per year buys the same standard of living that the old guys enjoyed when they were hired.  If it is slightly more, it’s because the firms no longer provide job security.  That’s the trade off.

26. Posted by LawyerMom - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 41 minutes ago

    Well said Lady Law.

    By the way, I often do work in PJ’s!

27. Posted by Sheesh! - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 35 minutes ago

    I’m working in my pjs now!

28. Posted by The Client Lawyer - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 35 minutes ago

    Try result billing with your clients and share the good results and bad results through out the firm.. Only when all you guys realise that you are in a “Results Business”  and not an “hourly rate” bisness, will you will ever truely be satisfied with your chosen profession.  That’s why I dumped the profession 25 years ago. Take a risk and I promise you that you will be a whole lot more satisfied and a hell of a lot more wealthier if you are successful at your profession.

29. Posted by tj - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 34 minutes ago

    Well said, Old Partner.  God forbid you tell a young associate they did something wrong.  In the last few years, I’ve actually seen several different assocaites cry when something they had written was redlined by senior associates or partners.  I know in school now they teach that everyone is great and nobody is better than the next person blah blah blah, but it’s all fantasy.  Real life is that new associates have a LOT to learn, and only those greedy partners can teach us.

30. Posted by BigW - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 34 minutes ago

    Ah, the whining of the overpaid.  I love how people “do the math” and show how much the firm is screwing them out of money that they rightfully “earned” themselves. 

    The only reason any of these people can bill out at $350 hr. when they are less than 30 years old is because they working under the supervision of somebody that the client trusts and respects enough to handle their affairs.  The only relevant metric of success in a private law firm is who brings in business and therefore generates the opportunities for others to work hard and bill out at high rates.  That’s how it has always worked. 

    If you want to be a big firm associate, learn a few things right now:

    (1) Nobody cares that you went to ____ and were on law review and got the Am. Jur. in Civil Procedure any more.  You still have to EARN your way through life, and that means work at least as hard as you did to get into the firm once you arrive.

    (2) If you want to make more than 90% of the population in your late 20’s early 30’s, there are some sacrificies that are required.  You don’t get all your weekends off, you do have to cancel vacations, not always be there for your spouse and kids, etc.

    (3) A lot of what goes into the practice of law is necessarily dull, unfilling, etc.  If you expect your job to be non-stop entertainment as well as high paying, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

31. Posted by Homer - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 33 minutes ago

    Pontificator, good points, but poor delivery.  (hmm . . . clearly partner “material”).  Most, but not all, new associates are total whiners.  [dislocure: I am a midlevel associate at a big firm, but this is my 3nd profession.  and I’m under 35.  so no one call me “old” or “crusty”!]

    This “my generation” BS is just an excuse for 1) poor performance, 2) laziness, 3) unrealistic expectations. 
    And another funny poster, harrumphing that new (a.k.a. “know nothing” lawyers) “expect respect”.  Wait . . . doesn’t one need to EARN respect?  What you expect is to be treated like a professional, and a courteous work environment.  FYI - Think first, post second.

    Newsflash campers:  being a lawyer is A) a service job (you know, as in “servant”), B) its isn’t supposed to be fun, or easy, or to make you feel like Ally McBeal, and C) you could always avoid the high cost schools, get good grades at a state school, and still knock out the top salary (as many of my colleagues have done).  Oh yes, that reminds me, another thing this “new generation” of lawyers should learn:  take responsibility for the consequences of your actions. 

    good weekend everyone! 
    cheers!

32. Posted by Happy In-House - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 30 minutes ago

    Lawfirms are sweat shops, offering poor quality of life with oppresive hours and abusive partners. Partners get great work product from associates that they “pile work on” - then, ultimately force those people out or fire them, not for incompetence, but because they don’t fit in with the firm image. Firms do not offer meritocracy. Your reward for making it is more work and turning into very people you hate to work for. Can loyalty be owed and expected to such organizations?

33. Posted by Wayne Isaacks - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 29 minutes ago

    It’s all in the above comments - the attitide divide is clear. My own take as a small firm is it is very hard to find an associate whose fundamental goal is ian easy place to pick up a big paycheck. My challenge to associates has been: “Don’t let me find myself working harder on your project than you do.“ I keep finding that as associates drop reposnibility, accept “good enough” (not), shortcut most challenging situations, and seem immunre to developing robust judgment from thier expeirience. Lifestyle entitlement is the norm.  I know this profile does not apply to “all” new assiciates. but, I’d dearly like hire one it doesn’r fit. Associates - you cannot hope to get more out of your career than you put into it. It is hard. If it weren’t, anybody could do it. Clearly there are many who can’t or won’t. So, for those who can and will - there is very little real competition.

34. Posted by em dubya - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 28 minutes ago

    wow!  plenty of martyrs and non-proofreaders here.  i could tell my story of sacrifice and effort and everything else, but instead i will simply say that i conciously decided to take an in-house job in order to have balance in my life.  so what if i don’t earn the theoretical maximum income in my market?  i’m neither a slave to my profession nor to the idea that i ought to be.  too much ego and not enogh critical thinking going on if you ask me.

35. Posted by Sensible Lawyer - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 26 minutes ago

    Boo… hooo… hooo.  Feel bad for me, I am 25 years old and only earn $160,000 per year.  God bless The Pontificator… that person is dead on.  I think that it is hillarious that someone that is immediately in the top 1% of wage earners is crying.  If you want to work at a firm that allows you to bill 1,200 hours per year, open your own.  If you want to work at a good firm, get up for work at 3:00 a.m. like me and my colleages do. 

    And concerning Sheesh who seems to refuse to work late… I predict that they will be in a third tier 5 person law firm quite soon.  Law is a demanding profession with non-movable deadlines… that is why you get paid so well.  If you can’t take the pressure, get a job at Denny’s.

    “$160,000 per year buys the same standard of living that the old guys enjoyed when they were hired.  If it is slightly more, it’s because the firms no longer provide job security.  That’s the trade off.“  Boo Hoo Hoo

36. Posted by A Concerned Partner - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 22 minutes ago

    For what it is worth, I have never seen where true loyalty is based on money.  At least in the work environment, I believe that loyaltry is based on things such as being treated like a valued colleague, being given meaningful work assignments, and having reasonable opportunities for advancement.  Moreover, you’ll find loyalty within a business where you find principled leadership. 

    In my opinion, it is the latter that is sorely missing in large firms.  Perhaps ironically, we’ve given in to the Enron mindset, in which billing hours and collecting fees (i.e., making profits), is the only priority.  Obviously, law firms are businesses and billing hours and collecting fees must be a priority, even the first priority.  However, I’m concerned that character in profession, business leadership, and a sense of proportion have been all but lost in today’s large law firms.  If you want loyalty from associates, and associates who are engaged and concerned about becoming good lawyers (not just profitable ones), I think you have to remember those attributes.

37. Posted by Lady Luck - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 21 minutes ago

    I have not debt. I love the work. I survived the hazing (it is hazing). I learned to learn from CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Recognizing that most firms spend no time on teaching people how to manage people I have learned to ignore a lot of management shortcomings. I hate the hours. I could well afford a paycut in exchange for reduced hours, but that is non-negotiable. “Now happy solo” understands the problem best. Simple GREED, they need my hours to take that bigger cut. May the billable hour model die soon.

38. Posted by AttyElizabeth - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 20 minutes ago

    I think low retention rates have a lot to do with how the Gen-Y individuals were raised, what we expect, what we live with, and what we won’t tolerate.  My experience with firms of all sizes was that they are dishonest about billable requirements, partnership tracks (and even the likelihood of ever being a partner), work-life balances, mentorships, bonuses, and the biggie: FIRM CULTURE.  No one wants to work in a back-stabbing, high stress “good old boy” firm, except of course the aging baby boomers and their tossed aside house wives (and the occasional house husband) who never held a job outside of the home.  Of course that generation does not understand work-life balances, because they have someone at home to clean up after them and manage their life.  No, I don’t want to hear about your country club and I won’t help you pick out flowers to send to your wife after you messed up again.  The interviewees are middle aged about-to-make or just-made partners who will say anything to lure recruits to their firm.  Why should we be loyal to a firm that lies and manipulates?  We clearly have options, other firms will sweet talk us away and we’ll keep doing that until we find someplace we can tolerate or switch to a different field.  Practicing law is not a great mystery, once we have a year or two of experience we can pretty much go anywhere, including out on our own as a solo.  We don’t really have “legal unions” or anything like that, and I’m so happy to see that we are using our feet to just walk away from the problems at large firms.  We don’t have to stick it out, we did not create the problems.

39. Posted by Sheesh! - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 20 minutes ago

    Sensible Lawyer - Yesterday I arrived at work at 6am, went to a teacher conference at 4:30 ate dinner with my kids and put them to bed, worked from 8pm to 12am, and was back at work at 4:30 this morning.  Typical day.  I work hard for clients and for partners that treat me with respect.  I don’t work hard for Pontificator, or for you.

40. Posted by Prosecutor - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 19 minutes ago

    Well said, new associate #2 and Old Partner!  Now THAT’s constructive feedback!  In a sense, though, so was the Pontificator’s because it shows us where some of these guys are coming from.  I did the fancy firm thing and traded it for work as an A.D.A.  Know what?  I love it!  Yes, I’m broke, but I’m happy in my work and get respect and affirmation from colleagues on both sides of the fence (...and I’m sorry, but going to a deposition isn’t the same as trying a case).  This was a far cry from the abusive B.S. I got at a fancy firm, and I will never, ever go back.

41. Posted by Lady Law - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 17 minutes ago

    Sheesh!  Actually, I am too. 

    You and LawyerMom understand what many women lawyers are trying to balance.  Family truly is most important, but we do love our work and are willing to sacrifice for it - without whining.

    It is just difficult to find a law firm that understands that people are first, then money.  It takes money to stay in business, of course, but it is true that many are willing to accept less.  There are so many ways to work it out -  project based income, a decent salary prorated for part-time, etc. 

    It is fantastic to brainstorm and be creative side by side with the people who work with you.  Everyone enjoys it more AND does a better job for the clients. 

    The clients know that they can reach you at home when you are in the shower at 6:30 a.m. or on your cell at midnight if it is urgent. 

    Why do they have that confidence?  Because they know that you value them as people.  As a result,  they are more loyal.  What does that do?  It creates repeat business and happy lawyers and staff. 

    I don’t see how it is a problem and why more firms don’t see it instead of just dollars and cents.

42. Posted by Sensible Lawyer - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 14 minutes ago

    Sheesh!  Well that is good… I don’t hire people that work in their PJs!

43. Posted by HamzLaw - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 12 minutes ago

    Law is one of few businesses where everyone in production is rewarded not necessarily for producing work, but for producing sales.  In law these days, everyone is a salesman and not enough are practitioners.  Moreover, it is indeed a sweatshop profession wedded to the almighty hour instead of being a real business where risk is rewarded amply.  I’ve been a lawyer for over 30 years, and I hope all generations can see what the law business really is: mismanaged.  And remember, there are good young lawyers everywhere.  If a firm just wants to pad its resume with name schools, it will get what it asks for—more whiners than perhaps it needs.  All firms need a balance, not just privileged new hires, some of whom will be superstars, some whiners—regardless of where they come from.  I’d like to see the younger generation change the profession.  It could use a shake up, instead of just shaking down everyone else from associates to clients.

44. Posted by jdjd - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 6 minutes ago

    Research shows that a giant misunderstanding exists between the generations.  Most associates value their time and family more than money and would gladly take less pay (to a point) for more free time.  Partners (ie: the older generations) view this as being lazy when it is really just a difference in priorities.  It is not helped by the fact that many of us younger generations had parents who are boomer workaholics and do not want things to be the same for our own children.  Our difference in priorities threatens boomers who have convinced themselves that sacraficing everything for their jobs was worth it.

45. Posted by Lisa - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 5 minutes ago

    the salary isn’t really the point.  its about work/life balance, some control over scheduling, setting REALISTIC project deadlines, and the ability to choose clients/projects. Lack of general managerial skills is a big one too; i tried to take a SUNDAY off to move apts, and the response i got to “but i’m moving on sunday” was “oh, so that means you are unavailable to work?“ wtf, my life is in a box!

    $160,000 a year or $1M a year—if i never leave the office to be able to spend it, what’s the point?

46. Posted by Lisa - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 2 minutes ago

    note: i now work for myself with 2 partners; i work as much if not moreso than at a well-known mid-sized structured finance boutique firm, but i’m 1000% happier

47. Posted by for real - 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days ago

    For the love of god look at all these comments! Apparently you kids aren’t THAT busy…

48. Posted by AttyElizabeth - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 55 minutes ago

    No, we are not that busy, because most of those posting have probably already moved jobs at least once.  I now work in a state job and if one of my supervisors came in and saw me reading a professional development site, they would be happy.  If I still worked at a law firm, I would probably be reprimanded.

49. Posted by HamzLaw - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 53 minutes ago

    Well, “for the love of humanity,“ my above colleague should HEAR what is being said, not just read the words.  I’ve been in law for 31 years and I have time to CARE.  What about you?

50. Posted by Just a Thought - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 52 minutes ago

    So many people on both sides of the attitude split whining about what’s right, legitimate, or acceptible. All of that is basically irrelevant. This is a business problem people.

    Now, I don’t know the real deal, but a number of articles indicate that law firms are losing more people than they want to be losing. If that’s true, then they have to change the way the operate to *keep* those people. For the past two years, they’ve tried pay raises. Seems like they aren’t working. So, they’ll need to try something else or try more pay raises. Whining about how ‘entitled’ the new associates are is not going to change the fact that those associates are leavnig the firms. If they are ‘entitled’, so be it - if you want to keep them, meet their needs. If you don’t want to keep them, then all this doesn’t matter, and the article is pointless. I don’t know which is really true, but it seems to me to be a fairly simple equation.

    Associates who don’t like what law firms are offering have a simple choice - put up with it or leave. Firms have a similar choice - put up with associates leaving or change. This is the way capitalism works people.

    If a firm insists on requiring 2400 billables, cancelling vacations all the time, and associates never seeing their children, and there are enough people that are willing to work that way - market works. If there are not enough people willing to work that way - tough cookies. Figure it out - deal with fewer people, or change your requirements.

51. Posted by Lady Law - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 47 minutes ago

    Lisa.  I agree with you and Sheesh!  Sensible lawyer -  I work in PJs a lot in the mornings, and go to the office in a suit in the afternoons.  I prefer the pjs and will work as much as needed.  Through good times and terrible economy, we have fun at my firm, and are definitely all 1000% happier.  By the way, I’m not a boomer, I’m almost 55.  I guess I don’t fit in the box.  I love my work, and I really like to get paid, but it does not require ALL my time, just my ALL in everything I do.

    So - back to work.

52. Posted by jake - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 45 minutes ago

    For those who hate the BigLaw way of doing things, If you don’t like it move out of the way because I can gaurantee that there is a new attorney out there who would love to take your spot.
    You top of your class, “top” tier lawyers have no idea what the real profession is. I say that respectfully, but you apparently don’t see that everyone is not as fortunate as you. Jobs don’t fall in everyone’s laps, everyone does not make nearly that much money a year, not everyone gets the experience and connections that you make. 
    This is not a oh poor me speech, but rather this is to show you new big time associates that you need to take advantage of these time. Hate it, but do it and learn from it, so you don’t operate your practice like that.  Whether you like it or not, there are plenty of new associates out there who would love the opportunities you have.  Try dealing with the same loans from private law school and no job, forget your job.

53. Posted by Boo Hoo Hoo - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 44 minutes ago

    People hate lawyers because high-profile lawyer’s priorities are so divergent from those of most of society. I summer’ed at a big firm last summer.  Most of us received offers to return as associates.  The summers who accepted offers to return (and I am thrilled to say I rejected the offer) are vanilla and shallow (not unlike the firm’s associates and partners), or deep in debt.  Why?  Because, frankly, the only kind of person who likes money so much that money could make him happy to devote his entire life to filing a cat-food maker’s motions, or closing transactions between cat food makers A and B (and billing 2,000 hours/year requires such devotion) is vanilla and shallow.  The lawyer’s whose priorities intersect with most of society’s—spending time with their families, reading books, having hobbies—don’t work for big law at all, or certainly not a day longer than it takes them to pay off their debts.

54. Posted by Frustrated - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 42 minutes ago

    For all you partners out there whining about new associates - have you considered even interviewing non-traditional students at OCI? I’m graduating from a top 50 law school in the top 20%, Law Review etc. and I have 15 years corporate finance experience where I worked my tail off. Not only do I have a proven academic record but also the proven ability to work hard [yes that means long hours sometimes], excellent recommendations and I successfully generated new clients. How come I can’t even get an interview?

55. Posted by LadyEsquire - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 40 minutes ago

    I’m not stayin round these parts after I put in my year.  Its PEACE OUT in 8 months!

56. Posted by attymom - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 37 minutes ago

    I am simply amazed by some of these comments.  Life, both personal and professional, is all about balance and trade-offs.  My husband and I are both attorneys and have 6 kids.  We work in mid-sized law firms in a mid-sized city, making a mid-sized income.  Both of us have the freedom and the flexibility to attend soccer games and play performances and both of us work VERY HARD at our jobs.  We chose this career path, not because we did not want to work hard, but because we wanted to have a life outside of our office and with our children.  Our jobs are demanding, we don’t always get the pat on the back that we’d like, but then again, that’s not why either of us went into the practice of law.  I think the real shift in firm mentality happened as more women became lawyers (and now more women are students in law schools than men).  Women are no longer willing to work full time at demanding profession without the necessary partnership at home from their spouse, and men are realizing that they, too, want to have lives outside the office and with their children.  Thirty years ago, a man could work 12 hours a day plus 6 on Saturday.  His wife took care of everything else.  My husband can’t put in those hours and neither can I.  Because both parents must work, neither can afford to put in 80+ hour weeks, and if you can’t put in 80+ hours weeks, you can’t expect to command the high salary some seem to think they deserve simply by having JD after their name.  My husband’s father, also an attorney at a big firm, still works on Saturdays and expects all of his associates to do the same.  The big firm pays the price (i.e. big salary) and so does the associate (i.e. no family life).  One simply must decide the sort of balance he/she wants to strike in life and follow that path.

57. Posted by FromITtoLaw - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 35 minutes ago

    All this “Gen X vs. Gen Y vs. Boomers vs. milllennials” is a load of hogwash. “Laziness,“ “workaholism,“ “loyalty,“ etc., etc., etc., have nothing to do with these facile labels. Employees, in ANY profession, of ANY age, who perceive the reality that their employers are not loyal to them will not be loyal to their employers, unless they (the employees) are insane.

    And what’s this deal with never using caps in on-line message boards (c.f., Lisa’s and new associate #2’s posts)? I see it everywhere. Next thing you know, someone will bust out “You been pwn’d!“

58. Posted by IP Guy - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 34 minutes ago

    [0033]  You know, when I worked at arguably the premier IP boutique in the country, there were a lot of people that couldn’t cut it and got fired.  And you know what, they all are running around telling the same story.  The firm was horrible, that they quit out of protest, and that the firm offered them big raises to stay… but they stuck to their principles and left.  So the ones that couldn’t cut it… got fired… and now they make up stories of quitting based on principal.  I think that we are seeing a lot of that right now.

59. Posted by Debt Laden Late 20's Male with vlaues at a 50 Atty - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 24 minutes ago

    Billable hour must die.  Respect for all, all the time, instead of only for seniority and performance.  Coach the young into a better practice in stead of condemning.  Live well, laugh hard, make for good company, take risks, work with values.  Forget about money, it comes when you are happy and experienced.  Don’t use associates to line your pockets.  Make them your personal friends.

60. Posted by Another Prosecutor - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 24 minutes ago

    One thing that really jumps out to me (someone who knew he didn’t want to choose the big firm/big money but wanted real experience and a great life instead) is that the big law firms suffer from an image problem.  This problem, though, is of their own making.  They need to be completely up front about the life of new associates and then realistic in working with those new associates.  For example:

    “Welcome to the firm.  A lot of the things you are going to do here suck.  It is part of the reason that we pay you so much.  But, these things have to be done (only if true).  We will try to give you a variety of experiences (only if true) and in a couple years you will have a ton of dough and some valuable experience.  If you then want to continue with the firm, your experiences will continue to grow, you will continue to make a ton of dough, and you will continue to work your ass off.  Again, welcome to the firm and here is your plane ticket to a warehouse full of documents in Alabama for the month of August.“

    Such an approach would be honest and create realistic expectations on both parties.  Loyalty would not be any higher, obviously, but everyone would stop complaining about it.

61. Posted by Boo Hoo Hoo - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 24 minutes ago

    To IP Guy: What we’re seeing isn’t people “make up stories of quitting.“  What we’re seeing, rather, is people who have devoted their entire lives to closing cat food transactions trying to validate their own lives by (1) categorizing those who have opened their eyes and left as “quitters,“ and (2) classifying themselves as the ones who can “cut it.“  Success isn’t about being able to “cut it.“  Success is fullfillment.  If making tons of money gives you fulfillment, more power to you.  I, for one, don’t like the fact that people who define “fulfillment” in that way have hijacked the profession of Jefferson and Cardozo.

62. Posted by The Managing Partner - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 18 minutes ago

    Why are our associates not running away, and stay?
    Some do’s and don’ts.
    1. Give proper feedback. Recognition is more important than money. And if it wasn’t up to it, show them what needs to be better.
    2. Show respect. You expect others to respect you - then you’d better respect them.
    3. Manage your client. Clients come first, yes, but this does not mean we should accept nonsensical requirements (deadlines in particular).
    4. Let the associate close to the fire. If they are in the middle of the action, and have responsibility, they may get addicted and see the need to put in the extra hours.
    5. Don’t think you can chase associates around only because you have made it up the ladder.
    6. Don’t load associates with work just for the heck of it - that is simply insane. Someone who acts that way should see a shrink.
    7. Don’t lie about expectations. Tell people where they are, and whether they can make it.
    8. Don’t tolerate jerks. 

    Legal business is a tough business. Clients become more demanding, as we become more professional and charge higher fees. Wanting the top quality work in the deals that make the front page and life-work-balance are extremely hard to reconcile. Bear that in mind - high pay is compensation for that fact. You cannot have it all.

63. Posted by LawStudentLogic - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 17 minutes ago

    It’s not hard to see why new associates are leaving despite even higher pay; it’s the higher pay that leads to the higher rates of attrition.  Students who may not have been willing to sell their souls for $100K certainly will for $160K+—for a couple of years.  The lawyers who don’t mind the trade-off of money-for-life will stay on, but those lured in solely by the money will leave as soon as their debts are paid off or when they realize that’s it’s been two years and they forgot what their kids look like.

64. Posted by Old Timer - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 56 minutes ago

    To the young folks:  do what you must to pay off debt.  Listen to the part of you that knows no amount of money is a path to happiness and quality of life.  I went on my own, survived, thrived, raised kids who do just fine now, stayed happily married, retired from litigation, started another kind of practice.  I have financial security, my kids had college paid for, and I’m a healthy human being.  For those with the guts, go on your own and practice law the way you want and the way you can love.  Otherwise, it can be very empty and oppressive.  How do you want your life to be?

65. Posted by NonTraditional2L - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago

    Hardly a day goes by that I don’t read something on these forums that reinforces my decision to open my own firm after graduation.  I may not make $160k my first year, but I will make much more than that a few years from now and I will still have a good quality of life along the way.

    The only hope this generation of law students have at improving the legal workplace is to reject the current model altogether.

    As for Pontificator’s comments… you are obviously an idiot if you really think abusing your associates is going to improve their performance.  I built a very successful business before I ever came to law school and I can tell you from experience, employee satisfaction is key to success.  I feel sorry for your fellow partners who are losing money because of your stupidity. 

    Any recently minted attorney that has a boss like Pontificator should walk out the door immediately and not look back.  Life’s too short to tolerate that kind of abuse.

66. Posted by El Tigre - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 32 minutes ago

    The generational divide in these comments is fascinating.  My question is what were the billing requirements and professional standards when the “older” generation was starting their career?  1500, 1600 hours a year?  Maybe if you went all the way to 1900 you really distinguished yourself?  I think it is clear the profession has changed and I think a big part of it is this “older” generation getting greedy and asking a heck of a lot more from lower headcount to increase profits.  Not to mention a complete breakdown of the mentor system (not one young associate I know has what could even remotely be termed a mentor).  The system will deteriorate enough to change, the question is when.

67. Posted by Hardworking Recent Grad - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours ago

    I noticed the comment about the “whiny new associates from ‘top’ tier law schools”.  If there is such a problem with the work ethic of these people, it might serve his law firm consider resumes that don’t include arbitrarily picked top tier schools and inflated GPA’s.  Class rank, internships, and extra-curriculars are a better indication of work ethic.  Unfortunately, many of the big law firms could care less.  If your associates are slackers, your hiring policy might have brought it upon yourself.

68. Posted by Alcindoro - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 57 minutes ago

    IT must be understood that firms have business models. The more altruistic are akin to that described by Lady Law herein. More common is that where a certain amount of product of an acceptable quality is provided at a certain price, whatever that be. A BigLaw firm is no different in that respect from the most notorious defense mill. It is not about the associates; it is about the prosperity of the owners.

69. Posted by bigmix - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 38 minutes ago

    Maybe all these old timers need to spend less time projecting their frustration with their own life choices and spoiled children’s lack of work ethic onto their associates, and more time fostering a work atmosphere aimed at preventing the similar destruction of the associates’ and their families’ lives.

    Then again, having opted out of the BigLaw world, maybe I’m getting it wrong…

70. Posted by In-House - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 5 minutes ago

    The following is a critical point:  At the end of the day, for lawyers (at least in this country), this is the BUSINESS of law before it is the practice of law.  (And before you purists/newbies jump out of your chairs, remember that you’re in a capitalist economy, and not in a communist society.)  While typically partners bring in business/work that they and their associates can perform, smart businesses know that any one person can attract clients, and that a businesses’ reputation can attract clients.  Some major components of reputation include quality of work, quality of service, cost, reliability and stability.
    If I, as a client, know that in the course of a year, my work will be bounced around to several attorneys because each one ultimately leaves that law firm, I will probably not deal with that firm.  (Note to BigW – if you can’t maintain competent associates to support you, you will quickly lose clients.  So draw that ego back a bit.)  Similarly, if I know that “billing pressures” will cause my attorney to either rush through my work, or conversely, churn it, I’m gone, and so is my attorney’s reputation.  The lawyer to whom I would give work is one who likes what he (or she) does, likes who he works for/with, is good at what he does, and is not overpriced.  So the law firm that wants my work has to have such people and working conditions.
    Senior partners often do get a high profit margin from their law firms, but to be competitive, maintain longevity, and retain “happy talent”, they must consider decreasing their profit ratio in favor of hopefully increasing business volume through attracting and maintaining quality lawyers and consequently, clients.

71. Posted by E - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours ago

    No law firm is going to keep an associate because they were a loyal employee - and no associate is going to stay in a firm out of a sense of obligation.  That value has become meaningless in our society, if it ever had any meaning to begin with.  For this to change, there would have to be a huge shift in American values (the real ones, not the lip service).  Cash is king, whether we think that is regrettable or not.

72. Posted by Handbanana - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 37 minutes ago

    I get so tired of hearing about these fancypants big firm lawyers.  Though there are many of them, they do not represent the majority of the legal profession.  If you really want to hear about unhappy associates, go talk to associates at ordinary insurance defense law firms, where unless you are a partner you likely earn sub-six figures, will be terminated for little or no reason, have incomplete benefits, and work just as long if not longer hours.  So some Ivy League puke with rich parents and a fancy framed degree got upset because he wasn’t given a slice of equity quick enough - go cry me a river.

73. Posted by The Pontificator - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 35 minutes ago

    NonTraditional2L says: Any recently minted attorney that has a boss like Pontificator should walk out the door immediately and not look back.  Life’s too short to tolerate that kind of abuse.

    That’s fine… I have a stack of resumes and lots of clients.  And good luck getting clients on your own right out of law school… that will be fun.

74. Posted by LawGdes - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 27 minutes ago

    I agree with “Another Prosecutor”.  Put the cards on the table.  Neither side is wrong.  It depends on your motivation.  The older generation “lived for work” - the younger gen. “work to live” .  I personally can not understand anyone working more than a couple yrs at a big firm.  Yes, law is demanding - but take on less cases or hire more associates.  Expecting anyone to work late or one weekends on a regular basis is, in my opinion, expecting too much. That said, if I sold my soul for the almighty dollar then I have no reason to complain - I should know that this is what is expected of me - and do it with a smile.

75. Posted by Ivy Associate - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours ago

    Jeez, so much hatred of the Ivy Leaguers. I went to HLS, clerked, and am now a second-year associate at a big firm. I took out six-figures in student loans to pay my own way through law school (and am now repaying them from my $160K plus salary.) I’m not whining, unhappy, or miserable in biglaw. I came in with open eyes, and so long as the work-life balance works for me, I intend to stay. As and when it does not, there will be other options out there. I have no issue with working some weekends, with working late into the night, etc. - all I hope for is (mostly) challenging work and to be treated with respect as a colleague by my fellow associates and partners. The one thing I really dislike about biglaw (and it didn’t come as a surprise) is the unpredictability of hours. So, if the hours become too unpredictable or the work isn’t adequately challenging, then it becomes decisionmaking time. I don’t understand what the big deal for my fellow associates is: if you’re happy (enough), stay, and if not, vote with your feet. Be loyal to YOURSELF and your goals, and do good work whether in biglaw or elsewhere. And quit making us look like “whiny, overpaid brats.“ We may be overpaid, but let’s lose the “whiny brat” part.

76. Posted by rjp - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 56 minutes ago

    I’m one of the “old timers”
    You whining youngsters looking for a free and easy lifestyle should shut the hell up and get some work done or find another career.

77. Posted by Nike - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 30 minutes ago

    Just do it.  For crying out loud!  And most of you are.  This is a profession.  As T. Hanks’ character said it:  “There’s no crying in baseball”—- so too, should there be none in the law.  If you don’t like where you are, fix it or move on.  If you work with idiots like the Pontificator—- your choice-stay or leave, but don’t cry about it.  This is a great adventure, the law, so find a way to enjoy it, to make a living you can abide, and don’t look back. 

    In REAL life, we don’t eat at a trough.  You eat what you kill.  That’s the market and the way it is.  So grow up, be professional and remember:  Pigs get fat.  Hogs get slaughtered.

78. Posted by OldToad - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 28 minutes ago

    I became an attorney at age 51(honors from a tier 2 school while working full time).  I have the “old timer” work ethic but law firms didn’t know what to do with someone like me.  If you pursue youth,  you find crybabies.

79. Posted by Lost in Space - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 24 minutes ago

    I’m a successful mid-level at a large international firm writing this from a client site where I have been based for the past six months.  I work insane hours, barely see my family, travel constantly, and love what I do.  What’s more, I maxed out my firm’s bonus structure last month - and am therefore finishing the year “working for free”.  You can’t buy this kind of loyalty. 

    There are a few things my firm really does right:

    1. Personal Responsibility - I am given nearly full control over my projects, my client relationships, and my schedule.  As a result, I feel personally invested in the outcome of my work, and in the overall success of my firm’s clients.

    2. Choice of Practice - I do good work, so I continue to get assignments that are interesting and fulfilling.  As a result, I love my practice and truly enjoy what I do, and am excited about the practice I am building. 

    3. Client Contact - I have rich and fulfilling relationships with clients, to the point that most of my assignments come directly from clients - many of whom have made me repeated offers of in-house employment.

    4. Interaction with Colleagues/Entrepreneurial Spirit - My firm has structured its operations and firm culture to foster the sharing of work between different attorneys in a way I have not seen in any other firm.  As a result, there is an entrepreneurial spirit to the firm and the relationships with colleagues in the firm that I truly enjoy and from which I derive a tangible benefit. 

    Some things my firm really needs to fix

    1. Examples - I am working the way I am right now because I am building experience, establishing myself as an attorney, and generally putting in my dues.  But I have no interest in maintaining this pace over the long term.  I need a light at the end of the tunnel - something to work towards.  I need examples of people who are valued members of the firm, but who have active family lives, who are active in the religious and social community, and who are balanced, organized, and happy.  Those people need to be put front and center within the firm.  The firm needs to “hide” the cadre of overworked, overtraveled, overburdened, overstressed, and otherwise unhealthy partners.  I will ultimately leave my firm because I haven’t found anyone that I want to be when I “grow up”. 

    2. Leadership - My firm needs to understand that just because someone generates revenue doesn’t mean they know how to lead.  Leadership is more inspiration than organization.  People will stick with good leaders even when a lot of other secondary factors (schedules, salaries, quality of work, etc.) are less than optimal

    3. Education of Expectations - I don’t see the disconnect between successful associates and partners as “generational”.  My view is that the differences in expectations between partners and successful associates comes from the fact that the legal market is far more of a “free market” than it used to be.  As a result, law firms need to stop thinking about their successful associates as “lucky to have their jobs” and start thinking of the law firm as “lucky to have its (successful) associates”.  I like what was said above - treat people like you want them to stay and they will stay.  Nothing is less attractive about my current employer than its general ambivalence to the stresses and strains they are putting on all facets of my life right now.

    4. Structure - Firms need to change the way they organize reporting and responsibilities away from the hierarchical approach, and adopt a more “peer to peer” approach.  We (partners and associates) are here to serve the common interest of the firm - the provision of service to the client.  Partners need to recognize - at least with mid- to senior level associates - that we are members of the same team and peer-“servants” to the demands of the client.  If “no man can serve two masters”, then I can’t be the servant of both the partner and the client at the same time.  Nothing is worse than a prima donna partner who demands that all other client commitments be dropped to meet their needs (which may or may not be consistent with the needs of the client).

    5. Vision - Please think bigger than the money/time dynamic.  Ultimately, that’s a zero sum game.  I want the promise of a rich, rewarding, and full life far more than I want the money.  But at the same time, if you force me into that money/time dynamic, I’m going to behave like any other profit-maximizing market participant and make sure I get my share.  But ultimately, that doesn’t motivate me for the long term, and I will have to move on.  I like what I do.  Most of my fellow associates like what they do.  Give us better reasons to keep doing it with you - because the mere prospect of a bigger pie is not enough of a reward for continuing this pie-eating contest.

80. Posted by Old Whippersnapper - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 11 minutes ago

    To all the self-proclaimed old-timers instructing the young whiners to get some work done: shouldn’t you all be doing something productive and billable, rather than hanging out in a comment-forum? Time is money…and if your professional workproduct is as creative as your commentary, I assume your billing rates aren’t very impressive. I’m a little unnerved that any of you are here, frankly, anonymously flexing your big-time egos and congratulating yourselves on the stack of resumes and the depth of your books of business. If you’ve done so well for yourselves, shouldn’t you be out enjoying your life?

    To all the young associates whining about the onerous cost of school, the challenges of 2200 hour billable reqs, the “impossible” work/life balance, and the pyramid scheme that is the law firm compensation structure: just admit that you know you’re overpaid for what you do/bring to the firm, and that you’re unwilling to accept the trade-off in lifestyle and prestige that would come from voting with your feet and finding something you enjoy to do. You knew what you were getting into, and you know you could get out.

    To the wise folks who remark on the tradeoffs required of a learned profession: just don’t gloat too much. Who are you trying to convince? The readers—or yourselves?

81. Posted by Big Firm Refugee - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 8 minutes ago

    The truth here lies somewhere in the middle.  It’s disengenuous for old school partners to point the finger at “greedy associates” as the cause for escalating billing rates and clients who are furious with their bills.  While big firm associate salaries have clearly increased over the past ten years, profits per partner have increased at a much faster rate during that same period.  So let’s not get carried away with the “when I was an associate, I walked 10 miles to the firm in the snow” routine.  The partners with whom you were working back in the day would look at your annual comp these days and tell you exactly the same thing about their days as partners.

    That said, it’s equally unconvincing for big firm associates to point to their financial “contribution” (number of hours billed times billing rate) as a legitimate measuring stick for their worth.  If your firm is paying you $160,000, your actual cost to the firm (salary, benefits, overhead) is probably in the $250,000 range.  If, as a first year lawyer, you really believe that you could generate more than $250,000 of your own work, then you should set up shop on your own.  The truth is that, as a freshly minted law school graduate, you’re overpaid at $160,000.  How hard you worked in law school and the extent to which you’re indebted as a result doesn’t change the economic reality that you’re overpaid.

    On the financial front, rather than partners pointing the finger at associates and vice versa, isn’t it time that we all look ourselves in the mirror and face the truth?  The truth is that hourly rates—particularly at the mega-firm level—are way too high across the board, at the associate and partner level alike.  And it’s only a matter of time before clients get fed up with it and realize that they can find better, more efficient service somewhere else.  By engaging in this endless finger-pointing, you’re all whistling past the graveyard.

    Maybe the quality of both of your lives would be increased if less attention were paid to this never-ending quest to have the highest profits per partner, or to squeeze out an extra ten grand a year as an associate.  It may sound revolutionary, but try instead to find professional satisfaction from a collegial and cooperative workplace, where people feel that they’re part of an institution that actually stands for something beyond who can scrape an extra dollar out of whose pocket.  Find it from building lasting and trusting relationships with clients who might actually come to view you as something more than the person with whom they have to argue the bill every month.  Find it from working hard for the sake of something more than what the AmLaw 200 statistics are going to say.

82. Posted by Judicial Clerk - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 53 minutes ago

    I think Pontificator is just yanking our chain.  No one can be that big of an a$*, can they?

83. Posted by Kc Partner - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 27 minutes ago

    There are great firms with short terms to partnership (i.e. 5yrs) with partner/associate ratios of 5/1 (yes, partner/associate not the other way around) and that understand individual work/life balance decisions.  You just need to look.  Try mid-sized firms in middle America, like KC.  We don’t pay $160,000, but a 1 room apt doesn’t cost $3-4K/mo—think 4br house with a big yard.  And we are hiring.

84. Posted by Nickolai - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 10 minutes ago

    I scanned a couple of the initial posts and have just one comment.  Why aren’t all of you working right now?

85. Posted by Hopeful 1L - 1 year, 3 weeks, 1 day, 12 hours, 36 minutes ago

    As a 1L, we’ve been inundated with endless talk about how the law is “supposed” to work.  We also saw the 2Ls and 3Ls, during orientation and the first week of class, already “competing” in the OCI contest, practically screaming “Pick me!“ to BigLaw with looks of desperation.  Needless to say, the seeming inconsistency between the descriptions of the “practice” of law and the “business” of law are somewhat prevalent.  I think the economic productivity and improvements that have dramatically increased have, like has been argued above, resulted in the search for high-paying jobs.  I don’t stand on some ivory tower; I know that I’ll probably have to do the same thing for the next few years and also when I leave school.  LRAP is a great program and I support it and hope it expands dramatically to aid public sector jobs, but a lot of us have already done the calculations and realized that working in the public sector isn’t viable right now. 

    I’ll be honest: I go to a Top 20 law school and practically every single person in my class strikes me as naive and, for the most part, seem to not have worked a day in their life.  By work, I’m referring to taking a job that isn’t the most cushy because that’s what you have to do (or working at all for some of them).  I’m only 23 but I’ve tried dedicating my life to things that matter to me: I’ve tutored extensively for 5 years, but I’ve also spent my summers working construction side-by-side with my dad (and I actually worked, because that was what was expected of me).  I think one major flaw in the “business” of law, as it has been illustrated not only by the comments above, but what we’ve been taught by experience, is not necessarily the “Great Divide” in the generations (which, I agree, is probably due to different value structures), but due to the lack of passion.  I’ve met a lot of upper-level students that came to law school for the potential salary and have no idea what they even came for or an idea of what they want to do/what they are passionate for.  I’ll admit that I also arrived with visions of six-figure salaries and bonus packages, but if that’s not what I end up earning because I end up loving public interest law or decide to go work for a district attorney, so be it.  I think that people just need to lose the view of “money over all else,“ unless that truly is what you are working for.

    As applications for summer associateships come close to opening, I’m looking for a firm that will provide me with a mentor, not to pat me on the back or console me if I make a mistake, but instead teach me how to remedy those mistakes and become a better associate and a better investment.  If doing extra studying of legal writing will make me a better student/summer/associate, I will (and currently) do it.  If I have to stay in school an extra year to get a graduate degree so I have the ability to practice IP law, I will (and am) because it stimulates me and also to increase my potential and possibilities.  My family has never valued much other than hard work; my dad has worked construction since he was 17 and still does it (as a contractor who still works 10 hour days six days a week in the Phoenix sun) now at 63 because he loves it.  He taught me what I think a lot of these “old timer” partners have talked about: stoicism.  My dad did whatever he had to do if he was told to do it, but he never sacrificed his self-worth or principles for it; he’d be the first person to tell you that you were wrong and why.

    I want a good job and to make partner in less than ten years through hard work and dedication, but those are ideals of a first-year; I don’t know what to expect and, through that, probably don’t have much in terms of expectations.  For every person that says corporate/IP/any type of law is great and they love it, you’ll probably find another that hates it, and both for valid reasons.  Call me naive, immature, or idealist, but I am looking to work and be valued for it in a way commensurate with my product and diligence.  If any of you associates or partners are looking for that, feel free to let me know; a summer associate program that will educate and stimulate me is my only goal.  I hope it’s the same for the vast majority of us, not just the money.

86. Posted by Shanika - 1 year, 3 weeks, 21 hours, 2 minutes ago

    I spotted the Pontificator’s grammar issue immediately. However, being and aspiring associate, I thought he may also have the authority to specify rules of grammar just like he can specify the lifestyles of new associates. Still, I ended up taking his side on the issue of new associate billable hours based on what the new doctors have to go through when they become interns, and they get paid much less than new attorneys; they have equal or higher amount of debt as associates, and their studies are harder than ours (presumably…). So, I would say, one should work 2000 or more hours for the first 3 years or so and then should be able to scale back in order to enjoy life, have kids, start hobbies, lose weight, or whatever they want to do.

87. Posted by Here Here - 1 year, 3 weeks, 20 hours, 42 minutes ago

    1. No associate is overpaid if he brings in at least $0.01 more than he is paid.

    2. We’re here because we care, and we manage our time well enough to afford ourselves a few minutes to interact (albeit digitally) with the reality happening outside of our offices.  I can read all these comments, write my own, and still have a productive day for my firm.  Anyone who wonders “why we’re not working” is one of those brainwashed types who thinks we all need to be on the clock all the time.

    3. Any older partner who pushes down a younger associate is just frustrated and taking it out on what he/she hopes will be a shrinking violet.  Don’t be.  Tell the partner to *^&$@#$ off.  Stand up for yourself and your comrades.  Associates are powerful, smart people who do great things for law and for their businesses.  We all need to remember our power in numbers and stand with each other on this.  No scabs.  Partners only inflict misery on associates because they themselves caught that flak and now feel like the only way to offset it is to dish it back out.  Sink the cycle, down with those partners.  Brighter days are up ahead with the new generation.

    4. Stack of resumes?  You’re not paying attention to me if you’re shuffling a stack of resumes.  I am the best there is.  If you think I’m replaceable, you are as evil as you are stupid.  Watch that you partners with that attitude don’t bypass the revolutionary types that will go on to change the face of law for another firm or for his/her own firm.  And for those that may not have that much inherently, they can always be taken there with guidance and coaching.  Coach an associate to success, like his/her father/mother would, instead of raining misery down on him/her.  The most successful, smartest, efficient, profitable, well-adjusted groups are those that cherish each other.

    Mal-adjusted people are everywhere.  Associates——hear me now——leave the maladjusted types for dead.

88. Posted by Happy Inhouse - 1 year, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 50 minutes ago

    Has anyone done the math?  When I started in the early 80s the starting salaries in D.C. were about $40K.  I am not sure the firms have done much re starting salaries other than keep up with inflation.  And by the way we had all of the exact same issues back then re life style, too many hours, high cost of eduction etc.  The key for all of your youngbloods is to find people you like to work with at a firm that is doing interesting work.  If the people you are working with and for are not people who share your values you should move on. Life is too short!

89. Posted by USF09 - 1 year, 2 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 22 minutes ago

    I find all the back and forth here very interesting.  I will be graduating from a non-Ivy school soon and have nearly $200k in loans (includes putting myself through undergrad).  I had a career before law school and so I can sympathize with what the more experienced people are saying; my classmates can sometimes exhibit an astoundingly over-developed sense of entitlement.  However, I think treating associates poorly as some sort of rite-of-passage or simply due to resentment over salaries is a lose-lose situation.  For every handful of useless, whining first-years at big firms, there will be a few loyal, hard-working new lawyers like me who not only have to pay our bills, but seem required to prove that we’re not illiterate simply because we didn’t come from creme-de-la-creme law schools.

    How can we meet somewhere in the middle?

90. Posted by Congressional Staffer - 1 year, 2 weeks, 5 days, 17 hours, 37 minutes ago

    Is it possible that some associates just get bored doing BigLaw? I never wanted to do the traditional law career path because I looked at it and thought ‘wow, how incredibly boring.‘ Perhaps other people had the same thought. I get paid crud, but I can honestly say that my job is never, ever boring, slow or pointless.

    And before anyone says that I went the Capitol Hill route because I couldn’t handle the work load, I work hours that make my friends at the big firms blink.

91. Posted by rosy - 1 year, 2 weeks, 4 days, 18 hours, 22 minutes ago

    There is hope yet that the Gen Y ers will change the staid and archaic law firm culture.  You go “Y” ers!

92. Posted by TJ - 1 year, 2 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 44 minutes ago

    Who knows if anyone is even reading this blog anymore, but I must tell Hopeful 1L that I think you will go far and be very successful because you understand the value of hard work, understand what real hard work is, and appreciate what you have and what you are working towards.  Congrats, you get it.

    To Here Here - you’re a dope that knows zero about business.  If you bring in $0.01 more than you make, you are a money loser and worthles to the firm.  I love all the “math majors” here that simply subtract their salary from what they bill out and think the partners keep the rest.  I guess we’re all lucky you’re not managing our stock portfolios, because you have forgotten many many variables - the cost of your health benefits, salaries of non-billers (secretaries, mailroom staff, cleaning, office services) and their benefits, rent/mortgage, utilities (heat, electricity), marketing, office supplies, and, most importantly,  malpractice insurance (which some of you will certainly be utilizing I fear).

    Many also don’t seem to understand that the partners, not you, bring in the work.  So maybe you should stop trying to bite the hand off the person that feeds.