Will $144K Become the Norm for BigLaw Associate Starting Pay?

B. McLeod
Mar 10, 2009 6:20 AM CST

Years late, and still grossly excessive.  Try $60,000, or better yet, let applicants bid salary they will accept.  (I’ve said this about half a dozen times,and it makes basic sense, but the firms have to wait for a “consultant” to say it).

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McGuireWhat
Mar 10, 2009 7:45 AM CST

“you start to get morale problems.”  I’m thinking you might already have morale problems

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CrescentAtty
Mar 10, 2009 8:46 AM CST

I don’t feel bad for these people.  I have almost $200k in student loans and make less than $90k at a mid-sized firm (about $60k after taxes).  Add that to the fact that I live in New Orleans (with a ridiculously high cost of living, especially for insurance) and student loan payments that eat up half my income…you won’t be seeing any sympathy from me.

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3L
Mar 10, 2009 9:18 AM CST

I would have gladly accepted a pay cut as an incoming associate rather than what I got.  Delayed start date for a year.

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RP - 1L
Mar 10, 2009 9:43 AM CST

I would LOVE to make even 80k when I graduate not going to a big firm. No wonder they are going upside down! And as #7 said, tis better to have a job then a delayed start or worse, no job at all. On the upside, they could hire 2 associates for 70k each instead of 1 person for 140k, and guess what - we’re still useless for a couple years upon being hired. I’d just be grateful in this economy for a job that allowed me to repay my student loans. (Maybe 100k for those Manhattan folks who have the crazy NYC cost of living).

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steve
Mar 10, 2009 10:00 AM CST

“Everyone knows that attorneys fresh out of law school are essentially useless for the first year and possibly the second.”

That is BS - I know first and second year lawyers who have already drafted more PPM’s and Series A documents than 4th or 5th year lawyers and can hold their own on a phone conference call debating terms with the other sides counsel.

It all depends on how they mentor you at the firm and what they allow you to work on.

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Steve
Mar 10, 2009 12:18 PM CST

What editor approved this headline?

It continues to feed the legal community’s growing view that the ABA thinks BigLaw is the only practice that exists.

And it feeds the public’s perception that 6 figure starting salaries are the norm for law school graduates.

Nex time, title it “will $144K Become the Norm for BigLaw Associates?” or such.

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tom
Mar 10, 2009 12:34 PM CST

ABA = Big Law

You didn’t know that.

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Proletarian
Mar 10, 2009 1:17 PM CST

So why are the censors blocking my posts?  Don’t like my not parroting the Big Firm party line?

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Anon
Mar 10, 2009 1:40 PM CST

The issue isn’t first year salaries. With inflation, they are basically at the same levels (approximately $10K higher) that they were in the 80s and 90s. The main problem is ATTRITION. The biglaw model is based upon up to 20-30% of associates leaving a firm within 3 years. In a recession, the attrition rate plunges to near zero (where it remains now). The layoffs we are seeing have little to do with the $160K; they are based upon a frozen attrition rate. If salaries remained at $145K, we would still be seeing similar cuts in staff. Biglaw became bloated during the boom times of 2000-2007; it now has to correct itself.

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steve
Mar 11, 2009 11:47 AM CST

small town laywers are just jealous they don’t qaulify to work at Big Law.

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To Anon:
Mar 11, 2009 3:58 PM CST

Anon, you and all of the other top tier grads must learn that you don’t “deserve” such salaries. As a perfect example of how such erroneous thinking plays out in real life, I’m sure all those who have been recently laid off from BigLaw feel they “deserve” such a high salary as well. All those laid off former BigLaw associates feel the “deserve” a new job at such a salary. Guess what? No one is hiring right now. You only “deserve” what the market is willing to pay. Up until recently, the market has been willing to pay the salary you feel you “deserve.” However, several law firms couldn’t sustain such salaries. Market forces are now working to bring salaries downward. Sorry… That’s what you “deserve.”

P.S. to steve: BigLaw associates who have been laid off are jealous that my firm has not laid off any associates. And I can spell “qualify.” Get over yourself.

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jason
Mar 13, 2009 4:30 AM CST

I’m a small-law guy and to 21 and 22—I’m busy.  No lay-offs here, I walk 9 feet from my car to my office (and I’m buying the building) after my 1/2 mile, 3 minute commute.  I make plenty of money and take time out for exercise and playtime.  Life is good and a headline that says “731 Lawyers and Staff Laid Off…” or “Partner Ouster Double or Triple…” or something about a pay cut at a big firm just really doesn’t worry me.

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steve
Mar 13, 2009 6:07 AM CST

#23 - I havent been laid off yet but if I have, I can wait it out 6 months on the beach in the carribean and still be making more than you.

Let’s see $175,000 for 4 years.  You $70,000 for 4 years at a small firm.  I can afford a 6 month vacation until the market rebounds.  Big Law on my resume will always get me a job.

Even though Big Law is laid off, if they are smart, they have a rainy day fund.  Most of us knew this was coming and we are prepared.

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shazie
Mar 13, 2009 6:17 AM CST

First years will be incredibly grateful that they have jobs—period.  I bet you could pay them whatever you want.  And it would boost morale for everyone else at the firm to know that management’s doing something responsible.

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B. McLeod
Mar 13, 2009 6:39 AM CST

@ 22, the first day firms have enough sense to require applicants to bid salary competitively, you will see what your just-out-of-school “top legal talent” is worth.  Demanding more when you aren’t really any better is the road to your own unemployment.  Then, you can sit around with your castaway colleagues, ruefully gazing upon your large loan balances and talking up your law school grades.  Maybe one of your “small law” colleagues will give you $1 for a sandwich and another $1 to pay down your loan balance.

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Janet
Mar 13, 2009 7:04 AM CST

Twelve years ago I got laid off from a small firm in the last recession and hung out my own shingle.  Solo for 8.5 years, and then I hired my first associate.  I have to tell you, when you are the person trying to make payroll every two weeks and keep the doors open, the $53K I pay the associate seems like a king’s ransom.  On the plus side, he works every day with clients directly, and I’ve trained him to the point where he handles his own cases after 3.5 years.  At 40 hours a week.  Creating jobs and managing a firm is way harder than it looks.

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government lawyer
Mar 13, 2009 7:45 AM CST

Hilary, I agree with you.  I have worked as an attorney for the government my entire career.  I went to a top tier law school, but decided that I personally did not want the pressure of having to track billable hours or the pressure of wondering if they think I am good enough to be partner. 
All lawyers can’t work for Big Law Firms and quite frankly it has absolutely nothing to do with qualifications.  Let’s be real, we all know the dumb lawyer who went to Harvard, the dumb lawyer who went to Yale, etc.  We also know the extremely bright attorney who went to a state school.  We all make different choices, based on what we value in life.  For me it was being able to have a life after 6pm and on weekends. 

To answer the persons question who asked Hilary about her possessions—well I own a 3000 square foot home (big enough for me and my husband and 2 dogs).  I own a Lexus SUV and an Infinit G35 (blue with a moonroof, navigation, etc.).  Suits—not that many (brand: Anne Klein, DKNY)—(1) because I don’t have to wear them to work everyday and (2) because I’m not really all that much into name brands in general—never have been.
What’s my salary as a gov’t attorney—$120K (I’m a GS-15) and hope to become an SES within the next 5 years.  What was my starting salary out of law school—$40K a year (but I was happy to be able to go to court everyday and litigate cases—I was a state prosecutor). 
What’s crazy is that (despite my law school loans - which yes I agree we need a bailout for), my lifestyle is extremely comfortable and happy.  Would I like to make more money?  Well if someone offered it to me, I would take it.  But do I need more money…in the grand schemes of things no.  I think America has become obessed with this idea that “bigger is better.”  Yet, we seem to be the least happiest people.

So do I think these Big Law firms should pay these ridiculous salaries?  Well yes and no.  Why yes?  Because the reality is that up until this economic crisis (and quite frankly they still are) firms were making billions (heck, if not trillions of dollars).  Partners probably making close to a million (not sure—I don’t really ask people their salary, but if a 1st year makes $150K, I assume some partners make 10 times that much).  So why should the partners of the firm reap the rewards of the hard work of the staff and the staff not benefit?  That doesn’t seem fair.  I compare it to these basketball and football teams where the owners make trillions of dollars, so why shouldn’t the players make millions?  I mean they are the ones actually playing the game.
OK - so why no?  Because of what is exactly happening right now.  When there is an economic downturn, people lose their jobs, homes, possessions, etc.  I am happy for the person who said he/she knew this was coming, so they saved for a rainy day and can afford to not work for the next 6 months.  Chances are most people didnt.  People tend to live just at or above their means, no matter how much money they make.  Also, what happens after you have exhausted the next 6 months?  Are you prepared to be unemployed for the next 3 years??? Because that’s a real possibility.  And somehow I expect once these firms see that they can actually get away with paying associates and partners less - that will in fact become the norm.  I think this crisis is teaching Americans a lesson (or should be) and moving forward business will operate a tad more cautiously (including firms).

In general I feel bad for anyone who loses a job, but it does become hard to be sympathetic for a first year associate who makes more than me, and is no where near being as qualified as I am.  As a GS-15, I’m qualified to manage an entire section of a federal agency.  There are very few 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th year law students who can do that (there are some where law is a second career who probably could).  Nonetheless, I don’t begrudge the 1st year who makes more than me because they are at a Big Firm—because again, I made the choice to work for the government with a lower pay where my hours are set, the benefits are good and I have time for a social life.

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in-house in the NYC area
Mar 13, 2009 7:58 AM CST

I have a great deal of respect for small business owners like Janet. And I can relate somewhat to feeling like you’re paying a king’s ransom to make payroll. Except here in the NYC area, it’s our babysitter who watches our 2 children for 55 hours a week whom we pay $50K/yr. While I am the first to acknowledge how hard and important her job is, I’m sitting here feeling ill thinking about how we pay someone with basically no education about the same salary as some people who have the same education that I do. I guess it really is all about location location location. But it still doesn’t seem quite fair. (and btw, this was a genuine comment, so all you snarky commenters, please save the snark).

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sam
Mar 13, 2009 8:34 AM CST

government laywer - or do you mean we have to pay the taxes because obama’s goons, cheats, felon friends refuse to pay theirs.

the reason democrates like raising taxes is because they dont pay them

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JFD
Mar 13, 2009 8:46 AM CST

It’s the same rationale as Wall Street for paying huge bonuses to execs of failed or failing financial institutions.
The Firms have to do it to attract the best. How in the world will the Big Firms attract the top talent by payinng first years JUST 144K in this environment ?? (Tongue firmly planted in cheek).

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government lawyer
Mar 13, 2009 9:02 AM CST

sam—I wonder who Madoff voted for???  I’m willing to bet he is very much a Republican!!!  Or what about all those other folks the SES has hammered down on—yep, my money would be on Republican!
It’s hilarious that people want to attack “Obama’s” folks, question: have they yet done anything as bad at George W. Bushe’s “goons, cheats, felon freinds”???  Let’s be realistic…Republican or Democrat, Minority or Non-Minority, Female or Male…the majority of cheats and felons are America’s wealthy—that’s how they manage to stay wealthy.
How much do you think Secretaries at the Big Firms make???  I have a friend who is a legal secretary who made more than me the first 5 years I was out of law school…wait - she doesn’t even have a bachelor’s degree!
There are a lot of overpaid people out in the workforce (government and private industry)...However, government attorneys, government doctors, government nurses, government engineers, government PhD’s (i.e., ANY professional government employee—someone who more than likely had to finance an education) is not one of them.

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Steve
Mar 13, 2009 9:27 AM CST

After 6 months of my rainy day fun is gone, I will rely on government to pay my bills just like everyone else does.  The government will lower my mortgage payment, the government will give me unemployment for a longer period of time, and I will collect government assistance in every way I can.  I have no problems milking government for every dollar I can.  If they want hand it out, I will take it. 

p.s. the moving to India idea is a good one.  There is a lot of money to be made in the emerging markets setting up monapolies in various industry sectors.

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bac59447
Mar 13, 2009 9:42 AM CST

Interesting thread.  Within the space of a few posts divisions between big and small town lawyers, between government and private practice lawyers and even between those who may have voted for President Obama and those who did not have opened up like so many festering sores.  Envy, disdain, contempt—in short very little compassion or constructive criticism.  I’ve certainly been guilty of my share of snarky comments on this board but it seems this economic downturn has really put some people at each other’s throats.  I wonder if a few non-lawyers are reading this thread and cheering on the internecine warfare.  I fear that many of our colleagues in businesses and law see what happens in big law firms and they paint us all with that brush and that as a result, not knowing that most of us are NOT making princely salaries, simply wish a pox on all our houses.  In short, I wonder how much these last 10 years have damaged the profession.

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government lawyer
Mar 13, 2009 9:55 AM CST

sam - the only person who has their head up their ass is you.  Perhaps if you could read, you would see I said “if I had to bet,” which cleary means that I did not know the answer.  Thus, if your statement was - you lose the bet - that would be fair…clearly, my statement made it clear I had not done any research (and didnt care too, because the bottom line is that wealthy in this country benefit from the most government subsidy - they just don’t call it that, because American’s prefer to associate subsidy with welfare, instead of tax breaks.) 
More importantly - I also said, when it comes to stealing and being a goon—party line, ethnicity and gender are irrelevant factors.  So you need to not only take your head out of your ass—you also need to wash out your filthy mouth and actually read what someone says before you respond.

Steve—the only way the gov’t is going to lower your mortgage payment (and its actually not the government doing it—but ok) is if you are behind and facing foreclosure.  None of those programs are actaully benefiting any of us who have been fortunate enough to not fall behind.  Unemployment—hmm, not sure you would be a candidate: Your 6 month rainy day fund might screw you.  But let’s assume you do qualify, do you know how much you will get a month?  I don’t recall the exact figure—but let’s just say its not enough to pay rent on a one bedroom apartment (if you live at home with your parents or someone else is paying the rent, I suppose its enough to eat 3 basic meals for a few days of the month).  Government assistance—I presume you mean, medicaid and foodstamps…I suspect you will tire of having to go down to the office full of crying children having to prove you have been looking for a job.  Those of us who have never had to get government assitance assume its this glorified process…one, its not and two, it takes a certain mindset to not care what people think of you as you sit on your but collecting “assistance.”  I suspect you are not that type of person—which is a good thing.  People like us (those who are willing to work for a living) don’t like the idea of of having to report to anyone - we see it as humiliating and degrading.  People who have been on assitance for years, not only are they not humiliated they can’t conceive of living any other way.

Perhaps you should reconsider that trip to Islands while you ride out the stash you have.  Lower your expenses, put your loans in deferrment/forebearance and try and extend your 6 months slush fund to 12 months…hopefully, by then you can find another gig - even if it doesn’t pay what you have become accustomed to.

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