Careers
Was It Worth It? With Debt of Up to $250K, Some Law Grads Are Dubious
Posted Sep 4, 2009 12:20 PM CST
By Martha Neil
Zack Leshetz would like to get married and buy a home.
But his $175,000 in student loan debt is a significant roadblock, reports the Wall Street Journal in a lengthy article about the growing educational debtload being shouldered by young Americans.
Even though some of his loans are in forbearance, he is living paycheck to paycheck, the 30-year-old Fort Lauderdale, Fla., attorney tells the newspaper. Engaged since March, he is reluctant to schedule a wedding due to the cost.
"I feel like I'm putting my entire life on hold," he says.
And he's far from the only one wondering about the high cost of his apparent academic success.
Kristin Schlaud owes almost a quarter of a million dollars in educational debt after going on from college to earn a juris doctor degree from Wayne State University Law School and a master's degree in real estate from the John Marshall Law School.
"I know I have accomplished a lot, but I wonder if it was all worth it," the 28-year-old tells CNN.
A New York lawyer, Robert Applebaum has been rallying support on Facebook and an advocacy website, Forgive Student Loan Debt, for a proposal that the government should eliminate educational debt as part of an economic stimulus program, the news agency notes.
However, another attorney with a mere $90,000 or so in student debt says she believes her University of Pennsylvania law degree made it easier for her to get contract work as an attorney after being laid off from her job as a corporate associate at a law firm in Fairfax, Va.
Michelle Talbert was a mother of two children when she graduated from college at age 30, and she still believes she did the right thing by pursuing her education, reports USA Today.
"I'm really enthusiastic about not letting circumstances that could appear to be a hurdle stop you from achieving a dream," Talbert, who is now 39, tells the newspaper. "For me, my dream was to go to college and go to law school."
Related coverage:
ABAJournal.com: "NY Won’t Admit Would-Be Lawyer Due to $430K in Unpaid Student Loans"
ABAJournal.com: "Chicago Lawyer Makes $75,000, But Worries About Bankruptcy"
ABAJournal.com: "Law Grad, 32: Don’t Do What I Did"
ABAJournal.com: "ABA Should Publish Better Job Info for Naive Law Students, Prof Says"
- How B of A’s GC Got Fired: Leave Now, and Leave Your BlackBerry Behind
- Schools Ranked by 'Super Lawyers' Produced
- Law Firm Price Wars Break Out as Some Try ‘Loss Leader’ Bids for Work
- Five Questions for Law Firms Abandoning Lockstep Compensation
- Judge Jails 2 Attorneys for Contempt in 4 Days
- Reed Smith Will Ask Nonequity Partners to Pony Up Possibly 15% of Pay
- Court Deputy Ordered to Apologize or Face Jail After Taking Lawyer's Paperwork
- Skadden Jumps on the Bonus Bandwagon
- ABA Executive Director Resigns
- Nasty Attitude to Co-Worker, Naughty Word in E-Mail Cost 2 Their Jobs
Should Supreme Court Justices Be Able to Review News Accounts Before Publication?
Comments
Leaving quickly
Sep 4, 2009 12:33 PM CST
The US is the only modern western industrialized country that financacially cripples people trying to get an education. You have to ask whether it is worth living here anymore. The American dream is just that…..a dream.
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anonymous
Sep 4, 2009 12:57 PM CST
Debt is debt. The young people should be obligated to pay back what they borrowed.
What’s unfair is how the law schools are allowed to self-regulate. Have you seen some of the post-graduate employment statistics put out by these schools in the last year? It’s crazy. Puffery is one thing, outright fraud is another. It’s time for 3rd party, independent collection and analysis of career statistics.
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zed is alive
Sep 4, 2009 1:09 PM CST
most law school grads from the past 2 years cannot find legal work that pays enough to pay their bills. Why? Supply and demand. THe law schools and the NALP put out bogus job and salary data in order to induce more students to go to law school and sign up for those student loans to pay for tuition that pays for the luxurious lifestyles of law school deans and administrators.
But now the bubble is apparent to all. It was a ponzi scheme all along, much like the mortgage derivatives scam that wall st pulled off.
Supply and demand. Too many lawyers for the available amount of work.
But when are the players in the law school ponzi scheme going to be made to do the perp walk?
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This is Ridiculous
Sep 4, 2009 1:14 PM CST
This is absolutely insane, having to borrow so much money to “get ahead”. Yet most of us aren’t “getting ahead” we’re being held back! Where are the “great paying jobs” our “valuable degrees” were said to get us? Family in Europe got a better education than I did here for next to nothing! These student loan companies are preying on young people who were told their whole lives that in order to succeed in life they must go to college! WHY ARE WE BEING PUNISHED FOR BEING BETTER PEOPLE? Some people’s loan balances are doubling or tripling due to interest - because there are no jobs or there are low paying jobs that will hardly pay the bills, let alone student loans! This issue needs to be addressed! It needs to be addressed because at the rate tuition is rising, no one will be able to afford to go to college. There go our future lawyers, doctors, artists, teachers, engineers! Where will that leave us as a society?
I encourage everyone concerned about student loans destroying their lives or their kids’ lives to join Mr. Applebaum on Facebook and make your voice heard.
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Joe
Sep 4, 2009 1:23 PM CST
Anyone who is 250K in debt is STUPID AND DUMB. You chose to go to private schools, you chose to take living expense loans. I can go to a state 4 year college and law school for 50k.
I have no pity for people with loans. People who have that high of loans are most likely not worth hiring. If they can’t mamange their debt, how they going to manage the practice of law.
High student loans = red flag = do not hire the loser
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Doctor Gonzo
Sep 4, 2009 1:25 PM CST
Although I understand the drive to forgive school debt, wouldn’t that distort the field of law even more from an economic point of view? Already there are too many lawyers chasing too few jobs that pay well. If we give people the expectation that their school debt will be forgiven, that would just make even more people enter law school and drive up supply even more.
It’s also a fairness issue. I paid off my undergrad student loans early by paying more than I needed to. I also said no to law school due to the debt. Why should we reward people who made poorer economic decisions than I did? Where’s my reward for being responsible? I am still a renter so I have no home that was foreclosed on so I can get help, I would never by a new car so I can’t get any “cash for clunkers” help…when does it end? And I’m not even against helping these people out, I just want some recognition for doing the right thing.
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Gregg
Sep 4, 2009 1:28 PM CST
If you can you should leave the US now and go to a Eurpoean country. Heck I have seen stories in the UK about students complaining about their average debt level when leaving university being only $20,000!!! Most of us would kill to have that debt level.
In other European countries university is free and they even give money towards living expenses as well.
One thing I should point out is that in Europe Professors do not make nearly as much money as they do in the States. That is why there has been a big Prof brain drain to the US. Your loans are paying for exorbitant salaries of Profs and “adminsitrators” in the US.
people need to re-think whether a universoty degree is a worthwhile investment. if you want security in my town of Boston, just joing the BPD or Fire Dept or State Police. Their unions are killing us with lavish pay, perks and pension benefits….while the cubical drone with a Masters degree is making $42k and will never retire.
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Average Joann
Sep 4, 2009 1:41 PM CST
I actually considered law school and am very glad I did not go. If only I did the same for undergrad - as it hasn’t paid off anyway - I’d be in a MUCH better position now and would own a home already. I wish I didn’t buy into all the hype about college, it’s not at all what it’s cracked up to be. For me, in the end, it’s a very costly wall decoration.
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Buh Bye
Sep 4, 2009 2:02 PM CST
The US is not worth living in anymore unless you come from a wealthy family. The middle class has been killed…..even people that try and do the right thing get raped fiancially. Period.
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J.D.
Sep 4, 2009 2:14 PM CST
“High student loans = red flag = do not hire the loser”
For those confused why most white people oppose affirmative action and other hand-outs, listen up. I imagine that middle-class white folk are disproportionately overrepresented in the population with massive debt. Wealthy white people got into schools because daddy made a phone call, and their debt is nothing to worry about because daddy will pay it off and get them a high-paying job anyhow. On the other ends of the spectrum, many minority students have been given massive scholarships in an effort to balance out the benefits acquired by the wealthy white class.
But where does that leave the unconnected white person from a middle class background? They cannot apply for the hundreds of race-based scholarships, and they can’t rely on their parents.
Consequently, I believe the statement quoted above is inaccurate. High loans generally mean “middle-class white person who is probably the first in their family to go to law school.”
“you should leave the US now and go to a Eurpoean country”
The myth that the Euros have everything better is only persuasive in the short run. Sure, it’d be great for an American to traipse over to the E.U. and take advantage of low tuition. However, that American would be doing it on the back of millions of Europeans who have put great percentages of their paychecks into the system. In other words, the newly-arrived American is truly exploiting a system they’ve never paid into.
The same might be said of #4’s parents. As Europeans, they certainly paid SOME high taxes into the system, and then received a low-cost education. BUT, it appears they fled to the U.S. soon after which means they never really paid their fair share. The Europeans the left behind will ultimately pick up the tab for that costly education as they fork over 65% of their paycheck to the government.
Education is not “free” in Europe. Taxes are high, and everyone pays for it—even those not going to college. Would liberals stateside support taxing poor people so that I can lower my tuition rates? I think not.
This country focuses on the individual. You do what you want with your life, your money, your mind. That’s called liberty, and it’s sorely lacking throughout the world.
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abe
Sep 4, 2009 2:20 PM CST
why does this article cite the example of a UPenn grad as someone that is happy with her JD? That is an elite degree. Top 10 percent of all law schools. Why not cite example of middle of the road law schools?
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anonymous
Sep 4, 2009 2:28 PM CST
I graduated from a tier 2 school several years ago. I have been unemployed for several months now, and I have to tell you that student loans are the least of my problems. I am worried about rent and feeding myself.
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B. McLeod
Sep 4, 2009 4:52 PM CST
As I have sometimes remarked in the past, youth is a great blessing, and one which in later life, one can never recover. Clearly, $250,000 sounds like a lot of debt. When I was in high school, I recall one of my vocational education teachers mentioning then that $250,000 was what the average person would earn in an entire working lifespan. I would never have borrowed $250,000 for college and law school, simply because I was raised to not borrow money I did not have a current means to repay (there are some associated Scottish superstitions). However, if I had borrowed such a sum (and this is the important point for my young, debt-ridden colleagues), I would have come out okay. Quite a few years ago, in fact. If I had the choice today to be a lawyer in my 20s (or even 30s) again, with the condition that I would have a $250,000 debt to amortize, I would certainly take that deal. It seems daunting, I know, but you have time, and you have your youth, and both are on your side. With perseverance, you can come out alright. It is a matter of having some faith, and of not giving up.
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HBC
Sep 4, 2009 9:35 PM CST
You can’t accumulate $250K of debt going to law school. No law school is that expensive. $250K is a total figure for all higher education (if it is a even a true story to begin with). Moreover, anyone with that much debt never worked during the summer, or part time during the school year, and had to have lived way beyond his means while in school. There are no lessons to be learned from such a person, or judgments to be made about loan forgiveness based on such a case. This kind of hyperbole for effect story is just another public relations move designed to influence legislation, not news. What ever made the media in this country so stupid?
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tw
Sep 4, 2009 10:27 PM CST
It is amazing to see some of the posts here that say people are stupid for taking out such loans and that you can’t have 250k in loans. I’m a bit out of my league here in that I’m in the medical profession, but the average student in my graduating class had at least 250k student loan debt. I would argue that this is by far commonplace in the medical fields and you would be hardpressed to find and for that matter get into a school that was appreciably cheaper.
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Mladen Vukmir
Sep 5, 2009 3:45 AM CST
I did my postgrad in IP in the US where I came from former Yugoslavia in 1989. The tuition was around 12K for the three semesters squeezed into 12 months at Pierce Law. Living expenses in Concord, NH were around 10-15K (second hand car included). These cost were high from the Yugoslav income perspective. They are not that high from the modern day Croatian perspective. I think now of it as an excellent investment. One of the biggest bonuses is actually changing a country while getting education. Priceless. Do come over to Europe to study for the sake of it. I went on to found what is now one of the bigger practices in the country. As an employer I somehow empathize with those who are pointing above to the idea that a “better” law school in ranking would somehow be many fold better that those with lower ranking. Much of it is in students’ attitudes which are individual and might be analogous at any law school. I would be suspect to those who are trying to buy that kind of goodwill from a top ranked school and have no guts to save money and research which of the cheaper schools would provide them with the set of knowledge and overall learning experience that would jointly be similar, equal or superior to the top ranked schools.
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Schills
Sep 5, 2009 6:31 AM CST
McLeod I would agree with you but for the fact the prospects for employment are horrid.
Read what the UPenn grad said. She is happy that now out of work with loads of debt she can temp. Hopeful she is doing substantive work. If not she is fooling herself.
Given educational debt expenses, people would be better off getting an AA in Accounting and making $15 an hour than pursing a law degree. From there work your way through your BS in Accountancy and become a CPA, CIA or CPP and do well for yourself without going into massive amounts of debt.
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anonymous
Sep 5, 2009 9:45 AM CST
McLeod open your eyes. Take a private tier 2 law school like Brooklyn Law School. Tuition is now over 40K a year. Living costs easily surpass 20K a year. Half the incoming class receive NO need based grants whatsoever. Mulitply that by three and add in bar exam costs and accrued interest and you are easily in the 250K neighborhood just for law school. Good luck putting a dent in that when you aren’t allowed to work 1L, and with the rinky dink law clerk positions that pay $10 an hour during the school year. Anyone who attends a private law school these days is a fool. They are merely cash cows designed to enrich a small group of overpaid administrators.
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Liz
Sep 5, 2009 12:50 PM CST
The interest, fees, and penalties imposed by private loan servicers are the problem. These loans are covered by the government. The student, however, receives no protection whatsoever. The debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy. There are no requirements for grace periods. The servicers are taking tax dollars and turning it into lower opportunities for the hardest working, most motivated members of our society. How do you think that is going to work out, long term? It’s stupid. And acting like students were just running up credit card debt when they borrowed the cost of the education, and then were subjected to fees and penalties, is even more ridiculous.
This isn’t a debt issue. It’s a tax issue: our tax dollars are funding this mess. The school’s won’t take responsibility to lower tuition, even in the face of total collapse for legal hiring. The lenders are raking in profits. What’s left?
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B. McLeod
Sep 5, 2009 2:39 PM CST
I think nameless poster @18 must be reacting to HBC’s post, not to mine. I do not doubt that there are students graduating with these six-figure debts. My point is that most students are going to have a 35 or 40-year working life to amortize these loans. It is true, as #17 points out, that the market right now is difficult, but that will not last forever. The students who have these debts (and for whom, this actually is a matter of debt, not taxes) should be able in most cases to get them paid eventually. If I had incurred a $250,000 debt for school, I would by now have been able to repay it several times over, and, absent unforeseen injury or illness, I should still be able to practice another twenty years if I needed to. The key is for graduates to press on, and avoid panic. Remember, you can move a mountain with a spoon, if you have enough time.
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HBC
Sep 5, 2009 7:41 PM CST
Anonymous at 18 - do the math again. Even at $60K a year, law school debt comes to $180K. Bar fees, including a prep course, come to about $5K in the most expensive jurisdiction. Three years of interest on the money, assuming no subsidized Stafford loans and all money borrowed from a private lender (an unrealistic assumption by the way), comes to about $20K. Where does your extra $45K come from, payments on the Lamborghini? And $60K a year is a realistic number only in New York City. While a few schools charge $40K or thereabouts for tuition, one can live on a lot less than $20K a year everywhere except New York, particularly since most law schools have subsidized housing (even in New York). And this all assumes that one doesn’t make money by working part time during the school year and full time during the summer, at a legal job or otherwise (work study pays about $15 an hour by the way, not $10). Law school is expensive no doubt, and many students come out with large debts, but jacking up the numbers dishonestly does not help make your case. Finally, whether it makes sense to attend a private law school depends almost completely on how one does in law school. For the best students it’s still a great deal, since they get jobs that more than repay their investment. It’s second tier grades, not private law schools, that law students need to fear, and avoid. Is that why you’re so worked up?
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john
Sep 6, 2009 8:01 AM CST
To #17 above, an accounting degree even an associate degree is better than a 7 year law degree, you can easily find a job and by the way, you need the masters in public accountancy to sit for the CPA exam in most states now.
I do not know why people keep wanting to get a law degree, maybe it is social status or something or the illusion of those high paying jobs. I like being a CPA sitting in my cubicle doing spreadsheets and looking at financial statements all day versus being an unemployed lawyer
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Joe
Sep 6, 2009 8:40 AM CST
How are we supposed to pay it back? Give up half our paycheck every month? No guarantees going to school. What if we don’t get what we paid for? Sucks to be us? That’s the end of it? Because we tried to set out sights higher and become something better than other loosers, we are compromised beyond what they are?
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anonymous
Sep 6, 2009 8:58 AM CST
21 - try again. 1 year of deferment on $200,000 of debt at 8% is $16,000 a year just in interest! If you earn a respectable salary of $50,000 a year, half your salary is merely going to interest payments on a student loan! That is completely outrageous.
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anonymous
Sep 6, 2009 9:04 AM CST
If you think a system in which hordes of young JD’s are so deeply indebted up to their eyeballs ,so much so that they can’t start families, pay for houses, and invest for their retirements, if you think that is a sustainable path of growth for our country, you need to have your head examined.
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Steve
Sep 6, 2009 11:14 AM CST
Apparently, there is no sympathy for law students who foolishly thought the ABA, LSAC, NALP, and the law schools would have true and accurate employment and salary stats.
Let’s look at it another way. Upon admittance, the bars scrutinize an applicants finances because of a belief that poor lawyers are more likely to overbill or steal from trust accounts. (Which I doubt.) But, nonetheless, if poor lawyers are indeed a threat to clients—this is a brewing storm of ethics and bad press.
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James
Sep 6, 2009 4:46 PM CST
At last people are starting to wake up. Lower ranked law schools are a bad investment. Soon we’ll see accurate and detailed employment statistics as a consumer protection measure and many of these schools will go out of business. Hopefully we’ll be seeing the end of failed T3/T4 schools and hopefully some of the most expensive T2 schools as well. Once the number of schools declines the profession will rebound and a law degree will again become an investment that students can making after knowing all the facts.
BTW there is an income based repayment plan available. However if you borrowed private loans they won’t qualify . But then again another good indicator that your law school was too expensive is the fact that you had to go to a private lender to borrow money.
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Susan
Sep 7, 2009 9:16 AM CST
Why do you have to go to a private school? You chose to pay double in fees? That’s your fault. If you can’t find a job, maybe you shouldn’t be a lawyer to begin with.
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Attorney
Sep 7, 2009 10:49 AM CST
Law school education is a card game, you gamble and you deal with the hand you are played. What you do to improve your the odds is up to you. A law degree does not guarantee anything anymore.
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SBL
Sep 7, 2009 11:47 AM CST
It feels great to know that after 3 years of law school at a T1, I will have as much debt as some of these people have after one. Blame law schools for their statistical hocus pocus if you want, but we’re all adults right? And purportedly highly educated ones at that, supposed to be inquisitive and capable weighing consequences and exercising our sound judgment, no? A simple google search these days ought to yield results sufficient to make any LS fence-sitters run screaming in the opposite direction, clinging to their philosophy and PoliSci diplomas.
$250,000 buys a house, a car, and a year’s worth of food in some parts of the country. Where in life did someone who borrows that kind of money without doing adequate research as to the return on their investment go wrong?
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James
Sep 7, 2009 12:54 PM CST
SBL hits the nail right on the head. However in this day and age we require lenders to make certain disclosures to consumers before they borrow certain amounts of money. In many situations we have stopped taking people’s “word for it” about income levels when applying for loans. The banks now have to verify income. This county has always engaged actions that basically protect people from themselves. Given that a private law school education at a T4 diploma mill can cost more than a person’s first home why not extend the same types of consumer protections and MANDATE that schools provide a prospectus stating, in detail, the employment prospects of their recent graduates going back say… 5 or 10 years. Deliberate misstatements in the prospectus, like the T4 grad who works at starbucks is employed in “business and industry,” would be actionable by disappointed graduates against the institutions to recover their tuition money.
I totally agree with SBL that people need to be responsible for their own choices, but when institutions including the ABA lie about the information that is out there or prevent a free flow of information, something more needs to be done.
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Liz
Sep 7, 2009 4:54 PM CST
“For the best students it’s still a great deal, since they get jobs that more than repay their investment. It’s second tier grades, not private law schools, that law students need to fear, and avoid. Is that why you’re so worked up?”
Um, the insult to the “bottom” 80 percent of the class is a little too snarky for my taste. Most people who pay these prices will not make top grades. That’s the whole point of curved grading.
The only other “investment” I’ve ever heard of that has similar numbers, is a by-in to a multi-level marketing scheme. This is getting ridiculous.
Years ago grads who were in the bottom half of the class could go into government, or small law firms. In these days of 40,000 people graduating from law school each and every spring, that just isn’t the case.
Times have changed, and the kind of attitude shown by the poster above is unnecessary and unhelpful.
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anna C
Sep 8, 2009 4:44 AM CST
one of my former law school classmates from the class of 06 committed suicide because she could not make her loan payments and had to move back in with her parents. No jobs and no paying clients.
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Brian H
Sep 8, 2009 8:36 AM CST
The problem has been for too long that there are too many law schools and particularly too many marginal law schools. On top of that, the law schools are in the business of making money (charging high tuition) and the marginal schools have pathetic records when it comes to their graduates finding desirable jobs after graduation.
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Esq.
Sep 8, 2009 8:45 AM CST
The amounts borrowed are only half the problem. The usurious interest, fees, penalties, and questionable collection practices of lenders should also be of great concern.
studentloanjustice.org
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Ian Z
Sep 8, 2009 8:46 AM CST
I agree that law school is too expensive and I also have lots of debt from school but I knew what to expect going into it. I am tired of people expecting to get high paying jobs right out of law school or expecting to earn “x amount” of money as a new associate. If you haven’t realized it yet, you aren’t worth anything right out of school. You will have to be trained and worked with regardless of where you go. I was smart enough to get tons of experience while in school and while I have more experience than most recent grads, I still know that I have a ways to go…..And another thing, I am tired of people complaining of not being able to find jobs in this market. If you did what you were supposed to do and marketed yourself and networked while in law school, you would be fine. People who expect their career development office to help them find jobs, regardless of where you went, are stupid. I graduated from a not-so-great school earlier this year and have had numerous interviews and offers (which people assume only were attainable by people from top ten schools) with Big Law firms and many more with smaller ones. I have recently decided to take a position with a smaller firm and practice primarily DUI and PI law because it is extremely interesting and complex work and I am well versed in the practice of both. People complaining about the job market haven’t done enough to help themselves.
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Volume
Sep 8, 2009 9:11 AM CST
I graduated from a private Chicago college in 1999 and a private Chicago law school in 2003. I racked up about $185k in debt. $40k from undergrad and about $140k during law school (which includes deferred interest & fees and high interest on private loans). I worked all throughout college and law school for living expenses.
I graduated in 2003 making $35,000 a year. I made $45k in 2004, $55 in 2005, $65 in 2006, $75 in 2007, $74 in 2008 and I will make about $75k this year.
in that time period I have aggressively paid down my debt from $185k down to about $123k. My minimum monthly payment has been reduced from $1087 per month to $547. Some of that is from reamortization of my loan and some is from interest rate resets to sub 3.0%.
Anyway, I pay an extra $2,000 a month towards my student loans each and every month. I split rent and food costs with my wife who makes a modest income of around $50k per year. My portion of rent is only $500 per month in a ‘vintage’ apartment. I drive a 2002 used car. I don’t have air conditioning in my apartment. I don’t even have cable television. I have no credit card debt or any debt whatsoever other than student loans.
On the other hand, I eat pretty much whatever I want; i paid for a small wedding, I’ve taken vacations and a honeymoons, I own a few nice things.
At the rate I’m going my student loans will be paid off before I’m 35. All $185k of it. It’s not easy; I’ve had to delay purchasing a home (Which in retrospect helped me avoid the housing bubble entirely!).
If you can get a job after graduation, and that’s a big IF, you must live frugally and as cheaply as possible and pay off your loans. In four and a half years I will be debt free. It’s been a tough journey requiring financial discipline. I’m a little past the half way point (in time not $ amount) towards paying off my loans and it’s been tough. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but I’m just happy to survive.
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Publicus
Sep 8, 2009 9:50 AM CST
The surplus of newly-minted attorneys on the job market has been a cold hard fact for a number of years now. No one can legitimately claim that they were blindsided by the lack of job prospects. You folks gambled that you’d be the exception - and you lost. You made an adult decision - now you have to live with the adult consequences. The sense of entitlement pouring forth from some of you people is sickening. Bluntly put, the American economy has no need for all you young lawyers - you’re surplus to needs and being surplus you have nothing to market. Do yourselves a favor - look outside the law. Become a teacher. Instead of betraying your class snobbery why don’t you sit for a police or fire exam - and see if you qualify. Even consider going into a trade - and, heaven forbid, work with your hands. There’s good money to be made there. Become a plumber - you’ll get that fishing cruiser in the Caribbean a lot quicker than you will with a law degree. You’ll have to work with shit - but, at least, it will be honest shit.
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Tim
Sep 8, 2009 9:54 AM CST
I got out as an undergrad and was making $65grand a year.
I did my research online and all factors showed the median STARTING salary for a NEW attorney in Chicago was $67grand.
Based on that, I figured going back to law school, was a fair investment with better expectations and potential of both career and salary growth later on.
WOW! WHAT A SHOCKER WHEN I GOT OUT OF LAW SCHOOL AND A GOOD JOB OFFER WAS $30,000 A YEAR!
Uh, almost double the education equates to less than half the salary I was making with an undergrad degree???
I think I am in bizarro land right now.
BIG MISTAKE!! I wound up accruing more debt for half the wage.
Although, I won’t commit suicide as the one story above cited, I would appreciate it if someone would please shoot me?
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Esq.
Sep 8, 2009 10:15 AM CST
@ Joe: Unless you’re from a state like Massachusetts that has no public law schools. Then you either pay private school tuition or you don’t attend law school.
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Esq.
Sep 8, 2009 10:42 AM CST
@ #10: “On the other ends of the spectrum, many minority students have been given massive scholarships in an effort to balance out the benefits acquired by the wealthy white class.”
I certainly don’t know any minorities who received a massive scholarship to attend law school. But I did have at least two white kids, whose fathers owned law firms, come up to me in law school, and expressed their belief that the minorities were going to school for free courtesy of Uncle Sam. They also expressed their belief that minorities would have no problem finding jobs because every firm was supposedly tripping over itself to hire minorities. Again, in my experience, this was FAR from the case.
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LawNow
Sep 8, 2009 11:00 AM CST
Borrow $250,000 to get a law degree? Are you serious? Hopefully, you catch some ambulances and some big 40% contingencies soon!!!
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J.D.
Sep 8, 2009 11:06 AM CST
Then you haven’t been paying attention, #41. Law schools these days have entire job fairs for “minorities only.” Schools are regularly advertising scholarships for “minorities only.”
I’m not making this up. So much for the dream of a colorblind society.
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lawyer now
Sep 8, 2009 12:09 PM CST
It is definitely a supply and demand market. People entering law school should know in advance that there are already too many lawyers in this country. There are more than 3 times the lawyers in the state of CA than in the entire nation of Japan. Same with Enlgand. People wanting to enter law to make money should think twice.
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greg
Sep 8, 2009 12:22 PM CST
#22 - I’m a CPA and a lawyer, and here’s my advice: don’t quit your day job. The market for CPAs is just as bad these days. I have backgrounds in two careers, and can’t get work in either.
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Esq.
Sep 8, 2009 12:57 PM CST
@#43: “Then you haven’t been paying attention, #41. Law schools these days have entire job fairs for “minorities only.”
These law firms attend diversity job fairs so they say they have a diversity effort. It does not mean they ever hire anyone who is a minority. A lot of these firms also throw ridiculously expensive wine and cheese diversity receptions just to say that they value diversity.
I agree that we would be better off with a colorblind society, in which people assume that there are advantages given to the minority. Those firms that do have a dedicated minority slot will never hire more than one minority. This means that in a class of 12, all minorities will compete for one seat, and everyone else gets a shot at the other 11.
There’s nothing worse than meeting with a law firm partner who can recite off the top of his head, and without pause, precisely how many minorities and/or LGBT associates work at his firm.
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Esq.
Sep 8, 2009 1:09 PM CST
To clarify the earlier e-mail, it’s bad enough to go through the same (or worse) job-search challenges as everyone else, and deal with the same debt loads without having people making erroneous assumptions that you had it easier than they did. We’re all in the morass called the legal profession together.
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Kristin
Sep 8, 2009 2:53 PM CST
Oh, J.D. only wants a color-blind society when it benefits him. As far his comment about why “most white middle class people hate affirmative action”?? Don’t lump me in with your broad brush.
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James
Sep 8, 2009 8:20 PM CST
I want my affirmative action. As the grandson of Irish immigrants and a Catholic (a group that has been discriminated against throughout America’s history) I want my preferences!!! I should get priority in college admissions, government contracts, and even hiring by private companies.
Sound stupid to anyone else?
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Smith
Sep 9, 2009 3:38 AM CST
The problem with affirjmative action is that it was originally intended for the working class mexican and the poor kids of american slaves but now hispanics from all over who are blonde and blue eyed who have always been upper class are taking these slots and then rich kenyans and nigerians and caribbean blacks are getting these slots.
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