Careers
Law Grads Waiting for Jobs Worry About Insurance, Job Competition
Posted Mar 24, 2009 7:59 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
Law grads whose start dates have been delayed or their offers withdrawn face more than just uncertainty.
Their worries include insurance coverage, school loan payments, competition for jobs and a more difficult path to partnership, the National Law Journal reports.
Elijah Watkins, a third-year student at the University of Illinois College of Law, is among the worried. His start date at Latham & Watkins has been delayed from September to December.
"I'm in a different situation than many of my classmates," Watkins told the National Law Journal. "I have a wife and a child. For me, insurance and health benefits are an important issue."
Some law firms are delaying start dates by only a month or two, while others have longer waiting periods, the story says. For example, Orick, Herrington & Sutcliffe has delayed start dates for half of its new associates until January 2010, and the dates for the other half until March 2010. Morgan, Lewis & Bockius has pushed back start dates for an entire year, but is paying new associates up to $60,000 to work at public interest organizations. The firm hasn’t decided whether to offer health insurance to delayed associates.
Firms that have rescinded job offers include Luce, Forward, Hamilton & Scripps, which withdrew offers for all of its incoming associates, and Lowenstein Sandler, which withdrew offers made to three of 18 incoming associates, according to the story.
One student grappling with a withdrawn job offer is Dan Vause, a Northwestern University law grad. He had already signed a lease and moved to California when he was informed of the rescinded offer, the story says. He got only a $5,000 stipend to help him move home.
"Basically, I've lost a year," Vause told the legal newspaper. “Soon I'm going to be competing with current 3Ls for jobs, and I don't have much to show for the past year."
"I've done all the things I was supposed to do to get a good job, and nothing has turned out the way I anticipated it would."
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Comments
B. McLeod
Mar 24, 2009 8:56 AM CST
All of law practice is that way. You take your best shot, do what are thought to be “all the right things,” and then, whatever happens happens.
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IU3L
Mar 24, 2009 9:55 AM CST
I would gladly take a delayed start date at a big firm over my current situation of no job offers…
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Anonymous
Mar 24, 2009 10:33 AM CST
This article ignores the plight of the 90% of law graduates who are graduating with NO job whatsoever. I would kill to have a biglaw ljob lined up for January. Temporary document review used to provide law graduates with a safety net. Ever since the ABA gave a green light to biglaw to allow the outsourcing of this work to India that safety net has been removed. Expect to see a lot more law graduates on food stamps and public assistance in the coming years. I really hope recent graduates can get together and commence a class action against the ABA and the law schools for fraudulent post-graduation career reporting.
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Recent grad
Mar 24, 2009 1:35 PM CST
Agree with # 3 and #2. Unfortunately, now we have to deal with outsourcing and compete with laid-off attorneys and soon-to-be grads who previously would not have considered working at small firms that are not Biglaw.
I have no interest in working at a Biglaw firm…but now people from better schools than mine are going to fight for those jobs out of desperation even though all they want is to work in Biglaw. Unfair.
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Anon
Mar 24, 2009 2:38 PM CST
It’s a little bit insulting that Mr. Watkins considers his situation more difficult than his classmates’, because he “has a wife and child.” Indeed, I would venture that whatever arrangement made it possible for Mr. Watkins to be a full time student for three years in spite of his familial responsibilities will probably kick in to support him while he’s waiting for his job to begin, delayed start-date notwithstanding. His classmates with no safety net - and without the possibility of another adult in the household who might bring in a salary - are in a far more dire situation.
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JN
Mar 24, 2009 4:06 PM CST
I wonder what the float/delay period is for post-graduate career reporting for most law schools. A higher level of transparency in the reporting of a law school’s post-graduation employment statistics is required.
Kids, just a quick reminder, unless you’ve got a sure-fire method for getting your foot in the door (and I’m not talking about grades) at a law firm then rethink the law school option. This isn’t college. Remember the nerd in your classes that always knew the answer? You know, old helium hand? Yeah, now your classes are FULL of them. Enjoy. Treat your liver well.
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Recent Grad in 08 and still no job
Mar 24, 2009 4:10 PM CST
I agree with #5, why is this guy’s situation worse than others without a wife and kid? His statement is insulting. I am a new grad without a job, with no wife, no insurance, and no kids but I am still stressed. Get over yourself!
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Are you tools or just heartless?
Mar 24, 2009 5:54 PM CST
It’s easier to get by as a single person compared to a guy who has a wife and kid to support. Only you cold-blooded pirahnas can’t recognize this fact. Unbelievable. Only a lawyer grad can say this kinda statement. When you have a wife and kid to support you’ll wish you took your words back It’s comments like the above that make me glad that some of you heartless lawyers aren’t working..
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With or Without Kids You're Both Doomed
Mar 25, 2009 5:57 AM CST
I’m convinced I’ll be disbarred. I have had perfect credit my whole life. Then I had a death in the family. Lenders started seeking repayment on my student loans (without any friendly reminders when those loans would go into repayment). Even with interest-only payments, $220,000 of debt on no income doesn’t last long. Thanks to everyone in the legal profession and my career office that predicted I would find a job easily upon graduation. You were wrong. Thanks to everyone who lied to me about the American dream my grandparents pursued by coming here and saying “hard work will take you places.” You were wrong: I’ve worked 80 hour weeks in a big firm, and that did nothing. I was a senior editor on my school’s law review. That did nothing. I went to a prestigious T14-like law school. That did nothing. I’ve found no work for over a year, and even temporary agencies lack work in most major cities on the East Coast. So what the hell is everyone else supposed to do that isn’t from a T14 law school, did not work at a big firm, did not have law review or moot court experience? Those 90%? I can’t even afford to go to CLE courses (yes, I am aware there are a few free in some states, but those are few and far between).
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fedworker
Mar 25, 2009 6:07 AM CST
For a law-related job, consider being a Federal government contracting officer. Pay starts low (GS-5 or GS-7), but there is a rapid promotion career ladder in the first few years. Health insurance too. The government is way short on the number of contracting officers it should have. Here’s a website: http://www.fai.gov/FAIC/Default.asp
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No Pity for Law Grads with a Spouse and Family; Yo
Mar 25, 2009 6:33 AM CST
#9, Why would you borrow $220,000? What were you thinking? #8, Also, I don’t have kids and I am not married but things are still tough and just because one has a wife and a kid doesn’t make their plight worse than mine. Hell, this guy may be considered reckless. He knew he had a wife and kid and took the law school plungle anyway despite the grim employment stats. Its survival of the fittest and I would not turn down a job so a person with a spouse and a kid could have the job. The law market today isn’t a fairy tale and I am not Prince Charming.
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Ronnie
Mar 25, 2009 7:17 AM CST
#9, okay I didn’t take out $220k, but I did have a total of $205k when I graduated, with no job, and failed the bar the first time. What did you do with the money from the 80 hour weeks in a big firm?? I went to #14 school, and I temped for a year, except for the 3 months when I couldn’t find any work. I took a forbearance. I took economic hardship. I went on a modified repayment system. I worked a retail job to make ends meet. I have never missed one loan payment in the 4 years I’ve been out of school, so pardon us if we don’t cry for you. Sitting around whining doesn’t get anywhere in this profession. It aggravates me to no end to hear people blaming everyone else for their problems. Sheesh!
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Jade
Mar 25, 2009 7:24 AM CST
geez all the guy said is “I’m in a different situation than others… I have a wife and kid…” is that not a “different” situation? he is supposed to be the provider and kids are expensive. of course it’s going to cost more to support 3 than to support 1. simple math. Why is that insulting again?
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Jade
Mar 25, 2009 7:27 AM CST
and the guy with wife and kid didn’t even say his situation was “worse” than others, yet people put words in his mouth… good grief. although I would say he’s probably worse off because your decisions have to be different when you’re not just thinking about yourself. he might not be able to uproot and leave the state, move in with a friend, etc. the way some of us with no kids or spouse might when times get hard. what’s the problem?
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Jason
Mar 25, 2009 7:30 AM CST
Our law clerk said that over 50% of last years class (2nd tier school) still has not found jobs yet. I can’t even imagine.
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Ryan
Mar 25, 2009 7:46 AM CST
How about you quit whining and hang out your shingle? Learn bankruptcy and grind those out until something else comes along.
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goverment lawyer
Mar 25, 2009 7:58 AM CST
1 - Yes, the government will be hiring COTR’s (contracting officers) in high numbers. Some of the positions, will not start as low as a GS-7 if you have some kind of experience with contracts. Most of the positions promote up to a GS-14 and you don’t have to be a supervisor….when the market picks back up, you may even have a foot in the door at BigLaw in a Government Contract practice because you were a COTR in the federal government.
2 - while I don’t have kids, I do think someone with a wife (even if she works) and a kid to support feels a different kind of stress. It’s easy to say well my situation is just as bad—but the reality is that your perspective changes when you are responsible for other people. Further, I imagine when he started law school (3 or 4 years ago depending on if he went full time), the market was not this bad and I don’t think anyone—especially BigLaw—predicted it would come to this (if they had they would have started taking preventive measures years ago).
3 - Life is what happens when you are making plans. Nothing in life is guaranteed and I think the problem is that too many Americans have gone through life assuming that all you have to do is X and your results will be Y. The point now is to learn to adapt and weather a storm. Learn to do with less. Student loans: put the in either forbearance…it’s not like they can take something from you that you don’t have.
4 - Those of you with the T14 law school and law clerk experience, yada, yada, yada—imagine the plight of the law grad (MOST LAW GRADS) who didn’t go to T14’s or were on law review…heck, they deserve to eat too. Chances are you will have a leg up for the few jobs that are still out there. The problem is you haven’t got pass this notion of what you deserve—so you refuse to look outside the BigFirm arena to find out what else is out there.
5 - Good luck to all of those looking for employment—it’s just not recent grads, but there are some seasoned attorneys out of work too…it’s times like this that I am happy that despite my top tier law degree, BigFirm was never what I wanted—the pay SIGNIFICANTLY lower, but the long term benefits of quality of life and job security a great reward.
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larry
Mar 25, 2009 8:55 AM CST
Obama has promised a good paying job to eveyrone who will join a union. Hang in there. CHange is coming.
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CJ
Mar 25, 2009 9:20 AM CST
Borrowing 200k+ is INSANE. You’re not likely to pay it back absent a big firm job. I borrowed 55k, went to a large state school and lived at home. Even this amount of debt is driving me nuts and I hope to have it payed off quickly.
To the job seekers, keep your head up, the job market will eventually get better (it won’t be from Obama, but rather from natural economic cycles).
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#9
Mar 25, 2009 10:26 AM CST
I wasn’t asking anyone to cry for me. I was asking you to cry for everyone else: I know I’m going to be a successful in whatever I do (attorney or not). That being said, I feel extremely sorry for those who are in even worse financial situations. I was the first to attend college in my family. There are some people out there without families for support. There are some out there who, like the person in this article, have a small child. Instead, I was pointing to the economic reality that faces a large portion of recent graduates entering our profession. If we don’t come up with some innovate solution in our state bar associations (e.g., economic hardship deferral for mandatory CLE credits; leniency towards candidates who make good-faith efforts to secure payment on educational debt [what everyone once referred to as the “best investment you can ever make”]), we’re going to be unfairly punishing those from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds (be it race, color, sex, disability or social standing).
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akg
Mar 25, 2009 10:29 AM CST
I went to a “Tier 3” law school, worked hard, won moot court competitions and will be doing a judicial clerkship. Get off your butts, stop whining and get a job,already.
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Don
Mar 25, 2009 11:01 AM CST
My first thought is, I’m glad I’m not in law school or recently graduated right now. Things were bad enough when I graduated 15 years ago.
Having said that, things are not hopeless. I didn’t have a job when I got out of law school, either. So I hung out a shingle. Now, I don’t recommend this - knowing the law is one thing, knowing how to practice it successfully is something else. Starting out solo can be a rough road - and if you’re like me, you’ll learn a lot of things the hard way before the lessons start sinking in. Still, being self-employed has its rewards (and I’m hoping to return to it eventually, now that I’m a little older and a lot wiser - the chance to be your own boss is really one of the biggest perks of having a law degree).
Gotta say, I enjoy these comment sections - some of my colleagues are truly amazing individuals.
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mld
Mar 25, 2009 1:15 PM CST
What the difference really between $205k, $210k, or $220K in student loans? I graduated 15 years ago and my loans are paid (owed 45k for undergrad and law school) but I can’t fathom being this indebted with s/l’s. My mortgage is $249k.
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fedworker
Mar 25, 2009 1:18 PM CST
On the contracting officer thread - there is a difference between a Contracting Officer (CO) and a Contracting Officers Technical Representative (COTR). The website I gave is for hiring COs. The COTR and COR (Contracting Officer’s Representative) are a contract administrator function, often a program manager. I’m not sure the website leads to COTR/COR positions. I have worked for years with attorneys who are CO’s and/or in contract policy management, at the GS-14/15/SES level.
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j
Mar 25, 2009 1:44 PM CST
I am so glad I decided not to go to law school and continue working as a paralegal. In a year, I will have all of my debt paid off and will be able to do whatever I want! Most people don’t realize very few become big-time attorneys making lots of money…most make about what I make (with a heaping amount of debt) and spend days drafting discovery or covering depos. The attorney that sits in the office next to me just got laid off after being here for 17 years.
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md
Mar 25, 2009 2:19 PM CST
Not all firms are looking for the people that usually work in biglaw firms. I recently changed from being an associate in a private practice to an in-house position. My old firm was interviewing to replace me when I left and had several people apply and interview that would normally go to big law firms. They decided not to hire any of these individuals because they knew these individuals were not really interested in being there and if they got a chance they would leave. They hired someone that would fit in the mold they they were looking for before the job crunch. So, keep you heads up. The market goes in cicular and will rebound.
As to the married person, some of the first comments about his statement are shocking. Don’t put words into the man’s mouth. And, yes, for anyone that meets the “reasonable person” standard would realize that it is different for someone with a family than individuals without, like other have pointed out.
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bg
Mar 25, 2009 11:10 PM CST
I find it amusing that small firms are equated with the Eighth Circle of Hell. Since when did the only meaningful job in this profession have to come from BigLaw? At a small firm, you actually get to BE an attorney, rather than a glorified paralegal. In fact, I did the same work as a first or second year BigLaw associate during my first career as a paralegal.
And it would be greatly appreciated if people would stop whining about how they were lied to about salaries and employment statistics. First, the world has changed and the economy is effecting hiring, which it was not when you started law school three years ago. Second, did you not research this field at all before you started down the primrose path? Do you blindly believe the pretty, slick advertising material stuck in your face? Did you not do ANY research of your own or did you base your future salary on what you saw on tv for tv lawyers? Had you spent twenty minutes doing a little research of job listings and sites like this, you would have discovered that very few have a silverspoon shoved into their mouth upon graduation. So the only person that lied to you was yourself when you failed to do a little research or add up the cost of your degree. Now get over it! Everyone before you had big loans, small salaries, and blah schools, and some even graduated when the economy was bad, yet we managed to survive. Things don’t always go your way in this profession. Better you lean that lesson now.
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FE
Mar 27, 2009 6:07 AM CST
# 19 my compliments for your comments. I agree 100 % ” keep your heads up” things will definitely improve no doubt naturally. Situation of a law student with wife and a kid is definitely not the same compared to the one who is single. 220K student loan INSANE!
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BC
Mar 27, 2009 6:44 AM CST
# 25 - Kudos to you for having the foresight to not go to law school and rack up a ton of debt. Hind sight is always 20/20 though. The rest of the readers of this article did go to law school. They have a lot of debt (or at least a sizeable portion of them do), and a lot of us are in a bad place right now, either without a job, worried about layoffs, or struggling to find business. I don’t think that anyone needs to hear about how you are “so glad you did not go to law school.” You didn’t, we did, it was a choice we made that we can’t undo.
To everyone else, it is a bad situation out there right now. I think all we can do is keep our heads held high, and do the best we can do.
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RJ
Mar 27, 2009 8:14 AM CST
I graduated top 10% from a good law school and have an ivy-league undergraduate education. Not a single job offer for me either. (I will soon be trying a solo practice.) I really do feel for all the law grads right now. Everyone cannot land a big-firm job after their first year in law school (or clerkship after 2L year) and right now there don’t seem to be many options for the rest of us out there. Every job posting I do see wants experience… Can’t get experience without a job.
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BL
Mar 27, 2009 8:17 AM CST
#21 - Judicial clerkships just aren’t the easiest thing to come by. Props to you for getting one—that’s really great, but don’t forget that there are lots more people who applied for your job and didn’t get it who are equally qualified. I went to a tier 2 law school - graduated #2, did moot court, mock trial, and law review, and was still rejected from a clerkship position. It’s not because I was lazy and didn’t apply. You should be grateful for your position.
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Brad
Mar 27, 2009 8:19 AM CST
It isnt the end of the world. I went 10 months unemployed until I even heard of doc review. I had to move 300 miles just to do that. I did doc review 8 months, and we all got laid off. I was lucky and I landed a job, mostly at the expense of others who were laid off, so it is bittersweet.
The legal community has sucked for 90% of us for 4 years now, since I pretty much started law school. Quit whining and join the club with your comrades
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Aaron
Mar 27, 2009 10:50 AM CST
Cry Babies!!! Times are relatively tough, but we live in an unfathomably prosperous world right now, and there’s no shame in honest work. Get a job, stock shelves, flip burgers, write insurance, do SOMETHING!!! Stop whining, and take some RESPONSIBILITY for your choices. You presume to be smart enough that someone might pay you $200-500 per hour to THINK about and SOLVE their problems, yet you all pretend to be helpless victims of CSO bamboozling. Perhaps you’re not that talented in the first place. Learn to do some thing that valuable to someone else, and DO IT!!! Do you need someone to draw you a diagram???
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NR
Mar 27, 2009 11:37 AM CST
#33—I’ve applied to several non-law jobs but was turned down for being overqualified. No one wants to hire me because they think I’ll make a run for it at the first opportunity. Its not as simple as you make it out to be.
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Andy the Lawyer
Mar 27, 2009 11:46 AM CST
Don Vause should have sued. California’s Labor Code allows for the recovery of double damages to out-of-staters wrongfully induced to relocate there based on false job offers. I suspect his actual damages considerably exceeded $5000.
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nikki
Mar 27, 2009 11:54 AM CST
“I’ve done all the things I was supposed to do to get a good job, and nothing has turned out the way I anticipated it would.”
This really truly sucks for him and I hate that it would happen to anyone. But what about the more common experience: no job offer in sight?
Furthermore, looking outside the profession for a moment, my parents, friends, & relatives have been saying that for DECADES but nobody saw that as injustice. In fact, the response tends to be that the world doesn’t owe us anything and we needed to “work harder” and “pull ourselves up by our bootstraps” A fine idea…..
….presuming you have boots.
sheesh.
The power of privilege
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OR 07 admittee
Mar 27, 2009 12:15 PM CST
I was looking for steady work for about a year after I passed the bar. While I got by through temp work and a non-profit short-term fellowship, I didn’t get a steady job until I looked outside fields of law that I was interested in. To recent grads still looking, I suggest not wasting time, volunteer for legal aid organizations and other nonprofits! It will keep your skills active and boost networking contacts, which might lead to a job. Plus, volunteering and working for people with bigger problems than mine helped me to put my job search into perspective. (I wasn’t getting evicted from a slum or beaten by an abusive partner. As the Yiddish story goes,it could always be worse.)
In regards to the guy in the article with the wife and kid. . . Of course his situation is “different”, BUT what I think people were reacting to, and what caused me to bristle (especially) as a woman lawyer, was the implication that he was “responsible” for his wife. Assuming that she is a fully capable adult, she’s responsible for herself (and half of the kiddo), and just as capable of finding work. (Heck, she might have a better job situation, since she didn’t spend the last 3 years in school and was instead building seniority.) While having a child is a different situation, people who live on a single income or are looking for a job (many of whom have children, as well) are not going to be sympathetic to someone who has a working spouse and good job starting in a few months.
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Bill
Mar 27, 2009 12:18 PM CST
“He got only a $5,000 stipend to help him move home.”
The use of the word “only” in this sentence is the ABA in a nutshell.
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Andy the Lawyer
Mar 27, 2009 4:31 PM CST
Bill—got a houseful of furniture? Have you priced moving expenses lately? Add to that temporary housing before and after the move-in and move-out, any lost rent deposits ot decline in value in a home bought in reliance on the job, lost wages and benefits even mitigated by new employment at lower compensation, and $5000 is a drop in the bucket.
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Philip
Mar 27, 2009 5:53 PM CST
May I offer a suggestion: The reserve components of the Armed Forces are always looking for JAGs. If accepted you would be paid $400 or more for a weekend drill; be able to buy cut-rate health insurance, life insurance and dental insurance; able to shop in the commissary and PX. In addition your reserve unit will likely be populated by folks who are really good contacts. For some branches no prior service is required. In my unit, I wrote fitness reports on a congressman, a bankruptcy trustee, a college professor and a Court of Appeals judge, among others. I made some life-long friends whom I can call for help any time and they will help. In addition, there are temporary full-time slots which pop up and pay at full active-duty pay rates which are pretty fair these days. You also are performing an important role by bringing your private law experience to a military setting.
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val
Mar 28, 2009 3:38 AM CST
agree w/ #33—what a bunch of whiners… if you are all so smart get out and do something… hang a shingle or go into another business… working at a law firm sucks anyways.
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B. McLeod
Mar 28, 2009 6:52 AM CST
Philip is giving good information. I would only add, JAG ordinarily is always looking, but even their demand is not infinite. If you wait too long, even the military will have no room at the inn.
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tom
Mar 28, 2009 7:11 AM CST
#25, you are still just a paralegal. Paralegals klll me hollering we can do what attorneys do or we do the work of attorney. Whatever you are still a paralegal and being a paralegal will have have the same status of being an attorney. Nurses do the same with physicians. Each has a role but clearly doctors and lawyers are well respected and high esteemed professions for a reason. I haven’t heard the same for being a paralegal which isn’t a profession its a ocupation.
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MBA
Mar 28, 2009 7:17 AM CST
There are too many law schools turning out too many graduates. This is problem and as one person remarked if you have 150,000k you can obtain a law degree from some law school. The proliferation of law schools (California and fourth tier; online) is the problem.
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Stone
Mar 28, 2009 10:12 AM CST
There are NO JOBS out there to find, ask most ‘06 - Present grads. Your best bet is to CREATE A JOB. If you can’t do that, you’re basically screwed and yea, you’re gonna hate life for a good while.
Not everyone is lucky.
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Philip
Mar 28, 2009 2:10 PM CST
A postscript to my #44 post: #45 says “create a job” and I will tell you it can be done even now.
Most states have “appointed” lists for criminal, juveniles, incompetents, guardians. For those who can write a brief, they have appointed appellate lists. Rural areas are still good areas for lawyers - with the internet to “back you up” on forms and research you can go head to head with the big guys now, which couldn’t be done 20 years back. My bar association offers membership (about 200 a year) includes free legal research and even forms online. The appellate decisions are available free to everyone.
This being said, you have to move to where the clients are - farmers, small business, banks, saw mill workers. Hardly anybody wants to sign an hourly contract but they don’t care if you are well paid so long as the problem is solved. Find a town under 5,000 people with just one lawyer and spend a few days there; and check out the court appointed lists at the local state and federal courthouses.
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Happy-go-lucky
Mar 28, 2009 5:17 PM CST
I’m sensing a lot of tension with the postings under this article. Is there something going on that I’m not aware of?
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Laidback
Mar 28, 2009 5:20 PM CST
I’m with “Happy-go-lucky:” it’s Saturday…you ain’t got no job…you ain’t got ***t to do. Don’t know why everybody be stressin’ and all that…
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Hopeless Romantic
Mar 28, 2009 8:28 PM CST
Obama…Obama…Obama! Hang in there guys and gals, pretty soon we’ll all be saved and you won’t actually have to work for anything!
I’d be curious to know how many people who have written complaints on this site also voted for their own continued demise without actually realizing it. Jobless? Spend some time studying the current debate. Maybe we can all emerge with a better understanding for the interplay between law, business, economics, and society. You might just be surprised about what you learn if you open your mind to consider the possibilities. Good luck.
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