Pro Bono
Situations Wanted: Laid-Off Lawyers Seek Volunteer Work—and Get Rejected
Posted Mar 16, 2009 7:42 AM CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss
Updated: Jeremy Dyme was a fourth-year associate who found himself out of a job when his New York law firm dissolved at the end of the year. Now he’s finding that even volunteer work in his targeted field is difficult to secure.
Dyme is looking for a volunteer position in the field of economic development and microfinance, with hopes of parlaying his pro bono experience into a new job in the field, the New York Times reports. He has little expertise in microfinance, and that could be hindering the pro bono search.
“After at least half a dozen offers to volunteer, both solicited and unsolicited, I have had one phone interview,” Dyme told the Times. “It’s funny to go from being grossly overpaid as a law firm associate to trying to market myself for a position to work for free.”
Dyme’s predicament highlights the difficulties of volunteering for nonprofit groups that are stretched thin and unable to provide enough opportunities, according to the Times. The story doesn’t give the name of Dyme’s prior law firm, but online profiles identify it as Thacher Proffitt & Wood.
Dyme isn’t alone. Many large law firms are offering stipends to associates who agree to defer their start dates and work for public interest groups. But the firms are finding that there are limits on the number of available volunteer positions, the National Law Journal (sub. req.) reports.
Owen Pell, partner and chairman of the recruiting committee at White & Case, outlined the problems in an interview with the NLJ.
"For a lot of these organizations, from what I hear, they are all very enthusiastic. They would love to have more hands," Pell said. "The question for them is how many people can they truly supervise and do they actually have desks for them to sit at.” White & Case is seeking to place 90 associates whose start dates have been deferred.
The story also cites a “fairness issue”: Many of the big-firm stipends start at $60,000 a year, about the same as the salary paid to many senior lawyers at public interest law firms in a city like San Francisco.
The Times mentioned another problem with volunteers who once held high-profile jobs: a “you’re lucky to get me free” attitude.
Besides White & Case, these law firms are seeking to place deferred first-year associates in volunteer positions, according to the NLJ: Morgan, Lewis & Bockius; Latham & Watkins; Simpson Thacher & Bartlett; and Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman and Foley Hoag are also making a stipend-for-pro-bono offer to laid-off lawyers who give up severance pay.
One of the lawyers taking advantage of that offer is Dave Dineen, who agreed to work for Greater Boston Legal Services after he was laid off at Foley Hoag, CNN reports. His firm is paying him about a quarter of his former salary.
Dineen represents low-income clients facing foreclosure. "This gave me a chance to do something different with my legal career, and help out people who generally don't have access to public service," Dineen told CNN.
Updated at 11:10 a.m. to include information from the CNN story.
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Comments
Anon
Mar 16, 2009 8:49 AM CST
This was exactly the situation in 2002. I’d spent years volunteering before my long-time Fortune 100 employer imploded, but it was next to impossible to find a place to work substantial hours for free. Eventually, after months of looking, I did, but I was never particularly well utilized there. Non-profits are simply not geared up to accept volunteer lawyers.
B. McLeod
Mar 16, 2009 12:37 PM CST
I like this Dyme. He calls it like it is.
public interest lawyer
Mar 16, 2009 3:18 PM CST
Non-profits love pro bono and volunteer lawyers WHO KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING. You can’t expect a non-profit to spend 3 months training an M&A associate to do foreclosure defense when that associate will just jump ship back to Biglaw in a year. At the same time, Biglaw refugees who think they’ll just easily ride out the recession at legal services are taking jobs away from lawyers and recent grads who ACTUALLY WANT A CAREER in public interest work.
Jake
Mar 16, 2009 10:29 PM CST
Couldn’t agree with #3 more. Honestly though from my experience the non-profits see right through this.
B. McLeod
Mar 16, 2009 11:50 PM CST
I wonder how many of the castaways will ever be able to return to what is left of Big Law. They will be the untouchables—the unpleasant reminders of Big Law’s confrontation with its own mediocrity and with harsh reality. Their names will not be spoken among the “associates,” nor will the generations know them, or call them blessed.
sue
Mar 17, 2009 10:53 AM CST
Maybe if Obama would stop approving paying bonuses to execs at AIG and other ivy league elitist friends there would be more jobs.
I am sick of Obama. He is hurting our economy.
Joseph
Mar 17, 2009 11:42 AM CST
Obama didn’t approve any bonuses at AIG. AIG was CONTRACTURALLY obligated to pay those bonuses becasue that is what those execs signed up for when they were hired. Failure to do so is a breach of contract.
Obama’s problem and the problem of bigger idiots like Dodd and Frank in Congress is that they’ll spend twice as much as the bonuses debating and trying to pass laws to “punish” these execs for daring to take the money they’re owed.
Whether you agree with the bonuses or not, it sickens me that Obama and his democratic cohorts are focused more on AIG’s bonus structure than on what happened at Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac under their watch during the Clinton (yes I said Clinton and not Bush) years. That company looted taxpayers for 700 BILLION dollars not 140 million. Those execs for doing the bidding of certain democratic members of congress (Frank, Dodd, etc although not Obama, he wasn’t there yet) were paid fair more than any exec at AIG.
Madoff’s going to jail, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are just a corrupt, but they’re still free and all the while they want people focused on things like torture, AIG bonuses, and individual foreclosures so you won’t look at the individual member’s of Congress’ shady dealings.
to #5 Sue, I’m sick of Obama too, and while he’ll make things worse with his spending, his real crime is failing to address what actually put us in this mess as doing so would harm his party.
J.D.
Mar 17, 2009 3:34 PM CST
Government always makes things worse. And it’s the only sector seeing growth right now. The future does not look bright.
Abigail Cerra
Mar 20, 2009 6:27 AM CST
There is more to the situation than this article presents. Yes, many public interest agencies are short-handed, but that is not why they are turning away some of these volunteers. Public interest agencies look to experience in community advocacy and dedication to the cause when choosing volunteers and staff attorneys. If Dyme’s resume did not reflect a commitment to public service, then it is not surprising he could not find volunteer work. And why should he? Public interest law is not a default for out of work firm lawyers: it is a career in and of itself. I wouldn’t dream of walking into an M/A position with a big firm. Dyme shouldn’t expect to walk into a public interest position, either.
sympathetic but realistic
Mar 20, 2009 7:02 AM CST
#9 is exactly right - while some young associates may be interested in using this as an opportunity to jump ship from BigLaw now that they (hopefully) have some of their loans paid off and may have a firm financially backing the decision to go to PI, there are too many people who went to law school TO GO INTO public interest and are dedicated public servants. While I sympathize with those laid off looking for anything, having met some people at these firms, I would not be surprised if many were quickly found to not have the attitude, personality, or human empathy needed for public interest. It’s just not an easy jump.
AMO
Mar 20, 2009 7:05 AM CST
One difficulty nonprofits and legal aid organizations face is that volunteers only want the most stimulating, interesting project or case work, leaving the routine (read: boring) work for the staff. Legal aid and other organizations welcome trained, enthusiastic volunteers willing to do their bread-and-butter work. Any laid-off lawyer willing to take on routine cases (as well as the non-legal work that crops up in these organizations) will have no problem finding work as a volunteer.
Lara
Mar 20, 2009 7:22 AM CST
#9 and #10 hit the nail on the head. I have worked at a total of 4 public interest summer jobs/school year internship and a legal clinic during law school. I have worked my butt off to get to know the way that public interest organizations function and to deal with the special issues faced by impoverished populations. To have a person who has only worked at Big, Bigger and Biggest their whole career (including summers) show up and take an entry level job from me would be ridiculous.
Hopefully this experience will help overpaid law firm lawyers realize that they should be giving more money to the public interest organizations in their area. Maybe then, they could afford to take staff away from their work to train these people when they volunteer.
stilllookingforpiwork
Mar 20, 2009 7:24 AM CST
I don’t think the firms thought this through. They figured everyone would be thrilled to take on their castoffs. Resources are already stretched thin at these organizations, they don’t have them to take on even a “free” lawyer who expects someone else to fax something or file documents at the courthouse for them.
Mac Steele
Mar 20, 2009 7:31 AM CST
The Safe Horizon Mediation Program is training lots of attorneys (some laid off, some working) in mediation skills. This is a great way to expand your practice and do some pro-bono work. If you want more information about the trainings, contacat Mac Steele at 718-834-6671 Ext. 12 or MediationTraining@safehorizon.org
john
Mar 20, 2009 7:40 AM CST
Just an idea- have the accociate donate money to the particular non-profit they wish to work for and that money will be used to pay the associate. I’m a freakin genius
Disappointed Professional
Mar 20, 2009 8:13 AM CST
I realize many public interest lawyers work above and beyond the call of duty. But I am disturbed by the consensus reached by #3, 9, 10, and 12. What has our profession become? Where is the tradition of teaching under the journeyman model? Where is the delight in mentoring? Where is the passion for assisting young attorneys (or, in this case, attorneys facing extreme economic hardship) through the ropes? Perhaps there is more to this than is being discussed. But I find it difficult to justify saying “no’ to free help. It sounds like a great disservice to the clients you are working so diligently to serve.
kateehudson
Mar 20, 2009 8:30 AM CST
How about the fact that the nonprofits don’t consider these castoffs qualified for the position? Corporate litigation is a completely different game than the nuts and bolts of everyday nonprofit lawyering. Even if Dyme is a 4th year associate with BigLaw, doesn’t mean he’s qualified to represent a low-income client in a dispossessory or a child custody matter. Sorry, just cause you got paid those bucks doesn’t mean you’re qualified worth a damn.
Retiredbutlooking
Mar 20, 2009 8:59 AM CST
All this is focused on young/lateral lawyers. there are ALSO many senior lawyers who would like to volunteer/contribute their expertise to nonprofit. And they won’t be going back to BigLaw. This is a HUGE resource that is UNUTILIZED. Nonprofit lawyers are apparently just protecting their “turf” when they should be welcoming all the help they can get—-many who volunteer now will continue for years and you never know. Any experienced lawyer can “gear up” to a new specialty quickly—-this discussion about specialization in nonprofit work is largely smokescreen for territoriality!! It shows the WRONG attitude; nonprofits would be better off not acting like Biglaw!
Hans Blix
Mar 20, 2009 9:26 AM CST
#18 is dead on. I’m constantly told by the various bar associations I belong to of the “great unmet legal needs of the poor and disadvantaged”. Now that there’s a surfeit of legal talent with available time looking to put their legal skills to use these people are told essentially “sorry, that great unmet need we keep harping about to get you guys to donate money to us” will stay that way.
youcan'thavemyjob,corppig
Mar 20, 2009 9:28 AM CST
We are getting ransacked with firms begging to place their associates at my nonprofit. but there’s one little problem: the budget at my nonprofit has been slashed and now lots of us att’ys are fearing layoffs/have been laid off. So we have taken a stance with management: No volunteers without guarantees that our jobs won’t be jeapordized.
Alex
Mar 20, 2009 9:43 AM CST
Non profits don’t have the time or the desire to train snooty rich laid off big law associates who don’t want to be there in the first place.
AJ
Mar 20, 2009 9:49 AM CST
I don’t think Dyme’s lack of nonprofit or public interest work should necessarily hinder him from working in microfinance, if that’s what he’s really interested in. Microfinance rests on the same principles as many traditional financial institutions and a good understanding of finance and business law could be very beneficial to practicing in that area. If I were hiring on behalf of a MFI, I would rather hire someone who had an interest in the area and the prerequisite skills, rather than someone who had worked in public service, but in an unrelated area. Unfortunately, the article does not specify which area Dyme practiced in. I don’t think it is his lack of public interest work holding him back, but rather a lack of expertise in related areas of law.
reality check
Mar 20, 2009 10:34 AM CST
While I commend Mr. Dyme and others for seeking to volunteer, it is important to bear in mind that volunteers are not free. Public interest organziations are facing the same economic crunch as law firms and as a result of drops in funding are laying off employees and cutting where possible. Many of the costs associated with paid employees, including training and overhead, are applicable to volunteers. Organizations are struggling to maintain the capacity to manage the current volunteer base, let alone an influx of new volunteers. Without addressing the underlying capacity to manage the volunteers, we can’t realistically expect these organizations to take in every laid off or deffered start attorney.
R
Mar 20, 2009 10:55 AM CST
#6 sue: Would you and your fellow hidebound trolls give it a freaking REST already? Obama this, Obama that… Doesn’t matter what the story is about, you’re dang well gonna write in with some tired dittohead lie about Obama.
You’re like the people who still have “W” bumper stickers on the back of their cars. You lost. Get over it. Get a life.
Joseph
Mar 20, 2009 11:59 AM CST
to #24, how about you give it a rest “R”. LIbs moaned for 8 years about how horrible W was. Now that your guy is in office you want the opposition to just shut up and bow down to the messiah. Newsflash, it doesn’t work that way.
People who are actually educated about how the economy works see right through Obama’s BS and can trace the problems back to Clinton. Bush’s biggest mistake was he didn’t confront the problems Barney Frank and Chris Dodd caused head on and allowed them to continue their corrupt relationship with Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.
Gregory Nojeim
Mar 20, 2009 4:00 PM CST
Does the ABA facilitate matches btwn volunteer attorneys and volunteer opportunities? Is there something in place already?
For example, my non-profit organization, the Center for Democracy & Technology (www.cdt.org) is interested in taking on 1-3 volunteer attorneys in its DC or San Francisco offices. Attorneys with experience or training in Internet law and technology issues are of particular interest. Attorneys who would like to volunteer can contact our office manager, Portia Wentze-Danley (portia@cdt.org.)
Does anyone know of a clearinghouse for such opportunities?
steve
Mar 21, 2009 8:57 AM CST
Obama lied and gave his friends at AIG million dollar bonuses
now non profits don’t have any money to pay volunteers because obama gave all the stiimulus money to his elitist friends.
attorney
Mar 21, 2009 10:05 AM CST
I love how washed out and leaderless Republicans pull Obama into everything despite him having been in office for a few short months. Its cold outside and its Obama’s fault.
Past legal aid volunterr
Mar 21, 2009 10:53 AM CST
You know, law students who can’t find paying gigs often flock to legal aid for summer positions. It is not unusual for such organizations to be at capacity and turn away temporary help. That is what happened to me when I was a law student looking for a summer position in legal aid in 2004. It is not a new thing meant to punish out-of-work corporate attorneys. Legal aid can’t be expected to suddenly absorb Big Law refugees without any additional resources to train them, house, them, and committment that they will stay.
B. McLeod
Mar 21, 2009 8:48 PM CST
If volunteer groups are full up, Uncle Sam would still like to see you. However, enlistment opportunities aren’t going to last forever either. If you wait too long, the hungry thousands in line ahead of you will fill the quotas.
sue
Mar 22, 2009 3:39 PM CST
Dodd admitted last week that the Obama administration was the one that demanded that the provisions allowing the AIG bonus be put in the bill.
All this BS is just a cover up by Obama to hide the fact that he tried to buy off his rich country club friends for winning him the white house.
Maybe if Obama didn’t give all this money to his drinking buddies there would be some left over for the rest of us.
K. Murray
Mar 22, 2009 5:39 PM CST
I’m retired. I’ve learned a whole new area of the law - pro bono asylum representation. You can do it. Lots of organizations will want you. No one will type, file, research or translate for you but you can learn. The researches online and through public interest and human rights organizations are tremendous.
AndytheLawyer
Mar 23, 2009 9:24 AM CST
Sue: Your pathologically reflexive attacks on Obama for everything from personal approval of AIG bonuses (of which there is no evidence whatever) prove that you’re too dumb to qualify for stimulus money.
Sue Ellen Wortzel
Mar 23, 2009 2:39 PM CST
I am a public school teacher who founded a small non profit to build school libraries in very rural/extremely poor parts of Nicaragua. We would happily entertain a free lawyer to help us build this organization. I have looked all over and get nothing but no! I am a hands-on learner and would invite any help! Thank you so much for those of you who do this, your work is really priceless to us. check out the site www.talica.org
Donor
Mar 25, 2009 9:34 AM CST
The “public interest” schadenfreude and turf-protecting is sickening. I donate as much as I can to legal aid-type organizations, but I will cut out any organization that doesn’t utilize some of this volunteer labor. I have better use for my money. The organizations I work with make a big effort to place pro bono cases - place them with these volunteers.
Advocate
Mar 26, 2009 1:10 PM CST
It is amusing that one would associate the emotion of schadenfreude with public interest folks. By definition, those that work in the public interest sector dedicate their careers to alleviating the pain and misfortune of others.
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